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On December 03 2011 03:47 Qikz wrote:
Do I go reactor on rax before factory when I reactor hellion opener in TvZ? I've gone from using just a reaper expand to this too but I don't have the build order down really.
Here's the order you want to do things:
- depot, barracks, gas, 2nd depot
- make 2 marines
- factory when you can afford it, then reactor when you can afford it
- command center and 3rd depot BEFORE HELLIONS
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On December 03 2011 04:32 corvaleur wrote:50 APM Protoss one base immortal all-in, what to do against a-click? http://drop.sc/67410I seriously consider to quit SC2 since every diamond/master PVT is just 1 base all-ins from Protoss.
Watching now. Quick snipe... why comment on the APM it took for him to execute that all in? Not like 67 apm is that much better.... /rant/
Depot SCV makes barracks. Scouting a protoss that early does absolutely nothing. You will not see anything you will instantly lose to, sans a proxy 2 gate, with a 10 scout, over the 14 scv scout, or even later (I do like after the 2nd depot I think)
This is my preference, as it works out SEAMLESSLY. Make that 16th scv, and delay OC, make 2nd depot, and marine, then OC once the 16th scv is done. No waiting. No idle anything.
You don't go into his base upon scouting... You don't know gas timings, building placement or count, pylon count, worker count, nexus energy...
To me, your opening build has no constant theme. 1 rax tech lab stim rush yet you CC? Why not just go a 1 rax reaper FE, you get stim just a BIT later than you do there, but you can scout and harass and call out FEs and 3 gate robo/vr/dt rushes much easier. You're not really.... safe? so to speak with early stim. I'd either say a reaper FE with fast stim, or a 1 rax marauder conc shell first then FE. That's if you don't ever go gasless. (I don't ever.)
When you go to build rax 2 and 3, just wait until you're at 220-240 minerals, then pull 2 scvs off and make them at the same time.
You aren't very constant on scv production early. You miss a beat, then make two.
You get 2nd gas... why? You aren't double reactoring. No ebay. No fac/starport. No ghosts. No gas constraints in your build so far at 7 minutes. You also haven't scanned or scouted him. You don't have a CLUE what he's doing. Blindly making 3 bunkers.
7:52 you scanned in a good spot. You know he's 1 basing. No expo. Nothing on ramp. 2 gates, core, gas present. Two sentries, 1 stalker, 1 zeal. Not defending his ramp. No army present. That's a HUGE sign. HUGE.
Your raxes go through many idle periods, albeit sometimes small, sometimes not. Can't have that trying to hold of a 1 base all in.
500 gas, 50 minerals. No need for that gas surplus. Get 2nd gas later, as you get factory as you seem to do a 1 rax fe into 3 rax.
8:45 prosense scv placement scout., You know it's coming. You saw it. You pull scvs to repair. Good. Placing all in the back means easy force field, FF, and win. You want some in the front, and the back. That way you can always repair, hopefully.
Watch your wall, he spotted with OB. Badly, too. OB was there many seconds before he attacked. Watch it, scan it (as you have 2 1/2 saved up scans/mules) and kill it. Force him up the ramp into 4 bunkers. Not picking off sides.
He's able to just a move back off a move back off a move back off. It's why I always feel bunkers should be a few hexes back, so he's forced up a choke with less room around it to sit in and try and focus down bunkers than can hit as he comes up the ramp.
Your 11 scvs aren't repairing, like it would help at all though. I also feel that's very holdable with the army you had... Your micro choice was a bit off and weird/bad. Why stim step into his army... back off side by side concave to concave (should be a song)
800 gas at the end, nothing to spend it on. A testament to later gas. Cut out that 2nd gas that early, get a 4th rax, or get two reactors, and then a 4th rax upon seeing the all in at 7:45 or so.
I am running/working on a reaper FE build that would place a sizeable army against that push, at 10 minutes, with tanks marauders marines stim shields shells and 2 medics out, or on the way. I usually push around 100 supply at 10-10:30. I could share it with you, if you'd like to just feel a change. I've faced two immortal all ins with that build, and both were much less difficult than anticipated because tanks just ranged out the sentries. Get rid of GS, and your ball of shit will just wreccccccck.
