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This guide has no fancy units, no fancy tactics, no "holy shit wow" element. It's more of an optimization/timing guide focusing on strong fundamentals. Many of its essential elements are adapted from FlaSh's BW TvZ build. This is hands down THE most economical and safe FE build, beaten only by Naked 15 CC. I use it almost exclusively in my Masters TvZ games. This build prepares you for the age-old BW TvZ adage:
TvZ is a war of attrition - the side that trades units most cost-effectively in the long run wins the game.
To accomplish this goal, the play-style utilizes the following:
1. Fast infantry upgrades, with 3/3 before 18-19 minutes, 2/2 by around 16 minutes.
2. Constant aggression starting at the 9:30 mark, starting with a very strong Marine Marauder stim/combat shield/+1 timing that hits right before the standardmutas, burrowed banelings, and infestor timings. The latter two is what ruined 4OC - as they make zerg units extremely cost effective.
3. Similar economy strength to that of 3OC, but with only 2OCs!
4. Transition into Marine Marauder Medivac Tank while taking a 3rd.
5. Unlike BW - You cannot stop Marine Marauder with 2/3Hatch muta. If Z makes fast mutas - he will die miserably to the first push.
Requirements:
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1. Solid marine/marauder splitting skills, your first 1-2 pushes will be heavy bio focused. Practice Marine Split Challenge and Marine Tank Challenge. You need to be able to pull back your marines and letting your marauders tank the damage.
2. Strong macro - being able to manage 5+ rax, 2+ fact, and 1 port production consistently.
3. Game sense & scouting - knowing when to hit the zerg's 3rd, when you are ahead, when you need to push, when you sit back and turtle.
For these reasons this build is recommended for Masters level and higher.
Early Game (0-9 minutes):
Build
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10 Depot (bottom ramp)
12 Rax[1] (bottom ramp, do not make marines until 18 supply)
16 CC
17 Depot
19 OC (your starting CC)
20 Gas
21 Rax[2]
23 OC (your second CC)
24 Rax[3]
26 Tech Lab on Rax[2]
@100 Gas - Stim
31 Depot
34 Tech Lab on Rax[3]
@100 Gas - Combat Shield
35+ Bunker@Nat / Lift OC and land at Nat (no later than 7:30).
Choice:
Ebay then Rax[4] (Faster ups)
or
Rax[4] then Ebay (More marines during your first push)
Early Game Goals:
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0. Do not die to 2 base baneling busts
1. Scout and determine Zerg's path - is he cheesing? is he droning hard? is he taking a fast third?
2. Fight over xel'naga towers intelligently.
3. Deny overlord scouting by patrolling marine around edges
4. Have ~22 marines and ~5 marauders for your first 9:30 push
5. At around ~8 Min - Start your factory.
6. Take all 4 gases during your initial push
Mid Game Goals (9-16 minutes):
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0. Determine is zerg is going infestors or mutas.
1. Tech to tanks and medivacs (~7-8 tanks by 15-16 minutes).
2. Prevent mutalisk harass by building turrets to create mutalisk traps.
3. Double ebays to start/finish 2/2 infantry and 1/0 vehicle
4. Secure your 3rd during your 13-14 minute push.
5. Deny creep spread and creep spread
7. Make up to 9 Rax and 2 Facts and 1 Reactored Starport.
Late Game Goals (16+ minutes)
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0. Start 3/3 infantry upgrades.
1. Abuse your 2/2 upgrades and drop the zerg relentlessly.
2. Deny expansions
Adaptations to Zerg Builds:
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1. Zerg takes a fast, ~7:00min, 3rd
In reality, this is very unlikely to happen - because the zerg does NOT know if you are going 1 rax FE or 3 rax all-in. But if it does happen, you need to 4 Rax ASAP and push right as the 3rd finishes. You don't need to wait for stim/combat shields.
2. 2 Base Baneling Bust,
Very likely scenario. You need to keep a scouting SCV should to do a drone count at around the 6:30 minute mark. If you want to play safe and blind against this, make 2 marauders with your tech labbed raxes first.
3. 1 Base All-in. 7RR/1 Base Baneling Bust/5RR/3RR
Double Bunker
4. Fast Infestors,
Medivac Marauder drop the infestors (ie. load 4 marauders into medivac), drop one at a time to snipe the infestors. Much more cost effective than using ghosts. Use money saved on turrets for more marines/marauders.
A lot of you may be wondering - why marauders? Simple reason, coupled with marines, they are amazing against speedlings, banelings, and infestors provided you have good unit control. Once you hit 3/3, marauders roflstomp through hatcheries.
PS: I will be off to compsci grad school in HK for a few years - I will have very little time left to play SC2. This will be essentially be my last guide for a while.
Replay Pack of 5 (Masters)
http://www.mediafire.com/?t59zz3glvn45vjo
Didn't realize sc2replayed has parsing problems - so zipped them all
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This guide is really fantastic but I really want to see replays of this love your planning throughout the game and that you start out with bio then go to biomech.
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Can the 9:30 aggro kill off a z going for infestors or at least prevent a z from getting infestors? I can see a lot of problems coming from a good number of infestors. You even said not to get ghosts in the adaptations section, so it better be some good aggro.
Even with 2/2 upgrade abuse, a z on 2 bases might be able to hide some tech while still making a bunch of units to hold off drops.
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On June 28 2011 05:30 Frequencyy wrote:
This guide is really fantastic but I really want to see replays of this love your planning throughout the game and that you start out with bio then god to biomech.
On June 28 2011 05:25 Griffith` wrote:
Replays
(compiling)
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sry - didnt realize sc2replayed went fubar - zipped and uploaded
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The thing is about the guides/reps from synsytr and griffith is they're no where near refined or high level builds or guides. I don't get it... /rant/
Low wall ramp is suicide vs a 10 pool or 11 overpool with nothing but late marines btw. You can only have 2-4 scvs MAX repairing your lower bunker, and then he's just streaming them in your base. Roach rush? You lose a supply and have to lift the rax. He doesn't have to hit at all.
