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zdragon
United States150 Posts
I see this idea pop up all the time, stop trying to primarily feedback ghosts. If you feedback ghosts, you got lucky. T mispositioned, moved his ghosts when he should have microed/scanned. Feedback's primary purpose is to counter medivac. It does a great job of shutting down a 100/100 unit, possibly with cargo inside. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3304 Posts
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fjjotizz
Sweden153 Posts
On October 01 2011 06:16 Thorzain wrote: I feel that TvP IS really micro intensive. EMP everything, move your units out of storms, focus fire individual colossi with vikings and kite zealots if he's zealot heavy. And while you're kiting zealots you have to move back your ghosts so that they dont all get killed in the blink of an eye. All these things at the same time. It's freaking hard if you ask me! and for the protoss? storm + a move =/ Perhaps move collosus away from vikings, in case you had bad positioning frmo the very start. it's not broken, it's just boring to play and watch kinda  | ||
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Nazza
Australia1654 Posts
OP you are spot on about how terran was playing in BW, except both harassment and timing attacks were used in all 3 matchups. (2/1 armory fast 3rd expo in TvP, and dropship play in TvZ). I just hate Dustin Browder when he says something dumb like "X race is the macro race" or "X race is the harass ment race". IMO all 3 races should be able to play different styles efficiently. | ||
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Sixotanaka
Australia191 Posts
On October 03 2011 11:13 zdragon wrote: Why do people think feedback is designed to counter ghost? I see this idea pop up all the time, stop trying to primarily feedback ghosts. If you feedback ghosts, you got lucky. T mispositioned, moved his ghosts when he should have microed/scanned. Feedback's primary purpose is to counter medivac. It does a great job of shutting down a 100/100 unit, possibly with cargo inside. Feedback is great, but Terrans have aoe feedback that can be cast at slightly longer range. 25 extra energy for +1 range, +2 radius. Each EMP probably does more damage than a feedback too. Ghosts can also be invisible and move pretty quick while my HT's are a self clumping group of slackers! On October 03 2011 11:23 Nazza wrote: I believe that SC2 should be designed from the ground up, first without things like MULEs or warpgates. If the game can be balanced and made fun at that level, then they can start thinking about things like macro mechanics. OP you are spot on about how terran was playing in BW, except both harassment and timing attacks were used in all 3 matchups. (2/1 armory fast 3rd expo in TvP, and dropship play in TvZ). I just hate Dustin Browder when he says something dumb like "X race is the macro race" or "X race is the harass ment race". IMO all 3 races should be able to play different styles efficiently. Warp gate isn't tosses macro mechanic. It's an attempt to band-aid our extremely lackluster units by being able to have them wherever we want. I don't think warp gate has been an issue for anyone decently skilled since the first month or two after release, except in PvP. | ||
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Banex
30 Posts
On October 03 2011 10:09 NicolBolas wrote: What is wrong with having one matchup without those Goddamned Siege Tanks in it? There are quite a few people in this thread who share this sentiment. But the fact of the matter is that the siege tank has been the backbone of the terran army since the starcraft 1 was released. Tanks are what terran has always been all about. Quite frankly, if you don't like the siege tank as a unit then you really are not a terran player at heart and should think about playing a different race. | ||
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flowSthead
1065 Posts
On October 03 2011 11:35 Banex wrote: There are quite a few people in this thread who share this sentiment. But the fact of the matter is that the siege tank has been the backbone of the terran army since the starcraft 1 was released. Tanks are what terran has always been all about. Quite frankly, if you don't like the siege tank as a unit then you really are not a terran player at heart and should think about playing a different race. Yes, because Banex is the decider of what makes a terran player. Man, I was so unsure about what race to play, but then I read your post and realized that because I didn't like siege tanks, I probably shouldn't play terran... By the way, in case you can't tell, that was sarcasm. I actually like siege tanks just fine, but the content of your post is ridiculous. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
The key word is uninteresting MMMVG vs Collsi/Gateway has almost zero strategy to it and is extrmeley uninteresting. OP was suggesting tanks as a way to make the MU interesting but since he used the "BW" word alot of people gave him shit. Now while im with the OP and many other Terrans that would love to see the tank and a "BW" Style TvP. It doesnt mean that has to be the fix. As I said earlier, the MU could turn into Thor/Hellion/Raven/BC still be tankless and be 1000 times more interesting than it currently is. | ||
Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
I do hope for example that colossus become very immobile units in HotS so they can start fulfilling the same role as the tank/lurker did, rather than the opposite of that which is what it is now, with unit-walking and cliff-walking, which is the main reason why games involving colossi tend to come down to huge army vs army battles. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
I think space control is somewhat a separate discussion. You have methods of space control but its food inefficient in this game which is probably why blizzard published small maps initially. They realized that you cannot control a large amount of space anymore with 3 food tanks and no mines. The only real space control unit in the traditional sense (food cheap) are Terran and vikings for air. Ground wise, you can control space but you have to invest so much in doing it that it becomes a risky assumption. Protoss has a death ball which is only more relatively more mobile than BW tanks. But a Protoss deathball isn't world ending like the giant river of tanks from BW so it kinda balances out. Like I said, I wouldn't say area control is dead, its just not as strong as it could be because Blizzard restricted the amount of space one can control heavily. I think TvP doesn't so much come down to space control but it comes down to lack of options other than MMMVG. If space control was wholely absent, Terran wouldn't have to do multi-prong drops to avoid the Protoss death ball. | ||
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sunman1g
United States334 Posts
