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Hi guys raging protoss here. Tried searching for threads on this and most seem to be outdated.
When playing z i try to open 3 gate sentry expand against them but they steal my gas before the standard 2nd assimilator timing (18 psi).
I want to know what goes through some of your guys minds when zerg lets the extractor finish because i am at a loss because of a few things.
1) If i want to expand do i get the sentry or a stalker to kill the extractor and then sentries?
2) I am tempted to 4gate when they do this which throws me off my game
3)Using the first zealot on the extractor gives zerg free reign over your base as lings can scout the entire damn thing
4) i can put a probe on it for a while but it doesnt even do the job until my stalker or sentry are out and by then my whole plan is thrown off and my macro slips
Please help!!
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Learn how to 1 gate expand as backup, or just 3 gate expand with less sentries by going forge before nexus.
If you really dont wana be thrown off of the sentry style, then throw down the second gas and cancel when you get the drone out or let it finish and mine from it later. It's only 75 minerals sunk.
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Whenever they do this get 1~2 stalkers instead of 1~2 sentries to kill the Extractor. Chrono out 1~2 Sentries then expand a tad later.
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9 pylon
14 gate
15 gaz
16 gaz
17 pylon
If you don't want that much gas, you just start mining on the second one a bit later. A lot of people, (pro players included) are doing this.
If he is gas stealing even before that, he is hurting his own play more then hurting you.
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Just make two zealots before sentries.
Or take your second gas before he steals it.
Or just turn it into a 1 gate expo, since he won't have any more scouting of you.
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On July 27 2011 09:29 Geiko wrote:
9 pylon
14 gate
15 gaz
16 gaz
17 pylon
If you don't want that much gas, you just start mining on the second one a bit later. A lot of people, (pro players included) are doing this.
If he is gas stealing even before that, he is hurting his own play more then hurting you.
I have seen HuK do this many times so it can't be too bad 
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I believe the typical response to a gas steal is to just expand with a forge with the excess gas to make up the lack of defense in having less sentries
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Thanks for the suggsetions guys i like the early 14/15 gas idea alot! Could that even turn into a DT expand with all that gas?
ON a side note just for healthy discussion, how do you hold a 1 gate expand versus a z with ling speed. Cant he just dance around in your natural canceling ur nexus?
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On July 27 2011 09:58 SurroundSound wrote:
Thanks for the suggsetions guys i like the early 14/15 gas idea alot! Could that even turn into a DT expand with all that gas?
ON a side note just for healthy discussion, how do you hold a 1 gate expand versus a z with ling speed. Cant he just dance around in your natural canceling ur nexus?
You just have to wall off completely. You will have 3-4 sentries which can easily handle small numbers of lings.
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On July 27 2011 09:39 Blarginator wrote:
Just make two zealots before sentries.
This is what I would do as well. Alternatively, maybe you can throw down an early forge and use fast cannons to shore up a less sentry intensive fe. I don't have as much experience with this so I can't guarantee that it's safe. However, it seems that even a small zealot sentry group can stall lings long enough for cannons to get up. Roaches.... well that's the part that makes me unsure :D
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Just because the Zerg stole a geyser doesn't have to hinder your 3 gate expo plan. After you wall off with a Zealot, you can start a Sentry, and that can start attacking the extractor as soon as it's done. Since you've got a surplus of minerals for not mining off of 2 Assimilators, it's possible to expand faster and create a wall off with Forges or Gateways.
Or you can do what was listed earlier with the 15/16 gas.
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Heres a solution, if the Zerg manages to go hatch first, or does not get gas before pool, you can safely 1gate expand (Huk Style). Just go gate, core, skip zealot, don't cut probes, throw down nexus and chrono WG tech as often as possible. Then chrono out 1 stalker and start kiting all of his lings. After stalker, constant sentry production should be manageable off the 1 gate as you throw down 2 more.
