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Hi TL!
(I am a Diamond Player with 1,4k points (rank 2 my division, almost masters league)
A few days ago I met a Terran who opening bunker into hellions into thor&tank.
How to deal with it? After seeing him opening i went for the Roachwarren and about 5 Roaches. Then i scouted 3 factories and went for Pure Roach + NP Infestor.
I thought this unit composition beats Tank/Thor.
But Roaches are actually very weak against Tanks arent they?
And I cant use NP if he spreads out his tanks so if my infestors try to reach a tank for NP they get killed by the other 5 siege tanks. Roaches obviously died aswell against it:/
I got several Questions now,
1) What is the counter unit of Zerg for Siegetanks?
A: I guess Broodlords.
2) How to deal with Siegetank contains while the Terran gets more
and more Expansions up?
A: Mutas or Roaches i thought
About the Replay and the game itself, I guess I did HUGE!! mistakes which contains:
-too less drones
-bad OL spread
-bad macro
-bad start (responding to the bunkers wayyyyy!! too late)
-too less expansions
Replay:![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-215379.jpg)
Dont be afraid of telling me my mistakes, i can only improve off of this!
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pure roach is good against pure thor, not if tanks are mixed up. generally the way to deal with tanks: attack before they siege up (creep helps a lot), attack elsewhere (if they contain, counter attack with fast units) or just have a shiton of units to overwhelm them.
also if they contain cut the reinforcement line with fast units.
late game 15+tanks you will need broods or ultras or an insanely big surface to attack,
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There is no direct way to deal with sieged up tanks by ground. They're the best ground to ground unit in the game when it comes to DPS so never attack a sieged up tank by ground unless you are like 50 food ahead. You have to counter attack, or attack when they are unsieged with a mass. Attack from different directions. Roaches are good against siege tanks because they have so much HP aswell as lings are so fast to get up to siege tanks.
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i have faced recently faced a similar strategy in low masters using broods, speedling, roach, and about 8 infestors to neural. It seems rather ineffective so id wonder about a very strong muta style play, i guess i just gotta be more bold with mutas (usually afraid to box even individual thors just cause...) This is purely theory but with the lower marine count, perhaps heavy upgraded mutas (armor first) in vast numbers with light speedling/infestor supply (id say roach/infestor but that seems way to costly)
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What I would recommend against mech play is expand like crazy, drone SUPER hard. Like 90 drones, and get tons of queens for injects. Keep up the roach infestor thing and make sure to get burrow and burrow move. Then, try as best you can to contain. Drop roaches in his main while flanking to his natural or third. Upgrade fast, all the while teching to broodlords. Also, I would recommend adding in some lings to be a little meathshield against the tanks. Besides they will splash their own tanks if the lings get in range. Also, drop infested terrans while burrowed on to the tanks. It can be very effective.
Also as a sidenote, I saw in 1 game, this guy went roach baneling and put tons and tons of banelings into ovies and dropped onto the mech. while they were moving out. (while moving, the tanks, helions, and thors will most likely be clumped) The splash made them super effective. It's like dropping on a deathball. It's not the cheapest way, but it sure will kill everything the protoss has including collossus if you have enough banelings. Good luck!
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The major weakness of siege tanks is their immobility.
Harass EVERYWHERE. Mutas, drops, hit their naturals. The siege tanks need to be together and supporting each other to be effective. All the while, you should be expanding and teching to BL's and supporting with Mutas to protect against the vikings. Mobility is your friend against tanks. Hit where he isn't. And if it comes down to it, base race him. He's too slow and hopefully you have for more bases than him.
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a cheap way is burrow move roaches next to seige tanks. or burrowed infestor and FG or infested terran. if they have detection then Broodlords + healing queens in the rear like Spanishiwa
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Tanks beat infestors, so yeah. If he has more than a few tanks, don't expect your Infestors to do much unless he gets impatient or uncareful with his Thors and lets them run up ahead of the Tanks too much (in which you can fungal or NP them without being shelled by Tanks in 1 hit).
A lot of well positioned tanks beat Roaches, but Roaches are still cost efficient, just not food efficient. But they are good enough that you can mass. With Tank/Thor composition you'll need Brood Lords like you said.
