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I've used the search function but cannot find any similar tactics (please delete if this has been discussed before)
If playing a 2v2 and your teammate quits immediately, you gain control of his mining units but you also gain his starting minerals (50) if he has not built a drone/scv/probe
Today I played around with this a bit. Both choosing terran to test it out.
-My teammate puts his scv's on minerals, does not build an scv, he then quits the game immediately
-I put my scv's on minerals, I don't build an scv but grab one and instantly place a supply depot (4 or 5 seconds into the game, obviously my teammate quitting gives me 50 plus the 50 I have)
-At the same time I take 2 scv's and run them down the map
-The moment that fast supply depot is finished I can place one barracks approx halfway down the map (as far as 2 scv's can make it in the time it takes to finish a supply depot) and a second barracks very soon after (Makarax style), while these go up I can actually afford to build more scvs
-I have barracks and marines long before they can have any. Can attack right away, attack in a group, place the fastest bunker possible, etc.
I'm fiddling around with this, the timings are ridiculous, has this been done before?
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It's funny how broken that is, do it as much as possible so blizzard patches.
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your Country52797 Posts
Your precious thread got closed.
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If someone quits at the beginning of the game, it's an immediate red flag. If the remaining player is a terran, I would immediately send out a scout to look for proxies. I'm sure the two player team can fight off the rush with workers, provided they scout.
That said, it's still a powerfully strategy and it's inherently unfair that one player is getting a double income before the other team can trade resources. Keep abusing and see how far it takes you. 
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seems very nice tactic, but wont it be better as z? while doing earliest 6pool possible and getting fast queen and gas for speed maybe? ;p actually its like a 12pool, so u should have the money to build a queen and get speed! :D
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seriously, what is the fun in doing something so stupid? why do people promote lame strategies?
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On August 31 2011 10:52 dAPhREAk wrote:
seriously, what is the fun in doing something so stupid? why do people promote lame strategies?
The fun is in winning! Silly.
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lol cheesy weird tacts are fun, well atleast to some people, if you do not like to do weird cheesy stuff do NOT read this!
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I remember an older thread about this but the strategy was to be zerg and get a 6 pool.
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On August 31 2011 10:33 Rotodyne wrote:
It's funny how broken that is, do it as much as possible so blizzard patches.
Lol agreed.... abuse imbalance gangstAAA
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This is awesome thank you so much for sharing this by far the most fun 2s cheese ( although i do a 6 pool variant with double zerg) Such great bm responses
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zerg is great because you can make a pool at 24 seconds then make an ovie while pool is making and send a scouting drone right when pool starts, then make 6 lings and a queen right when pool pops, and then after making a set of lings or so you can drop the 2nd players pool, and just break/deny wall in with initial lings until your big waves comes .... Genius strat man  thx again
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There was a thread about this, but it was tailored to early baneling bust. Really, it's unfair, but part of the game. Maybe blizzard will change it so if someone leaves in the first minute of the game, the other team can trade resources immediately.
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precisely why i wall off while cutting scvs if i see 1 of the opponent player quit.
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How do cannon rushes work with this?
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Or the retarded 3v3 ZZT, T quits ASAP, one Z queues an SCV and the other cancels it which apparently shares resources before it should be possible. Repeat until 200 minerals, throw down a pool (original thread said at 0:16) - gives big bunch o lings much earlier than a "normal" 6 pool.
There is supposed to be a thread on this but cant find it, sorry.
As EatThePath said - when it happens, scout very aggressively. With the latest 2v2 map pool it should be easier to hold of this kind of crap since more (all) bases are shared or have close ramps... You dont have a replay, do you?
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I'd kind of be expecting it after I see the first guy quit though...
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On August 31 2011 18:20 Grubbegrabbn wrote:
Or the retarded 3v3 ZZT, T quits ASAP, one Z queues an SCV and the other cancels it which apparently shares resources before it should be possible. Repeat until 200 minerals, throw down a pool (original thread said at 0:16) - gives big bunch o lings much earlier than a "normal" 6 pool.
hooooly jesus fuck that's insane. team games are so broken LOL
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this is a verry lame strategy to bypass the imposibility to trade minerals during the first 5 minutes
its basicly bug abuse/cheating imo
dont see it to often on the ladder luckily but if 1 opponent leaves at start prepare for a huge and verry fast rush
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Retarded tactic for retarded people with no skill involved. Happened to me over half a year ago, so it's definitely not new. I see "cheese" viable in team games, but something like this? Just rediculous. If it makes you feel better and/or more "skilled", go on and do it...
Btw. do it with a TP team (P leaving) and your eco is sky-rocketing due to CB.
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It's happened to me where the T's partner left and it become Me + my teammate v T who just went mass marines. We were on the edge constantly throughout the game and only just won. At the end we checked the replay for Barracks numbers he had like 16, 8 with reactors 8 without.
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This has been known about for quite a while but is not actually used that often. This usually happens with a Z* team where the * leaves and the Z 6pools, with double the eco of a normal 6 pool there are alot more lings and they arrive earlier.
The interesting thing is though that if that player wins the 2v1 both get it as a win, this has lead to 'farmers' cropping up, players who will start a 2v2 game with random ally and then just leave and start another game, so they can get as many games as possible very quickly so they get portraites.
