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On October 21 2011 02:49 Kracen wrote:
... PvP for a while was seen as the first to expand loses match up, or the very late expands...
This is true... and this will always be true untill they change warp ins. Warp Gate Tech is balanced around offense - so you will have no advantage defending except from robo/star gate and chokes to FF... if you FE I have a hard time seing you hold a well executed rush
That being said. This build looks somewhat legit. I think you can hold off alot of 1base attacks like 3gate-blink, dt, 1base colo and quite contrary to your believes I think it's a really good build vs phoenix . But... What do you do against 3gate robo, k4g and chargelot/archon?
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Hows it work vs 3 Gate Robo? Or does 3 Gate Robo beat this? You didn't add any replays vs that.
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On October 31 2011 08:06 Mentalizor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 02:49 Kracen wrote:
... PvP for a while was seen as the first to expand loses match up, or the very late expands...
I think you can hold off alot of 1base attacks like 3gate-blink, dt, 1base colo and quite contrary to your believes I think it's a really good build vs phoenix . But... What do you do against 3gate robo, k4g and chargelot/archon?
Why would it be very good vs Phoenix? Phoenix eat Sentries and take very little damage from Stalkers, you need 6 or 7 to prevent them from lifting up and killing more than one Sentry at a time and that only if positioned perfectly.
Edit: Well, if you chrono out an observer I guess you can cut Immortal Production and drop a Twilight, going for a Blink Stalker Expansion with a few too many Sentries... maybe?
3Gate Robot -> you can get the Warp Prism to drop-snipe Colossi, if he does not go for colossi but attacks with Immortals you got your forcefields.
Korean 4Gate -> ... Really? as with any other PvP build in the world, the key to win vs Korean 4 Gate is to kill the Probes/Pylons, you will scout the K4G before building Robo, just add Gates and kill Probes/Pylons with your Stalkers, No Pylon in your Base -> victory (Send one Zealot into his mineral line)
Chargelot/Archon. I'm not sure if you can kill him before he gets Archons, once you know he won't preassure you get an observer and see his tech. If you manage to attack before Archons are there, forcefields will make all his Zealots useless. Plus Warp Prism Harras, just snipe his Temp tech over and over. Or whatever you can..
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I've been experimenting with a similar build, and it can definitely work if the toss decides to attack you with robo play himself or with blink stalkers. However, I had one nasty game where the toss rushed for warp prism and warped in pure zealot at a very early timing. Caught me completely off guard and out of position. Possibly something to watch out for..
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I see you have 2 stalkers with your 3rd chronoing while your opponent has a probe, zealot and stalker already outside your ramp (xelnaga 4 gate replay). If your opponent throws his 3rd pylon at your ramp and push up with his zealots stalker and throws maybe another pylon inside your base(or another beside his 3rd) this variation of 4 gate wouldn't it be risky to try to hold that off with only 2 stalkers (3rd coming out)? Your initial 2 stalkers can kite the zealot stalker back but will it stop him from warping in 4 units up your ramp? Your sentry and warpgate tech won't be done so technically it would be a close fight isn't it? 3 stalkers versus 4 newly warped in units (assuming you already killed his zealot stalker). Do correct me if I mixed up the timings. Will it be safer to skip the gas steal and build a zealot instead? So you will have 1 zealot and 2 stalkers to your opponent's 1 probe 1 zealot 1 stalker.
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What about versus a colos range timing, except the guy ( unlike in the replay ) actually knows to kite with his 9-range colossi ? Cause at this stage you only have range 6 stalkers and immortals and your sentries would be useless.. hmm..
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I robo expand with 2 gas all the time. It's a very safe build on most maps which feature a fairly closed natural as well.
I just dislike some of the details of this build:
- why do you chrono stalkers and skip a zealot? Simply chronoing the warpgate tech is just as safe against 4gate's imo and makes the build smoother. You are not dropping the robo that soon anyway, so that a non chrono'd stalker would also be in time to scare away the probe before dropping that robo. Chronoing the stalkers tends to give more away about your plans then chronoing warpgate imo.
- you cut probes here and there and only chrono twice in the beginning, I don't like that when the overarching plan is to win by expanding. It is possible to be economically greedier and still be safe against 4 gates imo (3 chrono on nexus and not such early probe cutting)
- why make so much sentries?? Sentries are awful in mid/late game PvP. Guardian shield doesnt help much because every ranged unit has a high base damage. Their damage output is also poor (especially with most P units having 1 base armor) and almost every tech negates force fields: colossi and archons are massive, phoenix snipe sentries easily and blink obviously negates FF too.