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How important is air superiority now in TvT? I'm seeing a lot of bio terrans make no vikings, just medivacs and bio and dropping like mad, flanking, hitting tanks unsieged, and expand like mad. Then I also see marine tank medivac, which is also the style I'm trying to learn. I get that it's really important for mech players who need air dominance for the sight advantage, also because medivacs could only be used for drops in that playstyle. Is it better if going marine heavy with tank support to have vikings against another marine tank medivac player?
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United Kingdom12025 Posts
Is it better if going marine heavy with tank support to have vikings against another marine tank medivac player?
I play mech now, but when I was playing MTV I always had a good couple of vikings just to snipe out his medivacs giving me the edge. So it's always useful to have a couple. ^^
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On December 03 2011 06:53 Kid-Fox wrote:Then I also see marine tank medivac, which is also the style I'm trying to learn. I get that it's really important for mech players who need air dominance for the sight advantage, also because medivacs could only be used for drops in that playstyle. Is it better if going marine heavy with tank support to have vikings against another marine tank medivac player?
In my opinion, not really—they're too costly and not that useful. Making Vikings means your opponent will have more Marines and more Tanks, and he can still have sight with scans.
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On December 02 2011 11:09 Andreas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 07:59 BirdKiller wrote:
Going against a Zerg that:
- Does not Fast Expand to Natural
- Builds Spawning Pool and Extractor
To mean means that there's either going to be a Baneling Bust or a fast Roach coming in. The question is, what do I need to look out for to determine which strategy the Zerg player will pick?
Once in a blue moon I might get a SCV go directly into the Zerg's base at later time and find its tech structures, but if that fails, the only hint that I see are the number of Zerglings the Zerg has. If there's a lot of Zerglings, I should prepare a Baneling Bust, if not, then I should be cautious of a fast Roach.
Is there anything else that I should be looking? My philosophy is, either the Zerg is all-inning or his expansion is going to be delayed. Going gas/pool for fast ling speed and then expanding once the first 4 zerglings pop isn't that popular in the high leagues anymore, but you'll still see it every now and then. Assuming you're going for some kind of fast expand build (reactor hellion expand, maybe?), the fact that he delayed his expo to get a pool/gas means you can afford to scan him without putting yourself needlessly behind. When you scout him with your first SCV, see how much gas he's got left in his geyser. If he has less than 2400 and still has 3 guys on gas, you know something's up. If he's taken guys off gas but isn't researching zergling speed, he's waiting for the SCV to die before spending his gas on whatever he wants to do. Count to 10 before scanning his base and see what he's doing. Also - whether he's baneling or roach busting, my response tends to be rushing for tanks and/or banshees, so keep in mind you might not actually need to know which he's doing.
I appreciate for the in depth response to this question. I forgot to mention to omit the possibility of Zergling speed, but still learned something off of it.
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I downloaded a series between SlayerSRyung and LiquidSheth from sc2rep.com (ryung 3-0s sheth pretty convincingly). In each game, he makes a really quick 3rd orbital command and harrasses with 2factory blue flame hellions, transitioning into heavy marine tank medivac, and then eventually ravens with seeker missiles. His openings differ but that's the overall game plan.
I tried to imitate this style to train my lategame tvz, but I just don't seem to understand. I very rarely win lategame terran vs zerg because oftentimes I'm unable to apply constant pressure due to mass speedlings or mutalisks or roaches or whatever the like. What is the secret to lategame terran vs zerg? I get lategame tvt, where you transition into mass air, and lategame tvp where you carefully balance your marauder/marine count as well as your viking and ghost count/ratio. When I do tvz though, the zerg just swarms me really hard with lots of speedlings and mutalisks/infestors. Is it of utmost importance to abide by qxc's rule of thumb: "if you're not attacking, you're probably losing"? I've heard that a terran can turtle up and have an unstoppable lategame army. I've actually seen it in a match between gretorp and butteryllama (don't have the replay on hand, sorry)
oh, almost forgot. http://drop.sc/67682 this is my imitation of ryung's play. Should I have been more aggressive earlier? When do I move out?
