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On June 17 2012 02:38 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 02:21 xertion wrote:On June 17 2012 01:53 monkybone wrote:
So many Terran builds nowadays seems to be BO losses to a variety of Zerg all ins. I don't think a quick 3 CC build can defend both fast 2 base muta and roach baneling all ins. Especially not those going CC before either tanks or starport. This assumes that the terran does not scout, at all. My normal buildorder is the fastexpand into 4 reactor hellions into third command center. I scout at 15 supply and check the Zergs gas. If they have gas, I keep my scv on the map and I run into his base when his Zerglings is out on the map (usually they dont camp ramp with lings). If they kill the scv, I just scan. This is done before my factory is done. If they are still mining gas there is probably a Roach or a baneling all in coming. I then just leave the reactor on the racks, build a techlab on the factory and I get 2 tanks out before their Roach + Baneling + Speedling all in hits. Meanwhile I also build an additional bunker (I build first bunker when I see first gas with 15 scout, since probably coming speedling runby minimum) and I wall in. When wall in and bunkers are up, I build my third orbital. Example replay of exactly this scenario is below. Notice that I'm a few seconds late on my siege tank and siege upgrade. If I upgraded even faster then I would've hold it even easier. Notice that I do have 3 command centers when his Roach + Baneling all in hits. Lastly. If there is no roach + baneling all in coming, I build 4 hellions. These hellions are used for map control and to check and deny his third base. If there is no attempts for a third base I scan base for Lair/Spire. 2 base spire is usually up before 9-10min. 3 base Spire is up at like 12-ish minute I think. At 10 minutes you easily have the marines needed to deny his Mutalisk harrass on your 2 bases. Ofcourse you do not move your third orbital to a new base until you feel safe. REPLAY: http://speedy.sh/rmAYu/teamliquid-example.SC2Replay Zerg can have around 7 roaches in your natural at the 6:30 mark. This is something DRG likes to do. I don't see how you could cost-effectively defend that without a banshee on the way, quicker tanks, or blind marauders, especially with a ling followup. Around 7 mutas can also be in your main at 8:30. At this point, according to your explanation (if im not mistaken) you would have 6 marines and a bunker at your natural unless you scouted the early spire. That you scan so early for spire is safe, but very uncommon. It's also not uncommon to hide super early spires on the edge of your main with overlord creep to prevent being scouted by a scan. You reacted very well in that game, but I don't believe you have an entirely foolproof strategy versus Zerg allins.
Thats because there is no foolproof strategy against that. You will take quite a few losses even if you hold unless he makes mistakes. The sad fact is there is no safe opener that doesn't autlose later on if the Zerg plays economical.
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On June 17 2012 02:38 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 02:21 xertion wrote:On June 17 2012 01:53 monkybone wrote:
So many Terran builds nowadays seems to be BO losses to a variety of Zerg all ins. I don't think a quick 3 CC build can defend both fast 2 base muta and roach baneling all ins. Especially not those going CC before either tanks or starport. This assumes that the terran does not scout, at all. My normal buildorder is the fastexpand into 4 reactor hellions into third command center. I scout at 15 supply and check the Zergs gas. If they have gas, I keep my scv on the map and I run into his base when his Zerglings is out on the map (usually they dont camp ramp with lings). If they kill the scv, I just scan. This is done before my factory is done. If they are still mining gas there is probably a Roach or a baneling all in coming. I then just leave the reactor on the racks, build a techlab on the factory and I get 2 tanks out before their Roach + Baneling + Speedling all in hits. Meanwhile I also build an additional bunker (I build first bunker when I see first gas with 15 scout, since probably coming speedling runby minimum) and I wall in. When wall in and bunkers are up, I build my third orbital. Example replay of exactly this scenario is below. Notice that I'm a few seconds late on my siege tank and siege upgrade. If I upgraded even faster then I would've hold it even easier. Notice that I do have 3 command centers when his Roach + Baneling all in hits. Lastly. If there is no roach + baneling all in coming, I build 4 hellions. These hellions are used for map control and to check and deny his third base. If there is no attempts for a third base I scan base for Lair/Spire. 2 base spire is usually up before 9-10min. 3 base Spire is up at like 12-ish minute I think. At 10 minutes you easily have the marines needed to deny his Mutalisk harrass on your 2 bases. Ofcourse you do not move your third orbital to a new base until you feel safe. REPLAY: http://speedy.sh/rmAYu/teamliquid-example.SC2Replay Zerg can have around 7 roaches in your natural at the 6:30 mark. This is something DRG likes to do. I don't see how you could cost-effectively defend that without a banshee on the way, quicker tanks, or blind marauders, especially with a ling followup. Around 7 mutas can also be in your main at 8:30. At this point, according to your explanation (if im not mistaken) you would have 6 marines and a bunker at your natural unless you scouted the early spire. That you scan so early for spire is safe, but very uncommon. It's also not uncommon to hide super early spires on the edge of your main with overlord creep to prevent being scouted by a scan. You reacted very well in that game, but I don't believe you have an entirely foolproof strategy versus Zerg allins.
