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[D] & [G] TvT Terran Nuclear Tactics

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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DrLOAC
Profile Joined May 2011
United States53 Posts
June 16 2011 22:09 GMT
#1

Do you want to play a game?


WARNING: This is a guide written by a low level player, me, DrLOAC. The timings in the replays will probably not apply to most of you reading this due to the horrible macro on both sides of the game. However the situations and tactics described here should occur and be useful in many TvT and even TvX games at any level. So if you aren't scared off read on!

Purpose
+ Show Spoiler +

A guide and discussion for tactics on making the most of your nukes


About Me
+ Show Spoiler +
I am a bronze level Terran player who has been playing SC2 since last Christmas. I have a pretty busy schedule and maybe get to play 3 ladder games a week. In bronze you tend to see some very weird play due to the capabilities or lack there of, of those of us in the lower leagues. I've tended to try very different builds apart from the standard MMM or marine/tank.

As it turns out I really enjoy using ghosts and nukes. It may have something to do with getting over 40 kills with a single ghost in my first 1v1 placement game through blind luck.

So why should you listen to me? I've used ghosts and nukes in tons of situations and found a few key tactics to successfully pulling off damaging attacks with nukes.


Pro's and Cons of Nukes
+ Show Spoiler +
So how are most users using nukes these days? In looking through TL SC2 Strategy the answer is generally we aren't. If nukes are mentioned it's as an after thought to getting ghosts for specific reason like snipping against T3 Zerg or EMPing HT & Infestors.
The only real tactical somewhat regularly mentioned is maybe using a nuke to force a siege tank line to break, but that's about it.

The reasons for this are fairly obvious:
Cons
- Gas expensive tech chain to just reach ghosts, let alone nukes & cloak
- 20 Second cast time - the entire time the ghost is stationary and vulnerable.
- High likelihood the ghost will be killed
- Low likelihood that any units targeted will actually still be there in 20s.
- 300 unit damage / 500 building damage is powerful but not enough to destroy many T3 units or tougher structures

Now Let's look at the pros for nukes:
Pros
- All T1 & T2 units in the main blast zone will die / T3 over 50% damaged
- All of the following structures will die in a direct nuclear strike - Terran: Supply Depots, Bunkers, Add-Ons, Refineries, Missile Turret, Sensor Tower; Protoss: Pylon, Assimilator, Photon Cannon; Zerg: Extractor, Spine Crawler, Spore Crawler, Creep Tumor.
- Range of 10
- Blast diameter of 8!
[image loading]


Proposed Nuclear Tactics
+ Show Spoiler +

Or how I learned to stop worrying and love the bomb


The goal of the nuke is to give ourselves a sudden tactical advantage through massive damage to units, production facilities, economy, or defenses

This leads us to the first step:
1) Choosing your target

So right of the bat we notice some interesting things looking at the pros & cons. First, the list of buildings destroyed by a direct nuke strike are the same buildings used by every race to wall-in! Second for Terran and Protoss the nuke can destroy quite a bit of supply depending on base arrangement. Lastly the nuke also kills all T1 and T2 units that all the races use to make up a death ball. These are your targets

The other option is the defensive nuke, where we use the nuke to buy 20seconds of attack time for our other units, such as when we use it to break a siege line or force our opponent back while we attack an expo.

To make any nuke worth while we should target any set of units or structures worth more than 100/100 :
Wall-ins
Clumped Supply or defensive structures
Death Balls
Defensive play

Or the nuke provides us a measurable tactical advantage.

2) Setting up the shot

Setting up the shot is all about two things:
Protecting Your Ghost
&
Manipulating Your Opponent


The first way to protect your ghost is to use the range of the nuke.

The targeting range of 10 is excellent, but when coupled with the 4 radius, a nuke can hit targets almost 14 away! This out-ranges every offensive unit including sieged tanks. It also out ranges all defensive structures and detection:

Terran bunkers
Protoss cannons
Zerg Wall-O-Crawl

To maximize range, scan or use another units vision of the target area before dropping the nuke and don't be greedy. Hit defensive structures at the far end of the blast radius. Your opponent will have a harder time finding your ghost, cloaked or not, and will have to make the choice to run his units all the way though the blast diameter to engage.

