|
On June 07 2011 15:39 Basagu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 15:31 canikizu wrote:On June 07 2011 14:06 Dommk wrote:On June 07 2011 11:10 iChau wrote:On June 07 2011 11:05 StatX wrote:
If I understand what youre saying is to bring 1-2 warp prism with your main army and using their mobility more often?
Thats not a bad idea. I have been trying to drop but besides dts, the rest gets taken out rather quickly. Also, terrans will tend to build turrets if they can so the fragile warp prism will not get through.
I guess ill experiment it more and see what happens. Upgraded chargelots in small groups are godly vs other non-p units in small groups. Yeah they are, but they can be run around and delayed, other than killing workers I've never actually done any damage with Zealot warp-ins, building sim-cities and being slow really lowers the amount of damage you can do  Against Protoss you can start taking out Pylons and expensive production facilities/Tech, but Z/T it is not quite the same. Against Zerg I just suicide them on certain expensive buildings or hatcheries. But what else is there to kill? Terran I find I do very little damage if at all :X Kill the add-ons. You'll be surprised how effective it will delay Terran's army, given Terran always need to keep up the marauder counts in vP, Kill the ebay, or even armory to stop Terran from upgrade lvl2,3 weapon, armor. Kill the orbital. Remember, a rax that can only produce marines in TvP is a dead rax. Or you can cut his reinforcements from reaching his main army. Since the numbers coming out of the buildings will be low you should be able to take them on.
That's a given. You kill any living things (or machines) that in your sight.
But I don't really recommend you put too much heart on chasing units though. When Terran got attacked in the base, they will just right click all the raxes ON to the attackers so that when the units just pop out, it will automatically attack the enemies without mis-rallying (some people don't know that it is possible), and we all know what happens when marauders shoot zealots.
So what i'm saying is, those zealots will 100% percent dead, but at least they take some add-ons with them, not chasing units while got slowed.
|
I actully do this as often as I can in all 3 match ups, I use it late game on 3+ bases where toss usually have a huge surplus of minerals
Most effective in PvZ as stated as you can snipe hatcheries etc
I usually stop army production somewhere in the 180-190 range and get a ton of extra gates (like 16-20).
My initial warp in will usually have some dts and zealots because I'm near max and can sapre the gas . But if I have to rebuild my army it will be almost all zealots
|
On June 07 2011 15:45 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 15:31 canikizu wrote:On June 07 2011 14:06 Dommk wrote:On June 07 2011 11:10 iChau wrote:On June 07 2011 11:05 StatX wrote:
If I understand what youre saying is to bring 1-2 warp prism with your main army and using their mobility more often?
Thats not a bad idea. I have been trying to drop but besides dts, the rest gets taken out rather quickly. Also, terrans will tend to build turrets if they can so the fragile warp prism will not get through.
I guess ill experiment it more and see what happens. Upgraded chargelots in small groups are godly vs other non-p units in small groups. Yeah they are, but they can be run around and delayed, other than killing workers I've never actually done any damage with Zealot warp-ins, building sim-cities and being slow really lowers the amount of damage you can do Against Protoss you can start taking out Pylons and expensive production facilities/Tech, but Z/T it is not quite the same. Against Zerg I just suicide them on certain expensive buildings or hatcheries. But what else is there to kill? Terran I find I do very little damage if at all :X Kill the add-ons. You'll be surprised how effective it will delay Terran's army, given Terran always need to keep up the marauder counts in vP, Kill the ebay, or even armory to stop Terran from upgrade lvl2,3 weapon, armor. Kill the orbital. Remember, a rax that can only produce marines in TvP is a dead rax. If it was that easy then it would be awesome, but Terran has repair and often can save a building at the very last moment. Addons are nice but I find killing them much more effective with DT's. Warping in the Terrans main to me is something that works only when you are ahead, I don't think it is that effective vs Bio, but if Terrans use mech then it might be useful
If you have DTs, that's nice, but how many dts you can use at that moment?