In this case we were talking about the Roach + Speedling + Baneling all in. Regarding only the roach push, you can successfully hold that with good repairs and good building placements. I'm not saying I'm positive I would hold DRG, I'm saying I have no issues holding low master high diamond roach pushes with good scout, good building placement and repair on bunker(s).
Ofcourse, the roach do damage and get SCV kills. But the Terran has 3 orbital so losing scv's isnt a big issue. Also to me it sounds as if you assume that the mutas or the roaches come blind for the Terran. As you can see, scouting gas and scaning when factory finishes up is crucial. Which would probably also save you from super early mutas (Build enginering bay when you scan and leave reactor on racks).
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On June 16 2012 20:04 dynwar7 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 17:57 Angel_ wrote:On June 16 2012 17:28 dynwar7 wrote:
Ok, when I am bio vs a meching Terran, people say to drops and abuse immobility of the mech....but what if they have a good number of missile turrets? Not mass....but not few(so I can run straight past them), but just enough to kill my medivacs so quickly....if I cannot drop vs Mech, what can I do? Plus what if they use sensor towers to deny my drops?
Now that drops is no longer possible, what can a bio player do vs mech -.- go around his army when he starts to move out and base trade, which you should have a severe advantage on from your greater mobility and higher base count. and/or if it's apparent that you can't drop soon enough deny his third as long as you can, and absolutely any fourth; even with missile turrets if he's too spread out you can do BIG medivac drops (4) and replenish hella fast to abuse him for being too spread out since you should be on 5+ bases. when he pushes, either base trade, OR try to force the engagement early and whittle him down slowly as he tries to siege walk the map, since again, you can reinforce faster, AND punish his other bases while you force him to siege up. and/or if it's apparent that you can't drop soon enough (in any of these we're assuming you're being greedy with bases since you can get away with it)...go air. drop as efficiently as you can and just go mass air. you've got an insane potential gas count, use it and then laugh at his tanks with bc/raven/viking. Thanks mate. So, what is a good time to drop? As soon as I have 2 medivacs? I want to do this too but I am afraid I will get attacked while my 2 medivacs' worth of army are away...
Really, whenever is good. I mean, yeah, if he goes for late siege tech earlier can be stronger. Yeah if he's going for some banshee opening or hellion drop opening you MIGHT not want to move out. But really the best answer for when, and the best answer for "how do i learn to not be afraid of him attacking while i'm moved out" is just to scout and have map awareness. a meching player CANNOT move fast without being really really all-in to do it. abuse it.
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How do you hold off blink stalker all ins when you 1 rax expand? Either with an obs or without an obs, it's ridiculously hard for me to hold off.
Even when I scout it, and I build bunkers, add rax, and pull scvs off gas, they always over power me, and my bio and scvs can't do anything because of blink. I watch streams and most top players have trouble holding it off also.
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On June 17 2012 03:03 Blyadischa wrote:
How do you hold off blink stalker all ins when you 1 rax expand? Either with an obs or without an obs, it's ridiculously hard for me to hold off.