Which brings us to the next tip to protect and manipulate:
Always attempt to place the nuke between your ghost and the likeliest avenue of attack

You want to force your opponent to decide if he should attack through the nuke or back off his units giving you free reign for duration of the nuke. Placing the nuke between your ghost and the enemy units is easy if you are attacking a death ball or early wall-in but it's quite different if you don't know where his army is and your target is in between expos.
In those cases start by scouting. Scout scout scout! Always have an idea where your opponents forces are. It's important so you can manipulate your opponent into moving his army where you want it. Multi-prong attacks are an excellent way to do this and get "bang" for your nuclear buck. They force your opponent out of position and increase the likelihood of a hit. See example in the replay section

When targeting death balls you must force your opponent into the blast area. The best way is late game when you both have 100+ supply armies. Threaten an open expansion with the nuke and force your opponent to fight in the blast radius.

3) During the shot
Are you ready for some football!


Always bring along other units to defend your ghost

During the shot always treat your ghost like a quarterback. Keep him in a "pocket" of other units. This "defensive line" should be placed between the ghost and enemy units. Even 6 marines with a ghost drop can mean holding off a counter attack for success instead of failure.

With smart placement of your "defensive line" at the edge of the blast zone you can do damage to the target while containing a counter attack in the blast zone by abusing the attack AI. Especially if your opponent "A" moves. Units on attack will stop to engage your defensive line - right in the blast zone. Otherwise to focus down the ghost he must normal move through the blast zone, around your defensive units, and engage the ghost in less than 20s. If he decides not to attack then you have 20s to do damage with your now "offensive line", plus the nuke. Combining this with a multi-prong attack can be devastating both targets and his army. This applies to medivac ghost drops, wall-in attacks, or multi-prong attacks

A second ghost can make a good addition to your defensive line as their snipe and EMP abilities have good range at 10 for softening up attacking units.

Only cancel the nuke if your going to win the engagement without it or if your ghost comes under direct fire. Remember to pull out your units right before the nuke hits if you've been dragged into the blast zone

When attacking a death ball in late-game with 100+ supply armies. Your entire army is the defensive line. Bury the ghost in the ball and drop the nuke on a target that will force a confrontation, such as an open expo. With your ghost nestled in a large ball it's hard for your opponent to focus him down especially when you generally have air cover as well. Your opponent can either fight you in the blast zone or dis-engage. If you fight pull your forces back as the nuke hits to drag as many of his units into the blast zone.

Nuclear Jujitsu
One last tactic that can be employed by any race is to use the nuke against the one who lauched it. If your opponent has launched a nuke at you one option is to engage his forces, (if any, but if he doesn't have any you should just the kill the ghost ) at the edge of the nuke. When the nuke is close to hitting retreat and his forces should follow you into the blast zone forcing a cancel or loss of his units. This works well with slower high hit point units like T3 or Terran flying buildings.


Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +

cfestivals Ghost Nuke Push build order is a great one for getting a nuke and mix of units early in the game. I credit this build with helping me find many of these interesting ways of using nukes. Here's the build order but check out the thread at the link for more nuke goodness.
Build Order
10 Supply (send to scout, leave outside enemy base to scout for push outs)
12 Barracks
13 Gas
15 Orbital
15 Marine (send to ramp)
16 Gas
16 Supply (also builds Ghost Academy)
16 Marine (send to ramp)
18 Ghost Academy
18 Tech Lab (Barracks)
19 Barracks
20 Ghost
23 Supply (also builds Factory)
23 Ghost
25 Tech Lab (Barracks)
25 Factory
25/27 Marauders (2)
**PUSH OUT (or wait for reapers and push)**
31/32 Reapers (2)
33 NUKE (should start at around 6:30 for right timing)
33 Hellion
Build tech lab on Factory after the hellion comes out.



Replays!
+ Show Spoiler +


Death Ball World War III
[image loading]
In this TvT replay on Shakuras I drop a nuke around the 40:00 mark during a pitched battle. I launched against his exposed expo which precipitated the battle. The nuke was in front of my army and the ghost was protected towards the rear of my army. He get's the worst out of the deal.

The Radioactive Turtle
[image loading]
[image loading]

In these two replays you can see how an early nuke can clear out a defensive wall-in and even out range sieged tanks!

The Deception with Reaper Madness(TM) & Nuclear Drop
[image loading]
In this replay (around 12:00) I wanted to attack his natural which was protected by his army. Using a multi-prong attack I sent a small force of reapers in to the rear of his main for a little Reaper Madness(TM). Once his units moved into his main to engage I moved in to the expo with two ghosts and some marines. I scanned and dropped the nuke on the ramp, placing it between my ghost and his army at max range. My forces attacked the natural while he was forced to decide if he should defend the natural or kill the reapers and then attack through the nuke or wait it out. The results were very satisfying at around 84 kills for the entire attack

I say we take off and nuke the entire site from (the) Orbit(al). It's the only way to be sure.