I hate to theorycraft, but 1 ling outside your base hitting your depot will be able to see it's just a marine or how many etc if you show you cards, keep that in mind. A lot of zergs are learning solid OL poking and placement which demolishes any 'hidden' expo/tech builds the higher up we go in ladder.
Medivac Marauder drop the infestors (ie. load 4 marauders into medivac), drop one at a time to snipe the infestors. Much more cost effective than using ghosts. Use money saved on turrets for more marines/marauders.
Will not work. 1-infestors aren't alone. 2- they will FG the medics to keep you there, and slings are always with them. If you relift, FG + IT'errans and there goes 500/200 investment for most times no damage.
1. Zerg takes a fast, ~7:00min, 3rd
In reality, this is very unlikely to happen - because the zerg does NOT know if you are going 1 rax FE or 3 rax all-in. But if it does happen, you need to 4 Rax ASAP and push right as the 3rd finishes. You don't need to wait for stim/combat shields.
2. 2 Base Baneling Bust,
Very likely scenario. You need to keep a scouting SCV should to do a drone count at around the 6:30 minute mark. If you want to play safe and blind against this, make 2 marauders with your tech labbed raxes first.
How will you scout. Other than scan, you have no scout. What if it's a 2 base, 14 hatch 13 pool build that goes immediately into roaches upon seeing low ground wall, and just roach + sling bane 2 bases you? You can't scan everywhere. What if you scan the wrong base? Wasting scans on 3rd obviously at 7 minutes, so there's 1 wasted scan sometimes for naught.
4. Have ~22 marines and ~5 marauders for your first 9:30 push
Good luck beating ANY zerg army at 9:30 with just 22 marines and 5 marauders... Any losria style quick 3rd all tier1 roach sling bling bust once you drop that expo with no tanks is game over. You cannot stop it. To be honest, any 2 base sling only will walk all over this push with just a flank and good timing on creep.
2. Prevent mutalisk harass by building turrets to create mutalisk traps.
Another joke. You make no mention on how to do this. Because there is practically no way. Muta controllers just skirt the edges anyways feeling the waters. They're not stupid (most times) to walk into, what I imagine you're say, a gauntlet of turrets.
I can say well written, but just poor poor advice and build. You'll get ran over by any roach sling bling pressure, or any 2-3 base bust. Any roach pressure into fast mutas off two bases. Any sling bling eco bust off two bases. Any muta sling bling with half decent muta control and constant pressure to keep tank count low. No tanks? Banes will ass rape you. No tanks? Infestors will dominate you.
Edit -- two things. One -- sc2 is not broodwar. BW strats to not carry over for the facts of the new units and the way units ball up and high amounts of AoE.
Two -- I used to do marine mara medic blue flame pushes off 1 base that hit at 9 min before mutas pop, and it would get destroyed by roach sling bling. No way this softer version would contend as I have blue flames and a larger army with medics. However, it was a one base strategy, just saying.
Edit 2- and of the maps you can't low wall? Slag (I think) TDA scrap?
Edit 3- this is just, personally, a worse version of a reaper expand. The reaper expand gets early stim. Gets 4 rax. Gets expo dropped early. Techs to medics earlier. Sure, the CC starts later, but not by much. And the units aren't cut or not made early. Plus, the reaper actually gives you scouting information post scv dying.
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How will you scout. Other than scan, you have no scout. What if it's a 2 base, 14 hatch 13 pool build that goes immediately into roaches upon seeing low ground wall, and just roach + sling bane 2 bases you? You can't scan everywhere. What if you scan the wrong base? Wasting scans on 3rd obviously at 7 minutes, so there's 1 wasted scan sometimes for naught.
You hide your initial poking SCV and use it to poke back again @ the nat at ~6:30. Otherwise I just double bunker regardless at nat for safety.
Good luck beating ANY zerg army at 9:30 with just 22 marines and 5 marauders... Any losria style quick 3rd all tier1 roach sling bling bust once you drop that expo with no tanks is game over. You cannot stop it. To be honest, any 2 base sling only will walk all over this push with just a flank and good timing on creep. Marauders drop hatcheries so quickly its almost stupid silly.
22 marines/marauder w/ stim, shield, +1 is a hell of a lot more menacing than you might think. Admittedly - there arent many that do losira style on NA ladder - so I will find someone to test it against later today.
Another joke. You make no mention on how to do this. Because there is practically no way. Muta controllers just skirt the edges anyways feeling the waters. They're not stupid (most times) to walk into, what I imagine you're say, a gauntlet of turrets.
It's not a joke. There are many lessons to be carried over from BW on how to simcity turrets. You fuck up one turret placement in BW and your whole base gets run over by mutas. Ask any BW C or higher player and they'll tell you what a joke SC2 mutas are. You deal with mutas by by placing turrets on the outskirts first - so if mutas do decide to go in they have no out. It's how FlaSh/Fantasy and all the pros do it.
BFH suck against roach/bling - stimmed MM doesn't. I don't know how big your BFH/MM/Medivac 1 base army is. The difference is that mine is 2 base - you replenish your army in about 90 seconds.
Edit 2- and of the maps you can't low wall? Slag (I think) TDA scrap?
You put up an extra depot before your CC to complete your walloff. Admittedly, you delay your CC slightly on these maps. I don't use this build for scrap station (obv).
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A stim timing push seems to be a popular way to follow a 1 rax fe. I've played against this a few times and I think it's pretty strong, because it does hit before any of zerg's expensive tech investments can kick in. However, I think it's shut down hard by a low-tech quick 3rd as long as z gets baneling speed asap. You typically have your raxes at the front and won't be able to hide that you are making marauders, this can be read as a stim timing, and the way I deal with it is staying on 2 gas while taking 3rd (without saturating it), get baneling speed and deal with your push with 3 hatch lings and banelings. Once I hold that off you have to deal with 6gas mutas and I don't like your position.
