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WTFZerg
United States704 Posts
On September 01 2011 07:59 CowMoo wrote: And please don't take the 2v2 ladder seriously. I was rank 1 diamond for a while doing nothing but triple proxy rax lifting into their main. This, seriously. I don't know how anyone takes the 2v2 ladder even remotely serious. Or any of the team game modes really. | ||
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Hidden_MotiveS
Canada2562 Posts
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johngalt90
United States357 Posts
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
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RodYan
United States126 Posts
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On September 01 2011 08:11 WTFZerg wrote: This, seriously. I don't know how anyone takes the 2v2 ladder even remotely serious. Or any of the team game modes really. Being diamond is crap. You make it sound slike you cheesed and were good. There are people who cheesed 1v1 to masters. Your point is invalid | ||
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tuho12345
4482 Posts
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BadgerBadger8264
Netherlands409 Posts
Once again, this is actual "cheating." I know there arn't many serious 2v2 tournaments, but if 2v2 was serious, i guarantee this wouldn't be permitted. If somebody were to try this at that PTSL thing, i all but guarantee it wouldn't be allowed. It's cheating because it lets you do things that are PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE in normal play. Blizzard put the 5 minute resource trading ban in for a reason, and this uses an exploit to bypass that. You can start producing crap and get units / cannons / whatever out faster than normally physically possible, and you can simultaneously tech faster than physically possible. You can start with the faster than normally possible 6 pool from hell, and still follow up with a faster than normally possible muta rush. This gives you a HUGE advantage over any team that doesn't have a player quit, and is therefore bound by blizzards intentional 5 minute ban on resource trading. I accept that so called cheese is part of the game. I use them myself a decent amount. But there's a huge difference between that and exploit the game to do things that's it's physically impossible for the other team to do. I presume you recently lost to this because you were too stupid to respond to the disconnect at 0:01, maybe even saying "lol easy win" in team chat? Seriously, why get so upset? It's not even good. It's worse than pretty much any normal cheese, plus you get the insane warning signal. Imagine doing a planetary fortress rush, but not only are you doing a terrible cheese that only works against bads, a message flashes on your opponents screen saying "He's doing a planetary fortress rush!" | ||
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On September 01 2011 08:57 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: I presume you recently lost to this because you were too stupid to respond to the disconnect at 0:01, maybe even saying "lol easy win" in team chat? Seriously, why get so upset? It's not even good. It's worse than pretty much any normal cheese, plus you get the insane warning signal. Imagine doing a planetary fortress rush, but not only are you doing a terrible cheese that only works against bads, a message flashes on your opponents scream saying "He's doing a planetary fortress rush!" lol this is so true | ||
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Dementophobia
Austria64 Posts
On September 01 2011 07:15 droit wrote: To play starcraft well is to play it responsively. You see one player drop right at the beginning? Your thoughts should be 90% 2 1 base all-ins are coming. Possibly faster than normally possible. If the person plays standard he is basically asking to lose. Send an early scout, get a decently early pool/rax/gate, and mentally prepare for a crisis. If it's super-cheesy you might need to pull some workers, just like a lot of 1v1 all-ins. As soon as a player drops you no longer need to worry about playing a normal game, so why on earth would you not adapt? If you complain about cheese that is scoutable and adaptable, then sorry to be blunt, you have room for improvement. I was about to write a similar comment, I see it exactly the same way. Using game mechanics in a way it was not expected by Blizzard is suddenly cheating? Was the guy cheating who invented mule drops to repair tanks and thors on the front line? Was the guy cheating who invented the extractor trick to get an extra drone? I wouldn't say so and this is the same thing. You take the options the game offers you and utilize it as best you can. If Blizzard comes to the conclusion that this mechanic is imbalanced, they will address it with a patch. Like they do it with ramp vision in 1.4.0. Although no-one complained that people were cheating when they used the sight range to blink over force fielded ramps and other tricks. I like the idea of the OP although I never tried it myself. I guess people flaming in this thread are just afraid they might encounter this on the ladder and have no way to deal with this "new" strategy. Instead of flaming I suggest trying to find ways to beat it - that's how you get the ladder points. There is one open question for me. Someone said that both players get a win if they succeed. I thought Blizzard patched those farming issues because so many people played 4v4s and simply left right away to get free wins. Don't you have to fulfill certain conditions to get a win towards an achievement? | ||
