EPT[G] TvZ: 1 Rax FE Done Right - Page 2
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
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proxY_
United States1561 Posts
On June 28 2011 07:43 Exley wrote: The building-blockers are to prevent double-bunker or pylon blocks at the base of ramps. A 2 building walloff at the bottom of a ramp is countered by roach openings, even after hatch first---- not many zergs are afraid of this type of walloff, since 2 or 3 marines denies most ramp scouting anyway. I originally thought the neutral structure was there to prevent those blocks as well but according to Tastosis at MLG it's there primarily to prevent the two building wall-off. It's very dangerous for the zerg to open roaches against the two building wall off for a couple of reasons too. The zerg has no idea what's behind the wall off, they could be roach rushing two port banshees for all they know. There's also the issue of the terran scouting the roach timing, roaches take forever to get across the map and the terran can keep their scv alive on the map until ling speed is up. A scan or sacing the scv into the main can also potentially spot the roach waren. If the zerg does a proper roach rush it amounts to doing a blind all-in and good players just don't do that. | ||
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13JackaL
United States577 Posts
I think that with a well controlled army, you should do a pretty significant amount of damage, whether it be sniping the natural or trading armies. But on the other hand, if they get a lucky baneling to kill your whole friggin army then you may have an issue, and the best defense against counter-allins is bunkers IMO. | ||
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Exley
United States239 Posts
On June 28 2011 07:58 proxY_ wrote: I originally thought the neutral structure was there to prevent those blocks as well but according to Tastosis at MLG it's there primarily to prevent the two building wall-off. It's very dangerous for the zerg to open roaches against the two building wall off for a couple of reasons too. The zerg has no idea what's behind the wall off, they could be roach rushing two port banshees for all they know. There's also the issue of the terran scouting the roach timing, roaches take forever to get across the map and the terran can keep their scv alive on the map until ling speed is up. A scan or sacing the scv into the main can also potentially spot the roach waren. If the zerg does a proper roach rush it amounts to doing a blind all-in and good players just don't do that. Then why don't you see pros using 2-building walloff if it's not vulnerable to roach? I only see 2-building walloff in maybe 5% of games~ | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On June 28 2011 08:13 Exley wrote: Then why don't you see pros using 2-building walloff if it's not vulnerable to roach? I only see 2-building walloff in maybe 5% of games~ You're 100% right it's weak to roaches. Even with a bunker, starting marines at 18 you won't have but a handful by the time the roaches do hit, let alone a bunker. Especially with the way he has this BO, the roaches with a OL spotter won't be stopped by just marines. Then, if/when you do beat them back they can camp your nat and keep your from getting your nat even longer. I'm a mid-high level masters Terran and I use a 9:30~ MM push pretty often, not even with +1 sometimes. It usually just outright kills the zerg if they don't see it coming, which is why is helps to control the towers. I'm allllmost 1600 masters on both NA and EU, and I can tell you MM rushes will work maybe 1 in 10 games. It just isn't effective. Slings are TO effective against mara marine without hellions or tanks, period. The thing is zergs can see a lot coming from what they don't see. No early aggression means it's safe for them to drone. By what... 8 minutes they're content on two base with drones, and can army up and still out army you by the time you hit. I'm saying I used to do these rushes early in masters, but I had blue flames which makes the slings almost worthless and I STILL got beat back by sling bling. Sure, you deny his scouting, but you're too passive. Zerg has complete map control until your push comes out. 1 sling at your nat sees it, and he can morph banes, set up a flank, and make 1-3 crawlers and just delay your incoming push with slings. He can bait stims, and run, bait stims and run. Or even just do a run by, as he remakes a ton of slings to stop your push. It's very dangerous for the zerg to open roaches against the two building wall off for a couple of reasons too. The zerg has no idea what's behind the wall off, they could be roach rushing two port banshees for all they know. There's also the issue of the terran scouting the roach timing, roaches take forever to get across the map and the terran can keep their scv alive on the map until ling speed is up. A scan or sacing the scv into the main can also potentially spot the roach waren. If the zerg does a proper roach rush it amounts to doing a blind all-in and good players just don't do that. The combonation of roaches + extra queens is 100% safe against any low wall play. Delay lair, early evo, 1-2 spores max and just roach and queen. Spread creep, and safe from any banshee/hellion/marine all in kind of play. No you cannot keep the scv alive until speed is up. Once you are near creep it's too slow. I do ninja scouts at certain times too, so I know to hide my scv after I see the pool pop. Even then it's a coin toss if I can distract him enough with marines to sneak the SCV in. | ||