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On June 28 2011 05:45 iAmJeffReY wrote:The thing is about the guides/reps from synsytr and griffith is they're no where near refined or high level builds or guides. I don't get it... /rant/ Low wall ramp is suicide vs a 10 pool or 11 overpool with nothing but late marines btw. You can only have 2-4 scvs MAX repairing your lower bunker, and then he's just streaming them in your base. Roach rush? You lose a supply and have to lift the rax. He doesn't have to hit at all. I hate to theorycraft, but 1 ling outside your base hitting your depot will be able to see it's just a marine or how many etc if you show you cards, keep that in mind. A lot of zergs are learning solid OL poking and placement which demolishes any 'hidden' expo/tech builds the higher up we go in ladder. Show nested quote +Medivac Marauder drop the infestors (ie. load 4 marauders into medivac), drop one at a time to snipe the infestors. Much more cost effective than using ghosts. Use money saved on turrets for more marines/marauders. Will not work. 1-infestors aren't alone. 2- they will FG the medics to keep you there, and slings are always with them. If you relift, FG + IT'errans and there goes 500/200 investment for most times no damage. Show nested quote +
1. Zerg takes a fast, ~7:00min, 3rd
In reality, this is very unlikely to happen - because the zerg does NOT know if you are going 1 rax FE or 3 rax all-in. But if it does happen, you need to 4 Rax ASAP and push right as the 3rd finishes. You don't need to wait for stim/combat shields.
2. 2 Base Baneling Bust,
Very likely scenario. You need to keep a scouting SCV should to do a drone count at around the 6:30 minute mark. If you want to play safe and blind against this, make 2 marauders with your tech labbed raxes first.
How will you scout. Other than scan, you have no scout. What if it's a 2 base, 14 hatch 13 pool build that goes immediately into roaches upon seeing low ground wall, and just roach + sling bane 2 bases you? You can't scan everywhere. What if you scan the wrong base? Wasting scans on 3rd obviously at 7 minutes, so there's 1 wasted scan sometimes for naught. Good luck beating ANY zerg army at 9:30 with just 22 marines and 5 marauders... Any losria style quick 3rd all tier1 roach sling bling bust once you drop that expo with no tanks is game over. You cannot stop it. To be honest, any 2 base sling only will walk all over this push with just a flank and good timing on creep. Another joke. You make no mention on how to do this. Because there is practically no way. Muta controllers just skirt the edges anyways feeling the waters. They're not stupid (most times) to walk into, what I imagine you're say, a gauntlet of turrets. I can say well written, but just poor poor advice and build. You'll get ran over by any roach sling bling pressure, or any 2-3 base bust. Any roach pressure into fast mutas off two bases. Any sling bling eco bust off two bases. Any muta sling bling with half decent muta control and constant pressure to keep tank count low. No tanks? Banes will ass rape you. No tanks? Infestors will dominate you. Edit -- two things. One -- sc2 is not broodwar. BW strats to not carry over for the facts of the new units and the way units ball up and high amounts of AoE. Two -- I used to do marine mara medic blue flame pushes off 1 base that hit at 9 min before mutas pop, and it would get destroyed by roach sling bling. No way this softer version would contend as I have blue flames and a larger army with medics. However, it was a one base strategy, just saying. Edit 2- and of the maps you can't low wall? Slag (I think) TDA scrap? Edit 3- this is just, personally, a worse version of a reaper expand. The reaper expand gets early stim. Gets 4 rax. Gets expo dropped early. Techs to medics earlier. Sure, the CC starts later, but not by much. And the units aren't cut or not made early. Plus, the reaper actually gives you scouting information post scv dying.
You make a lot of valid points, however I see this working very well vs Losira style as your starting with Rauders anyway which are key to beating roach/bling armies. If you push at 9:30 see the mass roach ling/blng just back out, wait for some tanks/medivac and then hit his third super hard.
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Wow, this guide is fantastic ( sorry I read the first post  )
I like how you specifically address how to adapt to common responses by Zerg in a very crisp, concise manner.
Thanks!
Also, are you sure that 16 CC and 19 OC are better than the 15 OC and 16 CC that people do? (economically in the long run)
Edit:
Just realized this is Griffith, and he is going to be inactive now?!?!
nuuuu
Thanks for your contributions!
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Also, are you sure that 16 CC and 19 OC are better than the 15 OC and 16 CC that people do? (economically in the long run)
For 15OC/16CC build, 16CC is really not "16 CC", its built at the same time as around an 18 CC of the 16CC/19OC build (as during the time your OC is morphing in, you're not actually building any SCVs, and OC takes ~2 SCV build time + 1 Marine). The main crux is that the MULE doesn't pay off itself until about ~2 minutes after you start the construction of your OC.
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Can I ask, somewhat off topic, where your replays are coming from? Ladder. Or just random custom games on the same map. I downloaded the reps, but I gotta find a new unzip program.,
But, look at your profile, you have what.. 9 solo ladder games played? I feel something like this should be widely tested on ladder, and not just random custom games. Ladder is a lot more random, and better to flesh out problems of a build, as opposed to saying 'scout for a banebust'
Because, checking your history, a guy did a 2 base bane bust on you and apparently won the game with just that bust on xel naga.
You make a lot of valid points, however I see this working very well vs Losira style as your starting with Rauders anyway which are key to beating roach/bling armies. If you push at 9:30 see the mass roach ling/blng just back out, wait for some tanks/medivac and then hit his third super hard.
If you have an army on two base and pull back, the zerg already saw your cards and can set up a sling bling roach flank. Yes, mara is good against roach. But as his push states... he has 5. 5. Who's to say those 5 are in any kind of position. Zerg reaching lair tech, and staying up on upgrades (read fast melee and armor ups) would have +1/+1 or +2/+1 by the time you pulled back and hit. Then it's all in, as he's on 3 if not 4 bases compared to your 2 base mara marine tank medic push. And if he opens losria style, doesnt mean they have to stay on roaches. Many that I face go right into muta sling bling and muta harass my tank count down + keep me in base to take an early 4th, get IPit, and tech to lair.
