[Q] 14, 15 or 16 Hatch? - Page 2

HiredGoonThug

United States72 Posts

June 09 2011 22:11 GMT

#21

There was a huge thread on this kind of subject a month back or so.
14h 14p is the 'best' economic opening. If I remember right, it has a lot to do with larva and queen timings.
11overpool 18h was also explored at length, it's a great opening that doesn't fall too far short of 14/14 but gets you the earlier pool obviously.
Take what I say with a grain of salt though, I play protoss, I just read these forums often.

Olsson

Sweden931 Posts

June 09 2011 22:18 GMT

#22

15 hatch, believe it or not gets the pool down quicker if you go 15 hatch 14 pool and is the safest as you have more options after the two structures are finished.
Its more economical than 14 hatch but still safer.
It's less economical than 16 hatch but way safer.

lindn

Sweden833 Posts

June 09 2011 22:19 GMT

#23

On June 10 2011 06:00 mcclurg wrote:
I've tried search and not really found anything relevant on this topic!

So after listening to many other zergs on different builds, each player seems to have their own time to fast expo. Spanishiwa's original build was a 16 hatch, Idra prefers 15 hatch, I've seen some other players 14 hatch, etc. When I ask why a player hatches at a certain time, I don't seem to get a definitive answer. Answers include

16 hatch is more economic (my question is "why?")
15 hatch is safer (my question is "why?")
14 hatch is safer/gets a better economy later ("what?)

Sorry if I'm perhaps just being a real noob, but I'm a mid diamond level zerg, and have never really understood the benefits of each.

Thanks, and much love

CluEleSs

16 hatch is very economic but is VERY easy to lose to the 10/11 rax (??) rush. 15 hatch lets you get the pool slightly faster but is still up to par with 16 hatch (you won't lose that much eco) and 14 hatch isn't good at all, 15/14 is the same speed and more eco than doing 14/14

PtM

89 Posts

June 09 2011 22:27 GMT

#24

The answer to this question isn't nearly as obvious as some people in this thread are suggesting. There have been some valid considerations presented, but the larva mechanics make the solution much more complicated than some posters have let on.

While it's true that waiting longer for the hatchery (say, until 16 drones) will allow you to continuously produce drones without any idle larvae, it's also the case that an earlier hatchery will eventually result in more larvae due to the larva-production of two hatcheries. Moreover, the spawning pool also creates an eventual income increase due to the queen's injection mechanic. That is, building a hatchery or a spawning pool causes a short term decrease in income (-1 drone mining, potentially but not necessarily idle larvae), it eventually causes an increase in income (more larvae leading to more drone production).

In other words, there are incentives in each direction -- getting an earlier hatchery means more larvae, getting an earlier spawning pool means more larvae, but the earlier you get those structures the more time you have to spend without producing drones. Given a specific time, it is relatively easy to determine the build which maximizes income at that time. However, the optimal build does depend on what time you choose. For example, if we're talking about maximizing your income at the 2:00 mark, the best solution is to make exclusively drones without building any structures (because you won't get the benefit of increased larvae by then, and you'll lose 1 drone's mining and maybe have idle larvae). If we want to maximize income at the 10:00 mark, surely both a spawning pool and (at least one) hatchery will need to be constructed, since that's a timescale at which the added larvae will be very important (and since there are diminishing returns on the value of a drone at a single base due to saturation).

I will note that despite all of those considerations, it's still possible that there's one single solution that is optimal for a wide range of times. Specifically, it's possible that the incentives I outlined above compare in such a way that one of them is clearly the dominant effect. For example, it's possible that getting the increased early income (by not producing structures) "snowballs" into a bigger income advantage than the investment into more larvae. I'm not willing to make such a conjecture without playing around with the different options for a little while, but it is a possibility (and it wouldn't surprise me to find out that someone has already done the math on this). Even if such a solution exists, it's certainly not as simple as "just thinking about it" -- I highly doubt that anyone without a background in modeling systems like this can just intuit the answer.

And, finally, I'll say that this is ultimately purely academic. The exact solution to this problem isn't very important, because the rules of thumb are going to produce something that is very close to the optimal solution, and other factors like safety become much more important. Is it really worth it to try to get 5% more income if it leaves you more vulnerable to early pressure?

PtM

89 Posts

June 09 2011 22:32 GMT

#25

Also, one small addendum to the treatise that I just spewed out: pylon blocks make several of the proposed builds unusable. A 15 hatch gets blocked often enough, so doing something like 16 hatch or 14 pool 14 hatch is even less likely to be successful. In each case you are likely to be forced to produce some lings before actually placing the hatchery.

illKarasu

United States58 Posts

June 09 2011 22:58 GMT

#26

The "better economy" idea comes from the fact that if you wait to make 14 hatch vs 13 hatch, you are not spawning larva for a short period of time at 13/18 supply and so money is stockpiling. (I will make up some numbers that reflect what I found in testing and have since forgotten precise figures):

If you go 14 hatch, you have 100 minerals in the bank. If you drone to 15 hatch, you have say 150 minerals available due to larval shortage. 16 hatch will leave you with ~200 minerals to spend as you please. If it is hard to understand my 'figures' try to run 3-4 brief simulations.