I recommend Stargate play or DT tech as a follow up because your army production will be low, and they are great deterrents vs Roach/ling aggression. Did I mention solid harassment options as well ? Hope this helps. As always a replay to demonstrate.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-223148.jpg)
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1 gate expanding would be a lot better. By stealing the gas he is giving up scouting abilities until he gets lings out. Without any more info he won't 2 base all in unless he is really bad
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As a zerg player, I didn't know that gas stealing had such an effect on you protoss. Thanks for the idea :D
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On July 27 2011 09:29 Geiko wrote:
9 pylon
14 gate
15 gaz
16 gaz
17 pylon
If you don't want that much gas, you just start mining on the second one a bit later. A lot of people, (pro players included) are doing this.
If he is gas stealing even before that, he is hurting his own play more then hurting you.
What does this kind of opening go into? just curious because i feel like if i used this to deter the gas steal i would macro up and have alot of gas left over
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On July 27 2011 11:09 SurroundSound wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 09:29 Geiko wrote:
9 pylon
14 gate
15 gaz
16 gaz
17 pylon
If you don't want that much gas, you just start mining on the second one a bit later. A lot of people, (pro players included) are doing this.
If he is gas stealing even before that, he is hurting his own play more then hurting you. What does this kind of opening go into? just curious because i feel like if i used this to deter the gas steal i would macro up and have alot of gas left over
Anything you want, making a geyser costs about 2 seconds and 75 minerals. You don't have to mine from it immediately.
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Just take the gas when you see the drone close to it or running towards it..
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On July 27 2011 09:29 Geiko wrote:
9 pylon
14 gate
15 gaz
16 gaz
17 pylon
If you don't want that much gas, you just start mining on the second one a bit later. A lot of people, (pro players included) are doing this.
If he is gas stealing even before that, he is hurting his own play more then hurting you.
I have my own fucked up version of this.
I will gas steal you around 15 supply, cancel spamming a few times (maybe 20-ish supply), then just throw a hatchery down in the middle of your base, which I'll most likely cancel right about the time you'd slam down 3 more gateways for a 4-gate.
Back home, I prefer to go 15 hatch, 14 pool, no gas until ~18 myself. Sending 4 lings to your nat as soon as the pool finishes, making 15 nexus somewhat risky.
This has the annoying situation of putting you between a rock and a hard place. You have a hatchery building in your base, if it gets to 1/2 hp without being attack, I'll put down a roach warren and just start pumping roaches in the middle of your base.
It's nice because it forces multiple non-typical responses out of Protoss and gives me damn near full vision of what he's doing between the overlord at the back, ling at the front, and hatch in the middle. The total cost of the drone and all the cancels is typically around 150 minerals. Well worth it IMO.
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You can always sub a stalker for a sentry and do a light zealot stalker harass with the sentry at home for defense/ gas destroying.
If anything its a small scout and can do some damage
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Ok I am just brainstorming here but cant you just make a assimilator when you see a drone scout enter your base I am a zerg and thats what most of toss I play do. Even if you put it up a bit earlier it doesnt mean you need to mine for it but atleast it wont be stealen from you plus you wont be need 2 zelots like some one suggested earlier. Well thats my opinion on what I see when I play vs a toss since my main race is Zerg.
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On July 27 2011 11:09 SurroundSound wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 09:29 Geiko wrote:
9 pylon
14 gate
15 gaz
16 gaz
17 pylon
If you don't want that much gas, you just start mining on the second one a bit later. A lot of people, (pro players included) are doing this.
If he is gas stealing even before that, he is hurting his own play more then hurting you. What does this kind of opening go into? just curious because i feel like if i used this to deter the gas steal i would macro up and have alot of gas left over
Goes into anything. As I've said, you don't have to harvest from the assimilator (although I do it anyways).
Frequent openings that can be done with this are :
-classic 3 gate sentry expand
-3 gate DT expand
-1 gate stargate expand
-sentry heavy 4/5 gate all in
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On July 27 2011 11:49 Jermstuddog wrote:
Back home, I prefer to go 15 hatch, 14 pool, no gas until ~18 myself. Sending 4 lings to your nat as soon as the pool finishes, making 15 nexus somewhat risky.
4 lings after a 15h/14p aint gonna do shit vs a 15 nex... :/
Also going gasless for that long leaves you pretty vulnerable to 1 gate pressure
edit: forgot to respond to op lol!
