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Italy12246 Posts
On October 11 2011 22:51 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 22:00 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On October 11 2011 21:45 Monkeyballs25 wrote:On October 11 2011 16:44 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On October 11 2011 15:58 (kimi)YaSu wrote:
I think there is a small degree of truth to this post. Since bronze players all got told to "macro better", doesn't that mean everyone is trying to do that? Therefore, thanks to forums, macroing better is no longer the only distinguishing line between good and bad players.
Most players who are active also read the forums for tips and therefore all of our macro has gotten better.
The standards of starcraft has risen.
By all means, if you disagree, then put up a replay! I'd be very interested to see what bronze-level play with good macro looks like. Probably any Protoss player who drops his 9 pylon perfectly on time, constantly makes workers, gets his gateway(and core? not sure on timings) down perfectly and then dies to 6pool lings. Would he have had perfect macro afterwards? Probably not, but that's why you need to add a little cheese defence advice into the general "just focus on macro" advice to bronzies  You make a valid point to a certain extent, but even if you literally just died every time you got 6-pooled, you would still make it out of the lower leagues if you were meeting all the goals I describe. 6-pools aren't 50% of games on the ladder.Probe1 made a similar point, and I'll concede it: Macro and scouting and responding to cheese are the only things you should be really focusing on in low-level games. Regardless, you can't respond to cheese correctly without good macro either. Even responding correctly to a 6-pool is made much easier if your pylon and gateway go down as quickly as possible, and responding to stuff like 2-gate proxied Zealots or a Marine/SCV all-in is all about getting as many units as possible out as fast as you can. With regards to the bit I highlighted: In fairness there is an absurd amount of cheese further down the ladder because many low ranked players are just looking to win as fast as possible. They may lose some, but they'll win more because its rare they'll come across a decently competent opponent. Hence cheesing is the fastest way to move up the ladder. Bad habit to learn to play that way from the very start; but its undeniably effective up to a certain point. So it tends to be really quite prevalent.
Ironically enough, that's also why the "practice your macro" bit is sometimes ignored by lower league players.
On topic: macro better is definitely the way to go. I went from bronze to platinum simply macroing until maxed on 3 bases, amoving my army while putting up maybe a guardian shield and a few forcefields, and then going back to macro. Most of the time i didn't even watch the battles, and most of the time i would lose the engagement but my second weave of reinforcements would overwhelm him. After making it in diamond i have had to micro -a bit- in battles, and it's definitely something i have to work on, but i guarantee from personal experience to all the lower league players posting here that if you want to improve on the long run, practicing
1) not getting supply blocked
2) ALWAYS build stuff. The unit itself isn't particularly important, as long as your money is constantly sub-500 ish.
3) ALWAYS build workers. Never, ever, ever stop.
Applying those three gets you to at least platinum easily.
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Developing and talking about strategy is just more fun than talking about improving macro. You can end up feeling like some of the fun of the game isn't available to you when people just keep telling you to improve your macro.
I think I felt that way myself before I started really seeing how unbelievably important basic macro is. I played in the GeForce Pro-Am as Gold, lost to a Masters level player and dove right into the reply to see what clever build he did, what strat he used to crush me. Turns out he crushed me by making probes. That was it.
So I know what I need to improve -- basic macro. But here's the upside for the OP and other low-level players: because macro is really what you need, you can pretty much do any strategy you like. Since neither you nor your opponent is going to nail all your scvs/probes/injects, the one who does better probably wins.
Take advantage of this to do fun things! Battlecruiser rush! Nukes, mothership, mass infestors, w/e. Go crazy and have fun with it. The meta game will probably shift before we get to diamond anyway, so you don't have to worry about crisp openings just yet.
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This was a fascinating thread to read for a low leaguer, like me, because of the difference of opinions. I played beta and started in Season 1, but due to actually knowing a few good builds and how to stop cheese, I was placed in Platinum (which I'm definitely not). So I got discouraged because I was constantly getting destroyed in 80% of my matches. Between that, buying a house, and having a pregnant wife (son due in about a week) I stopped playing until two weeks ago. I was placed in Bronze after my placement matches. Yesterday I was moved to Silver.
