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Basically the short answer would be that there is no good gas dump, ghosts are about as close as you're gonna get.
On some maps in some situations reapers have their utility vs toss in the late game, but that's usually once you've already got an advantage and just want some more intel/harass, and the numbers shouldn't be large enough to deplete a 3k gas bank...
Nukes are a nice option as well, but suffer from the same problem.
As far as people saying you're mining too much gas, usually you have the saturation to warrant getting the geysers, and you may have needed the extra gas income when you were having to rebuild medivacs and ghosts and vikings and upgrades and more production versus late game where you're basically just rebuilding a few bio units here and there that you lose during harassment or small trades, and the expensive (gas heavy) units tend to actually not be traded.
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Nukes. Use them. They're good. It costs nothing except attention span + multi-task to order 1 of your 10 late game ghosts to a location, shift click him out of your group, and holdfire + cloak and nuke harrass pylons/gateways/robos and nexus' as well.
Remember if you are going to drop a ghost somewhere, cloak it + hold fire it before you load it into the dropship and it will come out cloaked + on hold fire.
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TvP in general isn't really that gas heavy... assuming you've gotten all upgrades, I guess just don't get as many geysers as you expand. Just stay on four or so and add more as the old ones expire? I really don't know why Blizzard changed the ghost cost. 150 150 was a lot, but now I find myself not having enough minerals when I get ghosts more often than I don't have enough gas.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
On November 07 2011 18:54 theBOOCH wrote:
TvP in general isn't really that gas heavy... assuming you've gotten all upgrades, I guess just don't get as many geysers as you expand. Just stay on four or so and add more as the old ones expire? I really don't know why Blizzard changed the ghost cost. 150 150 was a lot, but now I find myself not having enough minerals when I get ghosts more often than I don't have enough gas.
yup that actually was a nerf for standard terran late game tvp.
a buff for some timings midgame and definitely a big buff for tvz. they probably also wanted to make ghosts work well with mech in tvp, but failed to succeed, mech remains a very rare strategy regardless.
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The correct answer is probably to just not mine gas you're not going to use, as has been stated by a number of people.
I'd like to see battlecruisers get a bit of use, but thats not happening unless you come into the game with a build that includes pumping air upgrades. There have already been a number of posts stating why you should not get into battlecruisers, but I'd like to look at the upside a bit. You can transition your viking infrastracture into a BC infastructure, and plan from the get-go to pump air upgrades. This would go well with a double-ups bio plan where you start pumping air attack as soon as you get your armory to unlock level 2 upgrades, this would happen prior to any scouting of colossus. Hopefully, such an emphasis on air upgrades will allow for two things: 1.) easier "front end" damaging of colossus, bringing them down before they can burn your bio to shreds and 2.) less risk of over committing into vikings as you're making more upgrades and numerically less vikings, as an added bonus they do a little more damage on the ground so if you've got some left over do a pseudo drop into a mineral line, vikings may blow against units that fight back, but the practically run through workers, as an added bonus with some good drop micro you could actually box in a mineral line as vikings are fairly wide, forcing your opponent to mineral walk as his only means out.
From here, move out those starports onto new tech labs and build more rax on their reactors. upgraded BCs will have an edge on protoss because it is so inefficient for protoss to upgrade shields, BCs will always be able to leverage their upgrades against the shield health of protoss, add in the potential for repairs and the general inefficiency of stalker weapon upgrades, you have a half decent unit. Added bonus: if you really need something to sink resources into, protoss will ALWAYS provide you with a promising yamato cannon target.
Once again, this could only hypothetically work in a build that emphasizes air upgrades from the get go, switching to it willy-nilly is not going to use your resources efficiently as Battle cruisers just take too much time to get up, let alone actually fighting when their damage is being dropped by 5 per shot (armor upgrades + guardian shield).
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On November 07 2011 19:01 Rivkeh wrote:
The correct answer is probably to just not mine gas you're not going to use, as has been stated by a number of people.