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On December 03 2011 18:44 Kid-Fox wrote:Is it of utmost importance to abide by qxc's rule of thumb: "if you're not attacking, you're probably losing"?
No, the semi-passive way you played was fine, but with this style you need a stronger macro, i. e. build a fourth earlier (around the 15' or 16' mark, I'd say), get upgrades earlier (you had 0-1 by the 17' mark; at this point, you should be starting 3 attack), get add-ons on Barracks (you could only produce 7 Marines/wave by lategame, this is not enough to remax quickly), tech earlier to Ghosts, etc.
I didn't see the point with Blue Flame Hellions, they were so late that they were—in my opinion—a waste of money.
I'd suggest getting a Sensor Tower on your third in Metalopolis, especially if you morphed your CC into an Orbital, so that Zerg can't just launch a surprise attack on it.
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Hey guys, top diamond here !
Recently i got trouble to deal with all in immortals in TVP. Even if i scout it, i get crushed.
I usually go for 1 rax expand into 4 rax (mass rines), so i dont think its too greedy but it seems its not enough to hold against this all-in. Of course, i drop bunkers and i pick scv auto-repair but he just FF and immortals just destroy my bunkers...What can i do against that? I feel completly lost.
replay :
http://drop.sc/67757
I know i made some mistakes (i dont know why i took my second gas), and i let him scout my fast expand but that's not the point.
My bunkers are in a choke but if i spread too much my bunkers, he just take them one by one.
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On December 03 2011 07:16 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 06:53 Kid-Fox wrote:Then I also see marine tank medivac, which is also the style I'm trying to learn. I get that it's really important for mech players who need air dominance for the sight advantage, also because medivacs could only be used for drops in that playstyle. Is it better if going marine heavy with tank support to have vikings against another marine tank medivac player? In my opinion, not really—they're too costly and not that useful. Making Vikings means your opponent will have more Marines and more Tanks, and he can still have sight with scans.
I would say it depends if you either plan or the match lasts long enough for the game to go on the last stage of TvT: the air stage. So having air dominance will definitely help you have an advantage against your opponent's army as you will have the required air army ready much sooner than your opponent will have. Just remember that you still need vikings even though you have battlecruisers and don't forget to add ravens too for HSM and PDD. Upgrades are also very essential, it might be good to get some of the +1 upgrades before you start transitioning.
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On December 04 2011 06:00 Yohsc2 wrote:Hey guys, top diamond here ! Recently i got trouble to deal with all in immortals in TVP. Even if i scout it, i get crushed. I usually go for 1 rax expand into 4 rax (mass rines), so i dont think its too greedy but it seems its not enough to hold against this all-in. Of course, i drop bunkers and i pick scv auto-repair but he just FF and immortals just destroy my bunkers...What can i do against that? I feel completly lost. replay : http://drop.sc/67757I know i made some mistakes (i dont know why i took my second gas), and i let him scout my fast expand but that's not the point. My bunkers are in a choke but if i spread too much my bunkers, he just take them one by one.
Hi,
Some comments about the game :
There was no reason to move your Barracks at the wall. You need constant Marine production at this stage, and lifting this Barracks unnecessarily cuts your production for some seconds.
You got your extra Barracks a bit too early, you should not cut SCV/Marine production to build them.
You let your scouting SCV die, which is something you definitely don't want when going gasless 1 rax FE, because you need to check his natural a bit later with that SCV to know if he's one-basing or not.
You went fast wall yet built your CC right at the natural—this makes little sense to me. Though pros often build right on the natural, I'd advise against this. You said: "i let him scout my fast expand but that's not the point" — well, this is not the entire point, but if you go fast wall, he does not see anything (not even if you went gas or not), so there is no reason to let him know you go gasless 1 rax FE by building on the natural after he failed to gather any valuable information about your opening (except that you were likely not going 2 rax). If you build your CC in your base, he has to play in the dark for a while, which means he may have to choose suboptimal build orders, etc. Watch PuMa vs HerO game 1 @ DreamHack Winter to see the kind of mindgames you can do with fast wall and gasless 1 rax FE in base.