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Chance55
United States55 Posts
On September 01 2011 07:15 droit wrote: To play starcraft well is to play it responsively. You see one player drop right at the beginning? Your thoughts should be 90% 2 1 base all-ins are coming. Possibly faster than normally possible. If the person plays standard he is basically asking to lose. Send an early scout, get a decently early pool/rax/gate, and mentally prepare for a crisis. If it's super-cheesy you might need to pull some workers, just like a lot of 1v1 all-ins. As soon as a player drops you no longer need to worry about playing a normal game, so why on earth would you not adapt? ... You make it sound like anybody who loses to this probably opened up with a fast expo or something and then was shocked when they got hit by an early rush. "Oh just make an earlier gate, be ready to pull a few workers, and it's easy." This can be WAY more powerful than a "regular cheese," and easily overwhelm you even if you attempt to prepare. Plus unlike a normal 6 pool or something, it can be followed up with a decent economy and teching thats faster than normally possible. On September 01 2011 07:42 Staboteur wrote: I'm not sure where exactly you'd consider it cheating, this strategy uses a series of in-game features and mechanics to achieve a goal but does so in a manner that has obvious cons as well as obvious benefits. ... in-game features? what? "Leaving the game" is not an in game feature. This exploits a non in game feature to circumvent an in game mechanic. You arn't allowed to trade resources in the first five minutes. THAT is the in game mechanic. On September 01 2011 08:57 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: ... I presume you recently lost to this because you were too stupid to respond to the disconnect at 0:01, maybe even saying "lol easy win" in team chat? Seriously, why get so upset? It's not even good. It's worse than pretty much any normal cheese, plus you get the insane warning signal. Imagine doing a planetary fortress rush, but not only are you doing a terrible cheese that only works against bads, a message flashes on your opponents screen saying "He's doing a planetary fortress rush!" No, i try and prepare just in case when somebody disconnects really fast. And no, it's not terrible, it's capable of being very overpowered. If you've played versions of it that seemed shitty, i would speculate that those were people who abused this feature to rank up far ahead of how good the players actually were, until even this couldn't carry them anymore. Either that or somebody just dropped right at the beginning, and their partner just tried to randomly try and instantly transition into this. But with equal skill players this can be very very powerful. On September 01 2011 09:09 Dementophobia wrote: ... Using game mechanics in a way it was not expected by Blizzard is suddenly cheating? Was the guy cheating who invented mule drops to repair tanks and thors on the front line? Was the guy cheating who invented the extractor trick to get an extra drone? I wouldn't say so and this is the same thing. You take the options the game offers you and utilize it as best you can. If Blizzard comes to the conclusion that this mechanic is imbalanced, they will address it with a patch. Like they do it with ramp vision in 1.4.0. Although no-one complained that people were cheating when they used the sight range to blink over force fielded ramps and other tricks. ... On September 01 2011 07:42 Staboteur wrote: ... Really, calling this cheating is like calling a Zerg at 210/200 supply a hacker. Sure, it seems devious and like they're bending the rules a little, but ultimately what they did -did- cost them something and wasn't free. No resource trading before 5 minutes is clearly the blizzard intended game mechanic. If you want to try and abuse that with in game mechanics which are part of the game, that's fine. For example, you can do some very limited early game "resource sharing" by building your ally an extractor, saving them not only the minerals for the building, but a drone for zerg or scv mining time for terran. That's fine because that uses actual gameplay. Same thing with getting a 210 army as zerg. It may push the clearly intended 200 army limit, but it does so using normal game mechanics. Same thing with blinking up the ramp and all that stuff dementophobia talked about. but... But "exiting the game" is NOT AN IN GAME MECHANIC. That would be like if you got into a non production near draw situation, and your team had a floating building and a warprism with some DTs while the enemy army was guarding their remaining building. So you had your teammate quit and speed through the replay to see if they had an observer left. It sounds like some of you guys would simply call that "clever scouting in a way that blizzard didn't intend." Not to mention in all that other crap, the