So in short, all im asking is
22 marines/marauder w/ stim, shield, +1 is a hell of a lot more menacing than you might think. Admittedly - there arent many that do losira style on NA ladder - so I will find someone to test it against later today.
Are you on a smurf, or just saying there aren't many losria style zergs? A lot that I face are doing a pseduo style, with a macro hatch at the nat before the lair, to do 3 hatch sling bling pressure until muta pops.
I like how you specifically address how to adapt to common responses by Zerg in a very crisp, concise manner.
But he doesn't address many popular zerg openings and stratgies on the ladder. No jecho style roach sling bling bust, no losria style ling heavy roach sling pressure, no spanishwa (which btw I feel would wreck this. That early econ + quick upgrades on slings is all they need to beat back the first push, take a third and coast to a win) No two base bane bust. etc
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GRITTHI!
So happy to see you posting again, all of your guides have been amazing. - this one included.
I'm trying this out, first game so far the results have been good.
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I love you so much for this.
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Yeah, the way you play doesn't work on ladder, unless you enjoy flipping coins.
Right the first replay I open you wander around the map with 10 marines at 7 minutes and 0 defenses at home. Any Zerg can just make ling/bling off 24 drones and kill you since you have 0 information.
10 Marines and an unfinished bunker at 7:00 isn't a viable 2base-defense. You see the pros going Reaper or Reactor Hellion or Banshee, they do that to see what the Zerg is doing and force him to use his units for defense. You can't just wander into your natural hoping that the Zerg is droning.
Custom games with friends unfortunately is not a good way to check the viability of a build 
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I watched a couple of the replays, the key to this working is that you're 2 building walling the bottom of your ramp and denying the zerg any kind of scouting info. This is every zerg's worst nightmare against terran and probably the primary reason that most tournament maps nowadays have neutral structures at the bottom of the ramps.
By the time the zerg realizes what's going on they're going to be behind because they likely tried to play really safe (roach warren, evo chamber, maybe even a third queen) because they had no idea what was going on and there are 3 or 4 things that terran can do that will outright kill them. The two main counters to this (fast 3rd and 2 base ling baneling all-in) both have the potential to be extremely hard countered so the zerg is generally just opting to two base hardcore as they have no info which is ultimately putting them really far behind to this.
I really feel like a ling baneling all-in off of 2 base that's well executed should beat this, but by the time the zerg figures out what's going on it's too late.
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On June 28 2011 06:18 Griffith` wrote:Show nested quote +
Also, are you sure that 16 CC and 19 OC are better than the 15 OC and 16 CC that people do? (economically in the long run)
For 15OC/16CC build, 16CC is really not "16 CC", its built at the same time as around an 18 CC of the 16CC/19OC build (as during the time your OC is morphing in, you're not actually building any SCVs, and OC takes ~2 SCV build time + 1 Marine). The main crux is that the MULE doesn't pay off itself until about ~2 minutes after you start the construction of your OC.
Thanks, didn't know =O
On June 28 2011 07:07 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +
I like how you specifically address how to adapt to common responses by Zerg in a very crisp, concise manner.
But he doesn't address many popular zerg openings and stratgies on the ladder. No jecho style roach sling bling bust, no losria style ling heavy roach sling pressure, no spanishwa (which btw I feel would wreck this. That early econ + quick upgrades on slings is all they need to beat back the first push, take a third and coast to a win) No two base bane bust. etc
Thanks for your insightful input 
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On June 28 2011 07:38 proxY_ wrote:
I watched a couple of the replays, the key to this working is that you're 2 building walling the bottom of your ramp and denying the zerg any kind of scouting info. This is every zerg's worst nightmare against terran and probably the primary reason that most tournament maps nowadays have neutral structures at the bottom of the ramps.
The building-blockers are to prevent double-bunker or pylon blocks at the base of ramps.
A 2 building walloff at the bottom of a ramp is countered by roach openings, even after hatch first---- not many zergs are afraid of this type of walloff, since 2 or 3 marines denies most ramp scouting anyway.
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Wow, i use a different style of 1rax expo in tvz. I guess im doing it wrong?
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Great guide but I have to agree with iAmJeffReY. Any 2base agression will kill you, unless you make at least 3 bunkers (and then it still will be hard, you actually need 4-5). Scouting a 2base agression from the zerg is VERY hard and somethimes even impossible (unless you waste 2 scans). Thats why most progamers follow their gasless expand with 2fact blueflame hellion. With those hellions you can hold the bust and you can have 4 tanks around the 10:30 minute mark.
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On June 28 2011 07:43 Exley wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 07:38 proxY_ wrote:
I watched a couple of the replays, the key to this working is that you're 2 building walling the bottom of your ramp and denying the zerg any kind of scouting info. This is every zerg's worst nightmare against terran and probably the primary reason that most tournament maps nowadays have neutral structures at the bottom of the ramps. The building-blockers are to prevent double-bunker or pylon blocks at the base of ramps. A 2 building walloff at the bottom of a ramp is countered by roach openings, even after hatch first---- not many zergs are afraid of this type of walloff, since 2 or 3 marines denies most ramp scouting anyway.
I originally thought the neutral structure was there to prevent those blocks as well but according to Tastosis at MLG it's there primarily to prevent the two building wall-off.
It's very dangerous for the zerg to open roaches against the two building wall off for a couple of reasons too. The zerg has no idea what's behind the wall off, they could be roach rushing two port banshees for all they know. There's also the issue of the terran scouting the roach timing, roaches take forever to get across the map and the terran can keep their scv alive on the map until ling speed is up. A scan or sacing the scv into the main can also potentially spot the roach waren. If the zerg does a proper roach rush it amounts to doing a blind all-in and good players just don't do that.