In my last 25 games I have 18 wins. The reason? Most of the games are TvP right now, oddly enough. For example my last seven straight ladder games have been TvP and I bet 65+% of my matches have been TvP. Which I why I wish I wasn't pushed to Silver so quickly as I think I'm skewed badly since my TvZ is awful and my TvT is pretty mediocre.
I have a build for TvP that I practiced and practiced and practiced back in Season 1 because once upon a time my TvP was totally pathetic. Practicing that build taught me how to pay incredible attention to the macro portion of that build for the first 10 minutes or so because my TvP doesn't generally last beyond that. My macro starts slipping after the initial 10 minutes if the P survives, but my macro gets better every game as I start to remember how to react to what I scout so things become more second nature. I fully believe the games don't last beyond 10 minutes because my macro is just flat out better then the other guy.
TL;DR - coming from a fellow low ranked player, macro is 95% of the answer in reality. The other 5% in my opinion is to practice a single build or two per match up and only use those in the lower leagues. Once you get those mastered everything starts to mesh together allowing you to start being reactive to what you scout and move onto other builds as you see fit.
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Here's another replay of the "just make roaches and hydras and kill the other guy" variety.
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)Tamerlane_vs_(T)Edodind/14308
-no scouting beyond "where is his base" and "has he expanded". I literally had no idea what he was teching to, nor did I care
-no looking at battles unless they take place in my base, because hey I need to look at my base anyway
Its really quite an interesting experience. I remember looking at my minimap during the final attack and seeing my coloured blob of units at his natural make his differently coloured blob disappear and was like "oh sweet, I guess I'll build some more roaches and hydras and send those in too"
The banshee harass(if you can call 4 very late banshees with cloak a harass) was still pretty scary given that they nearly killed my lair, need to make myself safer there. But no real dangers other then that. I think that also highlights the connection between good macro and cheese defence. I've you've got the response to a bunker in the natural or cloaked banshee attacks memorised, it hopefully won't break your macro routine as badly.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I'm glad to see that a macro-centric approach is working for you. I consider the most important basic skills to learn to be Macro and Crisis Management. Fighting off that cloak harass was vital your success in the game, just as amassing an enormous army of roach/hydra was.
Macrostomp is a legitimate way to win a game, and is pretty fun-- but do try to work on your other skills as well. A vital thing you will want to work on is "Macroing while also doing other stuff" as you improve. Many players have good macro that utterly falls apart when they try to do other things like spread creep, scout, or micro the army. The idea of "only look at your base" is based on that fact. If you can sustain good macro while also doing things like microing, that's a good step as well, and is how most people try to play.
* * *
A classic example of where this becomes important is, some time ago a Terran player posted asking for help about how to hold a VR all-in. It was a TvP (Both players were master league) on Shattered temple. The Void Ray all in started, and the Terran player looked like he was going to hold, but his macro eventually slipped, and he finally got busted with about 800 minerals in the bank.
He's a Master League player; he clearly knows how to spend his money on 1 base. It wasn't just macro that did him in, but "Macro while other stuff is going on" that did him in. This happens to me all the time as well; whenever anything stressful happens, I get tunnel vision and have to forcibly remind myself to macro so I don't lose.
The strategy of not looking at a fight and just macroing is trying to avoid this sort of loss that comes from tunnel vision. As you start to look back towards your battles and micro, remember that the purpose of the macrostomp exercise for most people is to demonstrate how powerful macro is so that you don't let it slip.
A friend once told me, "When a battle happens, poor players watch the fight, and good players look away and macro-- but the truly great players are watching the fight WHILE looking away and macroing."
You have to be good to be great, though. Still working on that first part 
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On October 12 2011 03:26 Blazinghand wrote:
A friend once told me, "When a battle happens, poor players watch the fight, and good players look away and macro-- but the truly great players are watching the fight WHILE looking away and macroing."
Thanks for watching
Yeah I'm so guilty of watching fights when I'm not really contributing anything meaningful to them, and totally neglecting production and rallying of reinforcements instead. I just watched the replay, apparently I killed a PF at his natural with hydras too, that was nice
Also the crisis management while macroing thing is pretty big. Its probably not a coincidence that I got supply blocked even right after the fairly pathetic bunker harass. I think if that's the reason for macro slipups, its important for the player to learn and memorise the right response so they can get back to macroing.