I figure you know the obvious part about having more drones means a relatively stronger very-early economy; 12 drones < 15 drones mining. Try looking for the 14h/14p post that was mentioned too (very long tho!! lol)

::The later the hatch, the more minerals become available within the first minute or so because you can only spend so many larva.

The idea of "safer" has already been discussed in the thread I think.

FairForever

Canada2392 Posts

June 09 2011 23:25 GMT

#27

I just read this... it makes no sense to me

16h/15p is a faster pool than 15h/15p which is faster pool than 13h/15p...

I like 15/15 because I'm used to it, 13/15 from what I've read seems better if you can drone up (which is a never in ZvZ)...

terr13

United States298 Posts

June 09 2011 23:34 GMT

#28

I go 14 Hatch, 15 pool. To be honest, almost all the builds are about the same economy wise, and your choice to produce lings or drones early has a bigger impact. With 14/15, The pool and Hatch go up at the same time, so I can make both Queens ASAP. I usually do something along the lines of 14 Hatch, 15 pool, 18 OL/Gas. I think it's really a matter of personal preference. It used to be much bigger in SC1, but since delaying pool delays your queen, it becomes a lot closer in terms of overall economy.

Vundox

United States182 Posts

June 09 2011 23:44 GMT

#29

14 hatch 15 pool is the MOST economic build followed by 11 pool 18 hatch. However, the differences are only truly noticeable early game so just go with whatever youre most comfortable with. I.E. Spanishiwa likes doing 13h13p

Exley

United States239 Posts

June 09 2011 23:45 GMT

#30

The economic difference between 14H,15H, and 16H is very small. The earlier the hatch, the earlier you'll have larva spawning and the less likely it is to get blocked. The later the hatch, the more minerals you will have mined with the drone that becomes the hatchery.

Kornholi0

Canada634 Posts

June 09 2011 23:57 GMT

#31

On June 10 2011 06:27 zezamer wrote:
Could someone actually answer his questions instead of posting ton of useless/inaccurate stuff

"
16 hatch is more economic (my question is "why?")
15 hatch is safer (my question is "why?")
14 hatch is safer/gets a better economy later ("what?)

"

-.-

16 is more economic because you get more drones therefore theoretically your economy is booming faster.
15 is safer because you have an extra larva dedicated to lings + your hatch is down faster + spines can be thrown up faster.
14 is safest and gets the best economy later because you get the most larva faster, which doesn't mean much because you can't support all the larva right away.
13 is by far the most safe, but economically you suffer slightly but because of the fast spines + queens you can easily defend and make up for the difference.

ixi.genocide

United States981 Posts

June 10 2011 00:10 GMT

#32

The difference between the hatch timings

16h- you get 1-3 more drones before your hatch, early game that is a rather large % (7-23%). This build naturally gets you a later pool.

15h- pool is quicker than 16 hatch, easier to defend, slightly faster queen (almost negligible). Based off of timings most pros consider this to be the best simply because it has functionally the same resilience as 14/13h yet more drones.

14h- -2 drones from the 16h, but you get a queen earlier (starting to be significant) and faster lings in light of pressure. Also to note is that the creep spread of ur hatchery can be important when fighting 2 rax etc.

13h- At this point you have reached the opposite end of the spectrum. You are sacraficing 3 quicker drones but getting a queen considerably faster for the larvae/tumors.

All of these builds have some merit to them.... But the later hatcheries don't suffer from lack of early defense as much as the early hatcheries suffer from economic losses. I use a 14h/14p whenever possible.

Majromax

Canada14 Posts

June 10 2011 06:14 GMT

#33

Alright, time to be a little quantitative. In the build order calculator, I tested hatch-first openings from 13-16 hatchery and 12-17 pool, as seemed sensible.

Simplifying assumptions, I kept the build gas-free and built nothing but queens, drones, and overlords. The built continued to 32 drones, which is obviously a little more than you'd want to do in a real game, but it gives time for "late economy" to show up.

The specific build used was:
+ Show Spoiler +

9 Overlord
14 Hatchery #natural, then transfer 8 drones and queen from #natural then constant spawn larvae
13 spawning pool then queen then constant spawn larvae
16 overlord
25 overlord
28 overlord
35 drone
5:10 checkpoint

To measure performance, I recorded:

Completion time of the spawning pool
Available larvae at 5:10 (used because the 14/15 hatches had a larva pop at about 5:03)
Available minerals at 5:10
Completion time of the 32nd drone

The results were as follows:
Hatch Pool: SpawningPoolTime, Larva, Minerals, 32Drone
13 12: SP@3:17, 4, 600, 5:15
13 13: SP@3:22, 5, 665, 5:10
13 14: SP@3:27, 5, 620, 5:14
13 15: SP@3:32, 6, 744, 5:19
13 16: SP@3:37, 6, 758, 5:24