other side can do the exact same stuff. No matter how cheesy or lame your strat is, both sides can at least do the same thing (after accounting for different races). Their zerg can 6 pool,your zerg can 6 pool. Their protoss can high ground / low ground cannon your mineral line, your protoss can do the same thing to them. Their terrans can do that 3 rax with the OC supply calldown build... so can your terrans. They can share resources before 5 minutes... you can OH WAIT, YOU CAN'T DO THAT. That's why it's cheating. Not only are you using a non game mechanic to exploit the 5 minute rule, but you end up with a unique situation where even if you have the same race makeup, one team can do things that are physically impossible for the other team to do Besides, I know there isn't a lot of serious 2v2, but I virtually guarantee that if somebody tries this in the PTSL thing going on right now, it wouldn't be allowed. If MLG did 2v2, or NASL did 2v2, or whatever, there's no way they would allow a "strategy" that involves one player quitting to to an exploit and gain an advantage. | ||
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skunkz
France32 Posts
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
On September 03 2011 12:27 Chance55 wrote: in-game features? what? "Leaving the game" is not an in game feature. This exploits a non in game feature to circumvent an in game mechanic. You arn't allowed to trade resources in the first five minutes. THAT is the in game mechanic. Nope! Because arguing on the internet is cool, I'll respond. A -feature- of team games is that when your ally leaves, his remaining and future resources are distributed between any remaining players. This is a feature of the game. A feature. It happens every game. Naturally. Intended. What you're saying is that your teammate is not allowed to leave the game knowing of this feature in an effort to provide you with an advantage in the early game at the cost of his participation in the rest of the game. You're saying that leaving the game early in full knowledge that it will help your teammate is cheating. You're crazy! No-one in the game gets something for nothing, no-one is making something that isn't supposed to happen, happen. Everything that is happening in the game is scoutable, forseeable, and understandable. Though I haven't ever played against this, I'd imagine it's stoppable, as well. You argue that it is something that one team can do and the other cannot. I disagree! Every time I press f10 - n, I also leave the game! In fact, my reaction time is such that I could probably do it within moments of one of my opponents doing so! This would allow my ally to do the same cheese (assuming terran)! You argue that it's bypass of no resource sharing before five minutes, but there is no sharing. The resources and workers become the other players', and he has to make workers out of both bases or be economically behind. Though the extra 50 minerals and extra 6 workers allow for an extremely fast supply depot and consequently barracks with a "superior economy" this is only because both economies are funneled into one player and not because that one player is getting free money. If there's a replay of this available, I'd like to watch it. I'd imagine the net value of the two players' team would be more than the ultracheeser due to constant worker production. A potential proper response to this would be to 6 pool or 8-10 worker rush on the part of one of the two players in an effort to stall potential cheese long enough for the other player to get up standard defenses. Because the other team sacrificed their teammate to improve the strength of the other player, you'll likely have to do the same in order to not die. Yeah, not cheating. It's a one-base all-in on the income of two starting bases... and if it isn't, it's one dude trying to macro/micro as well as two. | ||
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NydusHerMain
Canada492 Posts
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
If you do manage to kill one player, the other player has enough of an econ to have an advantage over you 1v1. | ||
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Tedde93
Sweden169 Posts
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Snaphoo
United States614 Posts
On August 31 2011 10:52 dAPhREAk wrote: seriously, what is the fun in doing something so stupid? why do people promote lame strategies? It's kind of fun to break/bend the game. Remember when Trickster pylon-blocked Idra and cannoned his nat last year? It was just... GG. He broke the game. Every GSL map since then had to put neutral depots at the bottom of ramps as a result, and extended ramp size to 3 pylons. When Protoss/Zerg 2v2 teams figured out that overlords could let you warp into someone's base from a low-ground pylon at the 6 minute mark? Kind of cool to bend the mechanics of the game to create an OP strategy. Viking flower? Make it impossible to tell how large your air force is until it's firing at you. Don't take it so seriously; it's always cool to make interesting discoveries like this; it chnages the metagame just a bit every time. | ||
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Snaphoo
United States614 Posts