Later (around 26:00) in this replay you can see a ghost drop to punish some OCD supply depo layouts. He loses over 60 supply in the nuke and follow up attack.

Nuclear Jujitsu
[image loading]
In this replay (around1:08:00) I didn't even drop the nuke. Abusing the AI after he nuclear drops on me I fly my Orbital just far enough that his remaining forces auto attack into the blast zone!



Well I hope you enjoyed this post. Please let me know what you think, and how you use or defend against nukes. (I'll even take some macro/micro pointers )
51.6 @ 17500mph
homeless_guy
Profile Joined June 2005
United States321 Posts
June 16 2011 22:23 GMT
#2
5 Stars for Effort.
DrLOAC
Profile Joined May 2011
United States53 Posts
June 16 2011 22:26 GMT
#3
Thanks!

But I detected a but there.....

51.6 @ 17500mph
NighT1133
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom86 Posts
June 16 2011 22:31 GMT
#4
Well the "but" is you are bronze and it probably wont work at higher leagues which the majority of teamliquid are in.
Fun fun fun and it's not even Friday.
Midgetman101
Profile Joined February 2011
United States825 Posts
June 16 2011 22:32 GMT
#5
Very nice guide haha
~Terran For Life~
Midgetman101
Profile Joined February 2011
United States825 Posts
June 16 2011 22:34 GMT
#6
On June 17 2011 07:31 NighT1133 wrote:
Well the "but" is you are bronze and it probably wont work at higher leagues which the majority of teamliquid are in.

Who cares really. This is a fun guide for those of us who love nuclear warfare. It doesn't matter how viable it is
~Terran For Life~
NighT1133
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom86 Posts
June 16 2011 22:36 GMT
#7
On June 17 2011 07:34 Midgetman101 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2011 07:31 NighT1133 wrote:
Well the "but" is you are bronze and it probably wont work at higher leagues which the majority of teamliquid are in.

Who cares really. This is a fun guide for those of us who love nuclear warfare. It doesn't matter how viable it is


Yeah i know i'm just responding to "I get the feeling there is a but in there."

Im not denying its a well thought out and well written guide
Fun fun fun and it's not even Friday.
DrLOAC
Profile Joined May 2011
United States53 Posts
June 16 2011 22:41 GMT
#8
No problem, I figured that's what the but was. I enjoy the site so I wanted to contribute.
51.6 @ 17500mph
DrLOAC
Profile Joined May 2011
United States53 Posts
June 16 2011 23:45 GMT
#9
On June 17 2011 07:31 NighT1133 wrote:
Well the "but" is you are bronze and it probably wont work at higher leagues which the majority of teamliquid are in.


Well I will point out that the tactics should apply to improving the nuke hit rate at any level. Unfortunately I can only try it at the bronze level.

Anyone use nukes at higher levels? What tactics do use?
51.6 @ 17500mph
MrInocence
Profile Joined February 2010
United States172 Posts
June 17 2011 01:47 GMT
#10
On June 17 2011 08:45 DrLOAC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2011 07:31 NighT1133 wrote:
Well the "but" is you are bronze and it probably wont work at higher leagues which the majority of teamliquid are in.


Well I will point out that the tactics should apply to improving the nuke hit rate at any level. Unfortunately I can only try it at the bronze level.

Anyone use nukes at higher levels? What tactics do use?


mostly to force army movement, to defend a location, to force worker movement.

The nuke does everything besides actually hit its target.
MrInocence, Monday, 1st of March 2010 - Tuesday, 2nd of October 2015
antilyon
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Brazil2546 Posts
June 17 2011 03:19 GMT
#11
Good guide, too bad not so many players try(can) to incorporate nukes in their gameplay, compared to BW they are so much easier to use...

Probably, any high level terran know the pros of a well-placed nuke in TvT, but there's so much to think while you play, that make it too hard to incorporate nukes in your gameplay.
DrLOAC
Profile Joined May 2011
United States53 Posts
June 17 2011 03:36 GMT
#12
On June 17 2011 12:19 antilyon wrote:
Good guide, too bad not so many players try(can) to incorporate nukes in their gameplay, compared to BW they are so much easier to use...