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I'm a mid-high level masters Terran and I use a 9:30~ MM push pretty often, not even with +1 sometimes. It usually just outright kills the zerg if they don't see it coming, which is why is helps to control the towers.
I think that with a well controlled army, you should do a pretty significant amount of damage, whether it be sniping the natural or trading armies.
But on the other hand, if they get a lucky baneling to kill your whole friggin army then you may have an issue, and the best defense against counter-allins is bunkers IMO.
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On June 28 2011 07:58 proxY_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 07:43 Exley wrote:On June 28 2011 07:38 proxY_ wrote:
I watched a couple of the replays, the key to this working is that you're 2 building walling the bottom of your ramp and denying the zerg any kind of scouting info. This is every zerg's worst nightmare against terran and probably the primary reason that most tournament maps nowadays have neutral structures at the bottom of the ramps. The building-blockers are to prevent double-bunker or pylon blocks at the base of ramps. A 2 building walloff at the bottom of a ramp is countered by roach openings, even after hatch first---- not many zergs are afraid of this type of walloff, since 2 or 3 marines denies most ramp scouting anyway. I originally thought the neutral structure was there to prevent those blocks as well but according to Tastosis at MLG it's there primarily to prevent the two building wall-off. It's very dangerous for the zerg to open roaches against the two building wall off for a couple of reasons too. The zerg has no idea what's behind the wall off, they could be roach rushing two port banshees for all they know. There's also the issue of the terran scouting the roach timing, roaches take forever to get across the map and the terran can keep their scv alive on the map until ling speed is up. A scan or sacing the scv into the main can also potentially spot the roach waren. If the zerg does a proper roach rush it amounts to doing a blind all-in and good players just don't do that.
Then why don't you see pros using 2-building walloff if it's not vulnerable to roach? I only see 2-building walloff in maybe 5% of games~
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On June 28 2011 08:13 Exley wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 07:58 proxY_ wrote:On June 28 2011 07:43 Exley wrote:On June 28 2011 07:38 proxY_ wrote:
I watched a couple of the replays, the key to this working is that you're 2 building walling the bottom of your ramp and denying the zerg any kind of scouting info. This is every zerg's worst nightmare against terran and probably the primary reason that most tournament maps nowadays have neutral structures at the bottom of the ramps. The building-blockers are to prevent double-bunker or pylon blocks at the base of ramps. A 2 building walloff at the bottom of a ramp is countered by roach openings, even after hatch first---- not many zergs are afraid of this type of walloff, since 2 or 3 marines denies most ramp scouting anyway. I originally thought the neutral structure was there to prevent those blocks as well but according to Tastosis at MLG it's there primarily to prevent the two building wall-off. It's very dangerous for the zerg to open roaches against the two building wall off for a couple of reasons too. The zerg has no idea what's behind the wall off, they could be roach rushing two port banshees for all they know. There's also the issue of the terran scouting the roach timing, roaches take forever to get across the map and the terran can keep their scv alive on the map until ling speed is up. A scan or sacing the scv into the main can also potentially spot the roach waren. If the zerg does a proper roach rush it amounts to doing a blind all-in and good players just don't do that. Then why don't you see pros using 2-building walloff if it's not vulnerable to roach? I only see 2-building walloff in maybe 5% of games~
You're 100% right it's weak to roaches. Even with a bunker, starting marines at 18 you won't have but a handful by the time the roaches do hit, let alone a bunker. Especially with the way he has this BO, the roaches with a OL spotter won't be stopped by just marines.
Then, if/when you do beat them back they can camp your nat and keep your from getting your nat even longer.
I'm a mid-high level masters Terran and I use a 9:30~ MM push pretty often, not even with +1 sometimes. It usually just outright kills the zerg if they don't see it coming, which is why is helps to control the towers.
I'm allllmost 1600 masters on both NA and EU, and I can tell you MM rushes will work maybe 1 in 10 games. It just isn't effective. Slings are TO effective against mara marine without hellions or tanks, period. The thing is zergs can see a lot coming from what they don't see. No early aggression means it's safe for them to drone. By what... 8 minutes they're content on two base with drones, and can army up and still out army you by the time you hit.
I'm saying I used to do these rushes early in masters, but I had blue flames which makes the slings almost worthless and I STILL got beat back by sling bling.
Sure, you deny his scouting, but you're too passive. Zerg has complete map control until your push comes out. 1 sling at your nat sees it, and he can morph banes, set up a flank, and make 1-3 crawlers and just delay your incoming push with slings. He can bait stims, and run, bait stims and run. Or even just do a run by, as he remakes a ton of slings to stop your push.
It's very dangerous for the zerg to open roaches against the two building wall off for a couple of reasons too. The zerg has no idea what's behind the wall off, they could be roach rushing two port banshees for all they know. There's also the issue of the terran scouting the roach timing, roaches take forever to get across the map and the terran can keep their scv alive on the map until ling speed is up. A scan or sacing the scv into the main can also potentially spot the roach waren. If the zerg does a proper roach rush it amounts to doing a blind all-in and good players just don't do that.
The combonation of roaches + extra queens is 100% safe against any low wall play. Delay lair, early evo, 1-2 spores max and just roach and queen. Spread creep, and safe from any banshee/hellion/marine all in kind of play. No you cannot keep the scv alive until speed is up. Once you are near creep it's too slow. I do ninja scouts at certain times too, so I know to hide my scv after I see the pool pop. Even then it's a coin toss if I can distract him enough with marines to sneak the SCV in.
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1. why is it not called Griffith's 1 Rax FE?
