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Hello TL, I am a high(ish) Masters Protoss on the EU server and PvP for a while was seen as the first to expand loses match up, or the very late expands, which I simply never enjoyed, with changes to the Immortal and warp ins, I have been experimenting with a build with a fast expand which is defended with Stalkers, Immortals and Sentries.
Generally in PvP we will see one player get a hidden expand with Blink Stalkers, or turtle Colossi into expanding at a late stage/timing push or cheese.
Not expanding, and hoping they don't spot a hidden expansion until it's too late makes the match up a huge coin flip and very dull, but my build is enjoyable and allows you to expand (in my experience so far)
As far as I am aware this build has not been posted before (did search), sorry if it has.
This build does have a point of cutting Probes however this is because you're getting an expand up you can easily catch up and get ahead.
Build Order;
+ Show Spoiler +9 Pylon
Chronoboost 11th Probe
12 Gate -> scout
Chronoboost 13th Probe
14 Gas
Queue up 3 more Probes (17)
17 Cybernetics core
17 Pylon
18 Gas
18 Gas steal (if possible)
22 Stalker Chronoboosted
(cut probes)
22 Pylon
24 Stalker Chronoboosted
24 Robotics Facility (once scouting Probe is gone)
26 Stalker Chronoboosted.
Build two more Probes
Will stop using supply as indicators here as it becomes too variable
Push out with your 3 Stalkers, this is to prevent/delay any possible 4 gate, during this time you should be building 2 Sentries (Chronoboost it out) and an Observer, cutting Probes again get your expansion down, (if they are 4gating, don't expand, put down 2 more Gates and defend like normal with Sentries and Immortals) Warp gate should be finished once the 2nd Sentry is done, warp in another Sentry and begin your first Immortal asap, build 2 more Gates asap and continue Sentry production until you have 5 and continue Immortal Production until you have 3-5 depending on your opponents build.
Build your tech accordingly to what your opponent is doing, the match up is still a coin flip build order fight, you get a very early Observer so you can tech in the right direction.
(Continued Immortal production with Blink versus Blink openings, Stargate versus Robotics tech, Gateways versus Stargate)
Key notes about the build;
+ Show Spoiler +The 3 Stalker pressure must be executed very effectively, you must either return with all 3 Stalkers unharmed, or do damage to their starting units/forcing out Sentries to delay their tech, if you lose your 3 Stalkers by overextending at their ramp and getting Forcefielded in, you will be very vulnerable to any Stargate tech, you money is very limited while building up the initial defence units (Sentries and Immortals) that it is very hard to (without cutting Probes) to replenish these Stalkers.
This build is not secure against a 4gate, if your opponent is 4gating you cannot expand until it is held off, as you build Sentries and Immortals early on, it is very easy to hold.
This build does involve cutting Probes, points to cut Probes have been said however as the game is so endlessly variable you will find sometimes you can keep building and sometimes not so it comes with practice of the build to know when it is best to cut Probes, remember you're expanding much earlier than your opponent normally will so cutting Probes will not put you behind for very long.
Good forcefields is essential to pull this off.
A gas steal is very useful however not totally needed, the gas steal prevents fast Colossi with range timings, DTs (as you only have one Observer) and delays other tech (especially with the 3 Stalker pressure, if you do it well enough to also force them to build Sentries you can delay their tech even further)
Build Strengths;
+ Show Spoiler +The biggest factor of this build is how it is basically inducing them to attack you, in PvP when you scout a finished expansion and you have not even started your own, the general mindset of most players even in high Masters (cannot say for higher) is to attack instantly, this works in favour of this build due to the high Sentry and Immortal count, with good Forcefields you tear apart any Gateway army.
The build transitions nicely into Colossi tech due to possible 4 gas and already Robotics tech.
The build transitions nicely into air tech due to already having ground dominance with Immortals, making it much harder for Stalkers to be an effective counter to your air play from the opponent.
The build transitions nicely into Chargelot Archon tech due to high Sentry counts allowing you to prevent them kiteing Zealots, or squeezing them all together for an Archon hit.
If a 4gate is coming you can very easily hold it before expanding due to Sentries and Immortals.
When pulled off you're an expand ahead of your opponent.
Due to a fast Observer you have good scouting from the start and can prepare very early on against any potential push.