Probably, any high level terran know the pros of a well-placed nuke in TvT, but there's so much to think while you play, that make it too hard to incorporate nukes in your gameplay.



That's why I wrote the guide. I'm finding that as I get more proficient with them I can make up for poor macro - because lets face it a nuke takes out a lot units/structures.


Even watching pro matches it seems like the only player to even attempt to use them is TLO.
51.6 @ 17500mph
StinkyNinja
Profile Joined March 2011
United States4 Posts
June 17 2011 06:26 GMT
#13
You might find some interest in this post:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=217837
Uh, Winning
DrLOAC
Profile Joined May 2011
United States53 Posts
June 17 2011 12:15 GMT
#14
[QUOTE]On June 17 2011 15:26 StinkyNinja wrote:
You might find some interest in this post:


That it is a great thread - which is why I had already linked to it in the Build Order portion.
51.6 @ 17500mph
Devlawl
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia122 Posts
June 17 2011 13:09 GMT
#15
Nice post, you've made me want to use ghosts again in my play!

I used to do a nuke rush vs zerg a lot at plat-diamond level which worked quite well. I made a thread and posted a few replays if you want to check it out:

Ghost/marine/hellion/nuke Opening in TvZ
Life is cruel and then you die.
Fyrewolf
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1533 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-17 13:17:59
June 17 2011 13:11 GMT
#16
This is an interesting post, and any skill level can benefit from basic tactics and positioning. But I wish you would have talked about some other features of nukes, such as the idea of an attention sink.

Once that warning alarm goes off, the opponent has to drop what they are focusing on and focus on not getting nuked. It forces their attention. Attacking and nuking in different places are so effective, because the nuker can have less to pay attention to, the opponent has to actually look for a nuke and reposition. Or ignore the warning and get nuked, which is too costly to be an option.

When not TvT, scouting for his detection can really help too, even without a nuke taking out an observer or overseer usually sets back the opponent if they didn't make multiple mobile detectors, in addition to the unit costs. 20 seconds is a decent channel time, but with army support and when he doesn't have detection in the area it's almost hopeless to try to stop it on Blizzard's time scale(20 sec is still not that long in real time).

Anyways, great post. It doesn't take a grandmaster to understand tactics (just to execute them perfectly), and anyone at any skill level can benefit from understanding. Keep on dropping the hammer and dispensing indiscriminate justice, DrLOAC!!
"This is not Warcraft in space" "It's much more...... Sophisticated" "I KNOW IT'S NOT 3D!!!"
Eleaven
Profile Joined September 2010
772 Posts
June 17 2011 13:32 GMT
#17
Maybe if nuke range was longer than tank range.. as it is.. one scan and you instantly lose your ghost to the sieged tanks.

AgentSmith
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada91 Posts
June 17 2011 14:06 GMT
#18
On June 17 2011 08:45 DrLOAC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2011 07:31 NighT1133 wrote:
Well the "but" is you are bronze and it probably wont work at higher leagues which the majority of teamliquid are in.


Well I will point out that the tactics should apply to improving the nuke hit rate at any level. Unfortunately I can only try it at the bronze level.

Anyone use nukes at higher levels? What tactics do use?

I am a gold terran, And I use a cloaked ghost for nukes without support, mainly on mineral lines and clusters of sieged tanks. In most cases, the nuke wont hit the sieged tanks, but can get them to unsieged which I then use to stim forward and siege up.
I only use nukes TvT
I'm a total noob!
pandaminion
Profile Joined October 2010
United States270 Posts
June 17 2011 14:19 GMT
#19
I think the point about Nukes being potentially 14 range was a good insight, probably something most Terrans have never considered. Seeing how Tanks are only 12 range, they can potentially be used to break tank lines and/or create more favorable positionings (TLO vs Hyperdub, anyone?)
Devlawl
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia122 Posts
June 17 2011 14:20 GMT
#20
On June 17 2011 22:32 Eleaven wrote:
Maybe if nuke range was longer than tank range.. as it is.. one scan and you instantly lose your ghost to the sieged tanks.



It is longer than tank range since the nuke range is 10 and the blast radius is 4 meaning the nuke effectively has a max range of 14, whilst the tank range is 13. You may not kill the entire tank line but you can force a lot of unsieging which you can take advantage of by stimming in with your bio force while cancelling the nuke.
Life is cruel and then you die.
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