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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
Hi,
Im diamond Terran on EU. I’ve never been good in TvP matchup. I feel it is so protoss favored it makes me sick, but in the other hand some players are doing really good in it.
I have a bunch of random questions about the matchup, I don’t want to start new thread because I really don’t have replays to show my games right now (I haven’t played too much lately).
My game plan goes roughly like this:
Open with Bomber style 1 Rax FE. If I feel like scouting, I’ll send my SCV just to make sure he did FE build as well.
At 8:30 magic moment I prefer taking 3rd CC instead of 2 more rax almost every time. This is because I don’t feel like the 10min push would do any better, I’ll gain map control and stuff, but I don’t see myself winning right there (P already has sentries with infinite energy, maybe Colossus or even HT with a storm or couple). Anyways, I’ll scan the main around the same time and try to identify if he is teching towards HT or Colossai.
I still add the 2 rax a bit after CC.
At 10:00 in, I take the 3rd with both gases, make an Armory, 2nd Ebay and Ghost Academy (I’ve most of the time just taken it blindly - the academy itself isn’t that expensive).
If I haven’t figured out what he is doing, I float my scouting factory in his front.
In case of colossus I make 2nd starport and start viking production, make a little more marauders. In case of HT, I start the ghost energy upgrade and prefer marines over marauders.
By reading this guide, I’ve understood the money mix is;
- Ton of marines
- Not many marauder
- A lot of ghosts
- Vikings approximately 4 * <colossus count>
So the questions I have:
- Should I SCV-scout early (13-14 supply or after barracks finishes)?
- Is it actually safe to try to get watchtowers around ~7mins with my marine forces?
- How do you deal with early blink-in-main kind of business, like 4g blink with obs?
- In case of colossus, how many medivacs should I make before starting viking production?
- Do I add reactor to 2nd starport right away?
- How I deal with ridiculous amount of speed-zealots usually with HT + Archon?
Should I just try to get as big arc as possibly or kite back like no other day?
Maybe EMP everything?
- How many rax should I have when I get my 3rd base mining?
Add 4 more so total of 9?
How many should I have when the game goes longer (+15-20 min)? What addons?
- What is the standard timing of 4th base?
I’d really appreciate to have an answers in these questions.
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Here's my answers some people might disagree though.
Scout after Rax on 2 player maps but a bit earlier on 4 player as you need to see where that chrono is being spent.
You do want a couple of medivacs usually I make 4 and if. See colo switch after that just mak sure you keep an eye on if he stops production as you don't want to make Vikings if you don't have to. I tend to wait a little bit to add the reactor or just swap if off a Rax instead.
9 is a good amount of Rax for 3 base and usually at around 16 mins I'm upto 12 Rax with a 3:1 ratio of reactor to tech labs just so you can have good ghost production if you need it
And standard timing for 4th in most of my games is about 14mins but usually when I do that I also drop a 5th cc too.
As for an early blink push it is difficult to deal with splitting your army is key as you cant afford to weaken Your army too much you can try build a turret In you base to spot the obs as without it the start is harder. But there is practice in dealing with it but also plenty of guides exist for how to deal with the push
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So the questions I have:
- Should I SCV-scout early (13-14 supply or after barracks finishes)?
2 player map: Scout after rax
4 player map: ~13 scout
- Is it actually safe to try to get watchtowers around ~7mins with my marine forces?
Depends on what you scout. I like to poke the watchtower with my 6 first marines to chase the stalker away and spot for probes putting down pylons. If you scout chrono on the core I'd be VERY careful with this, as a 4-gate has its first warpin just after 6 minutes.
- How do you deal with early blink-in-main kind of business, like 4g blink with obs?
With the bomber build, get 2x techlabs and pump marauders, delay other tech until you can afford it. Stim is the most important to get. Push out with your first medivacs, but be careful for counter attacks. Don't be afraid to pull your scvs.
