Take notes guys. High Masters/GM (kicked out for inactivity) player and I have gone 15-0 with this build (Only works on maps with ramps that could be blocked off by a single forcefield):
Opens just like the 3gate expo build which will greatly confuse your opponent. 9 pylon 12 gateway 14 gas 16 pylon 17 core (obviously research warp-gate tech immediately after completion) 18 zealot to Complete wall-off 21 gas 25 pylon 25 gate/gate
Make a sentry then add your robo and another gateway and from here on out just keep making sentries with the excess Gas you will have as the cost of warp prisms Only depletes minerals.
When you have 2 sentries and your zealot out, make a pylon outside of your base partially blocking off the ramp to trick your opponent into thinking you're just 3gate expoing. At the same time spam chronoboost on the building of 2 warp prisms and load up all the sentries you have made in the time being (should be around 6). Block off your walloff with a pylon just in case the zerg player decides to counterattack you while you completely stomp his base.
Here is the most important part of the strategy which will probably deviate lower level players from higher level players.
Obviously some positions work better than others as you may not have to pass xel-naga towers controlled by your opponent, but this build is so commanding that it should not result in your defeat.
Anyways, as your two warp prisms approach the zerg base, there are several things you can do depending on how the zerg reacts: 1.) If all of his units (or spine crawlers) are at the natural, drop a quick sentry outside of the main, forcefield the ramp, and then deploy all of your units inside. 2.) If all of his units are inside the main, then vice versa you forcefield the ramp and deploy your units outside of his main. 3.) If for some reason your opponent knows to split up his army, forcefield the ramp and deploy your army outside of the natural and then attack normally with everything grouped together (you do not want to just drop your units one by one).
In all 3 options make sure to KEEP THE RAMPS FORCEFIELDED. Forcefields last 15 seconds so count the in-game timer if needed to maximize efficiency. Even if you get rather antsy and drop your forcefields every 8 seconds, 6 sentries with full energy will be able to hold the ramp indefinitely. After your army is on the field, reinforce it by phasing your prisms and then abuse the power of your 4 warpgates (Remember to chronoboost them).
Note that if you attack the natural first, after clearing everything, go right for the main just in case your opponent is researching burrow tech but do not forget positioning when ascending the ramp! Don't forget to reposition your warp prisms.
This strategy is insanely powerful as zerg has almost no means of anti-air early game besides the queen and the seldomly used spore crawler. Oh and if for some reason you don't win, just throw down a robotics bay and get colossus to kill all of the zerglings or just expo.
interesting. seems fairly powerful and deadly, but also gimmicky and pretty all-in, as 4 gates tend to be. i'll first give this a try on the PTR where my ranking doesn't matter
This looks interesting, but is an extreme investment in gas in terms of sentries. If a warp prism gets picked off or even if they just split their army, you could be at a clear disadvantage.
thats just another tricky all in that will fail badly when you know how to deal with it. Any competent zerg will start pumping units if he does not see an expansion going down at 6 min mark and if he splits his army he will demolish your attack without a problem which basically means the game is over for you.
This is definitely one of those builds that will force every single Zerg player out there to adapt their style just a tad in order to deal with this if it happens to hit them. I love that aspect of this. Little things like this are what help the game evolve. Very, very impressive. Good use of Sentries and Warp Prisms.
On July 15 2011 07:48 syriuszonito wrote: thats just another tricky all in that will fail badly when you know how to deal with it. Any competent zerg will start pumping units if he does not see an expansion going down at 6 min mark and if he splits his army he will demolish your attack without a problem which basically means the game is over for you.
As the op stated and shown in replays, they build works at high master level, don't pull this "any competent zerg will demolish you crap". Of course if a strategy is scouted you can prepare for it. If you are not going to contribute, don't post. Do you really enjoy dismissing someone's good work like that? Think about how you feel when people to that to you.
was used in beta against terran fast expansions quiet successful, though that attack looks quiet interesting as well. Getting the prism is standard for me in pvz, as mutas are so unpopular now, can always pick up something that is in danger of getting killed and before that it grants nice amounts of drone kills. And you could just use one prism, and do the cliff shuttle trick (works on most maps). Splitting army won't work if you defend with lings only, (popular by most zerg and a great mistake if they have to attack the zealots near walls). Prism only delays your expansion by a tiny bit, most of the time it will grant you a nice eco advantage with harassment. But you will probably end up having to defend against alot of zerg stuff, the usual reaction if a zerg has lots of army and lost workers. And zergs are generally in a bad position if they let you forcefield the ramp and there is a shuttle out as well. No real need to get 2 prisms really one is enough as you can shuttle your army over quiet instantly with one prism
edit: lil thing i always did was get a spine in the main as well, though warp prims play was quiet rare and it just moved to the 3rd once enough army was out hehe.