I try to make 1 sentry max in PvP, 1 is useful for some tactical force fields on the ramp but more is just a waste of money. Gas can be spend so much better on tech or stalkers or whatever really.
The idea behind immortal expanding is great as it can basically stop anything OR adapt in time due to the observer. This makes it my prefferred way of playing on almost any map. I especially like it when the flight time for an observer from my base to theirs is not too long. That way you can cancel your immortal by the time your obs see's their stargate and immediately drop down another gateway and twilight council. You'll still be behind with robo opening agianst stargate but it is in no means an impossible game to win. In that way playing robo is the least 'build order poker' to me as I feel confident against any opening with it, never getting flat out build order wins but never flat out losing either.
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But... What do you do against 3gate robo, k4g and chargelot/archon?
3Gate Robo is quite simple, especially if you did the gas steal, they won't have Sentries, you can very easily Forcefield the Immortals back while you kill the rest of his army, warp in a round of Zealots and have them focus on the Immortals it is fairly simple, I'll go through my replays so you can get a view of it.
K4G is much more tricky, best way is to have your first Stalker walk around your base and kill that Probe before he starts putting the Pylons down and then put your Stalkers in position to catch any new Probes coming up.
Chargelot/Archon is just focus down the Archon asap and then surround yourself with Forcefields, try abuse the pathing of the Archon as it will be at the back, putting Forcefields down during the fight forces them to move the Archon instead of attacking with it, again I'll go through my replay folder and try pick them out.
Will it be safer to skip the gas steal and build a zealot instead?
I have actually stopped doing a gas steal on Xel Naga for this reason, it is very risky as you can only get 1 Chrono per Stalker instead of 1 1/2 due to the 75 minerals you spent, the reason I recommend gas steals with this build is because it can easily hold off a 4gate when you do it right, and because it crosses off a Colossi with range push which is very hard to hold.
What about versus a colos range timing, except the guy ( unlike in the replay ) actually knows to kite with his 9-range colossi ?
I've been experimenting with putting a Warp Prism into the build for pushes like this as you can drop Immortals behind the Colossi for quick kills, however this timing push is so rare to see now that I haven't been able to get any decent replays for it yet.
- why do you chrono stalkers and skip a zealot? Simply chronoing the warpgate tech is just as safe against 4gate's imo and makes the build smoother. You are not dropping the robo that soon anyway, so that a non chrono'd stalker would also be in time to scare away the probe before dropping that robo. Chronoing the stalkers tends to give more away about your plans then chronoing warpgate imo.
I skip the Zealot to get out a fast gas steal (18/19 depending on scouting) so that more pressing threats like Colossi with range pushes are much later for them, plus if they expand they have practically no Sentries so you can just Forcefield their army to pieces and kill the expand.
Plus the idea of the 3 Stalkers is to keep them in their base for that little bit longer, force some Sentries out of them to delay any tech.
- you cut probes here and there and only chrono twice in the beginning, I don't like that when the overarching plan is to win by expanding. It is possible to be economically greedier and still be safe against 4 gates imo (3 chrono on nexus and not such early probe cutting)
It is safe against 4gates if executed correctly, plus with 3 Chrono on the Nexus you either have a delayed Sentry which if they were 4 gating would kill you due to the delayed 2nd and 3rd gate you'll miss that 3rd Forcefield by about 10 seconds or delay your Stalkers which would then also put you at a high risk of being 4 gated.
- why make so much sentries?? Sentries are awful in mid/late game PvP. Guardian shield doesnt help much because every ranged unit has a high base damage. Their damage output is also poor (especially with most P units having 1 base armor) and almost every tech negates force fields: colossi and archons are massive, phoenix snipe sentries easily and blink obviously negates FF too.
The point of the Sentries is that when you see a finished expand in a PvP, you generally go attack, because you will be so economically behind if you do no damage, the Sentries just let you cut their army apart so you can defend, plus if they expand with say only 1 Sentry, you can then go to their expansion, cut their army apart kill the Nexus and go home.
Also you have the ability to be on 4 gas very quickly, so the cost put into the Sentries is not that bad.
