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Hello all,
I am a newly master league player this season and I was wondering if you good people can give me some tips / critique the following game.
Replay:http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/11065
I do the MMA drop ship build (featured on Day[9]'s steal this build).
The Game:
My initial drops worked quite well, I believe I took out quite a lot of drones.
I was successfully able to take out his third and was feeling like a boss at this time as I had my own third running.
At this point I thought I won.
However as I attempt to deny his gold expansion a battle occurs and it looks like I lost quite a lot. I think to myself that this is okay since I should have a better economy.
However the zerg is able to keep pumping out mutas etc and I cannot deal.
I have better upgrades, where did I go wrong?
Personal Rage: Banelings are fucking gay, just roll right in and trade armies. Terran takes time to rebuild army and Zerg is able to remake army in 5 seconds. The fuck?
Please help me improve and provide me some criticism.
Be harsh and honest, I won't get butt hurt.
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Nevermind, my initial drops sucked my left nut.
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Okayy i watched your replay, and based on what i see, your macro slips on some occasions like, when dropping, and you focused too much on drops.
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Thanks for pointing that out,
Did you see any other flaws?
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Being a homophobe with a serious need of attitude adjustment in regards to balance.
(Protip: you're not supposed to be able to reproduce your army like Zerg can. If you let them get to that in the game unmolested you will lose and deserve to.
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Not using gay as a homophobic slur sir, I am sure you know people often use it as a synonym as "stupid/dumb".
Good day White Knight.
Edit: I labeled it as "Rage" for a reason. When one rages, one is not rational.
Get out of the pub and hit the school.
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as a zerg who knows how to play terran, master, i see u dont worker split. thats the most important thing u should work on early game. this will give u more smooth timings etc and especially on xel naga u can have 4 stacked mineral patches with the 1st 8 workers.
2. check his pool timing. it can tell a lot.
3. research combat shield earlier so u can switch it faster with factory and make the factory faster. u could have researched stim earlier too.
4. if ur not harrassing then take towers with reapers.
5. worker production can go a lot better.if u play standard terran(macro) then u need to be equal worker because zerg can trade efficiently or evenly most of the time.
6. why no gold expo? the 3rd u took is harder to defend it seems. maybe cause u were afraid of kamikaze rushes?
7.no upgrades. if u go marine heavy then upgrades are necessary. get a engeneering bay after initial 3 raxes if possible.
8.tech labs on raxes no marauders or reapers.
9. switch to tank marine vs muta ling. make some more thors pls. dropping a muta zerg isnt the best option to go for. u will always lose the drop no matter what.
10. dont try to siege contain if u dont have enough tanks. especially vs mutas.
11. 2.5k gas at 23 min. lolz? dont u have something that tells u to stop mining gas after u got that much disproportion? for zerg its different. the best units are gas heavy units. terran has mostly mineral heavy units that have uses.
12. try smoothening ur build as soon as u can. that makes big difference.
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I'm not sure if you noticed, but I was ahead of him in terms of upgrades and I also produced marauders. Are you referring to the mid-game, if yes, then you are right I was going pure marine/tank then.
As for the other tips, thank you, they were illuminating and I'll keep them in mind.
One question:
What do you mean by "worker split"?
I do worker split at the start.
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On August 03 2011 09:17 MKultra wrote:
Not using gay as a homophobic slur sir, I am sure you know people often use it as a synonym as "stupid/dumb".
Good day White Knight.
Edit: I labeled it as "Rage" for a reason. When one rages, one is not rational.
Get out of the pub and hit the school.
You should of just said "bangling drops are dumb/stupid" instead of gay.
The real meaning of gay is happy - so you are actually saying something totally different.
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On August 03 2011 09:24 MKultra wrote:
I'm not sure if you noticed, but I was ahead of him in terms of upgrades and I also produced marauders. Are you referring to the mid-game, if yes, then you are right I was going pure marine/tank then.
