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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 07 2011 04:34 rycho wrote:
even assuming you can get the warp prism there pvz completely unscouted, i have doubts as to the effectiveness of this.
firstly, gateway units are really bad in small numbers, despite what you've posted. zealots lose to whatever zerg unit that he's reinforcing with (including lings) at even cost, and you're fighting on creep and near a queen and possible static defense. on top of this, unlike a medivac drop you aren't getting away if the battle turns against you because protoss units are very slow and prone to be surrounded.
past this, wasting 10 supply of units not in the battle with your main army probably means you're going to lose the fight. again, since protoss units tend to be slow you probably aren't getting away - if you are behind in the battle at the front, you lose everything and probably the game. this is why most protoss players tend to leave their units together when possible in this matchup.
i know warp prisms have taken over for nydus worms as the unit everyone says should be used more, but they just aren't that effective. it would be great if there was anything worth warping in, but protoss units are just ineffective compared to their zerg and terran counterparts when fighting in small numbers.
You haven't read the thread. We're not talking about warping in 10 units randomly into the zerg main, were timing it with our army movements. The unit we're warping in aren't going to be a part of our main army anyway, as already discussed.
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On June 07 2011 04:36 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 04:34 rycho wrote:
even assuming you can get the warp prism there pvz completely unscouted, i have doubts as to the effectiveness of this.
firstly, gateway units are really bad in small numbers, despite what you've posted. zealots lose to whatever zerg unit that he's reinforcing with (including lings) at even cost, and you're fighting on creep and near a queen and possible static defense. on top of this, unlike a medivac drop you aren't getting away if the battle turns against you because protoss units are very slow and prone to be surrounded.
past this, wasting 10 supply of units not in the battle with your main army probably means you're going to lose the fight. again, since protoss units tend to be slow you probably aren't getting away - if you are behind in the battle at the front, you lose everything and probably the game. this is why most protoss players tend to leave their units together when possible in this matchup.
i know warp prisms have taken over for nydus worms as the unit everyone says should be used more, but they just aren't that effective. it would be great if there was anything worth warping in, but protoss units are just ineffective compared to their zerg and terran counterparts when fighting in small numbers. You haven't read the thread. We're not talking about warping in 10 units randomly into the zerg main, were timing it with our army movements. The unit we're warping in aren't going to be a part of our main army anyway, as already discussed.
yes, i have read the thread. i've seen you say this numerous times, and its categorically wrong. if you're attacking their army as your warp gates come up and then warping in their main, not near your army, then the reinforcements would be part of your army.
just because you're choosing to attack them at a poor time (right as your warp gates are coming up) doesn't mean you can then choose to say you couldn't have possibly reinforced your main army.
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i could see this hurting zerg alot, since in most cases protoss wins the ground battle which overtime can be overrun by zergs next wave, which this strat would force the zerg to split up his oh so important reinforcements allowing a toss to simply deny some expansion. against terran this could be just as crucial if you get massive warpins to terrans production areas.
but. theres always a downside to this, for instance unless your putting an additional robo down your going to lose some collosi/immortal/obs time. also zergs could just counter this with scourge, oh wait.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 07 2011 04:42 rycho wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 04:36 Plexa wrote:On June 07 2011 04:34 rycho wrote:
even assuming you can get the warp prism there pvz completely unscouted, i have doubts as to the effectiveness of this.
firstly, gateway units are really bad in small numbers, despite what you've posted. zealots lose to whatever zerg unit that he's reinforcing with (including lings) at even cost, and you're fighting on creep and near a queen and possible static defense. on top of this, unlike a medivac drop you aren't getting away if the battle turns against you because protoss units are very slow and prone to be surrounded.
past this, wasting 10 supply of units not in the battle with your main army probably means you're going to lose the fight. again, since protoss units tend to be slow you probably aren't getting away - if you are behind in the battle at the front, you lose everything and probably the game. this is why most protoss players tend to leave their units together when possible in this matchup.