You built your bunker too far from your natural; you could get a better concave if you built a bit behind.
In this situation, get Combat Shields instead of Stim; Stim takes too long to research, and he can simply retreat making you waste precious health on your Marines, whereas Combat Shields means all his units need one additional attack to kill your Marines.
Don't box your SCVs at your mineral line, use Ctrl + select one SCV; otherwise, you will needlessly pull MULEs, and you need those for your income.
Build Marauders on your Lab Barracks. 2 SCVs on gas will do.
Try to build one or two Bunkers each time he retreats.
In the end, you lost because you took an unnecessary risk and got nothing out of it; your SCV transfer and the fact you had to cut SCV production early, then pull SCVs later, means this fast expand ironically weakened your economy instead of strengthening it. Information is a resource in this game; we Terrans have the ability to hide information for some time, so use it.
On December 04 2011 06:39 Mehukannu wrote:
I would say it depends if you either plan or the match lasts long enough for the game to go on the last stage of TvT: the air stage. So having air dominance will definitely help you have an advantage against your opponent's army as you will have the required air army ready much sooner than your opponent will have. Just remember that you still need vikings even though you have battlecruisers and don't forget to add ravens too for HSM and PDD. Upgrades are also very essential, it might be good to get some of the +1 upgrades before you start transitioning.
From what I've seen and played, Marines/Tanks wars rarely get into that sort of lategame. (;
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Thanks for your response !
But the problem of building cc at my main is he can just sit at my natural and FF the ramp forever. So the advantage of building
directly cc at my natural is i have fast bunker so he cant contain me. what do you think?
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On December 04 2011 08:12 Yohsc2 wrote:
But the problem of building cc at my main is he can just sit at my natural and FF the ramp forever.
It takes at least 6 sentries to close ad infinitum a ramp; nothing should prevent you from going down before he reaches this number. And do remember that he does not know exactly what you're up to; before his Observer reaches your base, you could be going banshees for all he knows, so he'll likely be at home.
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http://drop.sc/67788
20 minute TvP game on Tal'Darim Altar, he goes 4gate i go 1rax expand and hold it off. Then he expands and eventually i lose to his army. Can anyone look at this replay and point out some things that i'm doing wrong?
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On December 04 2011 08:20 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 08:12 Yohsc2 wrote:
But the problem of building cc at my main is he can just sit at my natural and FF the ramp forever. It takes at least 6 sentries to close ad infinitum a ramp; nothing should prevent you from going down before he reaches this number. And do remember that he does not know exactly what you're up to; before his Observer reaches your base, you could be going banshees for all he knows, so he'll likely be at home.
Yes, a constant FF. But he can just keep ~3-4 and just semi constantly do it. 3-4 can uphold it for a while, and/or still cut you in half if you come down the ramp.
It's enough that the 1 sentry he leaves there, as most do, can cast the last FF and give his army a solid 15 seconds to retreat to the expo he put up.
Expo should be floated before any amount of sentries can be there to do such a thing with a gasless, even with a reactor rax FE, or 1 tech lab FE
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On December 04 2011 08:31 huehuehuehue wrote:http://drop.sc/6778820 minute TvP game on Tal'Darim Altar, he goes 4gate i go 1rax expand and hold it off. Then he expands and eventually i lose to his army. Can anyone look at this replay and point out some things that i'm doing wrong?
I would have to say (Although I'm only in diamond) is that the main problem you had was that you were too passive. Although his 4-gate failed, all he lost was a stalker, and as a follow-up to it he double expanded and teched and did everything except make gateway units. Although you had a nice bio-ball, that number of colossi tear bio apart. He was also consistantly one base ahead of you after double expanding. I would highly suggest that you not over-commit on defences (You built another bunker after he retreated from his 4-gate) and do a timing push after your opponent retreats (A good one would have been when your stim finished or your +1 finished). I would also suggest you try to gain more map control, since he had control of the Towers for almost the entire game.
P.S. It was 27 min. Also, forgive the wall of text.