- In case of colossus, how many medivacs should I make before starting viking production?
Start vikings as soon as you see colossus. Normally thats after 4 medivacs, but sometimes it's after 2.
- Do I add reactor to 2nd starport right away?
Depends on how behind you are on viking production.
- How I deal with ridiculous amount of speed-zealots usually with HT + Archon?
Marines+ghosts, fight in chokes, EMP everything. Don't be afraid to get 20-30 ghosts.
- How many rax should I have when I get my 3rd base mining?
8-12 depending on how fast you tech, if you plan on going all-in and if you wanna get a fourth.
How many should I have when the game goes longer (+15-20 min)? What addons?
~12-15, depending on your bank. Max 3 rectors, tech labs on the rest.
- What is the standard timing of 4th base?
Depends on the game and build. If no1 attacks, 12-14 min maybe. If there's a lot of battles, it can take a lot longer.
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On October 25 2012 17:49 partycat wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Hi,
My game plan goes roughly like this:
Open with Bomber style 1 Rax FE. If I feel like scouting, I’ll send my SCV just to make sure he did FE build as well.
At 8:30 magic moment I prefer taking 3rd CC instead of 2 more rax almost every time. This is because I don’t feel like the 10min push would do any better, I’ll gain map control and stuff, but I don’t see myself winning right there (P already has sentries with infinite energy, maybe Colossus or even HT with a storm or couple). Anyways, I’ll scan the main around the same time and try to identify if he is teching towards HT or Colossai.
I still add the 2 rax a bit after CC.
At 10:00 in, I take the 3rd with both gases, make an Armory, 2nd Ebay and Ghost Academy (I’ve most of the time just taken it blindly - the academy itself isn’t that expensive).
If I haven’t figured out what he is doing, I float my scouting factory in his front.
In case of colossus I make 2nd starport and start viking production, make a little more marauders. In case of HT, I start the ghost energy upgrade and prefer marines over marauders.
[*] Should I SCV-scout early (13-14 supply or after barracks finishes)?
[*] Is it actually safe to try to get watchtowers around ~7mins with my marine forces?
[*] How do you deal with early blink-in-main kind of business, like 4g blink with obs?
[*] In case of colossus, how many medivacs should I make before starting viking production?
[*] Do I add reactor to 2nd starport right away?
[*] How I deal with ridiculous amount of speed-zealots usually with HT + Archon?
Should I just try to get as big arc as possibly or kite back like no other day?
Maybe EMP everything?
[*] How many rax should I have when I get my 3rd base mining?
Add 4 more so total of 9?
How many should I have when the game goes longer (+15-20 min)? What addons?
[*] What is the standard timing of 4th base?
I’d really appreciate to have an answers in these questions.
As a fellow diamond terran I can feel some of your frustration. It's hard to tell without replays but it sounds like you're just lacking in game sense. Don't take that personally or as an insult, we've all been there, where we follow a build order and blindly expect it to work just because we macro'd. It seems like you're scouting for the wrong reasons, and not really processing what you see correctly, in order to prepare reactively to what the protoss is doing. Yes we can copy a pro's build order and refine our mechanics, but until we understand their thought process and the strategy behind the idea of the build, it most likely just won't work, unless your opponent is just very bad. I don't really have a difficult time in TvP, and find it actually favoring terran if you survive the 2 base all-in window and make it into late-late game. Here's more or less my thought process when I go about executing a similar build as to what you described, in response to your questions.
If it's a 2 player map, scout after barracks, 4 player map, scout with your 13th SCV. If they aren't fast expanding, are they mining from 1 gas or 2? Count his chronoboosts on his cybernetics core. If there's only 1 gas, and he's chrono'd warpgate repeatedly, he may be dropping additional gateways as soon as his first stalker kills your scv. If he has double gas, was the first one completed by ~3:40. If yes, he may be getting a fast twilight council for blink stalkers, or dt's. If his second gas is started after his cybernetics core, he's playing more standard and may be getting a robo, or a stargate. If your SCV dies, send another one, or send it back around 5:30 to check for an expansion, and if he has any units yet.