Also for future games I think I'll just get a 3rd queen and morph an overseer right after the lair pops, its a fairly useful thing to do generally imo.
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I think it's also important to note (and it may have been mentioned) but the macro is what allows you to utilize that strategy you're talking about improving. For example, in a zerg v terran if he has a huge marine ball you might say "a good strategy is to get infestors" but if you're macro is weak you get 1 or 2 infestors w/o energy upgrade and you still lose and you think to yourself "that strategy feels wrong" but actually it is right, you just need 4-5 infestors w/ energy upgrade and units to back them up.
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I do agree; as someone who has coached lower league players, yes they can always improve their macro. I can always improve my macro. But often times their macro isn't what is keeping them from moving to the next league. Other things that are also very important:
-Build Order
-Battle Micro
-Scouting
-Over Turtling
-Dealing with Cheese (aka 6 pools, proxy 2 rax, proxy 2 gate, cannon rush, etc)
Then as you get a little higher you need things like positioning, sacrificing bases, harassing, multi prong attack/defense, multiple build orders, game sense.
That's why SC2 is so awesome, it's not just all about macro; it just happens to be that macro is a very good correlation to skill, as your macro improves typically all other aspects of your gameplay do as well.
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On October 12 2011 04:36 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
I do agree; as someone who has coached lower league players, yes they can always improve their macro. I can always improve my macro. But often times their macro isn't what is keeping them from moving to the next league. Other things that are also very important:
-Build Order
-Battle Micro
-Scouting
-Over Turtling
-Dealing with Cheese (aka 6 pools, proxy 2 rax, proxy 2 gate, cannon rush, etc)
Then as you get a little higher you need things like positioning, sacrificing bases, harassing, multi prong attack/defense, multiple build orders, game sense.
That's why SC2 is so awesome, it's not just all about macro; it just happens to be that macro is a very good correlation to skill, as your macro improves typically all other aspects of your gameplay do as well.
Bold- improving mechanics improves this stuff implicitly
italics- this is not that important after you know when to "run away" or "fight"
underline- the hell?
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On October 12 2011 04:42 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 04:36 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
I do agree; as someone who has coached lower league players, yes they can always improve their macro. I can always improve my macro. But often times their macro isn't what is keeping them from moving to the next league. Other things that are also very important:
-Build Order
-Battle Micro
-Scouting
-Over Turtling
-Dealing with Cheese (aka 6 pools, proxy 2 rax, proxy 2 gate, cannon rush, etc)
Then as you get a little higher you need things like positioning, sacrificing bases, harassing, multi prong attack/defense, multiple build orders, game sense.
That's why SC2 is so awesome, it's not just all about macro; it just happens to be that macro is a very good correlation to skill, as your macro improves typically all other aspects of your gameplay do as well. Bold- improving mechanics improves this stuff implicitly italics- this is not that important after you know when to "run away" or "fight" underline- the hell?
Funny how quickly "improve your macro" becomes "improve your mechanics" a term so vague it encompasses pretty much every single aspect of Starcraft 2 beyond unit choice.
Build orders are a 50/50 thing. A build order is a means to an end. The end is a strategy, the means is how efficiently the build order gets you there. Like that earlier post where someone pointed out that going 13 pool over 11 overpool and delaying your gas a bit more gives you the same general result(+1 speedlings) but just plain does it better. Provided the build's goal itself is vaguely sensible(IE not mass queen), the individual choice(roach/hydra vs muta/ling/bling) is less important compared to macro stuff.
I'd agree that battle micro isn't super important. And if you rely on unit blobs you don't even have to worry about the "retreat" bit, you just build another blob if the first one dies.
Scouting helps macro, especially for Zerg. But its pointless conflating the two things. Just say "scouting is important, just not as much as macro", if that's what you meant to say. Yes scouting is part of mechanics, but so is EVERYTHING.
"Overturtling". Hey, you'd be surprised how common this is in low leagues. Part of it can be solved by macro tips, IE don't cut worker production to build base defenses, always expand to your natural when you're at 30 workers(20 for zerg). Anyone who follows those two tips simply won't be able to turtle since they'll have to keep expanding. Part of it is scouting so that the player knows when he simply doesn't need base defenses. And part of it is pointing out exactly how much base defense they need to hold a given push, IE not very much if any.