Siege Tank contains? He shouldn't be able to get one on you, unless if the map is split evenly. If he does, then there's not much you can do but mass a last hope army and try to bust through.
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In your game you were behind by around 6 workers after the initial bunker attack. You evened the count briefly, but by the time he had his third (at the gold), his advantage was about 15 workers (+mules) while your own third. So, by being so far behind in economy, it can be pretty tough to come back against a mech heavy style like that.
I remember two engagements when you attacked him using roach infestor. In the first one, you had tons of roaches and 4 infestors which you didn't use at all. I think that was a poor place to attack, as you were going deep into his territory with tanks already sieged. I think NP would have been helpful had you used it, but overall it was not a good place to attack as you lost all your roaches while already behind in economy.
The second fight, you did get 2-3 neural parasites and I think it would have been pretty good if you had a few more roaches to clean up. With neural parasites and tanks, it's actually better when the tanks are spread, as you can capture the ones on the edge without dying instantly. When the tanks are clustered together, their concentrated firepower will instantly kill infestors that go into range for NP, so it is much harder to do that. Something else that works vs tanks is the infested terran spell. If you burrow move your infestor forward and toss some eggs at his tanks, he might do splash damage to himself at the cost of some mana.
If you elect to tech to brood lords, one thing you can do is throw many spine crawlers out on your creep. Sure, he can kill them easily enough, but you had tons of minerals to spare and it slows his tank push by forcing him to siege up to kill them. This buys you more time to get the brood lords out. Since you were going to use the brood lords defensively, you can also get extra queens, as they can transfuse and defend against vikings. Infestor/queen/brood lord/spines is a very strong defensive combo
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On June 16 2011 08:20 Terminator(471) wrote:
What I would recommend against mech play is expand like crazy, drone SUPER hard. Like 90 drones, and get tons of queens for injects. Keep up the roach infestor thing and make sure to get burrow and burrow move. Then, try as best you can to contain. Drop roaches in his main while flanking to his natural or third. Upgrade fast, all the while teching to broodlords. Also, I would recommend adding in some lings to be a little meathshield against the tanks. Besides they will splash their own tanks if the lings get in range. Also, drop infested terrans while burrowed on to the tanks. It can be very effective.
Also as a sidenote, I saw in 1 game, this guy went roach baneling and put tons and tons of banelings into ovies and dropped onto the mech. while they were moving out. (while moving, the tanks, helions, and thors will most likely be clumped) The splash made them super effective. It's like dropping on a deathball. It's not the cheapest way, but it sure will kill everything the protoss has including collossus if you have enough banelings. Good luck!
Jesus, I tend to have the same problem as this guy but it sounds like your recommending you outplay the fuck out of the Terran. I'm not saying its bad advice, but I wish there was an easier solution.
Has anyone else had any luck doing drops similar to this (or more like"zealot bombs" from sc1)? AFAIK, if he only has thors for AA, the attacks won't be too effective against overlords since they're not classified as light (at least i don't think...)
Forgive the noobishness of the post if its a dumb question, I'm only Gold Division
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This will prolly get me a ban or something....
but have you tried burrow? :D
ALSO, mass mutalisks and just magic box? if hes going pure mech and no marines to support thors..... mutas are the answer honestly.
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Zylog the first engagement with the 4 infestors was very poor indeed.
First i thought the position is good because he would think i come directly into the front instead of flanking and attacking him out of the gras.
BUT he had vision into this area. AND my NP wasnt ready. and yhea as i've said i failed pretty badly due to the bunkers. i also didnt mine gas at the gold. and i never reached 60+ drones, very poor play by me there.
Someone said i should mass expand. but if he attacks me meanwhile i have no standing army and he crushes my new bases.
I also had 1k gas and minerals so i guess 10 mutas would have been nice to clean it up ( especially because i think they can deal with 1 thor)
anyway i guess Roach/Muta into broodlord/infestor is the right way to go. but only mining off of 4-6 gas doesnt work, because it is too gas intensive.
Next time i try to nydus his main and kill off the factories, he either unsieges or he pushes.
(Infested Terran should be used aswell! *remember this next time*
Thanks for the advices so far, maybe better ones will come to it.