As others have said, it's a lame strat and a red flag to any player who knows about it, better to play a straight up 2v2 imo
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Things like this are just dumb and ruining 2v2 and 3v3/4v4 as a whole. (Never played 3v3, or 4v4 myself but as others has stated the "Double 6pool" 3v3 build).
I guess you really won't see it in the higher leagues of 2v2, But I may be wrong? What rank and league are you in 2v2? Useally I either see straight up games or people just all in as soon as they can. Ie: Proxy Gate+2 Rax. But this is a whole new level of ignorance, I reliaze that if your partner leaves and you don't get their income its just GG, No matter what you do. But Blizzard should fix this, I would assume you do it with a friend but when I'm trying to ladder up on 2v2 and my partner insta leaves at the start it gets really annoying, Not just because I'm 1v2 but because I know if I win then he wins.
Blizzard should implement a system for this.
Example:
If you leave more than 3-5~ games in a row befor the 5~ minute mark you should be banned from 2v2s for a day, I believe 5~ minutes is longer than what most cheeses hit so you shouldn't get 3-5 games in a row cheesed each game and get banned out of 2v2s. It would really fix stupid shit like this.
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abusing game mechanics to get wins is fun for people? i mean if winning while not being good or using skill is fun why not just put the game on easy and play vs ai?? you could even put 2 or 3 easy ai on and show then show your friends your leet replays of winning
but people have been disconnecting for faster resources for so long now i cant believe people are just now "testing" this out lol, oh well, whatever boosts your self esteem i guess
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cheese is fun, not cause it might be imbalanced or gets u easy wins, it is just fun ^^ 6pool is fun, and super fast 6pool is also cool lol i think at 4v4 where 3 insta leaves and so u build pool at 0:00 - 0:05
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i dont know what is wrong with all of you people bitching on this thread about people doing this not showing any skill or whatever. I enjoy playing a good straight up macro game as much as the next player, but doing rediculous cheese builds is fun in a different way.
Doing cheese builds are fun because of the crazy BM you get from people, and the interesting non-standard games that go along with it.
I dont do a build like this because I want free wins on the 2s ladder (who actually cares about the 2s ladder.. i feel very sorry for the poor souls that think they are playing the 2s ladder competitively)....im also not doing a build like this because i think it is going to improve my game.
Builds like these blow off steam, and if you really want to get technical they actually do improve your micro and allow you to see how other players successfully or fail to respond to your cheese.
To the players who say just play against the AI you are idiots, if you cannot see the difference between executing this build against a computer or executing it against 2 people who bm the shit out of you in a hilarious fashion because they are so frustrated they are losing their precious 2s game... ( which they were probably just going to double 6 rax you anyways)
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On September 01 2011 05:31 Communism wrote:
i dont know what is wrong with all of you people bitching on this thread about people doing this not showing any skill or whatever. I enjoy playing a good straight up macro game as much as the next player, but doing rediculous cheese builds is fun in a different way.
Doing cheese builds are fun because of the crazy BM you get from people, and the interesting non-standard games that go along with it.
I dont do a build like this because I want free wins on the 2s ladder (who actually cares about the 2s ladder.. i feel very sorry for the poor souls that think they are playing the 2s ladder competitively)....im also not doing a build like this because i think it is going to improve my game.
Builds like these blow off steam, and if you really want to get technical they actually do improve your micro and allow you to see how other players successfully or fail to respond to your cheese.
To the players who say just play against the AI you are idiots, if you cannot see the difference between executing this build against a computer or executing it against 2 people who bm the shit out of you in a hilarious fashion because they are so frustrated they are losing their precious 2s game... ( which they were probably just going to double 6 rax you anyways)
They are just expressing their opinion like you are. Nothing aggressive is needed.
And for my input, it seems like a broken strat, thanks for discovering it.
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the reason why i was aggressive is because this thread was started to discuss this build concept in a constructive way, and then it was flooded by people who were aggressive just saying that people who do this are stupid basically, so I got back in their face. If they want to talk about how much they hate people who cheese in 2s or do this build or whatever they should start their own thread where people who actually care will go and read it.
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I thought this was pretty well known.
If an opponent leaves the game the moment it starts, I know something suspicious is going to happen.
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On August 31 2011 10:52 dAPhREAk wrote:
seriously, what is the fun in doing something so stupid? why do people promote lame strategies?
Winning in novel ways is "lame"? naw
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Lol at all the rage. Im master 2s and have never actually seen this. If some leaves immediately normally we assume mass marine cheese if there is a T, super ealry pool is Z, and if double P we just lol and win no matter what they do.
This is interesting, i really like the 3v3 ZZX auto lings lol
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On September 01 2011 05:46 Communism wrote:
the reason why i was aggressive is because this thread was started to discuss this build concept in a constructive way, and then it was flooded by people who were aggressive just saying that people who do this are stupid basically, so I got back in their face. If they want to talk about how much they hate people who cheese in 2s or do this build or whatever they should start their own thread where people who actually care will go and read it.
I understand, i meant for everyone, to stop the aggressive posture and actually give somewhat useful input or at least, don't flame the op which does nothing.
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I barely even know how to respond to some of the people here.
This isn't a "tactic."
It isn't a "strategy."
It's not even a "cheese."
IT'S FUCKING CHEATING. Period. Get out with stuff like...
On August 31 2011 10:57 moskonia wrote:
lol cheesy weird tacts are fun, well atleast to some people, if you do not like to do weird cheesy stuff do NOT read this!