"Dealing with cheese". Yes improving your "mechanics" will help with these. Specifically, improving your *dealing with cheese* mechanics that so many people take for granted. Continuing to macro *during* the cheese is also important, but insufficient on its own.
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Sc2 is my first ever that i ever played, so everything about microing and marcoing is comepetey new to me but i believe the best way to get into a good at timings etc is by doing a cheese build. i was playing in bronze and trying to play not focusing only anything. and i came across husky where i saw TLO do a 4racks and i thought it would be funny to do that. i played terran and 4racks everygame and then it helped with my timings, when i should do certain things. it has taken me 6 months and i got put into masters.
doing cheese builds in my opinion is the best way to understand how sc2 works.
when i mean cheese builds i dont mean a fully in all build. such as a 6pool with 2 extra pair of lings
just a 4racks with obital something to fall back on even if you tear up his base.
good luck noobies
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On October 12 2011 05:41 BeVDoG wrote:
doing one-base builds in my opinion is the best way to understand how sc2 works.
when i mean cheese builds i dont mean a fully in all build. such as a 6pool with 2 extra pair of lings
just a 4racks with obital something to fall back on even if you tear up his base.
good luck noobies
Changed it, I think that's a more accurate statement. Players want to macro better but can't because they can't handle more than 1 base properly, meaning saturation, supply, and infrastructure. The idea is basically work on your macro yes, but don't skip macro 101 and go straight to macro 201
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On October 12 2011 04:42 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 04:36 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
I do agree; as someone who has coached lower league players, yes they can always improve their macro. I can always improve my macro. But often times their macro isn't what is keeping them from moving to the next league. Other things that are also very important:
-Build Order
-Battle Micro
-Scouting
-Over Turtling
-Dealing with Cheese (aka 6 pools, proxy 2 rax, proxy 2 gate, cannon rush, etc)
Then as you get a little higher you need things like positioning, sacrificing bases, harassing, multi prong attack/defense, multiple build orders, game sense.
That's why SC2 is so awesome, it's not just all about macro; it just happens to be that macro is a very good correlation to skill, as your macro improves typically all other aspects of your gameplay do as well. Bold- improving mechanics improves this stuff implicitly italics- this is not that important after you know when to "run away" or "fight" underline- the hell?
better macro =/= better mechanics.
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Don't have time to read the entire 26page thread, and I am sure something like this has been posted before, but one of the main reasons why "Macro better" is a big part of advice for newbies, is because not only is what they actually need to focus on and improve, their macro, but strategy is completely different at lower levels, builds are different timings are different (non-existent ;P) and units are have a different value. In a specific game going something with infestors or blings might be the correct strategy, but for a lower level player that might be wrong, since they would either be unable to control their blings or infestors properly, or it would take too much of a toll on their macro.
Obviously simple strategy still applies, like if he goes all hydra in ZVP you can go colossi to counter it, or if he builds mutas you build marines\thors. But most people know such strategy\unit counters, or could find it in places like liquipedia, not needing specific advice on it.
Nor saying lower level players shouldnt ask for advice , or that they shouldn't get it, just adding another point towards the pile of why strategic advice is a lot less relevant for low level players than it is for say diamond\masters and up.
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The biggest mistake a lot of people seem to be making in this thread is simply the assumption that lower level players have to choose macro or strategy. As the OP pointed out, this is simply not the case. when I was learning about the game, watching streams helped me so much with simple things like defending bunker rushes, placing overlords, beating 6 pools, and other such things.
Also a lot of people do not understand to what extent simple composition wins are a problem at lower levels. I remember how I could just get broodlords against terran in silver and autowin because they simply had no clue what to do about them. I also remember in zvz when one person got unscouted mutas, they pretty much instantly won as well. These are things which have simple responses which many lower level players just don't have programmed into their heads.
Macro is always important, and everybody knows that, but strategy is not only a great deal funner than macro, but it does not take away from macro. I absolutely agree with the OP in this regard.