Due to the Immortal buff, Colossi pushes without range can be held fairly well.
If you manage to do the gas steal, this is still enough to prompt a lot of players to fall back on the 4gate, which in current game standings is a free win for you.
Build Weaknesses;
+ Show Spoiler +Due to being very immobile because of Immortals and Sentries, this leaves you very vulnerable to Phoenix play done correctly (by correctly I mean the harass and kill the Sentries ((however this could be because Phoenix's in PvP being the rarest build I face, I may just not of had the experience to react accordingly and the build may be fine against it))
Colossi with range timing pushes can be hard to hold, however more testing may be required to say this 100%
A very fast gas steal from your opponent can slow this build down due to lack of Sentries, plus it delays the 3 Stalker pressure which is essential.
Due to immobility Warp Prisms with speed (the double Immortal drop or just Zealots) can cause a lot of damage if you do not catch it before it does damage.
This build relies on your opponent directly engaging, or just expanding themselves, if they go for harassment in the form of Warp Prisms or Phoenix's without engaging your army, they will be able to hit a timing where your Sentries are either killed by Phoenix's or your Forcefields will not be in a position to help you (such as 4 gate Warp Prism special tactics style.)
Replays;
+ Show Spoiler +
Overall I see this build to have a lot of potential and could (in my dreams) become a large part of PvP play.
This build does require crisp execution with little room for error (such as the match up of PvP itself)
Feedback is welcome and encouraged, would love to hear from higher level players and players of all levels on their opinions on this build, I am not claiming ownership just yet as I am not 100% if this is a brand new build yet or that I just managed to come up with the same build someone else had as well.
For those who use this build and have success, I hope you enjoyed using the build and I hope it brings you many PvP wins, and makes the match up enjoyable from now on.
Any Grandmaster Protoss players who comment would be highly appreciated as I am not at that level to be able to say this works at the very top however I have increased my win rate in PvP from just over 50% to at least 70-80% with this build in my place of high(ish) Masters
Thank you for reading.
-Kracen
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There's lots of variations of 1-gate robo expand in PvP lately and I think in general it's a solid strategy. I do one with 1 gas so I don't have to make so many sentries, personally. I know White-Ra and Sase do FEs with fast robos as well.
Against Colossus all-ins, I've found that warp prisms with immortals for flanks is very effective. The 6 range buff for immortals helps hold this all-in a lot.
I'm not sure yet if this build is viable at all against a phoenix all-in. Those seem to be really strong but it's still very new and I haven't experienced it much.
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I have been using the 3 gate stargate build alot recently in my PvP and in my experience, it'S almost auto win if the guy went for a robo because if you go immortal you will most likely have alot of zealot/centries and phx do insane amount of DPS versus them. And on top of that with their remaining energy they can lift the immortal making them way less effective and very suceptible to being snipe. Also alows zealot to get a good souround on them once they get down. And that is against people who are going for something like 3 gate robo builds. If you expand on top of that, i dont think holding that push would be possible at all ...
Of course you could maybe hold a harass of phx with good micro, but if your oponent goes for a timing with that. You will most likely straight up lose... I saddly dont have any replay to back off want i mean ( deleted all of them recently) but i think you should be carefull with that build since i have seen it auto lose to a phx composition.
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How does this build do against a blink stalker all in? It seems like you wouldn't have enough defense to hold it off.
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Yeah I know what you mean HellRush, I have had the experience of insta loses versus Phoenix plays, however Stargate play is very rare PvP (in my experience) simply because of no detection making DT rushes an instant lose for anything other than Robotics.
A lot of Stargate wins are usually blind luck as it is usually done fairly blind and hoping that they are not actually going for a DT rush, having no detection makes them very vulnerable.
My usual reaction to seeing Stargate is a hidden Dark Shrine.
How does this build do against a blink stalker all in? It seems like you wouldn't have enough defense to hold it off.
4 Immortals 1 shot Stalkers, (if you get fast +1 Weapons, Immortals 3 shot Stalkers ((just a random note for people who don't realise this), if they go for Blink Stalker all ins, you just tear through them with Stalkers and Immortals, you have Guardian shield and you only build about 5 Sentries which is actually very easy to get very fast, and you can then begin Stalker production to absorb some shots while your Immortals just rip through them.
Also I think I posted a replay of Blink Stalkers.