Remember the drops the OP is trying to tell us are not sneaky drops which you sent 1 dts in and hope it won't get discovered. The drops we are talking about are drops that can cause serious damage if the Terran choose to ignore. It can be in-your-face or sneaky, but it require Terran to send a good amount of army to deal with it.
A DTs can be killed with 1 marauder and 2,3 rines. I doubt you can send 2,3 DTs, because it's such a heavy investment for 1 drop. You need to drop over and over again just like Terran, not doing some doom drop. On the other hands, 4 zealots and another rounds of zealots can cause serious damage for buildings and units if the Terran choose to ignore. You can even do drop with sentries to block the ramp with ff and raid his buildings.
|
I'd like to clarify after reading the OP mo®e clearly. When I do this my economy is developped enough that its not an all-in at all.
Late game my resources may look something like 3000/1500 after an army clash I may start 2 colossus warp in. A couple templar and a bunch of stalkers. Left over with 2k min or w/e if I'm facing zerg I don't want to replenish with zealots so ill warp thouse in locations around the map trying to snipe expansions or tech while I rebuild my army with the gas units I want
vs Terran you can deny PF by dropping about 3 stalkers behind the mineral line out of range of thr PF and just deny their mining. Much cheaper on gas them storm drops
Vs toss zealots or dts to snipe expos. Or key tech like robo/cybercore
|
You shouldn't be using only one Warp Prism at a time, this is exactly why it's useless. It's simple to deal with defending two places at once because most masters/GM players have the macro to deal with it but once you start harassing with 2 or even 3 warp prisms at a time then it starts to become a really powerful tool.
|
On June 07 2011 17:29 Flaunt wrote:
You shouldn't be using only one Warp Prism at a time, this is exactly why it's useless. It's simple to deal with defending two places at once because most masters/GM players have the macro to deal with it but once you start harassing with 2 or even 3 warp prisms at a time then it starts to become a really powerful tool.
That solely depends on what level you're playing, I as a platinum player will have a hard time just attacking/sending 1 wp/keeping up my macro.
Which I'm sure will be pretty hard to defend for another platinum player. Definitely going to give this tactic a go.
|
Speschial daktiks!
I think White-Ra's "Special tactics" is more or less: Flying a warp prism around warping in all sorts of stuff, everywhere! That will sometimes be exactly the same as what Plexa talks about in the op, but as far as i know it's mostly 2-3 DTs here and there.
I like the idea of an overwhelming zealot force right in his base, and will definately try to implement this into my gameplan.
Also, why not warp in a handfull of zealots at green, hide them, fly the prism to blue warp in another handfull and do a two pronged attack? (This will most likely leave you with an inferior standing army on the battlefield, but also leave the opponent with a severe headache, and you're already ahead in a potential "Base Race" if he decides to go down that path)
|
u can also warp in 4 dt's and go straight for the main. works for all 3 races, less to extent for terran. i find this shock and awe tactic needs to be used more.
|
On June 07 2011 15:49 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 15:39 Basagu wrote:On June 07 2011 15:31 canikizu wrote:On June 07 2011 14:06 Dommk wrote:On June 07 2011 11:10 iChau wrote:On June 07 2011 11:05 StatX wrote:
If I understand what youre saying is to bring 1-2 warp prism with your main army and using their mobility more often?
Thats not a bad idea. I have been trying to drop but besides dts, the rest gets taken out rather quickly. Also, terrans will tend to build turrets if they can so the fragile warp prism will not get through.
I guess ill experiment it more and see what happens. Upgraded chargelots in small groups are godly vs other non-p units in small groups. Yeah they are, but they can be run around and delayed, other than killing workers I've never actually done any damage with Zealot warp-ins, building sim-cities and being slow really lowers the amount of damage you can do Against Protoss you can start taking out Pylons and expensive production facilities/Tech, but Z/T it is not quite the same. Against Zerg I just suicide them on certain expensive buildings or hatcheries. But what else is there to kill? Terran I find I do very little damage if at all :X Kill the add-ons. You'll be surprised how effective it will delay Terran's army, given Terran always need to keep up the marauder counts in vP, Kill the ebay, or even armory to stop Terran from upgrade lvl2,3 weapon, armor. Kill the orbital. Remember, a rax that can only produce marines in TvP is a dead rax. Or you can cut his reinforcements from reaching his main army. Since the numbers coming out of the buildings will be low you should be able to take them on. That's a given. You kill any living things (or machines) that in your sight. But I don't really recommend you put too much heart on chasing units though. When Terran got attacked in the base, they will just right click all the raxes ON to the attackers so that when the units just pop out, it will automatically attack the enemies without mis-rallying (some people don't know that it is possible), and we all know what happens when marauders shoot zealots. So what i'm saying is, those zealots will 100% percent dead, but at least they take some add-ons with them, not chasing units while got slowed.