On July 15 2011 07:52 Synystyr wrote: This is definitely one of those builds that will force every single Zerg player out there to adapt their style just a tad in order to deal with this if it happens to hit them. I love that aspect of this. Little things like this are what help the game evolve. Very, very impressive. Good use of Sentries and Warp Prisms.
Hats off!
I hope stuff like this finally gets Blizzard to address the force field and Zergs utter lack of anything to deal with it.
Until then, I have been going to a standard hydraling composition to help me secure my 3rd in ZvP fairly regularly lately, it can handle this quite well.
Against anybody who isn't blindly making those types of units and waiting around though, this should prove highly effective.
On July 15 2011 07:48 syriuszonito wrote: thats just another tricky all in that will fail badly when you know how to deal with it. Any competent zerg will start pumping units if he does not see an expansion going down at 6 min mark and if he splits his army he will demolish your attack without a problem which basically means the game is over for you.
If you have really good control, you can drop a sentry or two near the ramp, get a forcefield out, and then pick them up in the prisms again. Then you can drop your guys / warp in in a bundle in a safer nearby area and then keep the forcefield on the ramp. If you have to go too far away to get your army on the ground, keep one sentry in a prism to go back and put down a 2nd forcefield while you deploy the main army and attack the natural (or main I suppose if that's how it went down).
I'm not saying this is unbeatable with good control, I just think you can make life for the zerg real hell if you are gosu with drop / sentry control.
Pro tip: you can engage warp mode, then d-click your prism to have it drop guys while you're using it to warp in!
I've been waiting for this sort of attack to get popular because forcefield on the ramp is mega-powerful and is barely used to its full potential.
I like this strategy, but this could easily go into a base trade scenario if the Zerg got his speedlings at his natural and chooses to go for a counterattack. So to be extra safe, i think warping in a sentry in your main by the time you go for the attack would be a good decision.
Nice strategy, I'll give it a try. Can't really say much more before I try it. Wouldn't it be more effective to attack from the front to draw all the units out, then FF the ramp, load up all your sentries and go in the main ?
@w3jjjj You quote my post but it seems you didnt take time to read it. I did not say any good zerg will demolish his crap. I said that once you know how to defend it, the build fails and puts you in a very bad situation which is why i wouldnt call this build a revolutionary pvz. Thats a tricky all in that can win you some games on ladder but once ppl learn their lesson its gonna be useless. I'd say my post brings more to the discussion than your "Excellent guide btw. Looks pretty scary".
Watched all 3 replays and this is indeed a potent PvZ build! Wouldn't want to rely on this as your "solid" build because going in with 2 warpprisms is quite a risk ( Like in the first replay, if the queens were a little bit better targeted you would have lost a warp prism + 4 sentries in it ). But in a boX situation this could be a killer!
The general strategy has been around forever, although the version demonstrated by some Korean pros is much faster and only uses one warp prism. There are some good replays of top pros doing it but you'd have to dig around a bit in order to find them.
On July 15 2011 07:48 syriuszonito wrote: thats just another tricky all in that will fail badly when you know how to deal with it. Any competent zerg will start pumping units if he does not see an expansion going down at 6 min mark and if he splits his army he will demolish your attack without a problem which basically means the game is over for you.
You dismissed his build's validity, while claiming that his victories with the build are against incompetent zerg opponents, these are your original words.
In my post i said of course if people scouts it they can prepare, exact words here.
On July 15 2011 08:03 w3jjjj wrote: As the op stated and shown in replays, they build works at high master level, don't pull this "any competent zerg will demolish you crap". Of course if a strategy is scouted you can prepare for it. If you are not going to contribute, don't post. Do you really enjoy dismissing someone's good work like that? Think about how you feel when people to that to you..
On July 15 2011 08:27 syriuszonito wrote: @w3jjjj You quote my post but it seems you didnt take time to read it. I did not say any good zerg will demolish his crap. I said that once you know how to defend it, the build fails and puts you in a very bad situation which is why i wouldnt call this build a revolutionary pvz. Thats a tricky all in that can win you some games on ladder but once ppl learn their lesson its gonna be useless. I'd say my post brings more to the discussion than your "Excellent guide btw. Looks pretty scary".
So you posted a hurtful comment, instead of apologizing, you are re-phrasing yourself to sound nicer? Just read out loud the bolded words from your first post and your second one. If your first post was mannered like the second one, I wouldn't have picked on you.
4 gate timing attacks are all-in by nature, this build is a variation of the 4 gate so of course if the attack fails protoss will be behind. What are you bringing to the discussion? I acknowledge the good work that the op put in, and that somehow is worse than you dissing his work?
One question to the OP: What do you do when your cover has been blown? It's not uncommon to see a sacrificial overlord at 6:15 mark, especially if you go stalker before sentry.
I think if you delay the lair and don't go past 35 drones, you should be able to get enough roaches and lings out in time to stop this and you may even finish +1 melee.