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I also do a 1-gas build that similar to this, and it's close to auto-loss against phoenix openings. Your opening is probably better against phoenixes because you get more stalkers, but really, anything with immortals is going to be bad against phoenixes. A 150/100 unit can harass, can quickly kill sentries, and after that, gets to completely neutralize a 250/100 unit. Phoenix builds just crap all over immortal builds.
On maps without a choke at the natural, I suspect you'd die to well-timed gateway pressure. If you can't stop zealots from hitting your units, you're going to lose.
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On maps without a choke at the natural, I suspect you'd die to well-timed gateway pressure. If you can't stop zealots from hitting your units, you're going to lose.
It certainly makes it harder, a map like Typhon peaks, where the choke is further away, you can move forward to engage them there to solve this issue, and right now that is only the map I can think of where the choke becomes an issue, maybe Tal'Darim however that is just a 4gate map anyway.
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So if I go quick charge 3 gate will you hold? Sure you can forcefield but sentry/immortal doesn't exactly have the highesr dps against zealots
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Your Zealots wouldn't even get to hit my units.
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I love this build.. I started playing around with this since yesterday and once you get to feel when to cut probes and scout properly it is pretty solid.. When im up against phoenixes my only chance is cannon up and pull guys out of 1 assimilator to get more stalkies.. Will get my protoss friend and play some more games because thats the only weakness of this build i see right now 
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That's the good thing though YosHGo, this builds biggest weakness is a build (Phoenix's) which (at least at my league) is very rare to find due to it having so many vulnerabilities, and the Phoenix opening being weak against current standard openings which are Blink Robo.
This build is also very strong against Blink Robo due to the high Immortal count so with current meta game, this build is just so solid right now.
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Added a replay for versus Blink Stalker all ins in case anyone was unsure how it faired against the all in version of Blink Stalkers.
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Yeah, it seems like robo-immortal expands have become pretty common in pvp atm since fast robo along with the 4 warpgate nerfs makes it almost an auto win vs a standard 4gate. I've been doing a 2 gate robo immortal push and expand at 8 min and I actually played against someone who did the exact same thing. I think robo expands are very good although phoenixes can cause trouble. Also, I like the gas steal in pvp. Especially with this build since phoenixes a minute later will make a huge difference.
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This looks really really good. I'm going to do this when I ladder later and report back. :D
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If anyone knows how to do this build against Stargate Phoenix play please do say and if possible post a replay so I can add it to the main post as I just do not know how even after many attempts.
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Definitely going to try this build after class. :D
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I would not recommend this build on Meta due to the natural choke being so large, splitting any aggression with Forcefields would be near impossible.
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If you go twilight after robo with this build, I feel you could transition easily enough to archons with 2 bases of gas, which would deal with any phoenix play and trade alright against robo.
Also when you scout some phoenix play, you can always DT into free win (try hide the shrine if possible) if they don't make a robo or forge.
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I take it back, this works nicely on Meta, just requires perfect forcefields.
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On October 21 2011 02:49 Kracen wrote:
... PvP for a while was seen as the first to expand loses match up, or the very late expands...
This is true... and this will always be true untill they change warp ins. Warp Gate Tech is balanced around offense - so you will have no advantage defending except from robo/star gate and chokes to FF... if you FE I have a hard time seing you hold a well executed rush
That being said. This build looks somewhat legit. I think you can hold off alot of 1base attacks like 3gate-blink, dt, 1base colo and quite contrary to your believes I think it's a really good build vs phoenix . But... What do you do against 3gate robo, k4g and chargelot/archon?
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Hows it work vs 3 Gate Robo? Or does 3 Gate Robo beat this? You didn't add any replays vs that.
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On October 31 2011 08:06 Mentalizor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 02:49 Kracen wrote:
... PvP for a while was seen as the first to expand loses match up, or the very late expands...
I think you can hold off alot of 1base attacks like 3gate-blink, dt, 1base colo and quite contrary to your believes I think it's a really good build vs phoenix . But... What do you do against 3gate robo, k4g and chargelot/archon?
Why would it be very good vs Phoenix? Phoenix eat Sentries and take very little damage from Stalkers, you need 6 or 7 to prevent them from lifting up and killing more than one Sentry at a time and that only if positioned perfectly.