PvT I always trade my 4 chargelots for a lot of SCVs because Terran has the slowest worker production. I then aim for addons.
PvZ I aim for drones if possible, then queens to be annoying. If I see an annoying tech structure (roach warren, greater spire, etc) I will destroy that first.
|
A good tactic against terran is to get the warp prism instead of the observer to scout. Generally if your robo is sufficiently early you can get that prism into your opponents main before he even has a starport, and sometimes stim. This is especially effective against any sort of FE since most terrans will have their rally to their natural by their bunkers. By keeping this prism alive early on you can use it mid game for this strategy.
Against zerg DTs drops/warp-ins are pretty devastating. A really important point is that the warp prisms are also dropships...so you can warp in 4 DTs, save them, then come back with another warp-in so you have 8 DTs. If you can spare the APM saving drop units is very annoying for your opponent (Terran does it why can't we?).
Another thing that is pretty good is to load a probe into the prism and make pylons on hard to reach places (like on one of the watch tower high grounds on xel'naga) or on the edge of cliffs to basically let you have even more options for warp-ins.
|
Something I experienced was that when the toss army engaged me (I'm playing Z) he dropped 3 zealots in my main to snipe my queen and then try to take down tech structures.
If you get the queen you slow down the production for the Z a lot and he almost got my roachwarren but I stopped him in time but it was a nice idea by him. Zealots have high dps and are very cheap but yeah I would like to see Warp prism being used a lot more as the unit have a lot of potential
|
To me this looks like a guideline for a specific build whereas this tactic clearly works in the lategame as well. In my opinion the more bases you have the better this type of play is because if you sit on 200/200 with 4+ bases you can improve your infrastructure by throwing down additional Robotics Facilities and Stargates depending on the matchup and build up a very scary army very quickly with chronoboost while you are attacking multiple locations and kill off expansions with the remainders of your initial army. Using immortals with the warp prisms is a very powerful tool to cripple your opponent's production while DTs and Zealots go to town on everything else. Also if you started early enough you can have proxy pylons all over the place to attack literally every single location on the map obviously.
|
Another excellent thread Plexa. I still remember your awesome PvP mothership and PvZ threads.
I have found myself using the warp prism in a similar fashion PvZ but usually it's more of a lategame thing, usually warping in DTs and tech sniping. It's definitely something that should be incorporated into more of my play though, it can be very effective.
As a note +2 weapon chargelots, utterly murder probes that don't have the armour upgrade. Ironically it's more effective then vs T or Z workers
|
Fuck. Decent protoss that play like this are the only ones I lose to. And now more of them are going to do this.
|
I actually prefer this late game vs zerg. Like hive tech late game. Sniping a morphing in Greater Spire has won me a few games just by saccing like 6 zealots.
Fuck brood lords.
|
I was playing a pvz last night on meta and I thought about this thread. It was one of those awkward games where protoss can't really establish a 3rd safely and zerg is having a hard time securing his own bases and neither player wants to engage directly, as zerg is going roach ling infestor vs templar/stalker army.