Even when I scout it, and I build bunkers, add rax, and pull scvs off gas, they always over power me, and my bio and scvs can't do anything because of blink. I watch streams and most top players have trouble holding it off also.
¨
This is a replay where I hold off a 4 Gate Blink Stalker + Observer on Shakuras Plateau. I crush him.
Key is to be at the right place when he blinks in. Also, when I was playing I was all the time looking for his observer to the right side of my base to see if I could see and snipe it; unfourtunately I did not see it. However I crushed him anyway.
Very important not to be afraid of pulling your scv's. When they 1 base all in, I feel very comfortable as long as I crush their push; even if I lose a couple of workers (Since I have 2 orbitals, they have 1 nexus and probably stopped probe production).
He did a big mistake on his blink though when he blinked behind my mineral line instead of back down. However, even if he blinked down I think that I hold the "rough part" and I think it wouldve been easier and easier after that.
REPLAY:
http://speedy.sh/XuNss/4g-blink.SC2Replay
Opponent is top diamond I think.
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As a low apm player, what should be my priority when facing a toss army? I think like this : EMP templars, focus fire with vikings & then kiting with whole marines/marauders. I know, it's very position dependant, but am I prioritising things the right way?
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On June 17 2012 03:49 nojok wrote:
As a low apm player, what should be my priority when facing a toss army? I think like this : EMP templars, focus fire with vikings & then kiting with whole marines/marauders. I know, it's very position dependant, but am I prioritising things the right way?
The most simple thing you could do is to make sure that you only engage the protoss deathball in a big open area where you can have a huge arc with your units. If you pick fight in a position like this, a lot less micro is needed for you to win the game. It's a lot easier to dodge storms then if you run your army through a narrow choke or pick fight in a small area where there is no possibility to create a big arc.
Make sure that your units are in that arc BEFORE the protoss engage you. Same thing when playing vs a Zerg and you know he i coming against you with banelings or fungal. You spread your marines before the fight even begins. Same thing vs Protoss but you spread in an arc instead.
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On June 17 2012 03:49 nojok wrote:
As a low apm player, what should be my priority when facing a toss army? I think like this : EMP templars, focus fire with vikings & then kiting with whole marines/marauders. I know, it's very position dependant, but am I prioritising things the right way?
#1 Picking an area with enough space to create a concave
#2 EMPing the whole Protoss army !
It isn´t allways enough to emp all the ht´s and sometimes it´s almost impossible. Make sure you have enough emps before you engage a protoss army and emp the whole army. If he just have 3-4 storms left they can be easily dodged and you should still be able to win the fight.
#3 Stim
#4 Shift Attack all the collosi with your vikings
#5 move your units out of the storm
This is simply done by selecting your units, which are stormed, manually and move them with a move command out of the storm. If you do this quickly the storm won´t do that much damage and your medivacs should be able to heal up your units.
#6 kiting
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Yeah I knew about the arc, but thank you for your responses, I think it will help me. I have a step before your #1, the #0 is toss moves out : drop! I ask this because I start facing diamond players a lot more those days, and I want to know how to face their late game when it happens (Sometimes it happens, don't like it).
My gameplan vs P is gasless expand, if I scout 1 gas (2 gas = prepare for cheese) => check if one gate expand (or nexus 1st) if so => 4 naked rax pressure with around 16 marines, then tech stim +1 CS & conc shell ( from 3 TL rax + 1 reactored) fact starport & one more rax during all of this, no one gate expand but still expand 3 raxes into fast stim/medivacs push, preparing for some pressure => go to his base with 1st 2 medivacs : scan his front colossi => move back, one marine to check his 3rd, stay in front of his base, prepare 2 medivacs for when he moves out & drop if so. I decide from feeling if I build 3rd CC or 4th & 5th rax 1st. If no colossi go in!!
So once my 3rd is up I try to deny his 3rd, add more rax, aff ghost academy when I know I need it, keep on upgrades, scout etc. But no real plan.