Also if you have 3 queens out you can try to camp around the ramp to prevent the prisms from deploying while focusing one down.
Excellent post, excellent build! I watched the 3 replays, and I've been extremely impressed.
I tried a few customs to check the timings, and the warp prism leave your base at around 7:40. I like how you switch between zealot/sentry if you face only zerglings and stalker if you face roach.
Well, it's of course much more powerful if you manage to be in his nat while his army is trapped in his main. No counterattack possible.
And I tend to disagree with people stating if the zerg splits his army then the push fails. A 4 gate, even late, against only one half of a zerg army clearly wins. And it is simply sooo easy to force field the ramp if the zerg begins to put too much units on one side of the ramp.
I guess it's the queen usage (and army splitting) that counters the build, but I still have to see it. OP, do you have a replay of the protoss having to retreat?
When I read "revolutionary" I was expecting some sick midgame/lategame warpprism plays but instead it's a 1 base all-in... I'm dissapoint. Still it's a solid strategy which looks really scary to hold. Great guide but the title is a bit bombastic for a 1 base all-in.
Pretty soon, Toss will have as many all in options as Terran. =o
I'm gonna check the reps between IEM/IPL, but this looks extremely interesting to me. Ty for the contribution, as it's always a plus to see Warp Prisms used.
On July 15 2011 09:00 Marsupian wrote: When I read "revolutionary" I was expecting some sick midgame/lategame warpprism plays but instead it's a 1 base all-in... I'm dissapoint. Still it's a solid strategy which looks really scary to hold. Great guide but the title is a bit bombastic for a 1 base all-in.
Agreed, I actually faced some good master protoss players who constantly harassed me in mid game with ht drops with phase prism, not that hard to defend, but really caught me off guard first time I faced that play style. I was actually expecting that when I first read the title lol. That kind of play style changes bringing back the harass macro style from bw would be revolutionary indeed if it proofs to work at top level. Still this is a nice guide.
I really like this build. It's similar to the one KiWiKaKi used against IdrA a long time ago, yet this one looks even better. Is there also a possibility to use this against the other races? I don't think it would work well against Protoss, as they can warp-in inside their main, but using this strategy against Terran seems almost as reasonable as against Zerg. Good job, and if it is truly a well-made build, people like White-Ra should start using it .
On July 15 2011 08:10 Lobotomist wrote: Jesus that's cheesy. What would be the best zerg response to this, split units?
just speculating here, but I'm guessing spines in main/exp would do ok. It's kind of impossible to really know this is coming if it's just a ladder game though, but if you knew your opponent was doing this that'd be the answer.
It would be interesting to see how many units you get out without getting the robo and double prism. If you can get double the amount of units if you don't get warpprisms than splitting your units makes this push easier to hold than a normal attack (if you don't split this is still better). If splitting your units is a viable response this build is just a gimmick that kills players who don't know how to respond. If half your units is not enough to hold this off than it's actually a strong push you have to scout and react to.
Also is it viable to kill the prisms with your queen if you see it coming?
Generally, against protoss staying on 1 base I get pretty suspicious that they'll be going DTs or Void Rays, so I'll get spores. If you see a warp prism, you could definitely put spores by your ramp to keep the warp prisms away. You'd have to have the spores already though, scout timing would be critical.
Just curious if this works against spanishiwas where they have several queens to take down the warp prisms? (taking out sentries/preventing reinforcements?)
Really hoping this doesn't catch on or I'm going to be shedding a lot of tears in my ZvPs. Looks like I'll have to start splitting units to catch drops in ZvP
Wow this is insanely powerful! Even with powerful responses, i still doubt myself, or any zerg can hold this off without losing too much! Awesome build man! EDIT: Gonna tell David Kim, i know what i want for Patch 1.4
On July 15 2011 08:51 Keilah wrote: why 2 warp prisms instead of 1? so you can drop your sentry/warp in on either side of the ramp at any given moment instead of waiting to fly around?
so that you can continue to make untis while you make the prisms and carry all the units you'll have rather than having to avoid using warpgates until you arrive at his base
This reminds me of a strategy oGsHero used against oGsTheStC in the FXOpen Invitational Series #1 finals. It was a PvT though, and only one Warp prism was used:
Ive tried something like this before (admittedly low masters and not where you are) but could never have success. If the Zerg leaves 10-15 lings (perhaps less) in his main, isn't the attack effectively shut down, using the rest of the lings how you normally would to defend a four warp gate?
This strategy has been around, only it was with blink stalkers and 1 sentry 1 warp prism and warp in more sentries if needed. So not really revolutionary.