So with 1500 minerals and 0 gas I decided to make a warp prism and just dump zealots on zealots on zealots all over zerg's expansions. It was way more effective that I thought it would be. I felt like I was forcing zerg to do things rather than having him force me to do things (99% of my games when I don't do some stupid 2 base play)
So thanks for the inspiration and I'll be making warp prisms much more!
|
i don't know why more players don't do stuff like this. 1 zealot can do a whole lot of damage if you're distracted elsewhere, ask Strelok 
|
On June 08 2011 03:16 Alejandrisha wrote:
I was playing a pvz last night on meta and I thought about this thread. It was one of those awkward games where protoss can't really establish a 3rd safely and zerg is having a hard time securing his own bases and neither player wants to engage directly, as zerg is going roach ling infestor vs templar/stalker army.
So with 1500 minerals and 0 gas I decided to make a warp prism and just dump zealots on zealots on zealots all over zerg's expansions. It was way more effective that I thought it would be. I felt like I was forcing zerg to do things rather than having him force me to do things (99% of my games when I don't do some stupid 2 base play)
So thanks for the inspiration and I'll be making warp prisms much more!
Is there any way I can get a copy of that replay? I need all the help I can get in PvZ.
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 08 2011 03:16 Alejandrisha wrote:
I was playing a pvz last night on meta and I thought about this thread. It was one of those awkward games where protoss can't really establish a 3rd safely and zerg is having a hard time securing his own bases and neither player wants to engage directly, as zerg is going roach ling infestor vs templar/stalker army.
So with 1500 minerals and 0 gas I decided to make a warp prism and just dump zealots on zealots on zealots all over zerg's expansions. It was way more effective that I thought it would be. I felt like I was forcing zerg to do things rather than having him force me to do things (99% of my games when I don't do some stupid 2 base play)
So thanks for the inspiration and I'll be making warp prisms much more!
haha I've been trying to get some more reps but megalisk is dodging me
|
On June 08 2011 04:39 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 03:16 Alejandrisha wrote:
I was playing a pvz last night on meta and I thought about this thread. It was one of those awkward games where protoss can't really establish a 3rd safely and zerg is having a hard time securing his own bases and neither player wants to engage directly, as zerg is going roach ling infestor vs templar/stalker army.
So with 1500 minerals and 0 gas I decided to make a warp prism and just dump zealots on zealots on zealots all over zerg's expansions. It was way more effective that I thought it would be. I felt like I was forcing zerg to do things rather than having him force me to do things (99% of my games when I don't do some stupid 2 base play)
So thanks for the inspiration and I'll be making warp prisms much more! haha I've been trying to get some more reps but megalisk is dodging me
He dodges me too
I think I have some good replays of me doing this from a few weeks ago. When I get home I'll look for them.
Basically in PvZ lately I've liked to go 3 Gate Expand into 4 gate + robo + forge. With the robo I like to get an obs or two out, two if my hallus didn't get me much info (due to zerg burrow or hide tech building, etc). Then I'll almost always get immortals, stalkers, and sentries. This composition is good vs pretty much everything if you have good unit control and army movements/positioning. It's even good vs Hydralisks if you use FF properly. The only thing this doesn't do well against is muta/ling, but the hallus should have spotted this, and you wouldn't be using it against muta/ling.
Next step I like to take is Twilight followed near immediately by dark shrine. Blink gives additional utility to your already existing stalkers, and the twilight gives additional utility to your forge, which gives your army additional strength via upgrades (you should already have 1-1 now). Since you already have a robo out, you should have 1-2 warp prisms out by now. If you have the APM, you'd probably already baited out the Zerg army with scary army movements of your own, only to warp in 4-6 zealots into a base of the zerg. Once the dark shrine comes up, you can place a couple DT into your army, warp in DTs all over with the warp prisms, and create archons to protect your army which is currently slightly prone to mass amounts of weak units (lings/banelings).
Using this sort of game plan in PvZ allows me to defeat my opponent if they cannot match whatever skill I have mechanics wise. If I were to use a more standard death-bally sort of play then my mechanics wouldn't be able to shine through as much, and I could potentially lose to a player with lesser mechanics because of the smaller amount of mechanics needed to play against that style. Lately on ladder I've been winning a lot of PvZ by simply thinking of ways to utilize my mechanical skills (i.e. controlling multiple warp prisms and utilizing smart and effective army positioning/movements, all while macroing properly) and require my opponent to match them in order to win.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