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On June 17 2012 01:53 monkybone wrote:
So many Terran builds nowadays seems to be BO losses to a variety of Zerg all ins. I don't think a quick 3 CC build can defend both fast 2 base muta and roach baneling all ins. Especially not those going CC before either tanks or starport.
I had the same feeling you do, which is why I started doing FE into fast tank.
I go 1rax FE (or 15cc), reactor helli, and 2nd fac @100gas, then instant siegetank/siegetech while still pumping hellions and having ncie simcity in my natural, and a pretty fast third (around the 8 minute mark). I haven't lost to a single all-in with it so far. Of course, the all-ins aren't the problem. I welcome any Zerg who is stupid enough to ignore his freewin in the lategame by doing some all-in.
Mutas aren't used too often, and you can definitely blindly defend against it, 2base mutas aren't that scary because he won't be able to make that many. Personally, I get an armory after my 2nd fac if I don't scout a third, and get an engi bay, and scan his main. This way I can have thor/turrets against muta in time.
I also enjoy 2port after FE, but I think it just flat out dies to any early roach pressure.
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Can anybody suggest a way of opening mech for TvT?
I have no clue on how to open mech properly at all 
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What is a good response to Z's that get a fast third and 6 queens early?
I always open gasless 1 rax or 14 CC. If I go gas first Z will see it and not do the fast third so that's out of the picture. I was thinking of a rauder/hellion followup but wasnt sure.
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as a mech player in tvz what's the correct response to Ultra? If it's Brood Lords and such i can handle but when ultras enter the playing arena i try to make thors and get the 250 mm cannons but a lot of times it's with lings/festor and that's all he has
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On June 17 2012 06:57 Blackknight232 wrote:
as a mech player in tvz what's the correct response to Ultra? If it's Brood Lords and such i can handle but when ultras enter the playing arena i try to make thors and get the 250 mm cannons but a lot of times it's with lings/festor and that's all he has
You don't need strike cannons. Upgraded Thors melt ultras.
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On June 17 2012 07:12 xPabt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 06:57 Blackknight232 wrote:
as a mech player in tvz what's the correct response to Ultra? If it's Brood Lords and such i can handle but when ultras enter the playing arena i try to make thors and get the 250 mm cannons but a lot of times it's with lings/festor and that's all he has You don't need strike cannons. Upgraded Thors melt ultras.
Don't listen to him. The correct response to ultras is always tanks.
User was banned: PBU
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On June 17 2012 06:57 Blackknight232 wrote:
as a mech player in tvz what's the correct response to Ultra? If it's Brood Lords and such i can handle but when ultras enter the playing arena i try to make thors and get the 250 mm cannons but a lot of times it's with lings/festor and that's all he has
Strike Cannons have the same DPS as Thors but make the Thors unable to move and can't be microed and since Ultras can't be stunned Ultras might kill the Thors before strike cannons is set-up or just move out of range. Don't get this ability its useless .
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On June 17 2012 07:58 From Afar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 07:12 xPabt wrote:On June 17 2012 06:57 Blackknight232 wrote:
as a mech player in tvz what's the correct response to Ultra? If it's Brood Lords and such i can handle but when ultras enter the playing arena i try to make thors and get the 250 mm cannons but a lot of times it's with lings/festor and that's all he has You don't need strike cannons. Upgraded Thors melt ultras. Don't listen to him. The correct response to ultras is always tanks.
Thats wrong THors against Ultras are stronger . And if the opponent switches from BL to Ultras he can easily switch back then you have a bunch tanks you probably regret having build.
In general Thors against Zerg are decent against anything but alot of Roaches and suprisingly enough Hydras.
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On June 17 2012 07:58 From Afar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 07:12 xPabt wrote:On June 17 2012 06:57 Blackknight232 wrote:
as a mech player in tvz what's the correct response to Ultra? If it's Brood Lords and such i can handle but when ultras enter the playing arena i try to make thors and get the 250 mm cannons but a lot of times it's with lings/festor and that's all he has You don't need strike cannons. Upgraded Thors melt ultras. Don't listen to him. The correct response to ultras is always tanks.
That's just not true....
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EPT