2. Great guide will test the waters with this. I think it looks rather solid.
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On June 28 2011 08:13 Exley wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 07:58 proxY_ wrote:On June 28 2011 07:43 Exley wrote:On June 28 2011 07:38 proxY_ wrote:
I watched a couple of the replays, the key to this working is that you're 2 building walling the bottom of your ramp and denying the zerg any kind of scouting info. This is every zerg's worst nightmare against terran and probably the primary reason that most tournament maps nowadays have neutral structures at the bottom of the ramps. The building-blockers are to prevent double-bunker or pylon blocks at the base of ramps. A 2 building walloff at the bottom of a ramp is countered by roach openings, even after hatch first---- not many zergs are afraid of this type of walloff, since 2 or 3 marines denies most ramp scouting anyway. I originally thought the neutral structure was there to prevent those blocks as well but according to Tastosis at MLG it's there primarily to prevent the two building wall-off. It's very dangerous for the zerg to open roaches against the two building wall off for a couple of reasons too. The zerg has no idea what's behind the wall off, they could be roach rushing two port banshees for all they know. There's also the issue of the terran scouting the roach timing, roaches take forever to get across the map and the terran can keep their scv alive on the map until ling speed is up. A scan or sacing the scv into the main can also potentially spot the roach waren. If the zerg does a proper roach rush it amounts to doing a blind all-in and good players just don't do that. Then why don't you see pros using 2-building walloff if it's not vulnerable to roach? I only see 2-building walloff in maybe 5% of games~
Tournament maps you can't do that 2-building walloff. So on ladder there's no reason to do it.
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On June 28 2011 05:31 noobinator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 05:30 Frequencyy wrote:
This guide is really fantastic but I really want to see replays of this love your planning throughout the game and that you start out with bio then god to biomech.
Yeah I saw that don't be an ass. How about you post something productive pal? The 9:30 push I don't think is meant to kill but it very well can and you typically want to apply some pressure during the 8-11 minute mark on the zerg and it's just a little timing you can do with this build.
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the reason it's risky to go roach when you can't scout their gas is because they could be going marine-scv allin. BUT oth its risky to do everything else when blind, you do get a guaranteed depo kill if you go roach, and you force him to show his hand to defend. Once you know what he's doing you can hold everything fine (except, again, the scv allins)
you don't actually need to commit, just 5 roaches or so will kill the depo and threaten the terran enough that he'll have to show you more than a few marines
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i think any build based on bio for that long is bad. zergs in my experience can easily crush a mm force with just lings and banes or roach.
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On June 28 2011 09:03 dementrio wrote:
the reason it's risky to go roach when you can't scout their gas is because they could be going marine-scv allin. BUT oth its risky to do everything else when blind, you do get a guaranteed depo kill if you go roach, and you force him to show his hand to defend. Once you know what he's doing you can hold everything fine (except, again, the scv allins)
you don't actually need to commit, just 5 roaches or so will kill the depo and threaten the terran enough that he'll have to show you more than a few marines
How not? Put up spines. Pull drones and queens to nat. Delay with roaches. I believe roaches > marines in terms of speed. Just kite him back to your base. Buy time. Inject. Pop slings, set up a flank.
????
Profit
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I am always hesitant to go for Really heavy rax play entering the mid game, i feel far safer with tanks covering me somewhat from banelings and infestors.
What time is the standard for infestors? like 11 mins? i guess a 9:30 push would work. Is it really that cost effective though?
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im surprised you didnt brand the build with your name
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On June 28 2011 09:34 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 09:03 dementrio wrote:
the reason it's risky to go roach when you can't scout their gas is because they could be going marine-scv allin. BUT oth its risky to do everything else when blind, you do get a guaranteed depo kill if you go roach, and you force him to show his hand to defend. Once you know what he's doing you can hold everything fine (except, again, the scv allins)
you don't actually need to commit, just 5 roaches or so will kill the depo and threaten the terran enough that he'll have to show you more than a few marines How not? Put up spines. Pull drones and queens to nat. Delay with roaches. I believe roaches > marines in terms of speed. Just kite him back to your base. Buy time. Inject. Pop slings, set up a flank. ???? Profit
you delay speed to get roaches, slow lings are useless, roaches have the same speed as marines and are slower than scvs. Spines do not get up in time.
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On June 28 2011 08:32 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 08:13 Exley wrote:On June 28 2011 07:58 proxY_ wrote:On June 28 2011 07:43 Exley wrote:On June 28 2011 07:38 proxY_ wrote:
I watched a couple of the replays, the key to this working is that you're 2 building walling the bottom of your ramp and denying the zerg any kind of scouting info. This is every zerg's worst nightmare against terran and probably the primary reason that most tournament maps nowadays have neutral structures at the bottom of the ramps. The building-blockers are to prevent double-bunker or pylon blocks at the base of ramps. A 2 building walloff at the bottom of a ramp is countered by roach openings, even after hatch first---- not many zergs are afraid of this type of walloff, since 2 or 3 marines denies most ramp scouting anyway. I originally thought the neutral structure was there to prevent those blocks as well but according to Tastosis at MLG it's there primarily to prevent the two building wall-off. It's very dangerous for the zerg to open roaches against the two building wall off for a couple of reasons too. The zerg has no idea what's behind the wall off, they could be roach rushing two port banshees for all they know. There's also the issue of the terran scouting the roach timing, roaches take forever to get across the map and the terran can keep their scv alive on the map until ling speed is up. A scan or sacing the scv into the main can also potentially spot the roach waren. If the zerg does a proper roach rush it amounts to doing a blind all-in and good players just don't do that. Then why don't you see pros using 2-building walloff if it's not vulnerable to roach? I only see 2-building walloff in maybe 5% of games~ Tournament maps you can't do that 2-building walloff. So on ladder there's no reason to do it.
So then why will pros 2-rax bunker rush 99% of the time in close pos metal or shattered temple on ladder? You can't do that in tourneys... but they still do it on ladder....
People don't think like 'since I can't do it in a tourney, I won't do it now." They are playing to win the game at hand.
The walloff at the bottom of the ramp has one benefit in denying the initial drone scout, but it is weak to roaches and means you can't build an addon with that first rax --- this is critical since the zerg can wait 5 drones before normally having to prepare for hellions or banshees, or in this case heavy bio.