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I will try this build out a little. I really don't like Phoenixes in the PvP metagame. It's like, if you take out Stargate from the equation, PvP is actually a decent matchup but it's very Robo-centric. Stargate doesn't add variety, it just adds a random scissors-paper-rock element, which really really sucks.
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Back before I started doing this build I would do the 2 Colossi with range push every single time, it makes it such a dull match up, you can do Blink Stalkers but that's them relying on them keeping their army in one place and hoping they don't split off a few Zealots to the hidden expo, plus I hate the idea of hidden expos in order to win, seems cheesy.
But with this build my win rate in PvP has sky rocketed and I actually find PvP to be my most enjoyable match up and quite possibly my strongest.
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On October 25 2011 03:21 Kracen wrote:
If anyone knows how to do this build against Stargate Phoenix play please do say and if possible post a replay so I can add it to the main post as I just do not know how even after many attempts.
Been trying out your build lately and it's been working very well for me. I've come across pheonix play twice and been able to win fairly easily. Usually, they'll try to go pheonix off one base, if you can hold the initial harass you'll usually come out ahead.
The first obs can usually get to his base by the time he has around 2-3 pheonix. He's usually also in process of building up to 3 gateways at this time, so you know he doesn't have a lot of gateway units. At this time, I cancel the immortal I have building, go up to 4 gates, put up forge with intention of getting 1-2 cannons at each mineral line. Put like 3 stalkers at each mineral line and continue to warp in. This is usually enough to stop mineral line harass from the pheonix.
Next, the opponent will usually try to do a gate + pheonix push to your front door. I try to put up 2 more cannon in front of my expo in preparation for this attack and get twilight for blink. Continue to get more stalkers. The sentries are still critical so you can FF in front of cannons to prevent zealots from moving in.
Once you hold off this attack, you're pretty much on auto pilot for the win. You can get your 3rd base up pretty safely or just kill your opponent.
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Yeah I've been playing about with the same thing however not been putting cannons at the front which is probably a good idea.
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If you manage to gas steal and a 4gate is now on the way, what I would recommend if you don't think you can get 3 Stalkers out in time is get 2 Stalkers and go for a Sentry first and use the 2 Stalkers to kill the Probe and then fall back behind your forcefields and 4gate is no longer an issue, on a bigger map like Antiga Shipyard you can get 3 Stalkers out, but on a map like Xel Naga you most likely will not have enough time.
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If the other player opens Stargate, he should fly the first phoenix to your base and see exactly what you are doing, from there if you expand, I'm pretty sure he will just add on a 4th gate and kill you.
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On November 07 2011 13:06 willyallthewei wrote:
If the other player opens Stargate, he should fly the first phoenix to your base and see exactly what you are doing, from there if you expand, I'm pretty sure he will just add on a 4th gate and kill you.
LOL? why would someone do that. When u go stargate u dont want to let your opp know your tech till u attack.
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On November 07 2011 17:06 Triky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 13:06 willyallthewei wrote:
If the other player opens Stargate, he should fly the first phoenix to your base and see exactly what you are doing, from there if you expand, I'm pretty sure he will just add on a 4th gate and kill you.
LOL? why would someone do that. When u go stargate u dont want to let your opp know your tech till u attack.
Because he doesn't want to die to DTs
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I haven't been losing any PvP in weeks because builds like these became so popular. I'm loving my phoenix right now.
The build I do loses to blind dt rushes (I don't think I've seen anyone do this since beta tho), but is safe against a dt followup after seeing my phoenix.
I'm not saying your build is bad. In fact, it looks like it might even hold off a phoenix allin or at least significantly lower the amount of probe losses because you do get a few stalkers, but I'm pretty sure, if played well, it still flat out loses to a standard economic phoenix build.
Back to rock/paper/scissors pvp I guess :/
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The phoenix problem makes me think it might be better to just skip the robo entirely and go for a forge instead, and expand with cannons instead of immortals. Obviously that would be a totally different build but whatever.
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Well, the thing with Phoenix's is it is more of a coin flip opening more than anything as it is more often than not done completely blind and the current meta game (from my experience) in PvP is Blink Stalkers with Robotics, which will beat Phoenix's most of the time, so I actually see Phoenix's maybe once out of every ten PvP matches so my experience against it is very minimal, so there are probably variations of this build which would easily hold it.
As for forge instead of Robo, if they go for a Colossi timing, it'd be impossible to hold, your tech switch options are much lower and you have no scouting so it is far too risky.
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EPT