On September 01 2011 05:56 Vei wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 10:52 dAPhREAk wrote:
seriously, what is the fun in doing something so stupid? why do people promote lame strategies? Winning in novel ways is "lame"? naw
On August 31 2011 17:46 Communism wrote:
This is awesome thank you so much for sharing this by far the most fun 2s cheese ( although i do a 6 pool variant with double zerg) Such great bm responses
lol seriously "BM responses?" Newsflash, when you cheat and somebody gets pissed and swears at you, they arn't the ones with "bad manner."
Once again, this is actual "cheating." I know there arn't many serious 2v2 tournaments, but if 2v2 was serious, i guarantee this wouldn't be permitted. If somebody were to try this at that PTSL thing, i all but guarantee it wouldn't be allowed.
It's cheating because it lets you do things that are PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE in normal play. Blizzard put the 5 minute resource trading ban in for a reason, and this uses an exploit to bypass that. You can start producing crap and get units / cannons / whatever out faster than normally physically possible, and you can simultaneously tech faster than physically possible. You can start with the faster than normally possible 6 pool from hell, and still follow up with a faster than normally possible muta rush.
This gives you a HUGE advantage over any team that doesn't have a player quit, and is therefore bound by blizzards intentional 5 minute ban on resource trading. I accept that so called cheese is part of the game. I use them myself a decent amount. But there's a huge difference between that and exploit the game to do things that's it's physically impossible for the other team to do.
edit:
On September 01 2011 05:46 Communism wrote:
the reason why i was aggressive is because this thread was started to discuss this build concept in a constructive way, and then it was flooded by people who were aggressive just saying that people who do this are stupid basically, so I got back in their face. If they want to talk about how much they hate people who cheese in 2s or do this build or whatever they should start their own thread where people who actually care will go and read it.
yeah but you are trying to have a "constructive discussion" about cheating. And it's important that people who might not realize how messed up this is don't read this thread and think "sound cool, i'll try that" without realizing how wrong it is.
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On September 01 2011 06:22 Chance55 wrote:I barely even know how to respond to some of the people here. This isn't a "tactic." It isn't a "strategy." It's not even a "cheese." IT'S FUCKING CHEATING. Period. Get out with stuff like... Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 10:57 moskonia wrote:
lol cheesy weird tacts are fun, well atleast to some people, if you do not like to do weird cheesy stuff do NOT read this! Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 05:56 Vei wrote:On August 31 2011 10:52 dAPhREAk wrote:
seriously, what is the fun in doing something so stupid? why do people promote lame strategies? Winning in novel ways is "lame"? naw Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 17:46 Communism wrote:
This is awesome thank you so much for sharing this by far the most fun 2s cheese ( although i do a 6 pool variant with double zerg) Such great bm responses lol seriously "BM responses?" Newsflash, when you cheat and somebody gets pissed and swears at you, they arn't the ones with "bad manner." Once again, this is actual "cheating." I know there arn't many serious 2v2 tournaments, but if 2v2 was serious, i guarantee this wouldn't be permitted. If somebody were to try this at that PTSL thing, i all but guarantee it wouldn't be allowed. It's cheating because it lets you do things that are PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE in normal play. Blizzard put the 5 minute resource trading ban in for a reason, and this uses an exploit to bypass that. You can start producing crap and get units / cannons / whatever out faster than normally physically possible, and you can simultaneously tech faster than physically possible. You can start with the faster than normally possible 6 pool from hell, and still follow up with a faster than normally possible muta rush. This gives you a HUGE advantage over any team that doesn't have a player quit, and is therefore bound by blizzards intentional 5 minute ban on resource trading. I accept that so called cheese is part of the game. I use them myself a decent amount. But there's a huge difference between that and exploit the game to do things that's it's physically impossible for the other team to do. edit: Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 05:46 Communism wrote:
the reason why i was aggressive is because this thread was started to discuss this build concept in a constructive way, and then it was flooded by people who were aggressive just saying that people who do this are stupid basically, so I got back in their face. If they want to talk about how much they hate people who cheese in 2s or do this build or whatever they should start their own thread where people who actually care will go and read it.
yeah but you are trying to have a "constructive discussion" about cheating. And it's important that people who might not realize how messed up this is don't read this thread and think "sound cool, i'll try that" without realizing how wrong it is.
Dont know if trolling....or just stupid
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/MuzTx1/IDFP.jpg?t=1268104835
On topic, this is easily stopped as it cant not be scouted due to the drop lol
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Currently on the #1 2v2 team in AM, I have never seen anyone leave at the start of a game to exploit early resource sharing.
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Seriously guys? This again?
The strategy isn't even good. It cripples your economy and you have less people controlling. I have played against this several times and it never came close to working.
Quit qqing over a problem that doesn't exist!
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To the people complaining,
This really is no different than any other cheese, except it has a blatant and immediate warning sign.
To play starcraft well is to play it responsively. You see one player drop right at the beginning? Your thoughts should be 90% 2 1 base all-ins are coming. Possibly faster than normally possible. If the person plays standard he is basically asking to lose.
Send an early scout, get a decently early pool/rax/gate, and mentally prepare for a crisis.
If it's super-cheesy you might need to pull some workers, just like a lot of 1v1 all-ins.
As soon as a player drops you no longer need to worry about playing a normal game, so why on earth would you not adapt?
If you complain about cheese that is scoutable and adaptable, then sorry to be blunt, you have room for improvement.