Taking the watchtower is fine, as long as you didn't scout a 3/4 gate pressure opener. And is actually encouraged because then you can scout and deny any forward pylons.
Your 8 minute scan is a little late, try 7-7:30, as thats 30 seconds to a minute faster that you can prepare bunkers or turrets if you need them depending on the tech that you see. Adding the two barracks while your third command center is building is standard, and fine. During your scan, and scv scout, check to see if he has a robotics bay, a templar archives, or a third base. And what his unit composition is. If he has a high sentry count and no robotics bay, but he has 1/2 immortals, he's probably going for an immortal bust and you need to cut scvs to get as much army, and as many bunkers up as possible.
If you saw a robotics bay, and he's on 2 base, because you're going for a faster third base, you should start viking production right after your first 2 medevacs finish. If he's going for a squirtle 3 colossus push, add 3-5 bunkers at your natural ramp, since you dont have many medevacs out yet. (Flash demonstrated defending this after a fast 3CC in his OSL game vs San) Once you get 8-12 vikings resume medevacs. If you delayed your third command center, you can get away with 4 medevacs before vikings.
If you scouted a twilight council right after his gateway/cybernetics core, and if he has a high stalker count with your 5:30 scout, build a bunker(s) with a turret along the cliff edge to your main to deny any blinks up the cliff. You don't auto-win, but it's actually a pretty easy hold and sets you pretty far ahead if you defend. (There was a recent series in the GSL season 4, but I cant remember the matchup, when I find out I'll update this post with the pro-game for reference.
You shouldn't really get your second starport up until your 2/2 and ghost academy is started, and after you've taken your 5th/6th gas geysers. If you came out ahead during your first major engagement, yes you should have time to reactor the second starport. If not, I would delay it until you stall with a minor drop or something to keep the protoss occupied.
Dealing with chargelot/archon is my biggest issue in TvP, I can't really comment on it yet, so far it seems like the only way I can deal with it is to planetary chokes and force engagements around the choke points. As it's pretty hard to have enough ghost energy to snipe templar, double emp archons, then blanket emp the zealots that early.
As you take your third base your fourth/fifth rax should be finished, and 6/7th started. Once it's fully saturated add an 8th/9th. (With those 4, I usually add 1 reactor/3 tech lab to get more ghosts out.) So, 7/9 Rax, 2 starport, and constant upgrades on 3 base. With each additional base after that 2 rax and a starport if multiple robo/colossi, or 4 barracks. The addons depend on your opponents playstyle. Heavy gate/way you usually want a pretty even balance, so 2 tech labs per reactor. If stargate play, or archons/immortals, maybe a 1/1 ratio.
The timing for a fourth base really depends on how your game is playing out. If there's a lot of back and fourth attacking, then the game can stay on 3 base for quite awhile until one of you gets an advantage. If it's more of a poke/prod game, a fourth should be made anywhere from 12-16 minutes, with an additional command center every few minutes after that.
Also another note, make sure your upgrades are constant, especially because you're not going fast double e-bay. Make sure your second e-bay and armory are started at 60-80% of +1 armor (or attack if you want them faster), and add your ghost academy right after you start 2/1, or 2/2.
I'll edit and cite more pro-game references when I remember them.Good luck though.
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two questions, in tvp when i scan for tech path, I often miss when i scan main (as protoss i hide my tech from scans as well). if i scan his army to know for sure whether he went colossi or templar (because i can see them) what is the best time to do this off of a 1 gate expo?
also in tvz playing hellion banshee after gasless expo into mech, if the zerg has on top of his inject queens as high as 5 or 6 creep spreading queens with an overseer how can i deny creep, i cant fight them with banshees due to transfuse and overseer? Played a gm zerg the other evening who had creep spreading into my third base by the time i wanted to push out. do i just have to accept the zerg can spread creep as much as he wants against me if im going mech?