So, after a failed attempt on the ladder, 10+ custom games against the AI to perfect the timings and 5 custom games on xel naga cavern, the results are : - You can have both warp prism at 7:30. There's one replay where the OP has the prisms at 7:20, but this was because he made only sentries (and no stalker at the beginning, when you're tight on minerals) - Generally extremely potent - But dies terribly fast if the zerg (who has total map control and sees the warp prism the moment they leave your base) brings his queen at the choke. Spanishiwa style, 4 queens, you're dead. Even with 0 units, you lose your warp prism too fast - And of course, perma FF is totally imba early game
Trivia : it does not really work against very hard AI because... it goes 1 base hydra >< And, if you want to bait him out, well, sometimes, the timing is right, and you are in his base 10 seconds before the hydra pop. But if you're 10 seconds too late, it's a catastrophe. Well, it was good practice to perma FF during 5 minutes in his natural =)
Re-trivia : I thought it was a cheese, but it's more an allin. Walling the main makes it extremely difficult to expand while attacking. Well, to be honest, if you kill his natural, and he still has a scary army in his main, you're on "equal-1-base" footing
On July 16 2011 05:52 fezvez wrote: So, after a failed attempt on the ladder, 10+ custom games against the AI to perfect the timings and 5 custom games on xel naga cavern, the results are : - You can have both warp prism at 7:30. There's one replay where the OP has the prisms at 7:20, but this was because he made only sentries (and no stalker at the beginning, when you're tight on minerals) - Generally extremely potent - But dies terribly fast if the zerg (who has total map control and sees the warp prism the moment they leave your base) brings his queen at the choke. Spanishiwa style, 4 queens, you're dead. Even with 0 units, you lose your warp prism too fast - And of course, perma FF is totally imba early game
well yeah, i mean the idea is to look like a sentry expand, and to save minerals for the robo & prisms. Why would you build a stalker?
Yknow what I want to see some day, is a protoss scouting that there are many queens, rushing out some HTs, and going feedback -> archon ftw.
On July 16 2011 05:52 fezvez wrote: So, after a failed attempt on the ladder, 10+ custom games against the AI to perfect the timings and 5 custom games on xel naga cavern, the results are : - You can have both warp prism at 7:30. There's one replay where the OP has the prisms at 7:20, but this was because he made only sentries (and no stalker at the beginning, when you're tight on minerals) - Generally extremely potent - But dies terribly fast if the zerg (who has total map control and sees the warp prism the moment they leave your base) brings his queen at the choke. Spanishiwa style, 4 queens, you're dead. Even with 0 units, you lose your warp prism too fast - And of course, perma FF is totally imba early game
well yeah, i mean the idea is to look like a sentry expand, and to save minerals for the robo & prisms. Why would you build a stalker?
Timing problem =)
Zealot at 18/20. Second assimilator at 20 or 21. Then, when the core finishes, you don't have 150 gaz. I find myself having barely 100 most of the time. And sometimes, it's too risky (if you see 14/14 for example) to wait for the 50 gaz to be mined. (because of the infamous "drone goes through units")
Another reason is when you scout roach. (AI specific, no one 1-base roach anymore... at least that's what I encountered)
On July 16 2011 05:52 fezvez wrote: So, after a failed attempt on the ladder, 10+ custom games against the AI to perfect the timings and 5 custom games on xel naga cavern, the results are : - You can have both warp prism at 7:30. There's one replay where the OP has the prisms at 7:20, but this was because he made only sentries (and no stalker at the beginning, when you're tight on minerals) - Generally extremely potent - But dies terribly fast if the zerg (who has total map control and sees the warp prism the moment they leave your base) brings his queen at the choke. Spanishiwa style, 4 queens, you're dead. Even with 0 units, you lose your warp prism too fast - And of course, perma FF is totally imba early game
well yeah, i mean the idea is to look like a sentry expand, and to save minerals for the robo & prisms. Why would you build a stalker?
Yknow what I want to see some day, is a protoss scouting that there are many queens, rushing out some HTs, and going feedback -> archon ftw.
How do you "rush out" high templar? 1 base high templar most certainly = GG. and 2 base takes too long, by that point zerg isnt relying on queens.
On July 16 2011 06:08 Retgery wrote: So is this an all in? If not what's the follow up if you don't kill him out right?
It's gotta be an all in. You hit at 8 mins while still on one base? The follow up is probably "proceeding to lose your whole fucking base" (Day9) then GGing
There's no way to do enough damage to the Zerg to put you on par with him that doesn't kill him. either he can still make units and you're broke or he can't make units and you kill all his workers.
I wonder if this build would have trouble with some roaches, I tend to go Roach in ZvP and if sentries are close to wall to prevent surround roaches on high or low ground could get shots off. Idk I like the warp prism play though I feel like it has so much potential along with nydus for some really cool play.
On July 15 2011 07:52 Synystyr wrote: This is definitely one of those builds that will force every single Zerg player out there to adapt their style just a tad in order to deal with this if it happens to hit them. I love that aspect of this. Little things like this are what help the game evolve. Very, very impressive. Good use of Sentries and Warp Prisms.
Hats off!