To the people who like the build/OP:
Cool strategy, When a teammate drops I usually try to do a quick timing but I never thought of building a supply depot immediately. At the very least it's a good strategy for terrans to know if their teammate happens to drop. Thanks!
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 01 2011 06:22 Chance55 wrote:I barely even know how to respond to some of the people here. This isn't a "tactic." It isn't a "strategy." It's not even a "cheese." IT'S FUCKING CHEATING. Period. Get out with stuff like... Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 10:57 moskonia wrote:
lol cheesy weird tacts are fun, well atleast to some people, if you do not like to do weird cheesy stuff do NOT read this! Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 05:56 Vei wrote:On August 31 2011 10:52 dAPhREAk wrote:
seriously, what is the fun in doing something so stupid? why do people promote lame strategies? Winning in novel ways is "lame"? naw Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 17:46 Communism wrote:
This is awesome thank you so much for sharing this by far the most fun 2s cheese ( although i do a 6 pool variant with double zerg) Such great bm responses lol seriously "BM responses?" Newsflash, when you cheat and somebody gets pissed and swears at you, they arn't the ones with "bad manner." Once again, this is actual "cheating." I know there arn't many serious 2v2 tournaments, but if 2v2 was serious, i guarantee this wouldn't be permitted. If somebody were to try this at that PTSL thing, i all but guarantee it wouldn't be allowed. It's cheating because it lets you do things that are PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE in normal play. Blizzard put the 5 minute resource trading ban in for a reason, and this uses an exploit to bypass that. You can start producing crap and get units / cannons / whatever out faster than normally physically possible, and you can simultaneously tech faster than physically possible. You can start with the faster than normally possible 6 pool from hell, and still follow up with a faster than normally possible muta rush. This gives you a HUGE advantage over any team that doesn't have a player quit, and is therefore bound by blizzards intentional 5 minute ban on resource trading. I accept that so called cheese is part of the game. I use them myself a decent amount. But there's a huge difference between that and exploit the game to do things that's it's physically impossible for the other team to do. edit: Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 05:46 Communism wrote:
the reason why i was aggressive is because this thread was started to discuss this build concept in a constructive way, and then it was flooded by people who were aggressive just saying that people who do this are stupid basically, so I got back in their face. If they want to talk about how much they hate people who cheese in 2s or do this build or whatever they should start their own thread where people who actually care will go and read it.
yeah but you are trying to have a "constructive discussion" about cheating. And it's important that people who might not realize how messed up this is don't read this thread and think "sound cool, i'll try that" without realizing how wrong it is.
I'm not sure where exactly you'd consider it cheating, this strategy uses a series of in-game features and mechanics to achieve a goal but does so in a manner that has obvious cons as well as obvious benefits.
In order for it to be actually cheating, players would have to be getting something for nothing. As it is, it's just a strategy that sacrifices your teammate early, theoretically halving any long-term macro efficiency in favour of a really early rush strat that -can- be stopped, but would be very unexpected because of how committed and how impossible it seems.
Really, calling this cheating is like calling a Zerg at 210/200 supply a hacker. Sure, it seems devious and like they're bending the rules a little, but ultimately what they did -did- cost them something and wasn't free.
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This is OK but I recommend going Gladiator style 4v4. I think you know what I mean.
edit: I'm not sure if it's "cheating" right now. Blizz won't let you trade mins for the first 5 mins and I'd think by now if they thought this was broken they would withhold minerals from a teammate who left for 5 mins. For now, do as you will.
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Everyone knows team games are imbalanced anyway. Things like 1base muta with donated gas already abuse the resource trading system. This is just taking it to an extreme, and I think it's pretty creative. It's just another silly all-in that works in team games and has no relevance anywhere else. Besides, if you're an experienced 2v2 player you'll know that something is very fishy. The reason people are claiming that it's "cheating" is because they're still thinking in terms of 1v1 builds, which have no relevance in team games anyway. Cannonrush/6pool cheese is actually a real build in 2v2, along with triple 5rax marine rush, 5gate zealot+8pool, etc.
And please don't take the 2v2 ladder seriously. I was rank 1 diamond for a while doing nothing but triple proxy rax lifting into their main.
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On September 01 2011 07:59 CowMoo wrote:
And please don't take the 2v2 ladder seriously. I was rank 1 diamond for a while doing nothing but triple proxy rax lifting into their main.
This, seriously. I don't know how anyone takes the 2v2 ladder even remotely serious. Or any of the team game modes really.
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team games are so silly 
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is this tactic banned in the EG team cup? anyone know?
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Well the easy way to fix this is to add back in the 2 minute rule that existed in Brood War; I rather miss that 
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I've done a similar build to this with mass muta in 4v4. No one leaves, but everyone just feeds the zerg player for quick muta. Works great. If there are no Terrans on the opposing team, it's auto-win.
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On September 01 2011 08:11 WTFZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 07:59 CowMoo wrote:
And please don't take the 2v2 ladder seriously. I was rank 1 diamond for a while doing nothing but triple proxy rax lifting into their main. This, seriously. I don't know how anyone takes the 2v2 ladder even remotely serious. Or any of the team game modes really.
Being diamond is crap. You make it sound slike you cheesed and were good. There are people who cheesed 1v1 to masters. Your point is invalid
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I've seen this before. In fact in 3v3 me and the other guys just threw down 10 raxes and beat the shit out of the other 3 lol. That's could be one reason why supply before depot, and 5 more sec for barrack. Terran in early game is just too strong.