The OP is well-written; I'll definitely give it that. This build would have been great about 2 months ago when NA zergs didn't know how to build roaches in ZvT--- In other words, if the zerg is going IdrA-style 2 base muta you will hit with a good amount of bio before bling speed/mutas are out. If you know your opponent is a muta-ling guy I would try this out, but I wouldn't use a bio opener as your standard.
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Awesome man! I'm really glad you use a macro build to great effect.
That being said, I would never bring myself to use it on ladder. I hate to be a gigantic poop, but you never gave use replays of a zerg doing a proper counter to your 1 rax CC. My main concerns would be any of these:
If the zerg pushed with a modest 3 roaches at 5:00, followed up by aggression.
If the zerg took a fast expo at 7:00
If the zerg did roach drops at 8:00
And of course if the zerg does a 2 base baneling bust at 7:00
Another theme with your build is that it's focused around the midgame. You take a risk in the earlygame then build up a sizable force to defend~but in doing that you heavily delay taking a third. So your 13:00 minute push really needs to do damage.
Sorry if I sound like a debby downer - I do really respect your plays Griff; but I just don't think it's for me.
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I just realised how good this opening is TvP. I was struggling past days tvp and with this timing attack you can easily trade armies costeffective on most map (sentry's!). This build can set you up for a very strong midgame TvP where you can denie Toss third while taking one yourself. Tried it twice and worked very well (1500 master). It strikes after 2 gate robo first collosus timing i think, but you can handle one collosus, and than his gateway count will be low. I think this is a better TvP build than TvZ.
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I think this build is fine (to mix in a bo3 set) as long as you scout really really well against kyrix busts. I wouldn't do this build every time though, because it can be blind countered.
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Do we ever get ravens in this style?/build
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On June 28 2011 19:09 link0 wrote:
I think this build is fine (to mix in a bo3 set) as long as you scout really really well against kyrix busts. I wouldn't do this build every time though, because it can be blind countered.
how do you scout 'very well' ?
You're blind for the first 10 minutes against good Zergs.
You have to get some fast units to get some information against quick Speedlings
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Make OC and 1 marine before CC, it's better really. The marine can scare away the drone and keep Z in the dark more about your intentions, if you show you're not making a marine early Z can drone up too easily and T can't keep up with Z in economy then (unlike P who can with double nexus).
Delaying the OC is also bad, the gains of having OC faster outweigh having the CC a bit earlier.
On the maps where you want to do this strat you can often go CC at the natural straight away with this strat, your method of doing it doesn't really allow that as you don't have an early marine with it.
Make marine, scare away scout, float rax to second wall in (tal darim or shakuras), make CC at natural then make rax #2 and #3 along with supply depot #2 at second wall-in. Not having to float over the CC more then pays for having the CC a little bit later.
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its good build, but i dont really like opening, you give zerg to much free time to do whatever he wants, it will feel like coun flip. I think you can do 2rax presure opening into this. It will let you to know what hes doing, will let you have as good or better economy than zerg(depending how your presure went). Not to mention you will be improving faster, since you start heavy multitasking from game beggining(control marines + expand, macro base ).
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Thanks alot for this guide It helped alot.
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2 rax pressure into 9 minute marauder/marine timing into 12 minute 4 tank push used by supernova against check is extremely similar to this. I suggest you check it out. This build, if known by the zerg player, is weak because the zerg has a lot of "free" time where they can do anything.
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On June 28 2011 18:36 Diderick wrote:
I just realised how good this opening is TvP. I was struggling past days tvp and with this timing attack you can easily trade armies costeffective on most map (sentry's!). This build can set you up for a very strong midgame TvP where you can denie Toss third while taking one yourself. Tried it twice and worked very well (1500 master). It strikes after 2 gate robo first collosus timing i think, but you can handle one collosus, and than his gateway count will be low. I think this is a better TvP build than TvZ.
This is actually a really good idea.
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WOW. I like this very much. Fits my play style very well. This is definitely going to be my new standard TvZ. Thanks a ton.
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On June 28 2011 21:42 Nocteo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 18:36 Diderick wrote:
I just realised how good this opening is TvP. I was struggling past days tvp and with this timing attack you can easily trade armies costeffective on most map (sentry's!). This build can set you up for a very strong midgame TvP where you can denie Toss third while taking one yourself. Tried it twice and worked very well (1500 master). It strikes after 2 gate robo first collosus timing i think, but you can handle one collosus, and than his gateway count will be low. I think this is a better TvP build than TvZ. This is actually a really good idea.
Ofcouse BO is slighly different, you have to go early OC and Marine, and can't wall on bottom, and need bunker earlier, but idea is similar.
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Will try this build... but the problem i see is, no pressure on the zerg fe? You're first pressure comes at 9 minutes which basically gives zerg plenty of time to drone up like mad.
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On June 28 2011 18:36 Diderick wrote:
I just realised how good this opening is TvP. I was struggling past days tvp and with this timing attack you can easily trade armies costeffective on most map (sentry's!). This build can set you up for a very strong midgame TvP where you can denie Toss third while taking one yourself. Tried it twice and worked very well (1500 master). It strikes after 2 gate robo first collosus timing i think, but you can handle one collosus, and than his gateway count will be low. I think this is a better TvP build than TvZ.
what about 4 gate? and obviously you transition into standard mmm vikings + ghosts?
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When walling at the bottom like you suggest how do you stop the initial drone scout sniping your SCV building the rax? It seems like you either have to delay a little and halt the building and attack the drone before he gets a hit in (you have to be super aware), or hope that your SCV spends enough time on the safe side of the walloff.
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On June 29 2011 12:20 zergrushkekeke wrote:
When walling at the bottom like you suggest how do you stop the initial drone scout sniping your SCV building the rax? It seems like you either have to delay a little and halt the building and attack the drone before he gets a hit in (you have to be super aware), or hope that your SCV spends enough time on the safe side of the walloff.