14 13: SP@3:20, 5, 686, 5:08
14 14: SP@3:25, 5, 726, 5:12
14 15: SP@3:30, 5, 749, 5:17
14 16: SP@3:35, 6, 763, 5:22

15 14: SP@3:24, 5, 721, 5:11
15 15: SP@3:29, 5, 741, 5:16
15 16: SP@3:33, 5, 756, 5:20

16 15: SP@3:28, 1(+4), 737, 5:15
16 16: SP@3:33, 1(+4), 748, 5:20
16 17: SP@3:37, 1(+4), 756, 5:24

(The +4 is there on the 16hatch openings because the second larva (from the natural) pops at about 5:12. For a timing comparison, a 6pool has its first set of zerglings pop at 2:04, and a 10pool has zerglings about 30 seconds later.)

A few tentative conclusions from this:

It's the spawning pool time, rather than the hatchery, that really 'sacrifices economy''
Larva count is very stable, although this analysis doesn't take timings into account.
14 hatch/13 pool is the most "long term economic" build, in that it gets the full complement of 32 workers the fastest.
13-pools and faster munch a larva, in that the hatchery stays at 3 larva and the spawning of another is delayed at least slightly.
Consequently, 13/15 is the most larva-friendly build in that it gets larva to pop the fastest-possible, without munching any from needing to accumulate minerals.

In a side test where I added a "36 Zergling[6]" to the end of the build order, each of these had the last zergling pop out between 5:24 (13/14) and 5:37 (16/* and 13/12). Larva was, of course, the limiting resource.

Especially in light of not getting pylon-blocked, 13/14 looks extremely reasonable as an opening.

Big J

Austria16289 Posts

June 10 2011 06:29 GMT

#34

I did use 14h/14p, out of defensive reasons (imo the best way to fight a 2rax is to have the hatch as fast as possible).
But lately I did the little more economic 15/15. 15/14 if I scout a 2rax, 15/16 if I scout a gas or the map is big.

sunprince

United States2258 Posts

June 10 2011 11:49 GMT

#35

14 hatch is the most economic, and is the equivalent of 12 hatch from BW. It's been demonstrated in tests before.

People who think otherwise are overlooking the importance of getting more larva sooner. You basically just want as much larva as you can afford to support. 14 hatch is basically the most efficient because it is the earliest that you can build a hatchery without wasting existing larva.

Schnullerbacke13

Germany1199 Posts

June 10 2011 14:43 GMT

#36

the later hatch gives a slight mineral income advantage early on
the earlier hatch gives a slight larvae advantage (as it finishes earlier) early on

it depends on your build and early army composition (gas timing, roach warren, evo ..). buildings are mineral heavy, early units need larvae.

a 13 hatch is down round 2'00
a 14 hatch is down round 2'07 (?)
a 15 hatch is down round 2'13 (?)
a 16 hatch is down round 2'20 (?)
(Note: timings might be not exact, depends on scouting also. test yourself)

so a 13 hatch has a larvae advantage of ~1,3 larvae over a 16 hatch @4'00.
on the other hand a 16 hatch should deliver ~80..120 minerals more minerals (just test it, hard to compute) @4:00

since more larvae = more drones, the 13 hatch may be better economically later on.

crocodile

United States615 Posts

June 10 2011 15:37 GMT

#37

14 Hatch 15 Pool is the most economic build. Most minerals mined, larvae and drones produced by the 6 minute mark. The advantage of 16 hatch 15 pool is you get your pool faster than any other hatch first opener except 15 hatch 14 pool, with more drones.

bobwhiz

United States725 Posts

June 10 2011 15:42 GMT

#38

Someone has done the calculation, I will try to find the thread.
Newer, better.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202464
Older, the start of the debate.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481

Go there, now this one can be closed.

Both OPs have more information than anyone in this thread dare try to reproduce.

stk01001

United States786 Posts

June 10 2011 15:57 GMT

#39

On June 10 2011 06:47 mcclurg wrote:

Show nested quote +

Why exactly is 14 hatch stupid?

it's not stupid.. honestly there's very little difference at the end of the day between 14, 15 & 16.. it's more of a stylistic thing. Obviously the later you throw down your hatch the more risky it is, but the better economy you'll have. But the difference is so small it's not game changing..

it's dumb to say 15 hatch is good, but 14 hatch is "stupid"... it's practically the same build..

i actually prefer 14 hatch at times on 2 player maps because there's less of a chance it's going to get blocked by an SCV or probe..

Penatronic

150 Posts

June 10 2011 18:08 GMT

#40

There's a lot been said on most of this already, but I think an attractive part of
15 hatch / 15 gas /15 pool is that you can pretty much get both queens and speed going almost as soon as the pool pops, simultaneously. It feels very sexy, and transitions really well into 2 base lingbling play. I honestly don't know so much for the other builds, though I've read the 30 pages of discussion on this subject that have happened in the year.

A lot can be said on what is most economic yada yada but I think in a real game situation you can't bank on your "yes my best economic build got 32 drones 7 seconds before the other build!!!

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