As for the other tips, thank you, they were illuminating and I'll keep them in mind.
One question:
What do you mean by "worker split"?
I do worker split at the start.
ur upgrades were late, dont know if u know. his upgrades were also late, this u should know. and as for worker splitting, i meant worker stack. thats giving 2 workers 1 mineral patch. the workers will mine slightly faster so giving more minerals. u should do this on the closest mineral patches. marauders were pretty late and behind marines in engagements.
i would like to know how u think about ur early game build. i think its pretty grave to not have a smooth execution as terran.
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On August 03 2011 09:25 Scrogglez wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 09:17 MKultra wrote:
Not using gay as a homophobic slur sir, I am sure you know people often use it as a synonym as "stupid/dumb".
Good day White Knight.
Edit: I labeled it as "Rage" for a reason. When one rages, one is not rational.
Get out of the pub and hit the school. You should of just said "bangling drops are dumb/stupid" instead of gay. The real meaning of gay is happy - so you are actually saying something totally different.
if the real meaning of gay is happy why do you care when people use it to mean dumb/stupid
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IMO, i think bfh would have been more cost effective, and considering they have good synergy with the immobility of marine/tank and offer great opportunities to fry mineral lines. There wasn't anything wrong with your drops, you kept him running around and he lost a bit of mining time, but i think you should've gotten out thors much earlier (i think your first one came at around 18 minutes). I mean it's not bad at all to skip thors considering he can just magic box, but it would force the zerg to be a bit more conservative with his mutas and might try for ultra or blords. Also with tanks, i think you were being too aggressive with them, and it would be a good idea to back them up against a wall or something so they won't be surrounded. Practice splitting your marines as well, and you can basically "magic box" with them too, making banelings/mutas a loot less effective. I think you could have done without the reapers and gone a 2rax bunker expand, because an operational bunker is a zerg's worst nightmare early game. But because you're going for drops, 2rax would have delayed that so it's your choice lol. But anyways, try throwing in some hellions with your drops, see how that turns out for you. I really like hellions, because they are such a good worker-killer, and they give you great map control with very little apm. They aren't the answer to a mass of lings however, so don't incorporate them into your main army. You want marine/tank, with hellions to run around. And take your time, siege up and build mazes with depots (tower defense for the win!), bunkers, and turrets, as long as you're keeping up with your small harassment, you'll be fine, you multi task well and you do a fairly good job with keeping up with your macro, just take your time 
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On August 03 2011 09:25 Scrogglez wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 09:17 MKultra wrote:
Not using gay as a homophobic slur sir, I am sure you know people often use it as a synonym as "stupid/dumb".
Good day White Knight.
Edit: I labeled it as "Rage" for a reason. When one rages, one is not rational.
Get out of the pub and hit the school. You should of just said "bangling drops are dumb/stupid" instead of gay. The real meaning of gay is happy - so you are actually saying something totally different.
I know that the literal meaning of gay is happy,
I also know that you do not live under a rock and know for a fact that in our time (2011) it is often also used as a slang for "stupid/dumb".
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On August 03 2011 09:30 agahamsorr0w wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 09:24 MKultra wrote:
I'm not sure if you noticed, but I was ahead of him in terms of upgrades and I also produced marauders. Are you referring to the mid-game, if yes, then you are right I was going pure marine/tank then.
As for the other tips, thank you, they were illuminating and I'll keep them in mind.
One question:
What do you mean by "worker split"?
I do worker split at the start. ur upgrades were late, dont know if u know. his upgrades were also late, this u should know. and as for worker splitting, i meant worker stack. thats giving 2 workers 1 mineral patch. the workers will mine slightly faster so giving more minerals. u should do this on the closest mineral patches. marauders were pretty late and behind marines in engagements. i would like to know how u think about ur early game build. i think its pretty grave to not have a smooth execution as terran.
Thanks again for the info.
Yes I know my build is not smooth yet, I have just started practicing this build.
This is maybe my 6-8th game running it.