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try suiciding some lings/roach to get the first round tank splash then run all your units in. It can help minimize losses before your units actually get to attack the siege. Always hotkey youre mutas (if you are using them) and pick off the rear siege. I hope this helps.
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mech is really easy to deal with, just get upgraded roaches and get DROP tech. Mass roach with drops work really well, with 4 geysers you can do mass roach drop with +1 and +2. you can even work in infestors at 3 base with 6 geysers up and running. I have a ton of replays against this style, maybe i'll upload.
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On June 16 2011 09:43 ChiKenSouP wrote:
This will prolly get me a ban or something....
but have you tried burrow? :D
ALSO, mass mutalisks and just magic box? if hes going pure mech and no marines to support thors..... mutas are the answer honestly.
Try not to martyr yourself.
I've recently lost to something similar and it's tough to do especially when the map is Shattered Temple; I think there is no easy solution except to drastically outplay the Terran player. Sucks, for the time being.
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The strength in mech lies within its raw power. It's weakness is its mobility. Exploit that weakness. Go for counter attacks, drops, mass expand harass style. Mech should honestly be easy to deal with unless the zerg is stubborn enough to try and break through a straight up fight.
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On June 16 2011 08:25 Zergling4life wrote:I have a very similar question! I just played a game where a Terran pushed by slowly advancing his Siege Tanks. I have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter this. I know its possible but I had no idea how. Can anyone help? Replay below and and any other tips would be rly nice! :D ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-215381.jpg)
Don't jack other peoples threads...
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pause the replay right at 15 minutes and look at your resources.
2700 minerals 1100 gas 90/164 supply.
I think that's where you should be looking. This was compounded by the fact that he canceled your 3rd with a small army you could easily kill, so if you defend your third you're better off, but still look at how to spend that money in advance. double evo? Macro hatch or double, even triple expand? Upgrades like burrow/tunnel/drops?
Against mech you can expand to 3 oclock main, even 12 oclock main, and if he tries to attack it you immediately counter with your roaches, and have the economy to replace them, or even free up supply for higher tech.
A style I've seen Ret do against mech is to beast macro and upgrade overlord drops, max on roaches and doom drop the terran main as soon as the army is out of position, then remax.
As always, when engaging tanks, you need absurd surface area to minimize splash and minimize his range advantage. In the first big engagement before NP finished, you funneled all your roaches through the narrow pass below his cliff, so that your roaches were packed in a tight ball as they reached his tanks. Try spreading into at least three groups.
i still find the best solution is to get a good scout of his base with an overseer or a speed overlord, count the factories, and immediately rush towards hive while expanding. Broodlords prevent him from pushing, and broodlord/infestor/corruptor can deal with vikings.
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On June 16 2011 07:58 Syntaxs wrote:
About the Replay and the game itself, I guess I did HUGE!! mistakes which contains:
-too less drones
-bad OL spread
-bad macro
-bad start (responding to the bunkers wayyyyy!! too late)
-too less expansions
You listed the reasons why you lost yourself, so I don't really understand what you need us for. You were down almost 15 workers+mules at times, while floating over 2k minerals.
Building anything is better then nothing, and that's your problem. Your opponent was pretty much ahead of you on macro all game long and just had more stuff. Didn't help that you morphed all your corruptors into brood lords, so he could just kill them off with his vikings.
On the specific topic, siege tanks are immobile and ground only. The ways to combat that is to mass expand, play harras, get mutas and don't attack right into them. Abuse his lack of mobility. Brood lords is pretty much the best units to straight up counter siege tanks too, since they do so much friendly damage.
In your case, you should've expanded more, relaxed your hive, gotten more gas going and gotten mutas. Mutas are great vs just thors with no marine support and your opponent had zero infrastructure to get marines up. You were just too much all over the place with too little economy. You both attacked and teched, rather then drone and secure economy, and you also skimped on spending your resources.
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ALSO, mass mutalisks and just magic box? if hes going pure mech and no marines to support thors..... mutas are the answer honestly.
Only if he skimps on Thors. If half of his army cost is Thors, then the Muta vs Thor battle will still be equal.
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Burrow banelings to take out marines, drop banelings to take out tanks.
Plenty of counters, just need to take out marines first. Gets trickier if thors come though.
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Burrow banelings to take out marines, drop banelings to take out tanks.