I'd like to see battlecruisers get a bit of use, but thats not happening unless you come into the game with a build that includes pumping air upgrades. There have already been a number of posts stating why you should not get into battlecruisers, but I'd like to look at the upside a bit. You can transition your viking infrastracture into a BC infastructure, and plan from the get-go to pump air upgrades. This would go well with a double-ups bio plan where you start pumping air attack as soon as you get your armory to unlock level 2 upgrades, this would happen prior to any scouting of colossus. Hopefully, such an emphasis on air upgrades will allow for two things: 1.) easier "front end" damaging of colossus, bringing them down before they can burn your bio to shreds and 2.) less risk of over committing into vikings as you're making more upgrades and numerically less vikings, as an added bonus they do a little more damage on the ground so if you've got some left over do a pseudo drop into a mineral line, vikings may blow against units that fight back, but the practically run through workers, as an added bonus with some good drop micro you could actually box in a mineral line as vikings are fairly wide, forcing your opponent to mineral walk as his only means out.
From here, move out those starports onto new tech labs and build more rax on their reactors. upgraded BCs will have an edge on protoss because it is so inefficient for protoss to upgrade shields, BCs will always be able to leverage their upgrades against the shield health of protoss, add in the potential for repairs and the general inefficiency of stalker weapon upgrades, you have a half decent unit. Added bonus: if you really need something to sink resources into, protoss will ALWAYS provide you with a promising yamato cannon target.
Once again, this could only hypothetically work in a build that emphasizes air upgrades from the get go, switching to it willy-nilly is not going to use your resources efficiently as Battle cruisers just take too much time to get up, let alone actually fighting when their damage is being dropped by 5 per shot (armor upgrades + guardian shield).
correct me if I'm wrong, but won't you be screwed over massively if the P just...
doesn't get colossi and instead getting HT?
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Cloaked Banshees are a much better option than BCs or Thors since the only option for P mobile detection is the observer. If you manage to catch him by surprise by hiding them before the engagement, one scan + target the observer and that battle will be incredibly one-sided.
If you're worried about having a micro battle between the toss of "who kills the observer or feedbacks the banshees 1st" then you could still bunch them up and do raiding at his mining bases. Like mutas after a certain number of them you can just take canons on (or if he has artosis pylons just unpower all his canons)
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On November 07 2011 17:26 BearDK wrote:
how is this a problem? you say you need more minerals, try using mules.
The Problem is that you mine out your bases a lot faster and get less use out of your expansions. On Maps like Metalopolis you will run into a lot of trouble if the game lasts over 40 minutes because you will be mined out on minerals with at least 6 untouched geysirs left while your opponent isn't close to being outmined using all the geysirs at his expansions because he can balance his gas and mineral count a lot better.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
On November 08 2011 01:02 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 17:26 BearDK wrote:
how is this a problem? you say you need more minerals, try using mules. The Problem is that you mine out your bases a lot faster and get less use out of your expansions. On Maps like Metalopolis you will run into a lot of trouble if the game lasts over 40 minutes because you will be mined out on minerals with at least 6 untouched geysirs left while your opponent isn't close to being outmined using all the geysirs at his expansions because he can balance his gas and mineral count a lot better.
yup, very annoying to see these massive numbers of archons behind the zealot horde and to realize that you don't have a similar thing.
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1. Upgrades are the most important thing to get with upgrades. Double upgrade at your engineering bay in the late game, upgrade air weapons, and ghost upgrades.
2. Nukes are a handy little tool to force responses from the protoss player. This is probably one of the easiest ways to create opportunities in the late game.
3. Reapers are incredible late game TvP, most notably used by QXC is various tournament/ladder games.
4. Cloak banshees can be useful is some scenarios, although I don't have enough experience with them to tell you what to look for to make that decision.
edit: Also be more open minded. It feels like you don't want there to be a good answer.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
On November 08 2011 15:41 alphafuzard wrote:
1. Upgrades are the most important thing to get with upgrades. Double upgrade at your engineering bay in the late game, upgrade air weapons, and ghost upgrades.