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On October 12 2011 06:08 hunger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 04:42 Alejandrisha wrote:On October 12 2011 04:36 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
I do agree; as someone who has coached lower league players, yes they can always improve their macro. I can always improve my macro. But often times their macro isn't what is keeping them from moving to the next league. Other things that are also very important:
-Build Order
-Battle Micro
-Scouting
-Over Turtling
-Dealing with Cheese (aka 6 pools, proxy 2 rax, proxy 2 gate, cannon rush, etc)
Then as you get a little higher you need things like positioning, sacrificing bases, harassing, multi prong attack/defense, multiple build orders, game sense.
That's why SC2 is so awesome, it's not just all about macro; it just happens to be that macro is a very good correlation to skill, as your macro improves typically all other aspects of your gameplay do as well. Bold- improving mechanics improves this stuff implicitly italics- this is not that important after you know when to "run away" or "fight" underline- the hell? better macro =/= better mechanics.
when people tell lower level players to improve their macro they actually mean mechanics
or maybe i'm giving the avg joe too much credit
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On October 12 2011 04:42 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 04:36 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
I do agree; as someone who has coached lower league players, yes they can always improve their macro. I can always improve my macro. But often times their macro isn't what is keeping them from moving to the next league. Other things that are also very important:
-Build Order
-Battle Micro
-Scouting
-Over Turtling
-Dealing with Cheese (aka 6 pools, proxy 2 rax, proxy 2 gate, cannon rush, etc)
Then as you get a little higher you need things like positioning, sacrificing bases, harassing, multi prong attack/defense, multiple build orders, game sense.
That's why SC2 is so awesome, it's not just all about macro; it just happens to be that macro is a very good correlation to skill, as your macro improves typically all other aspects of your gameplay do as well. Bold- improving mechanics improves this stuff implicitly italics- this is not that important after you know when to "run away" or "fight" underline- the hell?
It goes both ways though... you even posted in your guide that practicing your build order would help improve people's mechanics (which I agree with greatly) .
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Practicing a race's 'generic' build order (eg: Protoss 1 gate core into 3 gates) until it's pretty sharp is the first step in acknowledging your basic 'macro'. You'd want to develop it into your memory bank so that you do not have to think so much about 'what do i build next?" in your head therefore freeing up your 'RANDOM BRAIN ACCESS' space to do other things such as scouting, taking towers and more importantly, think what your enemy is doing and react to it.
Eventually, your memory bank for your macro (ie: build order) expands from 1 base to 2 base and you start to get a feel of your race's economy flow (ie: how many gates can I pump from 1 or 2 bases, how many barracks/facts/starports).
You learn this by paying attention to your mineral flow such as when you have 3 gates and on 2 bases, you find yourself starting to float more and more minerals even though you are making 3 units at a time whenever you possibly can, that's when you realise you need more gateways.
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It's simple really.
1. Scout
2. Build (macro)
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[I am not trying to be one of those silver guys who say, "but I play up to a diamond level..." Most of us know why we are in the level we are. We know our MACRO SUCKS but that doesnt mean we can't use strategy. Strategy wouldnt matter if I'm playing a much better player but in ladder were are evenly matched.
I think you (the OP) make one critically wrong assumption, which is that people at high level actually know how to play at low level.
The truth is - they don't. They know how to beat low level, of course, they know what you need to do to get out of low level, but they do not know how to play at low level using skills and knowledge of a low level player. It's a completely different game, with completely different strategies. And - here's the kicker - better macro beats every low level strategy. SC2 is a macro-oriented game, and in some aspects pretty simple - more stuff beats less stuff. If you want to have more stuff, you need macro. If you are on equal footing with your opponent macro-wise, then "strategy" comes into question.. but any strategic "tips" a pro can give you would either be too general and pointless (e.g. counter Colossus with Vikings) or help you improve your game 1% or even less, while better macro has potential to improve it 200%.
So, IMHO at least, "improve macro" is the best advice, period. It's dry, it's boring, it's not fun, it's lazy... but this doesn't change the fact that it tells you EXACTLY what you need to do to improve, and it tells you EXACTLY why you lost your last game, even though it appeared to you that your strategy was one that was lacking. If you want fun strategy tips you can try out to marginally improve your game, you must ask people from your own league or perhaps the one directly above... anything beyond that is a completely different game, one you can play only if (brace yourself).. improve your macro.
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EPT