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Once again, this is actual "cheating." I know there arn't many serious 2v2 tournaments, but if 2v2 was serious, i guarantee this wouldn't be permitted. If somebody were to try this at that PTSL thing, i all but guarantee it wouldn't be allowed.
It's cheating because it lets you do things that are PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE in normal play. Blizzard put the 5 minute resource trading ban in for a reason, and this uses an exploit to bypass that. You can start producing crap and get units / cannons / whatever out faster than normally physically possible, and you can simultaneously tech faster than physically possible. You can start with the faster than normally possible 6 pool from hell, and still follow up with a faster than normally possible muta rush.
This gives you a HUGE advantage over any team that doesn't have a player quit, and is therefore bound by blizzards intentional 5 minute ban on resource trading. I accept that so called cheese is part of the game. I use them myself a decent amount. But there's a huge difference between that and exploit the game to do things that's it's physically impossible for the other team to do.
I presume you recently lost to this because you were too stupid to respond to the disconnect at 0:01, maybe even saying "lol easy win" in team chat? Seriously, why get so upset? It's not even good. It's worse than pretty much any normal cheese, plus you get the insane warning signal.
Imagine doing a planetary fortress rush, but not only are you doing a terrible cheese that only works against bads, a message flashes on your opponents screen saying "He's doing a planetary fortress rush!"
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On September 01 2011 08:57 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:Show nested quote +Once again, this is actual "cheating." I know there arn't many serious 2v2 tournaments, but if 2v2 was serious, i guarantee this wouldn't be permitted. If somebody were to try this at that PTSL thing, i all but guarantee it wouldn't be allowed.
It's cheating because it lets you do things that are PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE in normal play. Blizzard put the 5 minute resource trading ban in for a reason, and this uses an exploit to bypass that. You can start producing crap and get units / cannons / whatever out faster than normally physically possible, and you can simultaneously tech faster than physically possible. You can start with the faster than normally possible 6 pool from hell, and still follow up with a faster than normally possible muta rush.
This gives you a HUGE advantage over any team that doesn't have a player quit, and is therefore bound by blizzards intentional 5 minute ban on resource trading. I accept that so called cheese is part of the game. I use them myself a decent amount. But there's a huge difference between that and exploit the game to do things that's it's physically impossible for the other team to do. I presume you recently lost to this because you were too stupid to respond to the disconnect at 0:01, maybe even saying "lol easy win" in team chat? Seriously, why get so upset? It's not even good. It's worse than pretty much any normal cheese, plus you get the insane warning signal. Imagine doing a planetary fortress rush, but not only are you doing a terrible cheese that only works against bads, a message flashes on your opponents scream saying "He's doing a planetary fortress rush!"
lol this is so true
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On September 01 2011 07:15 droit wrote:
To play starcraft well is to play it responsively. You see one player drop right at the beginning? Your thoughts should be 90% 2 1 base all-ins are coming. Possibly faster than normally possible. If the person plays standard he is basically asking to lose.
Send an early scout, get a decently early pool/rax/gate, and mentally prepare for a crisis.
If it's super-cheesy you might need to pull some workers, just like a lot of 1v1 all-ins.
As soon as a player drops you no longer need to worry about playing a normal game, so why on earth would you not adapt?
If you complain about cheese that is scoutable and adaptable, then sorry to be blunt, you have room for improvement.
I was about to write a similar comment, I see it exactly the same way. Using game mechanics in a way it was not expected by Blizzard is suddenly cheating? Was the guy cheating who invented mule drops to repair tanks and thors on the front line? Was the guy cheating who invented the extractor trick to get an extra drone? I wouldn't say so and this is the same thing. You take the options the game offers you and utilize it as best you can.
If Blizzard comes to the conclusion that this mechanic is imbalanced, they will address it with a patch. Like they do it with ramp vision in 1.4.0. Although no-one complained that people were cheating when they used the sight range to blink over force fielded ramps and other tricks.
I like the idea of the OP although I never tried it myself. I guess people flaming in this thread are just afraid they might encounter this on the ladder and have no way to deal with this "new" strategy. Instead of flaming I suggest trying to find ways to beat it - that's how you get the ladder points.
There is one open question for me. Someone said that both players get a win if they succeed. I thought Blizzard patched those farming issues because so many people played 4v4s and simply left right away to get free wins. Don't you have to fulfill certain conditions to get a win towards an achievement?
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On September 01 2011 07:15 droit wrote:
To play starcraft well is to play it responsively. You see one player drop right at the beginning? Your thoughts should be 90% 2 1 base all-ins are coming. Possibly faster than normally possible. If the person plays standard he is basically asking to lose.
Send an early scout, get a decently early pool/rax/gate, and mentally prepare for a crisis.
If it's super-cheesy you might need to pull some workers, just like a lot of 1v1 all-ins.
As soon as a player drops you no longer need to worry about playing a normal game, so why on earth would you not adapt?
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You make it sound like anybody who loses to this probably opened up with a fast expo or something and then was shocked when they got hit by an early rush. "Oh just make an earlier gate, be ready to pull a few workers, and it's easy." This can be WAY more powerful than a "regular cheese," and easily overwhelm you even if you attempt to prepare. Plus unlike a normal 6 pool or something, it can be followed up with a decent economy and teching thats faster than normally possible.