Agreed, this tactic can work against any race to be honest, as long as your sneaky enough with the warp prisms. I can imagine it being quite effective against a terran who does a 1 rax expand, as long as you sneakily enter his main. I think getting people to change their styles and adapt to tricks like this will make the game better. I also like how it isn't unfair, its just abusing the fact the most people leave their army's very grouped up in front of their natural, when they don't need to. If you have map control and you can see an attack coming, it's better to have forces spread out to defend against drops anyways.
On July 15 2011 07:52 Synystyr wrote: This is definitely one of those builds that will force every single Zerg player out there to adapt their style just a tad in order to deal with this if it happens to hit them. I love that aspect of this. Little things like this are what help the game evolve. Very, very impressive. Good use of Sentries and Warp Prisms.
Hats off!
Agreed, this tactic can work against any race to be honest, as long as your sneaky enough with the warp prisms. I can imagine it being quite effective against a terran who does a 1 rax expand, as long as you sneakily enter his main. I think getting people to change their styles and adapt to tricks like this will make the game better. I also like how it isn't unfair, its just abusing the fact the most people leave their army's very grouped up in front of their natural, when they don't need to. If you have map control and you can see an attack coming, it's better to have forces spread out to defend against drops anyways.
Agreed. If you tried this against someone like HuK (prob not viable in PvP, but as a player example), he keeps his stalkers in his mineral line/edges of his base and his zealot/sentry at his front, and would totally shut it down. This can force people to start playing that way too.
Honestly, this has been around. If not the exact build order, then the idea of it. It more revolves around the idea of "FF on ramp is amazing" more than "4 gate + Warp Prism is amazing".
Its all bout scouting. If u dont see an expansion, at seven minutes mark, u can make like 5-6 Spines on the natural, go roaches and put a big part of our army on the main, and a few roaches on the natural.
Its good to point that if u see 2/3 sentries when the protoss put the pylon on the natural, you can be sure the protoss cant make Stargate play or dt. So, isnt that hard to scout IMO.
I think its a good strategy, but i dont like allins. (:
On July 16 2011 06:08 Retgery wrote: So is this an all in? If not what's the follow up if you don't kill him out right?
It's gotta be an all in. You hit at 8 mins while still on one base? The follow up is probably "proceeding to lose your whole fucking base" (Day9) then GGing
There's no way to do enough damage to the Zerg to put you on par with him that doesn't kill him. either he can still make units and you're broke or he can't make units and you kill all his workers.
Well, if things go well, you manage to destroy his natural, but he's got a fully saturated main and an inbase hatch with lots of hydralisk... and you are on equal food count.
Usually, it's still still a huge lead for protoss, but if you lost too many units while destroying his natural, nydus worms may be lethal (hydra still roflstomp gateway units)
On July 15 2011 07:52 Synystyr wrote: This is definitely one of those builds that will force every single Zerg player out there to adapt their style just a tad in order to deal with this if it happens to hit them. I love that aspect of this. Little things like this are what help the game evolve. Very, very impressive. Good use of Sentries and Warp Prisms.
Hats off!
Agreed, this tactic can work against any race to be honest, as long as your sneaky enough with the warp prisms. I can imagine it being quite effective against a terran who does a 1 rax expand, as long as you sneakily enter his main. I think getting people to change their styles and adapt to tricks like this will make the game better. I also like how it isn't unfair, its just abusing the fact the most people leave their army's very grouped up in front of their natural, when they don't need to. If you have map control and you can see an attack coming, it's better to have forces spread out to defend against drops anyways.
There's a small problem for Terran and Protoss : AA.
In both cases, as you give up complete map control (your timing hits after concussive shells for terran) he knows you are going to drop with warp prisms. Terran will kill you outright with marines. For protoss, well, it's the same problem, stalkers destroy warp prisms too quickly. The reason it works so well against Zerg is the lack of AA in the first 8 minutes.
I saw this strategy done in a VOD a LONG time ago... but I forgot about it. I'm surprised we haven't seen to many plays similar to this. Unfortunately, I think if this strategy gets too popular it could get metagamed pretty hard.
for zergs wondering how to counter this. Just take both your queens and start focus firing the warp prisms. He'll only be able to do the cliff jumping once, MAYBE twice before his prisms are gone. He shouldn't have a pylon anywhere on the map and if he actually turns on the warp prism then the queens will definitely kill em. Just be smart and know that that's why he has the warp prisms so leaving a third of your army on the high ground can prevent these type of things. The second you see the warp prisms you want to start attacking them with your queens right away.
Nice strat. However this guy ^ is right. In third game your opponent killed one warp prism and second barely survived + if he had his lings splitted you wouldn`t be able to do anything. Even though it may work as a cheese sometimes I dont think it will be so revolutionary in PvZ.
Another abusive 1-base build that I don't care to use. Blizz really didn't think through the implication of all the abusive tactics with FF's and small ramps.....................