i personally like the marauder, it adds a lot of variety to every match up, TvT and TvZ too. there's tons of people who like the marauder yet so many talk about about it like if EVERYONE hated it. that's simply not true. and I am talking about Terran users. ... without it, you wouldn't be able to go bio vs mech or pure bio vs Z. I do not want a slow-long game with 84283 bases, 242834 tanks every time I have to play. Mech is boring shit. On a side note, I am so happy ST_Bomber also dislikes mech he stated in an interview that "Mech in TvT is extremely boring" and that he will try to use bio as much as he can, he will try to change the current trend. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On October 03 2011 13:05 sunman1g wrote: god.. people quoting artosis almost literally regarding the marauder makes me laugh every time. i personally like the marauder, it adds a lot of variety to every match up, TvT and TvZ too. there's tons of people who like the marauder yet so many talk about about it like if EVERYONE hated it. that's simply not true. and I am talking about Terran users. ... without it, you wouldn't be able to go bio vs mech or pure bio vs Z. I do not want a slow-long game with 84283 bases, 242834 tanks every time I have to play. Mech is boring shit. On a side note, I am so happy ST_Bomber also dislikes mech he stated in an interview that "Mech in TvT is extremely boring" and that he will try to use bio as much as he can, he will try to change the current trend. Well the sentiment probably comes from Beta when people only build marauders, roaches, and stalkers. Marauders were regarded as imba and a dull unit.. | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On October 03 2011 11:03 MrSandman wrote: So basically, this should be Brood War? I honestly don't get why people spend half of their time suggesting that starcraft 2 become a game that had about 7 years of professional gamers testing builds and working out strategies. I know it seems like things are hard or stupid now but we're still in the early stages of the games development. Please stop hoping for a massive unit change in the expansion or some sort of super buff/nerf. I think Blizzard's made it clear that atm they're only doing changes to affect how certain units are used (infestor fungal change) and the occasional big one to change a stagnant match-up (Pvp for instance). Saying that a certain match-up/unit/composition is unsuitable or dumb in terms of the whole game seems really arrogant to me. We won't know they're true use until all the options are fully explored. You quoted vultures, remember when people thought they were useless in bw? No terrans would use them and now if a terran doesn't players get suspicious. Hellions and ravens are the same for sc2. I say wait a few years for things to play out (It's been lesss than 18 months since relase) and then start complaining. No, it shouldn't or wouldn't be brood war just because terran players want to play something else than mmmvg in tvp. It's like people forget that the biggest advances from BW to SC2 are user inferface related and graphics - the actual gameplay isn' that different. Most of the new units don't actually improve SC2 over BW. By saying we want mech in tvp, because it's simply more fun and more in tune with terran from a conceptual point of view, that does not mean we want a SC2BW-like game. I like SC2 supply depots, I like auto mining, I like SC2 unit selection. But I fucking hate spamming the D key, I hate warp gates and stupid hard-hard counter units lik immortals - and I hate not being able to use tanks as the backbone of my army. It just doesn't feel right. | ||
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methematics
United States392 Posts
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MrSandman
Australia188 Posts
On October 03 2011 12:41 Zelniq wrote: This guy gets it. Tanks, and other units that control space (like lurkers/tanks did in bw) are what made starcraft such a good game. They make various RTS principles important, such as map design/layout, controlling areas on the map, the 'dance' between strongly held areas and mobile forces circumventing said areas, which in turn spreads the defender more thin as the number of bases increases, promoting more smaller engagements around the map rather than just a giant blob wars. I do hope for example that colossus become very immobile units in HotS so they can start fulfilling the same role as the tank/lurker did, rather than the opposite of that which is what it is now, with unit-walking and cliff-walking, which is the main reason why games involving colossi tend to come down to huge army vs army battles. Let me preface this by saying I have a lot of respect for you as a member of this community Zelniq. Yours is a name that pops up with "that was cool" in my head with bans and things  So...big fan...But I have to say this is not brood war. I think the game will progress a great deal when we all focus on it as a new entity with only lore connections to brood war. The maps, units and main principals are simliar in some ways but things such as "the dance" are not quite there yet for sc2. There will be eventually, as players become more confident in moving their forces around the map and having the right composition, but this is so early on in the game that I think it's a little unfair to expect people to be able to make decisions/micro/strategize at the level of brood war even as early as 2008. | ||
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zeehar
Korea (South)3804 Posts
On October 01 2011 06:12 love.less wrote: bring back 60 damage to all armor types and remove smart firing i think id settle for that ^^ it wasn't even like that in bw... they did 70, but 50% to small units at 75% to medium. 60 to all would be horrible. horrible horrible. noone would be able to attack a tank line if it were the case. | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
It's not that the mech army is weak. Cost for cost, nothing beats a maxed mech army on the ground. It's just to much of a commitment to attack something. It leaves terran open for counter attacks, and opponents could just sack the expo and expand somewhere else. If the early terran timings weren't that strong -> the maps could be made smaller -> mech pushes would become more viable. | ||
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Caloreen
Canada5 Posts
I realize that's a lot of gas being invested into just keeping yourself alive, but I'm just throwing ideas out there. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On October 03 2011 13:05 sunman1g wrote: god.. people quoting artosis almost literally regarding the marauder makes me laugh every time. . People aren't quoting artosis, there are a ton of people that hate the marauder, and surprisingly a lot that do hate the marauder are actually TERRAN players! | ||
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