Edit: Well, if you chrono out an observer I guess you can cut Immortal Production and drop a Twilight, going for a Blink Stalker Expansion with a few too many Sentries... maybe?
3Gate Robot -> you can get the Warp Prism to drop-snipe Colossi, if he does not go for colossi but attacks with Immortals you got your forcefields.
Korean 4Gate -> ... Really? as with any other PvP build in the world, the key to win vs Korean 4 Gate is to kill the Probes/Pylons, you will scout the K4G before building Robo, just add Gates and kill Probes/Pylons with your Stalkers, No Pylon in your Base -> victory (Send one Zealot into his mineral line)
Chargelot/Archon. I'm not sure if you can kill him before he gets Archons, once you know he won't preassure you get an observer and see his tech. If you manage to attack before Archons are there, forcefields will make all his Zealots useless. Plus Warp Prism Harras, just snipe his Temp tech over and over. Or whatever you can..
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I've been experimenting with a similar build, and it can definitely work if the toss decides to attack you with robo play himself or with blink stalkers. However, I had one nasty game where the toss rushed for warp prism and warped in pure zealot at a very early timing. Caught me completely off guard and out of position. Possibly something to watch out for..
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I see you have 2 stalkers with your 3rd chronoing while your opponent has a probe, zealot and stalker already outside your ramp (xelnaga 4 gate replay). If your opponent throws his 3rd pylon at your ramp and push up with his zealots stalker and throws maybe another pylon inside your base(or another beside his 3rd) this variation of 4 gate wouldn't it be risky to try to hold that off with only 2 stalkers (3rd coming out)? Your initial 2 stalkers can kite the zealot stalker back but will it stop him from warping in 4 units up your ramp? Your sentry and warpgate tech won't be done so technically it would be a close fight isn't it? 3 stalkers versus 4 newly warped in units (assuming you already killed his zealot stalker). Do correct me if I mixed up the timings. Will it be safer to skip the gas steal and build a zealot instead? So you will have 1 zealot and 2 stalkers to your opponent's 1 probe 1 zealot 1 stalker.
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What about versus a colos range timing, except the guy ( unlike in the replay ) actually knows to kite with his 9-range colossi ? Cause at this stage you only have range 6 stalkers and immortals and your sentries would be useless.. hmm..
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I robo expand with 2 gas all the time. It's a very safe build on most maps which feature a fairly closed natural as well.
I just dislike some of the details of this build:
- why do you chrono stalkers and skip a zealot? Simply chronoing the warpgate tech is just as safe against 4gate's imo and makes the build smoother. You are not dropping the robo that soon anyway, so that a non chrono'd stalker would also be in time to scare away the probe before dropping that robo. Chronoing the stalkers tends to give more away about your plans then chronoing warpgate imo.
- you cut probes here and there and only chrono twice in the beginning, I don't like that when the overarching plan is to win by expanding. It is possible to be economically greedier and still be safe against 4 gates imo (3 chrono on nexus and not such early probe cutting)
- why make so much sentries?? Sentries are awful in mid/late game PvP. Guardian shield doesnt help much because every ranged unit has a high base damage. Their damage output is also poor (especially with most P units having 1 base armor) and almost every tech negates force fields: colossi and archons are massive, phoenix snipe sentries easily and blink obviously negates FF too.
I try to make 1 sentry max in PvP, 1 is useful for some tactical force fields on the ramp but more is just a waste of money. Gas can be spend so much better on tech or stalkers or whatever really.
The idea behind immortal expanding is great as it can basically stop anything OR adapt in time due to the observer. This makes it my prefferred way of playing on almost any map. I especially like it when the flight time for an observer from my base to theirs is not too long. That way you can cancel your immortal by the time your obs see's their stargate and immediately drop down another gateway and twilight council. You'll still be behind with robo opening agianst stargate but it is in no means an impossible game to win. In that way playing robo is the least 'build order poker' to me as I feel confident against any opening with it, never getting flat out build order wins but never flat out losing either.
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But... What do you do against 3gate robo, k4g and chargelot/archon?
3Gate Robo is quite simple, especially if you did the gas steal, they won't have Sentries, you can very easily Forcefield the Immortals back while you kill the rest of his army, warp in a round of Zealots and have them focus on the Immortals it is fairly simple, I'll go through my replays so you can get a view of it.