On September 03 2011 12:27 Chance55 wrote: You make it sound like anybody who loses to this probably opened up with a fast expo or something and then was shocked when they got hit by an early rush. "Oh just make an earlier gate, be ready to pull a few workers, and it's easy." This can be WAY more powerful than a "regular cheese," and easily overwhelm you even if you attempt to prepare. Plus unlike a normal 6 pool or something, it can be followed up with a decent economy and teching thats faster than normally possible. in-game features? what? "Leaving the game" is not an in game feature. This exploits a non in game feature to circumvent an in game mechanic. You arn't allowed to trade resources in the first five minutes. THAT is the in game mechanic. No, i try and prepare just in case when somebody disconnects really fast. And no, it's not terrible, it's capable of being very overpowered. If you've played versions of it that seemed shitty, i would speculate that those were people who abused this feature to rank up far ahead of how good the players actually were, until even this couldn't carry them anymore. Either that or somebody just dropped right at the beginning, and their partner just tried to randomly try and instantly transition into this. But with equal skill players this can be very very powerful. No resource trading before 5 minutes is clearly the blizzard intended game mechanic. If you want to try and abuse that with in game mechanics which are part of the game, that's fine. For example, you can do some very limited early game "resource sharing" by building your ally an extractor, saving them not only the minerals for the building, but a drone for zerg or scv mining time for terran. That's fine because that uses actual gameplay. Same thing with getting a 210 army as zerg. It may push the clearly intended 200 army limit, but it does so using normal game mechanics. Same thing with blinking up the ramp and all that stuff dementophobia talked about. but... But "exiting the game" is NOT AN IN GAME MECHANIC. That would be like if you got into a non production near draw situation, and your team had a floating building and a warprism with some DTs while the enemy army was guarding their remaining building. So you had your teammate quit and speed through the replay to see if they had an observer left. It sounds like some of you guys would simply call that "clever scouting in a way that blizzard didn't intend." Not to mention in all that other crap, the other side can do the exact same stuff. No matter how cheesy or lame your strat is, both sides can at least do the same thing (after accounting for different races). Their zerg can 6 pool,your zerg can 6 pool. Their protoss can high ground / low ground cannon your mineral line, your protoss can do the same thing to them. Their terrans can do that 3 rax with the OC supply calldown build... so can your terrans. They can share resources before 5 minutes... you can OH WAIT, YOU CAN'T DO THAT. That's why it's cheating. Not only are you using a non game mechanic to exploit the 5 minute rule, but you end up with a unique situation where even if you have the same race makeup, one team can do things that are physically impossible for the other team to do Besides, I know there isn't a lot of serious 2v2, but I virtually guarantee that if somebody tries this in the PTSL thing going on right now, it wouldn't be allowed. If MLG did 2v2, or NASL did 2v2, or whatever, there's no way they would allow a "strategy" that involves one player quitting to to an exploit and gain an advantage. This is a lot of QQ. There are solutions, even if not obvious: I'm pretty sure a 7 pool roflstomps proxy barracks play, for example. If one player insta-quits, the remaining player is a major disadvantage and you should be aware that they will try to end the game sooner rather than later or else go for a funky timing impossible for 2 regular players to go for. | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
"I understand, i meant for everyone, to stop the aggressive posture and actually give somewhat useful input or at least, don't flame the op which does nothing." lol whats there to discuss? This is not some legit strategy or cheese like cannon rush or 6 pool as some people make it out to be.. This is a strategy based on the abuse of something what obviously is a bug there is a ban on mineral trading at start of the game, there is a tricky way wich involves not natural play (someone leaving at start game is not intended) wich allows you to bypass this limit its just bug abuse its not a sweet smart ass strategy lol geez whats wrong with you people sure its funny btw, if see it once or twice and sure pool at 5 sec would be awesome to see for fun once, not as a standard and accepted strategy though and thats why oppose this in such strong words | ||
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cordlc
United States360 Posts
I mean, assuming it were a shared base map, if the player had great macro mechanics, theoretically he can play it as if he were starting off with two bases, getting orbitals / gasses much faster than his opponents. Obviously his attention span couldn't be as good as two people, but if it's an early two base timing attack, the game should end before that advantage ever came into play. | ||
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