Plenty of counters, just need to take out marines first. Gets trickier if thors come though.
There are no marines...
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I rely heavily on mutas, and lings which is where I generally find myself past 15 minutes. If I was in a situation which required me to attack thors and tanks I would hotkey my mutas, position my lings to attack and send them in after tanks have been dealt with or moments after the mutas engage, finally id use the mutas to exclusively attack the tanks. Thors make a mess of mutas so it really depends on the numbers involved.
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zerglings of just half the cost in total resources of a marine tank terran composition plus fungal growth rape it so bad i dont know what, unless you dont have zergling speed, but you're diamond so that doesn't make sense.
even without infestors, just rushing in a few microed speedlings will really kill sieged tanks very fast, some other lings can tank the marine hits for a bit.
tldr: speedlings against tanks are so good i dont know what.
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I wonder if ling infestor is better than roach infestor against tank/thor? Anyone know?
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Want to know the true counter? Well, that's just playing better.
As for unit composition, I definitely don't agree with roaches in the mid game. They just get destroyed by a good number of siege tanks with upgrades. Ling/muta is just better imo, or maybe some roaches mixed in as well, but if you get an overwhelming number of mutas and just magic box them that can work too. Lings are actually very good against tanks if you can just get to them fast enough and surround them if they don't have marines/helions to clean the lings up. Once it gets to the late game, brood lords obviously counter everything they have on the field and it should be an easy win as long as you have the economy.
Siege tanks are very good, but they also have their weaknesses. They're slow, and they require the person to be set up in place for them to be effective. If you catch them off guard while they're pushing and they're not sieged then you can seriously destroy them before they even get the chance to do anything.
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Destiny displayed a very interesting strategy on his stream yesterday in ZvT. His basic strategy was building up a significant count of infestors with highly upgraded slings and delay the push until Broods came into play. With 15+ (no kidding) infestors vikings become very easy to deal with and Broods counter everything on the ground. Ghosts are naturally a concern but with mass infestors it's kinda hard to EMP everything.
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I usually go for some infestors and get burrow tech. During the research time, pump lots of lings and banelings (more lings is better I think).
Once you have the burrow tech, burrow one or two infestors depending how much you can afford to lose, spawn some infested terran on their marines and tanks and immediately charge in with your lings and banelings.
the tanks will friendly fire his armies and also the infested terrans will kill off tanks quite easily.
If you have neural parasite, then you can put the infested terrans in the tanks closer to his base. and when the tank fires, charge in with your army while mind controlling the tanks at front.
I feel that transition to ultra is better than brood lord, simply because broodlords are too slow to move along with your army and you will need lots of infestors with high energy to protect the broodlords.
Just make sure you get the cracklings out when you have hive tech. they will be so useful in denying any expansions and counter attacks.
This infestor play however, is not as harassing as mutas, but infestors are much more useful in combat situations and also, they can drop infested terrans while you doing some lings runby on another base.
Not to mention this type of harassment cannot be denied just by missile turrets, and the infested terrans cost nothing of your side. 2 full energy infestors can do so much damage with the infested terran, even if his army comes and clean up
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Hmmm, it appears I am one of the few people that actually watched the replay. The reason you lost that game had absolutely nothing to do with counters, at the beginning of the game you were 15 drones to 20 scvs because of the bunker push, with a fast expo by terran on the way. If the terran did a somewhat standard 3 tank and about 20 marine stim push he would have crushed you easily.
The way you handled siege tanks in that game was quite good, and doesn't need to be changed, all you need to do is not get a huge disadvantage early game to beat meching players.
(I am referring to you as the OP, not just anyone can beat meching players  )
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Ignore heavy droning counts up to 80+ or anything that sounds gimmicky because 3 bases of drones and gas is still only 66-72. Be smart and realize that by the time you hit 4-5 bases you should Maynard from your first and second. Tanks in mech are different than Tanks in Bio. However, in either you can do the Infested Terran Tank-Splash strategy,(burrowed Infestors to throw IT's right next to the other tanks to get spash on each of them.) to lower their units to keep yourself ahead enough that Tanks are not so devestating. You may also bling-bomb to deal enough damage to their ground army to punch though (in theory...but if they have gone tanks I would expect Broods or Ultras by the time they got to my base and it was an unmanageable number of tanks) OR, the traditional Muta snipe, or Infestors NP'ing when the Marines come in to try to draw out your army. I am not claiming this is perfect, but, these plans can work under the umbrella of SC2 having hard counters, but no true answers. Otherwise, your mobile army can beat their mech army by having more expos as with drops
Furthermore, this is all situational, like any fight. Are there cliffs, air units, undetected units, etc. Marine tank can be beat with Infestor/Hive tech and some luck, Mech with tanks can be beat by a smart mobile army and expansions that they cannot attack while defending as you base up by 1-2.