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Hi I am a gold league Terran, (very near platinum Terran) I have come to the conclusion that protoss is fucking broken. A-Move is way too powerful and they only need one hotkey for their entire army. Templar are extremely easy to control compared to Ghosts. I am Platinum with P and Z, so I have used templar before and infestors so I know how easy it is to use those fuckers. I am really pissed off at the ladder, because every protoss opens up 3 gate robo, gets 1 or 2 immortals and techs straight to colossi, I scout it, DESTROY THEIR SHITTY A MOVE. then they tech switch to templar, I scout it, get ghosts. emp their entire army and then ONE templar storm destroys my entire army. why make 6-8 templar if only one storm kills a terran bioforce. its fucking retarded. anyone who plays protoss, you're mentally handicapped and that is 99% of the reason you play protoss, because its so fucking easy. That is all.
Edit: also, i watch the replays. i am at 2-2 by the time their double forge is down, yet still one templar destroys my entire army. this game sucks. Blizzard sucks at balancing, always has. WoW sucks with balance too.
Edit #2: And the fact that I'm gold league means my micro isn't perfect. Every single game I play, my macro is better than my opponents. I have higher supply, more scvs and my reactions are much better. Its hard to double snipe templar especially when i can barely see them. I only have one question, other than that, this post was just for raging purposes. The question being: How can anyone whos micro isn't PERFECT possibly beat a protoss who just has to a move and then press T? and no replays because the games i just had i raged worse than this and id rather you guys not see it. (i was fucking furious because i outplayed him all game, at one point it was 140 supply vs like 90.. but since he had 2 templar and 3 archons and a shit ton of chargelots, i had no opportunity to beat him at that point.)
User was temp banned for this post.
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Show me a replay where A SINGLE storm kills your entire army. I think you may be exaggerating a bit.
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it's true. I've resorted to 111 and 2 rax all in everygame vs protoss because playing a macro game is basically suicide unless you outplay the shit out of the fucker and have godly micro to counteract his a move
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No, it isn't. I'm only in platinum, yet TvP is my best match-up. You can definitely win in a macro game vs P. The key is engaging correctly and making enough ghosts and vikings.
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PvT is far from imbalanced. I've played both sides at high-diamond, low masters, and there's difficulties in both sides. TvP isn't my best matchup, but it's not "basically suicide unless you play the shit out of the fucker and have godly micro to counteract his a move". Anybody who says otherwise needs to watch more pro games.
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Hey I can't figure out what is wrong. I did hellion banshee. I kept trying to pressure him, And in the end he has ultras and i lose.
http://drop.sc/zergop.sc2replay
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On October 26 2012 03:36 Liszt wrote:
it's true. I've resorted to 111 and 2 rax all in everygame vs protoss because playing a macro game is basically suicide unless you outplay the shit out of the fucker and have godly micro to counteract his a move
I love all you guys lol. Godly micro. You all are being so immature and silly, it doesn't require 'godly micro' just don't ball up and expect to win with a ball stutter stepping. Try doing a full arc concave and box splitting back in sections to draw zealots to charge into areas, and note where collsai are targetting etc.
In short -- maybe you just don't have what it takes, and need to relearn how to micro properly.
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Hi!
I wanted to ask for some tips for lategame TvP.
I have problems with fighting in good positions in general and ghost/viking dance against templar/stalker/colossus.
It feels like somehow I always end up losing too many vikings when I try to snipe colossai or get my ghosts killed before they can emp all the templar.
My lategame army composition is mostly marauders, a lot of ghosts and a few marines. Viking counts are good I think.
A practice map for only lategame with given army compositions would be ideal, but I doubt something like this exists?
I have no idea how to upload replays, and recently I've only played 1-1-1s because I was too depressed with my lategame TvP... But anyway, hope someone has some advice!