I think that this isn't a bad thing, but can only be truly effective with brilliant micro (like you channel your inner Moon and pretend the warp prisms are zeppelins).
If you can lift every unit in time to prevent it from taking shield damage, then lift it back up, and maybe follow with a third prism that you can use to warp in at his main's mineral line, it can be great.
Also, would you be able to incorporate a nexus cancel into this build? i think that would help.
I also think that it would be hard to scout, who expects warp prisms when they see a robotics facility?
So yeah EGAxlav just did something similar to Thorzain in the IPL only off 2 base and with more gateways. I liked his build a lot better as it is not all-in but just very strong. Looks a bit weak to early aggression tho.
Edit: Protosses in general just suddenly started using warpprisms. First in the GSTL now in the IPL and I think I also saw Minigun do this in a showmatch. Was about time really (also those prisms are insanely fast with the speed upgrade).
After trying this out on ladder I really do not like it. The travel time in the warp prism results in so much unused production time. Also it is very hard to avoid being scouted on your way there without adding ridiculous travel time or the zerg may simply scout you before leaving which allows for zerg to position a queen, since zergs tend to have creep spread to their ramp by then, this poses an issue since warp prisms are so fragile. Also, unless you can drop a sentry and trap their whole army with that FF, any spare lings or lings just finishing production can tear apart your sentrys before you can get your first warp in from the prisms, either that or you will have to expend a ton of energy on FFs.
Overall this all in strategy seems very situational and maybe I have just done a terrible job of executing it but you really need the zerg to do certain things with their army in order to make it work. I much prefer a simple 4 or 5 gate that doesn't rely so much on a gimmick.
Seems like, as in all drops, its just a matter of spotting them and putting lings under them (on both sides of the cliff they're dropping on. I can see how this will work, though, if the zerg doesn't spot it until it's too late or doesnt split properly.
It's funny how a lot of people in the strategy forum look at a build post and say X and Y counters it easily and consequently it will never work. Just want to point out that ALL BUILDS HAVE COUNTERS IN SOME SHAPE OR FORMS as you all know.
With that being said, I like how ''Thinking outside of the box'' this build is. It works really good for me on the ladder for the few times I've done it. Thanks to Kookiez for sharing this original strategy with us!
Spores near at the ramp would likely shut this down which should also be used vs air and DT rushes so zerg should be getting them if they can't scout whats going on.
Seems really neat, and like others have said, it's going to make zergs play differently against toss from now on, even toss who aren't using this build. The fear that it COULD happen will force some time of army splitting which will open up new areas. From a gold terran player who knows nothing, kudos sir
How are you gonna stop an overlord from scouting this with the low sentry DPS? This build can work only once against an opponent. It is a 1base all in. It is very important to have a few of those up your sleeve. But I think this one is scouted too easily and warp prisms are too fragile . By the way, can you tell us how you spend your early CB?
this used to be really strong on LT/ST close air spawn. kiwikaki would use VR to clean out overlords and force antiair then sneak the sentry warp prism in before the zerg knew what was going on.
The most i would commit to stopping this is a single spore crawler above the ramp in my main. This is a bad all in imo, a good allin uses strong timings and the optimum use of resources. This does neither, this is simply terrain abuse.
On August 14 2011 02:07 Silent331 wrote: The most i would commit to stopping this is a single spore crawler above the ramp in my main. This is a bad all in imo, a good allin uses strong timings and the optimum use of resources. This does neither, this is simply terrain abuse.
Mad zerg player calling protoss allin names. Thats about as fair and balanced as fox news.
@OP It's a great build order to bust out for BOX matches, I also like it for close positions on shattered and abyssal caverns in general. Lots of fun to mix in when laddering :D
Stopping this is just like preparing for a 5gate but much easier. There are two likely scenarios the Zerg could do:
1) depending on map, make units for roach/ling pressure, meaning you will have more than enough units to split and stop the drops.
2) don't make units right away but get some spines at the natural (most builds incorporate the spines to not die to cheesy builds), meaning you'll have enough to stop the drops with good spine placement.
Either way, seems completely gimmicky and hardly "scary" compared to 5gates that gave months of tears to Zerg until they got figured out.
On July 15 2011 07:48 syriuszonito wrote: thats just another tricky all in that will fail badly when you know how to deal with it. Any competent zerg will start pumping units if he does not see an expansion going down at 6 min mark and if he splits his army he will demolish your attack without a problem which basically means the game is over for you.
As the op stated and shown in replays, they build works at high master level, don't pull this "any competent zerg will demolish you crap". Of course if a strategy is scouted you can prepare for it. If you are not going to contribute, don't post. Do you really enjoy dismissing someone's good work like that? Think about how you feel when people to that to you.
On August 14 2011 02:07 Silent331 wrote: The most i would commit to stopping this is a single spore crawler above the ramp in my main. This is a bad all in imo, a good allin uses strong timings and the optimum use of resources. This does neither, this is simply terrain abuse.