Hoping it will get smoother as I practice.
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On August 03 2011 09:51 TangFish wrote:IMO, i think bfh would have been more cost effective, and considering they have good synergy with the immobility of marine/tank and offer great opportunities to fry mineral lines. There wasn't anything wrong with your drops, you kept him running around and he lost a bit of mining time, but i think you should've gotten out thors much earlier (i think your first one came at around 18 minutes). I mean it's not bad at all to skip thors considering he can just magic box, but it would force the zerg to be a bit more conservative with his mutas and might try for ultra or blords. Also with tanks, i think you were being too aggressive with them, and it would be a good idea to back them up against a wall or something so they won't be surrounded. Practice splitting your marines as well, and you can basically "magic box" with them too, making banelings/mutas a loot less effective. I think you could have done without the reapers and gone a 2rax bunker expand, because an operational bunker is a zerg's worst nightmare early game. But because you're going for drops, 2rax would have delayed that so it's your choice lol. But anyways, try throwing in some hellions with your drops, see how that turns out for you. I really like hellions, because they are such a good worker-killer, and they give you great map control with very little apm. They aren't the answer to a mass of lings however, so don't incorporate them into your main army. You want marine/tank, with hellions to run around. And take your time, siege up and build mazes with depots (tower defense for the win!), bunkers, and turrets, as long as you're keeping up with your small harassment, you'll be fine, you multi task well and you do a fairly good job with keeping up with your macro, just take your time
Thanks for the hellion suggestion.
I also really like hellion play (MLG!) but right now I'm trying to stick to this build and make it my bread and butter TvZ. But yes I think your right about mixing some bfh in my composition.
Good point about the tanks, I did not think about putting them next to walls - -; (how am I masters?).
Ty for the multi-task compliment ^-^
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about what u said about the hellions, he had baneling tech and if u go hellion marine u will lose vs massive benelings usage and if u got tank hellion marine mutas will do more damage than normal with some banelings. the thing with the thors is the armor, not the damage. thats just an extra so magic boxing isnt an answear vs thor marine. furthermore u kind of force his mutas to come in front. 3 armor will reduce the splash of mutas and they can tank some banelings i guess. i usually use the hellion build and its easier to use because hellions dont die so easily. try to cap hellions on 4 because i heard roaches dont take extra damage against them (cough). and for tangfish saying hellions arent mass ling killers, i totally disagree. more hellions behind ur army and not in front kill lings very fast. further more, dont take ur time. there is a timing at 9.30 where zerg is teching or expanding. this is the time where u should push. only build depots in front if u want to be supply capped (cough). Ur multitask is good ye but im pretty concerned about the worker build.
the thing about xnc is that the gold is almost free for terran. some tanks around it and its set. for blue flame to work with ur build u would have to cut on production and thats not what u want against aggressive zerg play. if u dont have enough u wont be able to pressure and vs mutas hellions dont do so well. if u want to get blue flame late game then u would have to add 1 more factory i think and 1 less rax.
@tangfigh below me, ur assuming he gives u time to kill the larva and he has no overlord spread. hellions dont do so well vs roaches and a good zerg should have roach tech ready as they do well vs marine early game (roach infestor is good combo even vs terran). and btw im not raging im just pointing things out. ur just assuming im raging because im telling him important things u missed or are wrong about. furthermore he did mma build and blue flame would have come pretty late with it. by that time he would have had enough mutas to force more marines turrets out which would delay them even more.
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@your rage: you could HSM his larvae and he wont be producing units for a whole 40 seconds! lol i wish pro players would start harassing larvae. Imagine that - while pushing, you attack their larvae (and drones with auto turret if you have excess energy). You accomplish three things, trade armies or kill their army, harass their economy, and stun them for more than 40 seconds because all their larvae are dead. Hmm...