Thanks in advance,
kma
PS: 1,2k points master
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On October 26 2012 07:16 JonIrenicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 06:26 iAmJeffReY wrote:On October 26 2012 03:36 Liszt wrote:
it's true. I've resorted to 111 and 2 rax all in everygame vs protoss because playing a macro game is basically suicide unless you outplay the shit out of the fucker and have godly micro to counteract his a move I love all you guys lol. Godly micro. You all are being so immature and silly, it doesn't require 'godly micro' just don't ball up and expect to win with a ball stutter stepping. Try doing a full arc concave and box splitting back in sections to draw zealots to charge into areas, and note where collsai are targetting etc. In short -- maybe you just don't have what it takes, and need to relearn how to micro properly. I must admit. TvP is easy. but tvz... what's your idea of it? 
To me, TvZ is easier than TvP. I have a better grasp of the flow of a TvZ, partly because it was already my best matchup pre-patch, but mostly because I studied a lot of TvZ right after the patch. As long as you maintain a stable economy, maintain your macro, and know when to be aggressive, you have a good chance of winning.
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On October 26 2012 08:35 Whatson wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 07:16 JonIrenicus wrote:On October 26 2012 06:26 iAmJeffReY wrote:On October 26 2012 03:36 Liszt wrote:
it's true. I've resorted to 111 and 2 rax all in everygame vs protoss because playing a macro game is basically suicide unless you outplay the shit out of the fucker and have godly micro to counteract his a move I love all you guys lol. Godly micro. You all are being so immature and silly, it doesn't require 'godly micro' just don't ball up and expect to win with a ball stutter stepping. Try doing a full arc concave and box splitting back in sections to draw zealots to charge into areas, and note where collsai are targetting etc. In short -- maybe you just don't have what it takes, and need to relearn how to micro properly. I must admit. TvP is easy. but tvz... what's your idea of it? To me, TvZ is easier than TvP. I have a better grasp of the flow of a TvZ, partly because it was already my best matchup pre-patch, but mostly because I studied a lot of TvZ right after the patch. As long as you maintain a stable economy, maintain your macro, and know when to be aggressive, you have a good chance of winning.
I also think that many players still rely too much on this idea of 'timing' and 'counters'. It's true that it's important to hit good attacks and synchronize them with upgrades, but if you watch pro players, the battle is almost always about CONTROL as opposed to getting to do an attack or countering the opponents composition. This is why you'll see players like Taeja, Stephano, MVP, and Rain pull away from scenarios where many Masters/GM and lower-league players would simply commit to doing damage or following through with their timing.
In any matchup, regardless of whether it's TvP, TvZ, or anything else, study your replays and pro VoDs to see how control is gained and lost by each side. What is it that makes Taeja or Rain able to just move out on the map, and how does that grant him more control? Is it just map control, or is it dictating a response from his opponent based on what type of army he moves out with?
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http://drop.sc/267900
So aside from the fact that he mined more than me, how did I end up losing this 45 minute game? I was ahead on upgrades, had a better army, and positioned my army better.
Yes I realize I hit a supply cap at 177 while he was maxed out, yet I came out of that engagement one favoured as I had lost less than him, and lost less than him overall in the game. He had too many SCVs on 3 bases, while I was late at taking a 4th and 5th base so that hindered my macro a bit. However in terms of micro, I think I traded pretty well, except for when I was trying to take down this 4th base.
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On October 26 2012 10:52 geokilla wrote:http://drop.sc/267900So aside from the fact that he mined more than me, how did I end up losing this 45 minute game? I was ahead on upgrades, had a better army, and positioned my army better. Yes I realize I hit a supply cap at 177 while he was maxed out, yet I came out of that engagement one favoured as I had lost less than him, and lost less than him overall in the game. He had too many SCVs on 3 bases, while I was late at taking a 4th and 5th base so that hindered my macro a bit. However in terms of micro, I think I traded pretty well, except for when I was trying to take down this 4th base.