K4G is much more tricky, best way is to have your first Stalker walk around your base and kill that Probe before he starts putting the Pylons down and then put your Stalkers in position to catch any new Probes coming up.
Chargelot/Archon is just focus down the Archon asap and then surround yourself with Forcefields, try abuse the pathing of the Archon as it will be at the back, putting Forcefields down during the fight forces them to move the Archon instead of attacking with it, again I'll go through my replay folder and try pick them out.
Will it be safer to skip the gas steal and build a zealot instead?
I have actually stopped doing a gas steal on Xel Naga for this reason, it is very risky as you can only get 1 Chrono per Stalker instead of 1 1/2 due to the 75 minerals you spent, the reason I recommend gas steals with this build is because it can easily hold off a 4gate when you do it right, and because it crosses off a Colossi with range push which is very hard to hold.
What about versus a colos range timing, except the guy ( unlike in the replay ) actually knows to kite with his 9-range colossi ?
I've been experimenting with putting a Warp Prism into the build for pushes like this as you can drop Immortals behind the Colossi for quick kills, however this timing push is so rare to see now that I haven't been able to get any decent replays for it yet.
- why do you chrono stalkers and skip a zealot? Simply chronoing the warpgate tech is just as safe against 4gate's imo and makes the build smoother. You are not dropping the robo that soon anyway, so that a non chrono'd stalker would also be in time to scare away the probe before dropping that robo. Chronoing the stalkers tends to give more away about your plans then chronoing warpgate imo.
I skip the Zealot to get out a fast gas steal (18/19 depending on scouting) so that more pressing threats like Colossi with range pushes are much later for them, plus if they expand they have practically no Sentries so you can just Forcefield their army to pieces and kill the expand.
Plus the idea of the 3 Stalkers is to keep them in their base for that little bit longer, force some Sentries out of them to delay any tech.
- you cut probes here and there and only chrono twice in the beginning, I don't like that when the overarching plan is to win by expanding. It is possible to be economically greedier and still be safe against 4 gates imo (3 chrono on nexus and not such early probe cutting)
It is safe against 4gates if executed correctly, plus with 3 Chrono on the Nexus you either have a delayed Sentry which if they were 4 gating would kill you due to the delayed 2nd and 3rd gate you'll miss that 3rd Forcefield by about 10 seconds or delay your Stalkers which would then also put you at a high risk of being 4 gated.
- why make so much sentries?? Sentries are awful in mid/late game PvP. Guardian shield doesnt help much because every ranged unit has a high base damage. Their damage output is also poor (especially with most P units having 1 base armor) and almost every tech negates force fields: colossi and archons are massive, phoenix snipe sentries easily and blink obviously negates FF too.
The point of the Sentries is that when you see a finished expand in a PvP, you generally go attack, because you will be so economically behind if you do no damage, the Sentries just let you cut their army apart so you can defend, plus if they expand with say only 1 Sentry, you can then go to their expansion, cut their army apart kill the Nexus and go home.
Also you have the ability to be on 4 gas very quickly, so the cost put into the Sentries is not that bad.
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I will try this build out a little. I really don't like Phoenixes in the PvP metagame. It's like, if you take out Stargate from the equation, PvP is actually a decent matchup but it's very Robo-centric. Stargate doesn't add variety, it just adds a random scissors-paper-rock element, which really really sucks.
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Back before I started doing this build I would do the 2 Colossi with range push every single time, it makes it such a dull match up, you can do Blink Stalkers but that's them relying on them keeping their army in one place and hoping they don't split off a few Zealots to the hidden expo, plus I hate the idea of hidden expos in order to win, seems cheesy.
But with this build my win rate in PvP has sky rocketed and I actually find PvP to be my most enjoyable match up and quite possibly my strongest.
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On October 25 2011 03:21 Kracen wrote:
If anyone knows how to do this build against Stargate Phoenix play please do say and if possible post a replay so I can add it to the main post as I just do not know how even after many attempts.
Been trying out your build lately and it's been working very well for me. I've come across pheonix play twice and been able to win fairly easily. Usually, they'll try to go pheonix off one base, if you can hold the initial harass you'll usually come out ahead.