I'm sorry, I usually despise talking in such a way, but...
LOL
As far as I can remember, I've yet to see someone putting preventively a spore crawler above the ramp. I don't know, the mineral line usually seems a good idea. And I've yet to see a zerg that scouts a robotics bay (because they can sometimes scout it, shame on the sentries dps) put down spore crawlers.
Also, this build exploits strong timings : the moment you hit is particularly good, the Zerg usually does not have enough units to split between his main and nat. He has shitloads of them in production, but who cares, half of them won't fight your army.
The build has optimal use of resource. You know, 4 gates, one base. I fail to see how you can do much better. (Though, as my mechanics suck, I usually plant a fifth gate right when I leave, along with the pylon to block the ramp)
This build strongly abuses terrain, which is often a good thing.
On the other hand, I don't say that it's unbeatable, far from it. I've had my share of loss, this build fails to very calm zerg players that react well with good queen micro. But most of them don't. I mean, as a random player, I tend to not use my queens if it's not my mineral line that is under fire.
This is cute, but I think anyone going heavy queens early or puts a defensive spore won't have a hard time with it.
It seems cute and situational, much like most of the other PvZ strats/builds/guides out there right now. I think this sort of play will be good for now but, as people see it more / get better it will become rather worthless. The real problem is that, by the time you have robo tech, Zerg can have a variety of things and you do it sort of blind in hopes that they chose something you can exploit.
I do agree that in time Zergs will learn how to defend it, as any strategy gets diminished in power over time. Remember when 4 gate was the bane of PvP? Nowadays, a lot of protoss hope the opponent will 4gate because we all know how to counter it. A build being strong for some time then getting partially/completely shutdown is at the base of a game's evolution.
As for the reliability, it's obviously not the kind of build that you should do every/most of your games on the ladder, but it's a good way of surprising an opponent in a BoX or once in a while on the ladder.
I like it, AND I'M A ZERG! Omg i wish people dont start using this!
However the name? Cookie Cutter is already used to discribe a "By the book standard build" Not really a good name for this, name it something unique.. like the ice fisher build =P
Why the fuck are people saying "defensive spore"? Who would put a "defensive spore" after scouting a robo bay? Even if they would, why would they put it near their ramp? Damn guys, I thought you were better than this.
On August 14 2011 04:56 Xanbatou wrote: Why the fuck are people saying "defensive spore"? Who would put a "defensive spore" after scouting a robo bay? Even if they would, why would they put it near their ramp? Damn guys, I thought you were better than this.
This. And it also looks like a normal 3gate sentry expand, so very often Z's won't sac a ovi in seeing as many sentries.
On August 14 2011 04:56 Xanbatou wrote: Why the fuck are people saying "defensive spore"? Who would put a "defensive spore" after scouting a robo bay? Even if they would, why would they put it near their ramp? Damn guys, I thought you were better than this.
This. And it also looks like a normal 3gate sentry expand, so very often Z's won't sac a ovi in seeing as many sentries.
And this. The whole idea of spores makes no sense.
This is old its been done, hell I stumbled on that strat long ago. This is what I mean when people try and name a strat after someone, i know this has nothing to do with your post I am just saying that you cant name a strat after someone because someone has done it already :D
What happens if, say the zerg is going roaches or making a heavy ling force, so when you forcefield the ramp, a bunch of units pop from the hatchery that you are near, killing your sentries before units warp in? It seems like you'd either be way way behind or just dead. Now, this is a more luck based counter, but it still seems like it could happen.
On August 14 2011 05:26 SeizeTheDay wrote: This is old its been done, hell I stumbled on that strat long ago. This is what I mean when people try and name a strat after someone, i know this has nothing to do with your post I am just saying that you cant name a strat after someone because someone has done it already :D
Yeah, of course you stumbled upon it long ago, like everyone else did about every other strat.
Good strat, but it seems a bit too gimmicky to me... it loses to any opening that gets more than 3 queens, and any good Z that sees the Prisms floating in. 2 prisms means essentially the same thing as 2 drop ships, the potential to get dropped in 2 places. So you should ideally split your units...
On close air positions though, it seems very strong. You'd have a short time to react even if you saw the prisms coming, you'd have to make a bunch of lings, pull all queens, target prisms... it's an interesting strat for sure.
On July 15 2011 07:52 Synystyr wrote: This is definitely one of those builds that will force every single Zerg player out there to adapt their style just a tad in order to deal with this if it happens to hit them. I love that aspect of this. Little things like this are what help the game evolve. Very, very impressive. Good use of Sentries and Warp Prisms.
Hats off!
I hope stuff like this finally gets Blizzard to address the force field and Zergs utter lack of anything to deal with it.
Until then, I have been going to a standard hydraling composition to help me secure my 3rd in ZvP fairly regularly lately, it can handle this quite well.
Against anybody who isn't blindly making those types of units and waiting around though, this should prove highly effective.