One thing is that he's macroing better up until the 18 minute mark. He's obviously not perfectly hitting his production cycles and he's queuing a lot, but in general he's producing more than you are. Even though you trade armies, he always gets the supply lead in the 10-20 minute range because of his macro.
Second, even though you have the upgrade advantage up until the 22ish minute mark, you don't actually pressure him, even though you've been on 2-2 the entire time while he's been on 1-1. And so he gets his 3-3 bio faster than you.
Btw, you've been maxed and 40 army supply up against his 150 for forever now. As a general rule, push when maxed.
And you seem to have a really bad habit of leaving parts of your army isolated, so you continually lose chunks of your army by engaging piecemeal - like for example you continually send groups of marines and tanks to the left expo, but he always destroys it with his whole force. It would be fine if while he was distracted with that attack to move the rest of your army into a solid siege position, but you don't really do that.
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On October 26 2012 06:26 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:36 Liszt wrote:
it's true. I've resorted to 111 and 2 rax all in everygame vs protoss because playing a macro game is basically suicide unless you outplay the shit out of the fucker and have godly micro to counteract his a move I love all you guys lol. Godly micro. You all are being so immature and silly, it doesn't require 'godly micro' just don't ball up and expect to win with a ball stutter stepping. Try doing a full arc concave and box splitting back in sections to draw zealots to charge into areas, and note where collsai are targetting etc. In short -- maybe you just don't have what it takes, and need to relearn how to micro properly.
I know right? The terran whines are really funny to read as a terran yourself lol
Hey guys, heres something to blow your mind with - TvP is the SIMPLEST MATCHUP out of the three.
On October 26 2012 08:35 Whatson wrote:
To me, TvZ is easier than TvP. I have a better grasp of the flow of a TvZ, partly because it was already my best matchup pre-patch, but mostly because I studied a lot of TvZ right after the patch. As long as you maintain a stable economy, maintain your macro, and know when to be aggressive, you have a good chance of winning.
Flow in TvP? What flow?
Either play greedy->defend his attack/sit back and macro->big engagement->correct control = win, incorrect control = lose, mediocre control = redo.
Or, Aggressive opener -> did significant damage ->all in him/sit back and macro into timing attack and win or ->no significant damage -> really behind -> play greedy/defensive and pray hes dumb, or -> come out even, resort to previous flow.
Wait....that is a flow...........
Ok theres no flow in TvZ because its just
Open greedy with harrass option -> harrass+macro -> harrass+macro -> harrass+macro -> harrass+macro -> harrass+macro -> harrass+macro -> either hes dead (or almost dead and there should be a window for you to go kill him) or you failed macro while harrassing and you are dead -> one player is slightly behind and has to do something brilliant to catch up
For some reason my TvT is almost exactly like my TvZ....
God damn hellion banshee openers.
yeah...
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http://drop.sc/267966
Diamond Terran here.
I was wondering if someone could assist me on this replay, my protoss opponent goes nexus first, I'm doing a typical 1 rax FE into double barracks then straight to double gas, I usually do the 2-medivac timing push. Since I saw my opponent go nexus first I decided to save all my scans for mules and forego the defensive bunker usually when doing the 1 rax FE. However the protoss goes for quick DTs which I can't scout since I saved all of my scans (I missed my scan anyway at 7:30). DTs arrive at around 9:30 mark, at this point I'm already down by 20 workers!! (59-39). I know I missed some SCV production cycles but still that difference seems staggering. He's got like 3 DTs and hardly any army at all and is expanding again. At this point I'm pretty lost how I'm supposed to react to this situation. I try to go for a counter attack and kill his third however he cleans up with a small DT and colussus army. I missed a ton of SCV production I noticed but for a protoss to have 73 probes at the 10 minute seems like I'm not punishing greedy play. Even after going through the replay I'm not sure how to respond to all the different situations.
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EPT