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On June 16 2011 08:53 Dimentio wrote:
The major weakness of siege tanks is their immobility.
Harass EVERYWHERE. Mutas, drops, hit their naturals. The siege tanks need to be together and supporting each other to be effective. All the while, you should be expanding and teching to BL's and supporting with Mutas to protect against the vikings. Mobility is your friend against tanks. Hit where he isn't. And if it comes down to it, base race him. He's too slow and hopefully you have for more bases than him.
lol why do u wanna sound smart when u arent??
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On June 16 2011 16:08 Kraelog wrote:
Destiny displayed a very interesting strategy on his stream yesterday in ZvT. His basic strategy was building up a significant count of infestors with highly upgraded slings and delay the push until Broods came into play. With 15+ (no kidding) infestors vikings become very easy to deal with and Broods counter everything on the ground. Ghosts are naturally a concern but with mass infestors it's kinda hard to EMP everything.
hahahahah that is the brst TvZ strat IMO
only u dont need to make broods u can also go for ultras sine u upgrade lings heavily and ultralingfestor is quite and more mobile then broodlordinfestorcoruptor(which is a bit stronger)
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Definitely magicbox mutas if he has no mutas, but the risk is too great that he has at least one reactor rax worth of marines, so it's not something I would rely on unless I have a perfect scout of him and know he has almost no marines. (Anyone saying mutas don't work because of thors are wrong. The push isn't going to come 30 minutes into the game, it's not like the terran has 10+ thors and even then, it's a thor/tank push, tanks do NOTHING against mutas so it's pure wasted supply.)
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Generally with Mech (close to what you were up against) Terrans get:
Hellions to deal with lings
Thors to deal with mutas
Tanks to deal with roaches
Banshees to force hydra or a spire (sometimes added in)
So if you go against a Mech style player without one of it's components, except the banshee, then get the unit that it should be there to kill.
In your game there were no hellions, so with mass ling you would have easily crushed a tank thor army. Obviously 0 0 lings arnt going to help, you need upgrades for this to work. Infestors are also very good vs Mech style however, you tried to NP the tanks.... thats not a good idea as you found out. Tanks do spash damage so if theres a bio army there it's a very good thing to go for, but since it was tank thor and spash damage wouldn't help that much, it would have made more sense to go for the thors, plus when it comes near the end of NP on the thor you can walk it away from the rest of the units so it's easily picked off.
You could also have used infested terran to cause the tanks to fire at eachother, also if the tanks are firing at infested terran eggs when you attack then they arnt attacking your army
Finally when you do successfully NP a tank, right before it wears off unseige it!
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One thing I like to do is if they have multiple siege tanks, you can drop a changeling onto one and the others will kill it for you.
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On June 16 2011 09:39 JamesJohansen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 08:20 Terminator(471) wrote:
What I would recommend against mech play is expand like crazy, drone SUPER hard. Like 90 drones, and get tons of queens for injects. Keep up the roach infestor thing and make sure to get burrow and burrow move. Then, try as best you can to contain. Drop roaches in his main while flanking to his natural or third. Upgrade fast, all the while teching to broodlords. Also, I would recommend adding in some lings to be a little meathshield against the tanks. Besides they will splash their own tanks if the lings get in range. Also, drop infested terrans while burrowed on to the tanks. It can be very effective.