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On August 03 2011 10:44 agahamsorr0w wrote:
about what u said about the hellions, he had baneling tech and if u go hellion marine u will lose vs massive benelings usage and if u got tank hellion marine mutas will do more damage than normal with some banelings. the thing with the thors is the armor, not the damage. thats just an extra so magic boxing isnt an answear vs thor marine. furthermore u kind of force his mutas to come in front. 3 armor will reduce the splash of mutas and they can tank some banelings i guess. i usually use the hellion build and its easier to use because hellions dont die so easily. try to cap hellions on 4 because i heard roaches dont take extra damage against them (cough). and for tangfish saying hellions arent mass ling killers, i totally disagree. more hellions behind ur army and not in front kill lings very fast. further more, dont take ur time. there is a timing at 9.30 where zerg is teching or expanding. this is the time where u should push. only build depots in front if u want to be supply capped (cough). Ur multitask is good ye but im pretty concerned about the worker build.
the thing about xnc is that the gold is almost free for terran. some tanks around it and its set. for blue flame to work with ur build u would have to cut on production and thats not what u want against aggressive zerg play. if u dont have enough u wont be able to pressure and vs mutas hellions dont do so well. if u want to get blue flame late game then u would have to add 1 more factory i think and 1 less rax.
i'm assuming he uses drops to buy him time, so you can have more...time. and of course at 9 minutes everyone pushes, but since this is a 23 minute game was it? It's okay then to start setting up a siege line. 9 minute timing is neither taking your time nor rushing, it's just standard. and you don't build supply depots wayy out front, just at the natural so after the 9 minute push, your tanks will have a safe place to hide. also slows ling run-bys
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On August 03 2011 10:54 TangFish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 10:44 agahamsorr0w wrote:
about what u said about the hellions, he had baneling tech and if u go hellion marine u will lose vs massive benelings usage and if u got tank hellion marine mutas will do more damage than normal with some banelings. the thing with the thors is the armor, not the damage. thats just an extra so magic boxing isnt an answear vs thor marine. furthermore u kind of force his mutas to come in front. 3 armor will reduce the splash of mutas and they can tank some banelings i guess. i usually use the hellion build and its easier to use because hellions dont die so easily. try to cap hellions on 4 because i heard roaches dont take extra damage against them (cough). and for tangfish saying hellions arent mass ling killers, i totally disagree. more hellions behind ur army and not in front kill lings very fast. further more, dont take ur time. there is a timing at 9.30 where zerg is teching or expanding. this is the time where u should push. only build depots in front if u want to be supply capped (cough). Ur multitask is good ye but im pretty concerned about the worker build.
the thing about xnc is that the gold is almost free for terran. some tanks around it and its set. for blue flame to work with ur build u would have to cut on production and thats not what u want against aggressive zerg play. if u dont have enough u wont be able to pressure and vs mutas hellions dont do so well. if u want to get blue flame late game then u would have to add 1 more factory i think and 1 less rax. i'm assuming he uses drops to buy him time, so you can have more...time. and of course at 9 minutes everyone pushes, but since this is a 23 minute game was it? It's okay then to start setting up a siege line. 9 minute timing is neither taking your time nor rushing, it's just standard. and you don't build supply depots wayy out front, just at the natural so after the 9 minute push, your tanks will have a safe place to hide. also slows ling run-bys
it being a 23 minute game isnt a good argument for the 9 minute timing push. i dont rlly get the comment. if u could explain a bit better it would be cool. furthermore, he went fast starport and tanks were 1. late 2. less than normal. plus, i didnt mean way out front i just meant in front of your natural. its good to constrict space at the left so he can only pass from right and in front of bunkers etc so i agree. but a depot line isnt the best way to use it as 1.roaches can hit them without the tanks there (late tanks due to early port) 2. they block your own units from hitting him(marines). ling runbys against zerg is to destroy buildings and workers. depots are the weakest buildings so i guess that would give him an advantage if he were to runby and counter. after mutas are out u cant drop. there is no way a drop can be effective. thats assuming his mutas are all the way to ur base and even then ur busy microing against the mutas.
have u watched the replay? just out of curiosity. if so did u just speed through it or just at normal speed? i watched it normal speed to check timings etc.
its true that drops buy time but time for what against mutas? u lose 400 minerals for time? thats not cost efficient and if zerg is passive anyways then u dont rlly need the time do u. if u drop vs mutas then zerg should be favored coz ur literally donating money to him. plus, i think u need the marines at home or in ur main attack coz mutas force u to spread out and if u spread out then he picks things off. thats why turrets dont work vs mass muta.