2. Nukes are a handy little tool to force responses from the protoss player. This is probably one of the easiest ways to create opportunities in the late game.
3. Reapers are incredible late game TvP, most notably used by QXC is various tournament/ladder games.
4. Cloak banshees can be useful is some scenarios, although I don't have enough experience with them to tell you what to look for to make that decision.
edit: Also be more open minded. It feels like you don't want there to be a good answer.
dude i'm absolutely open-minded, but i'm also open-eyed. and i've seen and played a lot of tvps, and there never was a good way to spend all this gas.
you say make upgrades? of course i will be at 3-3 and still will have a 4-digit gas surplus.
nukes? i agree that they are a good option.
cloaked banshees? i suggested them as an option in the op, but they have their problems (vulnerable to aoe, eat a lot of supply and build long).
reapers? no. qxc is a great player, but by all due respect, he's not capable of beating guys like naniwa, mana or mc with his creative tactics.
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On November 08 2011 15:53 Ganseng wrote:
reapers? no. qxc is a great player, but by all due respect, he's not capable of beating guys like naniwa, mana or mc with his creative tactics.
Don't be ridiculous. If reapers work for qxc, then they can work for you.
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Marauders might not be gas heavy, but the fact you go less marine heavy and more marauder heavy in the late game, means you don't have a ton of extra gas, thus spending it on ghosts/medivacs/vikings *should* end up OK as far as I'm aware, and you *shouldn't* be floating massive amounts of gas to the point of needing a gas dump. When the enemy has HT and/or colossus in late game, marines aren't very useful. Even in pro games I see, I rarely notice more than 1 rax with a reactor - rest get techlabs.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
On November 08 2011 16:15 alphafuzard wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 15:53 Ganseng wrote:
reapers? no. qxc is a great player, but by all due respect, he's not capable of beating guys like naniwa, mana or mc with his creative tactics. Don't be ridiculous. If reapers work for qxc, then they can work for you.
no. between equally skilled players, reapers don't work.
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I saw qxc build a second starport with techlab as he was getting the gas in his third base to constanly produce ravens. It helped a lot agains stalkers and the turrets made for a nice harrisn option (plus, they never disapper so it was sued to spot expansions) i think its has uses but not as straight forward as mineral have in late game.
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BCs are decent if your opponent has a low stalker count, which they usually do if you're marauder heavy. Archons aren't the best against BCs, HTs can feedback but BCs have so much HP they can tank it pretty well, and void rays are rare.
Otherwise you can get fast upgrades.
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Why not build MORE Medivacs and even MORE Ghosts? Medivacs are very gas-intensive ... 
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On November 08 2011 18:55 Ganseng wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 16:15 alphafuzard wrote:On November 08 2011 15:53 Ganseng wrote:
reapers? no. qxc is a great player, but by all due respect, he's not capable of beating guys like naniwa, mana or mc with his creative tactics. Don't be ridiculous. If reapers work for qxc, then they can work for you. no. between equally skilled players, reapers don't work.
They worked for qxc against Genius, who is at least on his level if not better imo.
Reapers work but only in niche situations and incredibly small timing windows. They're best used when the Protoss goes double forge chrono-upgrades. Sniping them continuously keeps the Terran at a great advantage. In fact I believe in that game it was precisely because Genius couldn't finish 3/3 that his army got rolled by qxc's bio.
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With Mules, and a lategame number of Orbital Commands and built up energy on them, I really don't think you WANT a gas dump. I would be more worried about a Terran just banking up that gas, so when he gets a new base he goes 10-20 mules and within a minute has enough money to remax his army after a big fight off of a frankly inconsiderate number of Barracks and 2 or so Starports.
This is like a 30+ minute mentality from the Protoss perspective.
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EPT