Also as a sidenote, I saw in 1 game, this guy went roach baneling and put tons and tons of banelings into ovies and dropped onto the mech. while they were moving out. (while moving, the tanks, helions, and thors will most likely be clumped) The splash made them super effective. It's like dropping on a deathball. It's not the cheapest way, but it sure will kill everything the protoss has including collossus if you have enough banelings. Good luck! Jesus, I tend to have the same problem as this guy but it sounds like your recommending you outplay the fuck out of the Terran. I'm not saying its bad advice, but I wish there was an easier solution. Has anyone else had any luck doing drops similar to this (or more like"zealot bombs" from sc1)? AFAIK, if he only has thors for AA, the attacks won't be too effective against overlords since they're not classified as light (at least i don't think...) Forgive the noobishness of the post if its a dumb question, I'm only Gold Division
eh? what he is describing is exactly the sort of style terran has to play vs zerg in nearly every game. constant pressure, drops, attacking multiple places, keeping on top of macro and really precise micro. there is no reason why zerg can't adopt a similar style to deal with terran mech. don't use 'outplay the fuck' as a thinly veiled excuse for your onw balance whines.
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i dont see the problem here, if hes goin total mech with no marines just make mass muta and magic box them, theyll take out the thors and then proceed to destroy tanks and hellions
thats my experience vs mech at least, i used to make roaches to but tanks just demolished me:-(
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Zurich15325 Posts
Great thread. Good job people.
Please, listen to Jesus:
On June 16 2011 16:23 Jesushooves wrote:Hmmm, it appears I am one of the few people that actually watched the replay. The reason you lost that game had absolutely nothing to do with counters, at the beginning of the game you were 15 drones to 20 scvs because of the bunker push, with a fast expo by terran on the way. If the terran did a somewhat standard 3 tank and about 20 marine stim push he would have crushed you easily. The way you handled siege tanks in that game was quite good, and doesn't need to be changed, all you need to do is not get a huge disadvantage early game to beat meching players. (I am referring to you as the OP, not just anyone can beat meching players )
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I know we're supposed to comment specifically on given replays it to show OPs what they did wrong or what he should have done better, but I don't see why we need to comment specifically on a specific game if they ask very general questions in the OP such as what counters what or what you should get against what, which should be addressed before even getting into the details.
Unless in that situation we are to ignore the questions and just look at the replay?
Thanks in advance.
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Zurich15325 Posts
On June 17 2011 01:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Unless in that situation we are to ignore the questions and just look at the replay?
Thanks in advance.
That's putting it a bit harshly, but yes.
What you should do is look at the replay, and then give the OP the best advice based on what you see. If that happens to be exactly what he was asking for, perfect. If not, still give him advice about the replay, and point out that he may be asking the wrong questions about why he lost. Of course you can still answer any questions from their OP that might not have been that relevant to that particular game in addition to giving advice based on the replay.
The thing is many people don't realize why they have lost and may give a misleading description. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that - after all that is why they are coming here asking for help. But that makes it so important that you watch their replay.
Apart from that it's a matter of respecting the work they put into making a thread and uploading their game.
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Ah ok that makes sense, I didn't think of that last part.
Thanks for the fast reply.
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I don't understand why you would post a replay where you're so BM at the end?!?!! lol
It was a good game.
I'll try to stay simple for things to focus on that I noticed:
Watch your 3rd. Also put it up a bit earlier. You were a good minute or more late. You had over 1k minerals for a while. Put an OL by those rocks so you can see if he is coming to snipe it. Much like your OL line around your main, that was sweet. You need that 3rd up well before him.
The comments about mobility of mech have some merit. You didn't do anything to prevent his expanding. While the game was still "winnable" (Before you lost your army) he had 5 bases to your 4. Can't let them get away with that. Your choice of Muta or Roach drop harass, but it has to be something.
There were vikings visible before you started making Corruptors and Broodlords. He already knew what you were going to try to do. Best to let him throw that money away and mass up more roach/infestor. You threw away SOOO many minerals- I was watching FPV and was like "why making broodlords now? you've seen the vikings!"
You play very well and are very fast- use more of that APM for Harass and making sure you out-base him and you could win that strat.
edit: He basically out predicted your whole strat, he knew where your 3rd would be. He sniped it. He knew you would go Broodlords and had the response WELL ready. He was good at forcing you to do something, and being ready with an answer. Sometimes that stuff is hard to see, but he controlled the whole game as far as unit choices- you would rather be doing that as Zerg- obviously.
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EPT