The first obs can usually get to his base by the time he has around 2-3 pheonix. He's usually also in process of building up to 3 gateways at this time, so you know he doesn't have a lot of gateway units. At this time, I cancel the immortal I have building, go up to 4 gates, put up forge with intention of getting 1-2 cannons at each mineral line. Put like 3 stalkers at each mineral line and continue to warp in. This is usually enough to stop mineral line harass from the pheonix.
Next, the opponent will usually try to do a gate + pheonix push to your front door. I try to put up 2 more cannon in front of my expo in preparation for this attack and get twilight for blink. Continue to get more stalkers. The sentries are still critical so you can FF in front of cannons to prevent zealots from moving in.
Once you hold off this attack, you're pretty much on auto pilot for the win. You can get your 3rd base up pretty safely or just kill your opponent.
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Yeah I've been playing about with the same thing however not been putting cannons at the front which is probably a good idea.
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If you manage to gas steal and a 4gate is now on the way, what I would recommend if you don't think you can get 3 Stalkers out in time is get 2 Stalkers and go for a Sentry first and use the 2 Stalkers to kill the Probe and then fall back behind your forcefields and 4gate is no longer an issue, on a bigger map like Antiga Shipyard you can get 3 Stalkers out, but on a map like Xel Naga you most likely will not have enough time.
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If the other player opens Stargate, he should fly the first phoenix to your base and see exactly what you are doing, from there if you expand, I'm pretty sure he will just add on a 4th gate and kill you.
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On November 07 2011 13:06 willyallthewei wrote:
If the other player opens Stargate, he should fly the first phoenix to your base and see exactly what you are doing, from there if you expand, I'm pretty sure he will just add on a 4th gate and kill you.
LOL? why would someone do that. When u go stargate u dont want to let your opp know your tech till u attack.
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On November 07 2011 17:06 Triky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 13:06 willyallthewei wrote:
If the other player opens Stargate, he should fly the first phoenix to your base and see exactly what you are doing, from there if you expand, I'm pretty sure he will just add on a 4th gate and kill you.
LOL? why would someone do that. When u go stargate u dont want to let your opp know your tech till u attack.
Because he doesn't want to die to DTs
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I haven't been losing any PvP in weeks because builds like these became so popular. I'm loving my phoenix right now.
The build I do loses to blind dt rushes (I don't think I've seen anyone do this since beta tho), but is safe against a dt followup after seeing my phoenix.
I'm not saying your build is bad. In fact, it looks like it might even hold off a phoenix allin or at least significantly lower the amount of probe losses because you do get a few stalkers, but I'm pretty sure, if played well, it still flat out loses to a standard economic phoenix build.
Back to rock/paper/scissors pvp I guess :/
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The phoenix problem makes me think it might be better to just skip the robo entirely and go for a forge instead, and expand with cannons instead of immortals. Obviously that would be a totally different build but whatever.
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Well, the thing with Phoenix's is it is more of a coin flip opening more than anything as it is more often than not done completely blind and the current meta game (from my experience) in PvP is Blink Stalkers with Robotics, which will beat Phoenix's most of the time, so I actually see Phoenix's maybe once out of every ten PvP matches so my experience against it is very minimal, so there are probably variations of this build which would easily hold it.
As for forge instead of Robo, if they go for a Colossi timing, it'd be impossible to hold, your tech switch options are much lower and you have no scouting so it is far too risky.
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United States8476 Posts
On November 08 2011 01:14 Kracen wrote:
Well, the thing with Phoenix's is it is more of a coin flip opening more than anything as it is more often than not done completely blind and the current meta game (from my experience) in PvP is Blink Stalkers with Robotics, which will beat Phoenix's most of the time, so I actually see Phoenix's maybe once out of every ten PvP matches so my experience against it is very minimal, so there are probably variations of this build which would easily hold it.
As for forge instead of Robo, if they go for a Colossi timing, it'd be impossible to hold, your tech switch options are much lower and you have no scouting so it is far too risky.
Phoenix openings are not as risky as most people think they are in this patch, just as much as almost any other PvP build. Imo blind fast colossi is more of a coin flip. Depending on how you use phoenix and the followup, phoenix openings are playable versus every other protoss opening except 1-3 gate cannon expand and blink allin.
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Stopping Immortal production and going straight for Twilight and Blink is a good way to stop SG builds with this, or if you're confident you can go Forge with constant Immortal production and get cannons up
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EPT