On September 01 2011 07:42 Staboteur wrote:
I'm not sure where exactly you'd consider it cheating, this strategy uses a series of in-game features and mechanics to achieve a goal but does so in a manner that has obvious cons as well as obvious benefits.
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in-game features? what? "Leaving the game" is not an in game feature. This exploits a non in game feature to circumvent an in game mechanic. You arn't allowed to trade resources in the first five minutes. THAT is the in game mechanic.
On September 01 2011 08:57 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
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I presume you recently lost to this because you were too stupid to respond to the disconnect at 0:01, maybe even saying "lol easy win" in team chat? Seriously, why get so upset? It's not even good. It's worse than pretty much any normal cheese, plus you get the insane warning signal.
Imagine doing a planetary fortress rush, but not only are you doing a terrible cheese that only works against bads, a message flashes on your opponents screen saying "He's doing a planetary fortress rush!"
No, i try and prepare just in case when somebody disconnects really fast.
And no, it's not terrible, it's capable of being very overpowered. If you've played versions of it that seemed shitty, i would speculate that those were people who abused this feature to rank up far ahead of how good the players actually were, until even this couldn't carry them anymore. Either that or somebody just dropped right at the beginning, and their partner just tried to randomly try and instantly transition into this. But with equal skill players this can be very very powerful.
On September 01 2011 09:09 Dementophobia wrote:
... Using game mechanics in a way it was not expected by Blizzard is suddenly cheating? Was the guy cheating who invented mule drops to repair tanks and thors on the front line? Was the guy cheating who invented the extractor trick to get an extra drone? I wouldn't say so and this is the same thing. You take the options the game offers you and utilize it as best you can.
If Blizzard comes to the conclusion that this mechanic is imbalanced, they will address it with a patch. Like they do it with ramp vision in 1.4.0. Although no-one complained that people were cheating when they used the sight range to blink over force fielded ramps and other tricks.
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On September 01 2011 07:42 Staboteur wrote:
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Really, calling this cheating is like calling a Zerg at 210/200 supply a hacker. Sure, it seems devious and like they're bending the rules a little, but ultimately what they did -did- cost them something and wasn't free.
No resource trading before 5 minutes is clearly the blizzard intended game mechanic. If you want to try and abuse that with in game mechanics which are part of the game, that's fine. For example, you can do some very limited early game "resource sharing" by building your ally an extractor, saving them not only the minerals for the building, but a drone for zerg or scv mining time for terran. That's fine because that uses actual gameplay.
Same thing with getting a 210 army as zerg. It may push the clearly intended 200 army limit, but it does so using normal game mechanics. Same thing with blinking up the ramp and all that stuff dementophobia talked about. but...
But "exiting the game" is NOT AN IN GAME MECHANIC. That would be like if you got into a non production near draw situation, and your team had a floating building and a warprism with some DTs while the enemy army was guarding their remaining building. So you had your teammate quit and speed through the replay to see if they had an observer left. It sounds like some of you guys would simply call that "clever scouting in a way that blizzard didn't intend."
Not to mention in all that other crap, the other side can do the exact same stuff. No matter how cheesy or lame your strat is, both sides can at least do the same thing (after accounting for different races). Their zerg can 6 pool,your zerg can 6 pool. Their protoss can high ground / low ground cannon your mineral line, your protoss can do the same thing to them. Their terrans can do that 3 rax with the OC supply calldown build... so can your terrans. They can share resources before 5 minutes... you can OH WAIT, YOU CAN'T DO THAT.
That's why it's cheating. Not only are you using a non game mechanic to exploit the 5 minute rule, but you end up with a unique situation where even if you have the same race makeup, one team can do things that are physically impossible for the other team to do
Besides, I know there isn't a lot of serious 2v2, but I virtually guarantee that if somebody tries this in the PTSL thing going on right now, it wouldn't be allowed. If MLG did 2v2, or NASL did 2v2, or whatever, there's no way they would allow a "strategy" that involves one player quitting to to an exploit and gain an advantage.
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Don't know what's best, people reading this and abusing the hell ouf of it that way blizzard does something to prevent this kind of thing, or delete the thread so only few people keep doing it but might not be solved any time soon.
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On September 03 2011 12:27 Chance55 wrote:
in-game features? what? "Leaving the game" is not an in game feature. This exploits a non in game feature to circumvent an in game mechanic. You arn't allowed to trade resources in the first five minutes. THAT is the in game mechanic.
Nope!
Because arguing on the internet is cool, I'll respond.
A -feature- of team games is that when your ally leaves, his remaining and future resources are distributed between any remaining players. This is a feature of the game. A feature.
It happens every game. Naturally. Intended.
What you're saying is that your teammate is not allowed to leave the game knowing of this feature in an effort to provide you with an advantage in the early game at the cost of his participation in the rest of the game. You're saying that leaving the game early in full knowledge that it will help your teammate is cheating.
You're crazy!
No-one in the game gets something for nothing, no-one is making something that isn't supposed to happen, happen. Everything that is happening in the game is scoutable, forseeable, and understandable. Though I haven't ever played against this, I'd imagine it's stoppable, as well.
You argue that it is something that one team can do and the other cannot. I disagree! Every time I press f10 - n, I also leave the game! In fact, my reaction time is such that I could probably do it within moments of one of my opponents doing so! This would allow my ally to do the same cheese (assuming terran)!