Usually when my gas is stolen there are several options that go through my mind:
a) 4 gate is the first thing that comes to mind and usually the last thing I will do. Most zergs will sniff out a 4 gate and your ass will get served
b) 1 gate expand is incredibly strong as long as you don't overcommit and know zerg's gas timings. If zerg went gas pool, be incredibly defensive and careful not to get overrun with lings if zerg scouts your early nexus and wants to be aggressive. If zerg went hatch first with a later gas or delayed gas at all, you can be very aggressive with 1 zeal 2 stalkers or 3 zeals or whatever. Go up to his creep, kill some lings, force more lings, then leave. During the little poke you should be getting a couple more gates up and a forge/cannon and continually make sentries out of your 1 gate after the 2nd stalker or 3rd unit. If you lose the initial units in your little poke, be careful and sim city the shit out of your nat/walloff if you can or else you're dead since you have maybe 2 sentries a cannon and wg within a couple chrono's of finishing
c) 1 gate expand with voidray followup is strong but you'll need to hack away at the stolen geyser and take it asaply. Play defensively but drop a stargate off 1 gate and after your nexus. Chrono out a vr so you don't die to a roach/ling attack or roach allin. If zerg is droning try to snipe third with vrs or play standard stargate
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whenever I see a drone coming to the gas geyser, I just immediately take my own gas, it's not worth having to deal with the extractor.
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You can make your assim a bit earlier if the drone goes by your second gas.. no big deal.
If that doesn't work, i'd assume you could just expand faster because you will be mineral heavy. Then again, my follow up is just a 4gate <_< (really need to stop that)
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On July 27 2011 11:49 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 09:29 Geiko wrote:
9 pylon
14 gate
15 gaz
16 gaz
17 pylon
If you don't want that much gas, you just start mining on the second one a bit later. A lot of people, (pro players included) are doing this.
If he is gas stealing even before that, he is hurting his own play more then hurting you. I have my own fucked up version of this. I will gas steal you around 15 supply, cancel spamming a few times (maybe 20-ish supply), then just throw a hatchery down in the middle of your base, which I'll most likely cancel right about the time you'd slam down 3 more gateways for a 4-gate. Back home, I prefer to go 15 hatch, 14 pool, no gas until ~18 myself. Sending 4 lings to your nat as soon as the pool finishes, making 15 nexus somewhat risky. This has the annoying situation of putting you between a rock and a hard place. You have a hatchery building in your base, if it gets to 1/2 hp without being attack, I'll put down a roach warren and just start pumping roaches in the middle of your base. It's nice because it forces multiple non-typical responses out of Protoss and gives me damn near full vision of what he's doing between the overlord at the back, ling at the front, and hatch in the middle. The total cost of the drone and all the cancels is typically around 150 minerals. Well worth it IMO.
I don't think this is worth it at all. The direct cost is 150 minerals, but there are other costs as well including your delayed hatchery by 300 minerals. May I ask what league you are in?
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You can:
-Still 3-gate expand with less sentries and just make an additional cannon if you sense aggression.
-1-gate expand
-Quickly grab gas if you see the drone beelining toward your gas
-4-gate
You can even do like a fake expand into 4-gate or something. It's not really that big of a deal. Sounds like you just let things bother you if you build order is messed up in the slightest, which is essentially the major advantage of a gas steal intends to do.
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4 gate would be good since you have less gas. But if they are on two base and have spines up it would fail so I would go with some kind of fast expand or just try to get a stalker after the zealot instead of a sentry to kill the extractor.
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Getting your second gas a little bit sooner just as a standard may be good for you if this throws you off that much.
I have a curiosity. If a zealot kills it faster than a stalker, then would it be terrible to get a stalker out as a 2nd unit and us it to block at your wall while the zealot takes care of the stolen gas? Then you can chrono out 2 sentries or so and expand.
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On July 28 2011 03:29 SoKHo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 11:49 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 27 2011 09:29 Geiko wrote:
9 pylon
14 gate
15 gaz
16 gaz
17 pylon
If you don't want that much gas, you just start mining on the second one a bit later. A lot of people, (pro players included) are doing this.