Halt and fight off the drone to get the first hit while pulling a second SCV to finish the rax - very easy to micro against. It doesn't matter if you are delaying your rax - you are not rushing OC or marines.
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I don't think this is a 1 rax done right without that early marine. You could get beat by a 6 pool. I am guessing if you are so econ focused you aren't scouting before your wall is up. and that extra distance hurts as does not having the sight advantage against early roaches.
Also it doesn't work on all maps, or any GSL maps with the depot at the bottom.
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On June 29 2011 11:11 mols0n wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 18:36 Diderick wrote:
I just realised how good this opening is TvP. I was struggling past days tvp and with this timing attack you can easily trade armies costeffective on most map (sentry's!). This build can set you up for a very strong midgame TvP where you can denie Toss third while taking one yourself. Tried it twice and worked very well (1500 master). It strikes after 2 gate robo first collosus timing i think, but you can handle one collosus, and than his gateway count will be low. I think this is a better TvP build than TvZ. what about 4 gate? and obviously you transition into standard mmm vikings + ghosts?
4 Gate is easy to stop with 1 rax fe if you keep cc in base. 2 bunkers is enough usually if you walled of.
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Awesome thanks for this guide - 1raxfe is definitely my favourite build and this will help me refine it
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What about tournaments? Low ground wall off is not viable. How much does this affect the build?
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10 Depot (bottom ramp)
12 Rax[1] (bottom ramp, do not make marines until 18 supply)
With this, is meant to block the ramp on the bottom? or just build them in a line parallel to your oc?
Because I thought you can't block the bottom ramp with 2 buildings anymore
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On June 29 2011 18:48 nface wrote:
10 Depot (bottom ramp)
12 Rax[1] (bottom ramp, do not make marines until 18 supply)
With this, is meant to block the ramp on the bottom? or just build them in a line parallel to your oc?
Because I thought you can't block the bottom ramp with 2 buildings anymore
you can try it
what i'm more concerned about is the advice to proxy an scv somewhere and move it in at 6 mins+ to scout. more often than not it will see nothing. a lot depends on blind luck such as scanning the sling mass (or any other tell-tale signs) that may or may not happen in time to defend adequately.
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On June 29 2011 18:48 nface wrote:
10 Depot (bottom ramp)
12 Rax[1] (bottom ramp, do not make marines until 18 supply)
With this, is meant to block the ramp on the bottom? or just build them in a line parallel to your oc?
Because I thought you can't block the bottom ramp with 2 buildings anymore
I think it depends on the map. The tourney maps with the depot can't be blocked. If you can get it down, you can deny a 6 pool but not the bling bust follow us.
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You should really change the opening build order or change the thread title. This isn't the way any pro Terrans 1 Rax FE. MKP, MMA, Bomber, NaDa, and everyone else I've seen always do it like this:
15 OC, Marine
16 CC
17 Depot
I don't get why you'd skip your first marine and delay your OC by nearly a minute just to start the CC 5-10 seconds earlier, it's riskier and less economical than doing the standard 1 Rax FE. The standard way also allows you to punish FE Zerg with marine+bunker.
It's also standard to wall at the top of ramp, not bottom. Your first Marine can often deny the drone scout, and this will make you safer against Roach aggression and other builds people mentioned.
None of those games were on ladder, and they were all on Xel'Naga Caverns, one of the few maps where the starting Overlord can't scout anything. None of them seemed to respond correctly either.
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griffith, thanks again for another sweet post :D
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Really nice guide. As others have said, this would benefit from a stronger opening. I would recommend watching Bomber vs Xlord game on metalopolis from the Summer Dreamhack tournament (group stages). That game might help you improve your build.
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This is what I have been doing exclusively in tvz for about a month now, 12-1300 masters here. Works wonders at my level and I can go for either 0/3 hellion thor off two base or a standard marine medivac tank army. Really fun and nice guide for others
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On June 29 2011 23:19 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 18:48 nface wrote:
10 Depot (bottom ramp)
12 Rax[1] (bottom ramp, do not make marines until 18 supply)
With this, is meant to block the ramp on the bottom? or just build them in a line parallel to your oc?
Because I thought you can't block the bottom ramp with 2 buildings anymore I think it depends on the map. The tourney maps with the depot can't be blocked. If you can get it down, you can deny a 6 pool but not the bling bust follow us.
No you can't. If they snipe the depot, you have no other depot. He isn't doing 16 depot. Therefore, if they snipe the depot, you lose. They just run around you base until they get more slings or bane tech
None of those games were on ladder, and they were all on Xel'Naga Caverns, one of the few maps where the starting Overlord can't scout anything. None of them seemed to respond correctly either.
Exactly. No ladder games, just random customs posting only the games it works. Same map, same everything. No randomness of ladder. Do a bo3 series with a equal level zerg and run it 2-3 times in a row.
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From my experience, this strategy is good but totally fails against a 2 base aggressive  zerg
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I like your build and the games I have watched have tought me a lot. thank you. I was wondering why you prefer 1 rax expand over 2 rax expand though.
It is more economical I know, in pure form, but I think that in practice the aggression in 2rax would make up for it.
I understand the purpose of the walloff at bottom and the zerg shouldn't really even be able to tell if it is a 2 rax or anything else. You could wall at bottom and rush banshee and Z be none the wiser until overlord scout (or some kind of engagement).
I think that because in tournamnet settings you cant wall bottom, so it is kind of a ladder "cheese". (just the wall at bottom opening).
I appreciate your work and I would like more replays if you have them
Edit:specifically I really loved your tank placement and turret placement. Kind of using them to zone the Zerg.
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Nice build and guide to it! Shall be testing it today. Already had 2 successful games with it.
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cheers,
Thank you for posting this. Really helps us lower tear players. Mass marine\medi with a constant pressure great. poor zerg lava blocks and dies. I found a chap called halby on utube. love his take on this.
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EPT