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
2. Great guide will test the waters with this. I think it looks rather solid. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On June 28 2011 08:13 Exley wrote: Then why don't you see pros using 2-building walloff if it's not vulnerable to roach? I only see 2-building walloff in maybe 5% of games~ Tournament maps you can't do that 2-building walloff. So on ladder there's no reason to do it. | ||
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Frequencyy
United States344 Posts
Yeah I saw that don't be an ass. How about you post something productive pal? The 9:30 push I don't think is meant to kill but it very well can and you typically want to apply some pressure during the 8-11 minute mark on the zerg and it's just a little timing you can do with this build. | ||
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dementrio
678 Posts
you don't actually need to commit, just 5 roaches or so will kill the depo and threaten the terran enough that he'll have to show you more than a few marines | ||
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On June 28 2011 09:03 dementrio wrote: the reason it's risky to go roach when you can't scout their gas is because they could be going marine-scv allin. BUT oth its risky to do everything else when blind, you do get a guaranteed depo kill if you go roach, and you force him to show his hand to defend. Once you know what he's doing you can hold everything fine (except, again, the scv allins) you don't actually need to commit, just 5 roaches or so will kill the depo and threaten the terran enough that he'll have to show you more than a few marines How not? Put up spines. Pull drones and queens to nat. Delay with roaches. I believe roaches > marines in terms of speed. Just kite him back to your base. Buy time. Inject. Pop slings, set up a flank. ???? Profit | ||
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Ledo
Australia31 Posts
What time is the standard for infestors? like 11 mins? i guess a 9:30 push would work. Is it really that cost effective though? | ||
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
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dementrio
678 Posts
On June 28 2011 09:34 iAmJeffReY wrote: How not? Put up spines. Pull drones and queens to nat. Delay with roaches. I believe roaches > marines in terms of speed. Just kite him back to your base. Buy time. Inject. Pop slings, set up a flank. ???? Profit you delay speed to get roaches, slow lings are useless, roaches have the same speed as marines and are slower than scvs. Spines do not get up in time. | ||
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Exley
United States239 Posts
On June 28 2011 08:32 Numy wrote: Tournament maps you can't do that 2-building walloff. So on ladder there's no reason to do it. So then why will pros 2-rax bunker rush 99% of the time in close pos metal or shattered temple on ladder? You can't do that in tourneys... but they still do it on ladder.... People don't think like 'since I can't do it in a tourney, I won't do it now." They are playing to win the game at hand. The walloff at the bottom of the ramp has one benefit in denying the initial drone scout, but it is weak to roaches and means you can't build an addon with that first rax --- this is critical since the zerg can wait 5 drones before normally having to prepare for hellions or banshees, or in this case heavy bio. The OP is well-written; I'll definitely give it that. This build would have been great about 2 months ago when NA zergs didn't know how to build roaches in ZvT--- In other words, if the zerg is going IdrA-style 2 base muta you will hit with a good amount of bio before bling speed/mutas are out. If you know your opponent is a muta-ling guy I would try this out, but I wouldn't use a bio opener as your standard. | ||
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eXwOn
Canada351 Posts
That being said, I would never bring myself to use it on ladder. I hate to be a gigantic poop, but you never gave use replays of a zerg doing a proper counter to your 1 rax CC. My main concerns would be any of these: If the zerg pushed with a modest 3 roaches at 5:00, followed up by aggression. If the zerg took a fast expo at 7:00 If the zerg did roach drops at 8:00 And of course if the zerg does a 2 base baneling bust at 7:00 Another theme with your build is that it's focused around the midgame. You take a risk in the earlygame then build up a sizable force to defend~but in doing that you heavily delay taking a third. So your 13:00 minute push really needs to do damage. Sorry if I sound like a debby downer - I do really respect your plays Griff; but I just don't think it's for me. | ||
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Diderick
Netherlands298 Posts
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link0
United States1071 Posts
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jjhchsc2
Korea (South)2393 Posts
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On June 28 2011 19:09 link0 wrote: I think this build is fine (to mix in a bo3 set) as long as you scout really really well against kyrix busts. I wouldn't do this build every time though, because it can be blind countered. how do you scout 'very well' ? You're blind for the first 10 minutes against good Zergs. You have to get some fast units to get some information against quick Speedlings | ||
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