If he is gas stealing even before that, he is hurting his own play more then hurting you. I have my own fucked up version of this. I will gas steal you around 15 supply, cancel spamming a few times (maybe 20-ish supply), then just throw a hatchery down in the middle of your base, which I'll most likely cancel right about the time you'd slam down 3 more gateways for a 4-gate. Back home, I prefer to go 15 hatch, 14 pool, no gas until ~18 myself. Sending 4 lings to your nat as soon as the pool finishes, making 15 nexus somewhat risky. This has the annoying situation of putting you between a rock and a hard place. You have a hatchery building in your base, if it gets to 1/2 hp without being attack, I'll put down a roach warren and just start pumping roaches in the middle of your base. It's nice because it forces multiple non-typical responses out of Protoss and gives me damn near full vision of what he's doing between the overlord at the back, ling at the front, and hatch in the middle. The total cost of the drone and all the cancels is typically around 150 minerals. Well worth it IMO. I don't think this is worth it at all. The direct cost is 150 minerals, but there are other costs as well including your delayed hatchery by 300 minerals. May I ask what league you are in?
He's around high masters (I played him before and I know who this guy is).
VTJerm
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On July 27 2011 11:49 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 09:29 Geiko wrote:
9 pylon
14 gate
15 gaz
16 gaz
17 pylon
If you don't want that much gas, you just start mining on the second one a bit later. A lot of people, (pro players included) are doing this.
If he is gas stealing even before that, he is hurting his own play more then hurting you. I have my own fucked up version of this. I will gas steal you around 15 supply, cancel spamming a few times (maybe 20-ish supply), then just throw a hatchery down in the middle of your base, which I'll most likely cancel right about the time you'd slam down 3 more gateways for a 4-gate. Back home, I prefer to go 15 hatch, 14 pool, no gas until ~18 myself. Sending 4 lings to your nat as soon as the pool finishes, making 15 nexus somewhat risky. This has the annoying situation of putting you between a rock and a hard place. You have a hatchery building in your base, if it gets to 1/2 hp without being attack, I'll put down a roach warren and just start pumping roaches in the middle of your base. It's nice because it forces multiple non-typical responses out of Protoss and gives me damn near full vision of what he's doing between the overlord at the back, ling at the front, and hatch in the middle. The total cost of the drone and all the cancels is typically around 150 minerals. Well worth it IMO.
That's a nice idea that I may steal and test sir .
One question however : is it working on 4-players map? If so, you are scouting at nine aren't you?
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It's RevJerm, not VT. And my play-time is sporatic so I vary a lot. I finished season 2 around 1600 Masters but when I have the time, I can compete with top 100 GMs.
As far as the nuances of my retarded opener, my hatchery doesn't get delayed at all, thats actually the first thing I put down. Because I skip gas until ~18 supply, nothing really gets delayed except for ling speed and the 2nd queen.
I scout with my 10th drone every ZvP and ZvT. This mostly has to due with the fact that I need to know whats going on if I am skipping gas. Most builds don't actually require gas, not even 2-gate pressure, but knowing what you're doing gives me the option of throwing down gas if I want. This part is irrelevant of putting down an in-base hatch or not.
The hatchery came as a next step from delaying my gas so long. I found that I was floating minerals around 18 supply and no larva to spend that money on. If I just hold off on my 2nd queen and overlord for a few seconds, I can turn my scouting drone into a hatchery, and I'll eventually get 225 of that back while simultaneously giving myself the option of going for an in-base roach rush if my opponent decides to apply pressure to me instead of cleaning up the retardo-hatch in his base.
Bonus points were applied when I realized that I can place my hatchery in a location that lets me see whether or not he's chrono-boosting his cybernetics core or not, even if he puts it in an odd corner of his base and more-often-than-not the drone gets to scout his whole base before the 1 stalker can chase it down after I cancel the hatch. The 4 lings at the front are mostly there to make sure P doesn't pull his Zealot to help kill the hatch faster. I want that thing to cancel at the latest moment possible so that I can see damning evidence if he's going for an early 4-gate or stargate, finding that I can fuck with a FE was mostly a bonus.
There are definitely 100 ways to do it wrong, and I pick stupid moves every now and then, but when done right, it feels like theres just no good move that Protoss can make.
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EPT