You argue that it's bypass of no resource sharing before five minutes, but there is no sharing. The resources and workers become the other players', and he has to make workers out of both bases or be economically behind. Though the extra 50 minerals and extra 6 workers allow for an extremely fast supply depot and consequently barracks with a "superior economy" this is only because both economies are funneled into one player and not because that one player is getting free money.
If there's a replay of this available, I'd like to watch it. I'd imagine the net value of the two players' team would be more than the ultracheeser due to constant worker production. A potential proper response to this would be to 6 pool or 8-10 worker rush on the part of one of the two players in an effort to stall potential cheese long enough for the other player to get up standard defenses. Because the other team sacrificed their teammate to improve the strength of the other player, you'll likely have to do the same in order to not die.
Yeah, not cheating. It's a one-base all-in on the income of two starting bases... and if it isn't, it's one dude trying to macro/micro as well as two.
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Thread made by me was a 3v3 and 4v4 version of this
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This isn't actually that strong. You get units out faster, yeah, but you're still only one player against two.
If you do manage to kill one player, the other player has enough of an econ to have an advantage over you 1v1.
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I kinda destroys the fun aspect of the game, since only one guy gets to play.
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On August 31 2011 10:52 dAPhREAk wrote:
seriously, what is the fun in doing something so stupid? why do people promote lame strategies?
It's kind of fun to break/bend the game. Remember when Trickster pylon-blocked Idra and cannoned his nat last year? It was just... GG. He broke the game. Every GSL map since then had to put neutral depots at the bottom of ramps as a result, and extended ramp size to 3 pylons.
When Protoss/Zerg 2v2 teams figured out that overlords could let you warp into someone's base from a low-ground pylon at the 6 minute mark? Kind of cool to bend the mechanics of the game to create an OP strategy.
Viking flower? Make it impossible to tell how large your air force is until it's firing at you.
Don't take it so seriously; it's always cool to make interesting discoveries like this; it chnages the metagame just a bit every time.
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On September 03 2011 12:27 Chance55 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 07:15 droit wrote:
To play starcraft well is to play it responsively. You see one player drop right at the beginning? Your thoughts should be 90% 2 1 base all-ins are coming. Possibly faster than normally possible. If the person plays standard he is basically asking to lose.
Send an early scout, get a decently early pool/rax/gate, and mentally prepare for a crisis.
If it's super-cheesy you might need to pull some workers, just like a lot of 1v1 all-ins.
As soon as a player drops you no longer need to worry about playing a normal game, so why on earth would you not adapt?
... You make it sound like anybody who loses to this probably opened up with a fast expo or something and then was shocked when they got hit by an early rush. "Oh just make an earlier gate, be ready to pull a few workers, and it's easy." This can be WAY more powerful than a "regular cheese," and easily overwhelm you even if you attempt to prepare. Plus unlike a normal 6 pool or something, it can be followed up with a decent economy and teching thats faster than normally possible. Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 07:42 Staboteur wrote:
I'm not sure where exactly you'd consider it cheating, this strategy uses a series of in-game features and mechanics to achieve a goal but does so in a manner that has obvious cons as well as obvious benefits.
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in-game features? what? "Leaving the game" is not an in game feature. This exploits a non in game feature to circumvent an in game mechanic. You arn't allowed to trade resources in the first five minutes. THAT is the in game mechanic. Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 08:57 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
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I presume you recently lost to this because you were too stupid to respond to the disconnect at 0:01, maybe even saying "lol easy win" in team chat? Seriously, why get so upset? It's not even good. It's worse than pretty much any normal cheese, plus you get the insane warning signal.
Imagine doing a planetary fortress rush, but not only are you doing a terrible cheese that only works against bads, a message flashes on your opponents screen saying "He's doing a planetary fortress rush!" No, i try and prepare just in case when somebody disconnects really fast. And no, it's not terrible, it's capable of being very overpowered. If you've played versions of it that seemed shitty, i would speculate that those were people who abused this feature to rank up far ahead of how good the players actually were, until even this couldn't carry them anymore. Either that or somebody just dropped right at the beginning, and their partner just tried to randomly try and instantly transition into this. But with equal skill players this can be very very powerful. Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 09:09 Dementophobia wrote:
... Using game mechanics in a way it was not expected by Blizzard is suddenly cheating? Was the guy cheating who invented mule drops to repair tanks and thors on the front line? Was the guy cheating who invented the extractor trick to get an extra drone? I wouldn't say so and this is the same thing. You take the options the game offers you and utilize it as best you can.
If Blizzard comes to the conclusion that this mechanic is imbalanced, they will address it with a patch. Like they do it with ramp vision in 1.4.0. Although no-one complained that people were cheating when they used the sight range to blink over force fielded ramps and other tricks.
... Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 07:42 Staboteur wrote:
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Really, calling this cheating is like calling a Zerg at 210/200 supply a hacker. Sure, it seems devious and like they're bending the rules a little, but ultimately what they did -did- cost them something and wasn't free. No resource trading before 5 minutes is clearly the blizzard intended game mechanic. If you want to try and abuse that with in game mechanics which are part of the game, that's fine. For example, you can do some very limited early game "resource sharing" by building your ally an extractor, saving them not only the minerals for the building, but a drone for zerg or scv mining time for terran. That's fine because that uses actual gameplay. Same thing with getting a 210 army as zerg. It may push the clearly intended 200 army limit, but it does so using normal game mechanics. Same thing with blinking up the ramp and all that stuff dementophobia talked about. but... But "exiting the game" is NOT AN IN GAME MECHANIC. That would be like if you got into a non production near draw situation, and your team had a floating building and a warprism with some DTs while the enemy army was guarding their remaining building. So you had your teammate quit and speed through the replay to see if they had an observer left. It sounds like some of you guys would simply call that "clever scouting in a way that blizzard didn't intend." Not to mention in all that other crap, the other side can do the exact same stuff. No matter how cheesy or lame your strat is, both sides can at least do the same thing (after accounting for different races). Their zerg can 6 pool,your zerg can 6 pool. Their protoss can high ground / low ground cannon your mineral line, your protoss can do the same thing to them. Their terrans can do that 3 rax with the OC supply calldown build... so can your terrans. They can share resources before 5 minutes... you can OH WAIT, YOU CAN'T DO THAT.That's why it's cheating. Not only are you using a non game mechanic to exploit the 5 minute rule, but you end up with a unique situation where even if you have the same race makeup, one team can do things that are physically impossible for the other team to do Besides, I know there isn't a lot of serious 2v2, but I virtually guarantee that if somebody tries this in the PTSL thing going on right now, it wouldn't be allowed. If MLG did 2v2, or NASL did 2v2, or whatever, there's no way they would allow a "strategy" that involves one player quitting to to an exploit and gain an advantage.
This is a lot of QQ. There are solutions, even if not obvious: I'm pretty sure a 7 pool roflstomps proxy barracks play, for example. If one player insta-quits, the remaining player is a major disadvantage and you should be aware that they will try to end the game sooner rather than later or else go for a funky timing impossible for 2 regular players to go for.
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quote:
"I understand, i meant for everyone, to stop the aggressive posture and actually give somewhat useful input or at least, don't flame the op which does nothing."
lol whats there to discuss?
This is not some legit strategy or cheese like cannon rush or 6 pool as some people make it out to be..
This is a strategy based on the abuse of something what obviously is a bug
there is a ban on mineral trading at start of the game, there is a tricky way wich involves not natural play (someone leaving at start game is not intended) wich allows you to bypass this limit
its just bug abuse its not a sweet smart ass strategy lol
geez whats wrong with you people
sure its funny btw, if see it once or twice and sure pool at 5 sec would be awesome to see for fun once, not as a standard and accepted strategy though and thats why oppose this in such strong words
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I see many people saying the strategy is weak because it's easy to see coming, but isn't this rather flexible?
I mean, assuming it were a shared base map, if the player had great macro mechanics, theoretically he can play it as if he were starting off with two bases, getting orbitals / gasses much faster than his opponents. Obviously his attention span couldn't be as good as two people, but if it's an early two base timing attack, the game should end before that advantage ever came into play.
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You lose a player doing this. It turns into a literal 2v1, you're crippling one aspect of your team for an advantage in another, a fair trade off in my opinion.
Crying about how unfair it is that he has earlier timings is like complaining the legless dude you're robbing has a crowbar.
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On September 03 2011 21:14 RockIronrod wrote:
You lose a player doing this. It turns into a literal 2v1, you're crippling one aspect of your team for an advantage in another, a fair trade off in my opinion.
Crying about how unfair it is that he has earlier timings is like complaining the legless dude you're robbing has a crowbar.
No, its more like complaining that the legless dude robbing you has a gun
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it definitely is imba. there's a reason why everyone had their own resources if your teammate left in wc3.
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On September 03 2011 12:27 Chance55 wrote:
You make it sound like anybody who loses to this probably opened up with a fast expo or something and then was shocked when they got hit by an early rush. "Oh just make an earlier gate, be ready to pull a few workers, and it's easy." This can be WAY more powerful than a "regular cheese," and easily overwhelm you even if you attempt to prepare. Plus unlike a normal 6 pool or something, it can be followed up with a decent economy and teching thats faster than normally possible.
decent economy and teching faster than normally possible ? how ?
so one player quits in the first 5 seconds of the game, you have 6 workers.... now even if you build workers for the person that left, you're not even getting a supply count so you won't know that you need to build depots/pylons/OLs until you're supply blocked, and even then you're likely better off by expanding than building your ally's supply up so that you get the resources. if you actually do build up his supply far enough to have 1 fully saturated base, you get a bit of gas at a slightly lower cost, and you get a bit of minerals at a slightly lower cost than had you expanded. but it really isn't that significant. unless you do huge damage to one of your opponents with this strategy you're pretty screwed because you're still playing 1v2.
so if you have the spare apm to build economy and tech up DURING the early rush, you may get a slight tech advantage that helps nothing at all when your 200 army hits their 400 army. 200 stalkers kill pretty much anything you can come up with with 200 food.
in short teching is pretty pointless since there's very little chance of winning a late game. if you don't win with the rush you won't win later either.
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Limiting resource trading for the first 5 minutes is in the game for a reason, think they should delay fund transfer until the 5 minute mark even if someone leaves the game immediately
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This is definitely OP. One of the best teams in the world knew it was coming (i tried the build a bit differently the previous game my ally left... [random team]) and they couldn't stop it.
http://drop.sc/35887
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dont knock OP. its an abuse and def not cool but something that has been discovered !
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EPT