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On December 04 2011 09:17 Peanut Butter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 08:31 huehuehuehue wrote:http://drop.sc/6778820 minute TvP game on Tal'Darim Altar, he goes 4gate i go 1rax expand and hold it off. Then he expands and eventually i lose to his army. Can anyone look at this replay and point out some things that i'm doing wrong? I would have to say (Although I'm only in diamond) is that the main problem you had was that you were too passive. Although his 4-gate failed, all he lost was a stalker, and as a follow-up to it he double expanded and teched and did everything except make gateway units. Although you had a nice bio-ball, that number of colossi tear bio apart. He was also consistantly one base ahead of you after double expanding. I would highly suggest that you not over-commit on defences (You built another bunker after he retreated from his 4-gate) and do a timing push after your opponent retreats (A good one would have been when your stim finished or your +1 finished). I would also suggest you try to gain more map control, since he had control of the Towers for almost the entire game. P.S. It was 27 min. Also, forgive the wall of text.
Thank you for the analysis. It says that it's 20mins on drop.sc for some reason.
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On December 04 2011 09:22 huehuehuehue wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 09:17 Peanut Butter wrote:On December 04 2011 08:31 huehuehuehue wrote:http://drop.sc/6778820 minute TvP game on Tal'Darim Altar, he goes 4gate i go 1rax expand and hold it off. Then he expands and eventually i lose to his army. Can anyone look at this replay and point out some things that i'm doing wrong? I would have to say (Although I'm only in diamond) is that the main problem you had was that you were too passive. Although his 4-gate failed, all he lost was a stalker, and as a follow-up to it he double expanded and teched and did everything except make gateway units. Although you had a nice bio-ball, that number of colossi tear bio apart. He was also consistantly one base ahead of you after double expanding. I would highly suggest that you not over-commit on defences (You built another bunker after he retreated from his 4-gate) and do a timing push after your opponent retreats (A good one would have been when your stim finished or your +1 finished). I would also suggest you try to gain more map control, since he had control of the Towers for almost the entire game. P.S. It was 27 min. Also, forgive the wall of text. Thank you for the analysis. It says that it's 20mins on drop.sc for some reason.
I believe its because Drop.sc calculates replay length in real time, since the in-game timer runs fast. Basically we are talking about the same length game.
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I need help. I am having difficulty battling the Ling Bling Muta. I read somewhere that Siegetank, Thor, Marine is good against such a build however it usually ends with, thors getting magic boxed. Marines getting Bling'd leaving my sieges vulnerable to Mutas. Also after a certain number of zergling's my sieges just get overwhelmed. When this occurs do I have my Marines attack the mutas? The lings? The blings? Also If i do hold off the attack, My population usually takes awhile to get back up but its almost as if the Zerg opponent can reproduce his army almost instantaneously. :S Is it worth poking zerg? or should it be ended with one push.
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On December 04 2011 09:29 Peanut Butter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 09:22 huehuehuehue wrote:On December 04 2011 09:17 Peanut Butter wrote:On December 04 2011 08:31 huehuehuehue wrote:http://drop.sc/6778820 minute TvP game on Tal'Darim Altar, he goes 4gate i go 1rax expand and hold it off. Then he expands and eventually i lose to his army. Can anyone look at this replay and point out some things that i'm doing wrong? I would have to say (Although I'm only in diamond) is that the main problem you had was that you were too passive. Although his 4-gate failed, all he lost was a stalker, and as a follow-up to it he double expanded and teched and did everything except make gateway units. Although you had a nice bio-ball, that number of colossi tear bio apart. He was also consistantly one base ahead of you after double expanding. I would highly suggest that you not over-commit on defences (You built another bunker after he retreated from his 4-gate) and do a timing push after your opponent retreats (A good one would have been when your stim finished or your +1 finished). I would also suggest you try to gain more map control, since he had control of the Towers for almost the entire game. P.S. It was 27 min. Also, forgive the wall of text. Thank you for the analysis. It says that it's 20mins on drop.sc for some reason. I believe its because Drop.sc calculates replay length in real time, since the in-game timer runs fast. Basically we are talking about the same length game.
20*1.33333333 = 26.6666666
Yeah. 20 minutes "realtime" is ~27 minutes ingame ^^
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EPT