I found the two bolded parts together pretty funny
very very nice strategy :D watched two of the replays, going to watch the third, i think its very strong if not scouted, and even if scouted ( the robo ) it doesnt necessarily mean that you have this strategy in mind. even so i think this is a strong opener, based off the replays, and i would like to see some transitions from this ( after you kill the nat, or are unable to do further dmg )
Kinda seems like this works a lot on the fact that its uncommon... It's not like it'd be hard to scout to differentiate this from a 3g exp, even if Z doesn't want to sac an overlord scout he can just keep checking your expo and from there once a 'correct response' has been determined this looks like it'd get crushed.
On August 14 2011 06:23 shammythefox wrote: Kinda seems like this works a lot on the fact that its uncommon... It's not like it'd be hard to scout to differentiate this from a 3g exp, even if Z doesn't want to sac an overlord scout he can just keep checking your expo and from there once a 'correct response' has been determined this looks like it'd get crushed.
Although shammy said most Z tend to sac lings to make sure an expo is there and if they don't see anything then they would prepare more for an all-in (probably a 4 gate), the use of the warp prisms would create a very good trick, forcing units to the front and being able to drop into the main. Although this seems very all-in its a nice interesting build that incorporates the underused warp prism.
interesting, this is something that if i lost to id probably rage that force fields r op but good idea i kind of hope someone tries this on me so i can tell if its good or not
Should be pretty strong, and very hard to deal with. Still requires protoss to have a constant stream of forcefields at the ramp while (probably) microing against reinforcements in the base and making yet other types of units.
With all that gas expense and the late(r) timing that a standart 4gate you shouldn't be able to make much more than a few stalkers and will probably be forced to make zealots. Means more roaches, making of spine crawlers, the need to suicide an overlord to scout (which is already standart at this time), and maybe even positioning overlords to scout for drops (in zvp! how strange and bizarre!).
I'm fairly certain this can be a very fragile strategy once it is known, however it should be pretty strong and still hard to react to.
I may not like this build (having to deal with it) but i'm glad protosses finally realise they have drops that can be used to reinforce the position, and increase their mobility. With this being known there may be more players that will try to use them in the midgame with a macro strategy, as it kinda forces hydras (to deal with the warp prism and the army) and is directly linked to robo tech.
God what am I doing giving ideas to protosses. Just forget what I said and stick to allins x)
(PS:at worst, doing a baneling bust counter attack into basetrade hiding extractors over the whole map can be an answer... amirite? ^^')
Like someone above said, this tactic is straight up weaker than a 5 gate off a 1 gate expo. It seems to come slower, has about the same number of units and less resources behind it.
The only true advantage is ability to separate the zerg army due to small ramp. This is a gimmick this tactic relies on. This gimmick will be worked around in short order.
The truly interesting thing about this strategy seems to be the fact that it exploits the timing window when zergs are simply not used for protoss to push out this early off a single base. Once they determine it's neither 4 gate, nor expansion, nor air, they think that it's probably colossus or possibly dts. Both leaves them a minute or so to drone up. That's when the prisms hit them.
I love how in the beginning of this thread a lot of the early posts were "seems gimmicky/might work" I was hoping this thread wasn't going to get to popular so I would be able to abuse the crap out of it under the radar of blizzard but cheers. Hopefully we will see some interesting meta game changes before a possible forcefield nerf. Cheers brotoss, have fun.
Ive seen this build on the GSL not new or revolutionary can be easily counter with good ovie spread.
One sick thing to do with warp prism is 2 sentry 2ht drop. Forcefield all the worker in the meral line and just storm them can clear 3 expo real quick and other player just cant do nothing about it.
Back to the build it's a decent all-in but still easy to counter it really depend on the style of the zerg tho with this you can get in a base trade after first forcefield. Good luck going down the ramp after to kill the expo.
We now have 3 different 'prism sentry drop i-win-button' threads going on atm. As usual zerg will be the one race having 'to adapt' to these shenanigans.
Once Blizzard finds out PvZ will have like an 80% win rate, I'll be long gone as a zerg.
Fun build i just tried it for the first time and won. It was ugly though. Definetley something im gonna need to practice and clean up. My oppenent then proceeded to say "worst build ever" and rage quit...
Its not revolutionary. It's only going to work once against a player who's not a retard, and will never work on me because I now know how to beat it thanks to you.
Basically you just have to split your army into 2 halves the second you see an early prism and he will never have enough time to warp in enough units before you kill the sentries.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i53.tinypic.com/qph1lt.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i52.tinypic.com/2wdseth.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i56.tinypic.com/ixf3gx.jpg)
Wouldn't want to rely on this as your "solid" build because going in with 2 warpprisms is quite a risk ( Like in the first replay, if the queens were a little bit better targeted you would have lost a warp prism + 4 sentries in it ). But in a boX situation this could be a killer!
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