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Drops aren't meant to kill the zerg. They're meant to buy you time and ZONE him. If he has to be busy working on your drops (which may or may not do damage) then that's time he isn't in -your- face, leaving you freedom to macro, scout and counter him precisely.
So my advice is to spend less time on the drop focus itself. Literally just drop your units, a-move them, run away with the medivac, and go back to macroing. That's all you should do, don't waste your APM on micro.
The biggest failing of non-masters players is too much time spent on micro, not enough time spent on macro. Try playing games where you literally just a-move your army into your opponent, and devote all that APM into having perfect macro. You should shit on all of your opponents all the way up to diamond.
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On August 03 2011 11:22 Honeybadger wrote:
Drops aren't meant to kill the zerg. They're meant to buy you time and ZONE him. If he has to be busy working on your drops (which may or may not do damage) then that's time he isn't in -your- face, leaving you freedom to macro, scout and counter him precisely.
So my advice is to spend less time on the drop focus itself. Literally just drop your units, a-move them, run away with the medivac, and go back to macroing. That's all you should do, don't waste your APM on micro.
The biggest failing of non-masters players is too much time spent on micro, not enough time spent on macro. Try playing games where you literally just a-move your army into your opponent, and devote all that APM into having perfect macro. You should shit on all of your opponents all the way up to diamond.
he is actually masters. in the replay site it indicates its a master game and his macro is good enough for a master player.
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Your opening sucks. Waiting for 2 reapers does nothing but kill speedless lings, and is a loss of 100/100 when speedlings. A reaper opening involves early harass for scouting, something you didn't do with those reapers at all. Sure, you had map control, but you weren't exactly expanding twice or going for something risky. Get a fast reaper, run around in his base, get intel, get out. The 2nd reaper is practically useless in my opinion.
You had an econ going, you had a bunch of drops going, but you did absolutely nothing with your main army; by the time you moved out with your 8 tanks you had like 8 marines to go along with that. The first engagement was okay; neither side exactly won that. Everything else was definitely zerg favored.
Your drops would be better if you timed them together; most of the time they went in 1 by 1, with the exception of your first 2 or 3 drops. The latter were just free kills for him. Their deaths wouldn't have been meaningless if you had moved up with your main army while they were dropping, but you had no main army to use.
Versus mutalisk play, you need 3 standing armies: one large cluster of marine/tank/medivac, one small cluster of marine/medivac, and one even smaller drop force of marines and medivacs. You made the drop force way too large. Focus on getting the bigger force, then the drop force, then the secondary force.
Use the main force to secure a position. This makes it easier to coordinate attacks with the drop force.
Use the secondary force as reinforcements and defense. Keep them close enough to help the main force, but at the same time able to defend your base in case of a mutalisk backstab.
Use the drop force to distract your opponent while your main force can unseige and move up to an important or more favorable position.
This is the 11th strategem of Sun Tzu. Put your least strong vs his strongest force, your strongest force vs his less strong, and your less strong vs his least strong. You win 2 out of 3.
Eventually, you should end up with a very large army in a very good spot to kill the zerg. Your multitasking is there, but it needs precision timing in order for it to work at higher levels.
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I totally disagree with the comment that you can a-move an army forwards especially if it's tank marine vs muta ling baneling, or even roach bling muta. It's possible to do if there is a massive disparity in skill level between players but against people with a similar MMR you are asking for a quick death. :S
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EPT