i know warp prisms have taken over for nydus worms as the unit everyone says should be used more, but they just aren't that effective. it would be great if there was anything worth warping in, but protoss units are just ineffective compared to their zerg and terran counterparts when fighting in small numbers. You haven't read the thread. We're not talking about warping in 10 units randomly into the zerg main, were timing it with our army movements. The unit we're warping in aren't going to be a part of our main army anyway, as already discussed. yes, i have read the thread. i've seen you say this numerous times, and its categorically wrong. if you're attacking their army as your warp gates come up and then warping in their main, not near your army, then the reinforcements would be part of your army. just because you're choosing to attack them at a poor time (right as your warp gates are coming up) doesn't mean you can then choose to say you couldn't have possibly reinforced your main army. I personally feel that warping into their main is significantly easier to execute than warping in to support your army. Each to his own though. Typically speaking though, in a midgame pvz where you have 1000 minerals and no gas - 10 zealots aren't going to beef up your army at all. Wouldn't you agree that in that case it's better to mineral dump into their main that your army? I feel this has a time and place to be executed, it's not a cure all magic fix for any matchup - merely an option to amp up the pain in the mid game if circumstances permit.
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On June 07 2011 04:45 WniO wrote:
i could see this hurting zerg alot, since in most cases protoss wins the ground battle which overtime can be overrun by zergs next wave, which this strat would force the zerg to split up his oh so important reinforcements allowing a toss to simply deny some expansion. against terran this could be just as crucial if you get massive warpins to terrans production areas.
but. theres always a downside to this, for instance unless your putting an additional robo down your going to lose some collosi/immortal/obs time. also zergs could just counter this with scourge, oh wait.
it does force zerg to split their army, but if they play correctly this benefits them, not protoss. zerg is happy to be fighting 2-3 small engagements because:
- blink and force fields (the only real way to really make basic gateway units cost effective this far into a game) require much much more attention than roaches, lings, and hydras do
- guardian shield and force field become much more effective in larger numbers and when supported by the protoss aoe units
- zerg units are faster. this means that if they have less units in one area, they simply run away, crush the other attack (because presumably they would have more there) and you gain nothing
all this kind of strategy does is gamble that your opponent will be slow to scout and respond correctly to a drop and that they'll split their units sub-optimally. i have no doubts that it can be somewhat effective in the short term, especially given that most players playing against protoss aren't used to having to split their units much, but the fact is that if both players play optimally, this kind of thing puts you behind. warp prisms have their place, but it is to help with dt harassment and reinforcing the main army, not to try to drop 20 supply of units like a terran or zerg player.
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On June 07 2011 00:01 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 23:57 Kuro Shinigami wrote:
If the two main armies annihilate each other, and you still have the resources to warp in at the back of their bases i think this is making the assumption that you are already ahead in the game thus you could win anyway by simply fighting the main battle. Perhaps I assumed too much, but let me justify that statement a bit more. I find that in a lot of my pvz's that the Zerg will try to kill all my shit with banelings and at the end of the exchange we end up with no army each. The zerg then tries to remax on lings/roaches to exploit the lack of gas units and hence take the game. My reinforcements will be at home, not doing anything, and I'll be sitting there trying to churn out more colossus/VR/templar/archons - or whatever my gas heavy unit of choice is. This is designed to stop such occurrences by being active with those first round of 'expendable' units. Let us remind ourselves though, that the units we are warping in with the prism would not normally be in the army. They would be warped in to the closest based and used for reinforcements. Your opponent would be building reinforcements too, so you end up even again. What this does is places that first round of reinforcements in his main (or in your army) so that they are actually serving a purpose rather than walking across the map. Again, I stress how difficult it is to get the timing right on the warp prism so that you are attacking while warping in your first round of 'reinforcements' into his main.
So, if I am reading this right, is it also safe to assume that this is also a time delayer? For example, lets say you have your typical protoss deathball, and the zerg baneling drop roach army. Both armies have been completely wiped out, and it is obvious the zerg will remax much faster. In this case, while the zerg is focusing on the fight, he cannot remax, because the tech trees are killed. If so, what about adding an immortal variation into this mix (Drop immortal + warp zealot)? I know it's a huge investment as the 1 immortal can be a huge difference, but could it possibly be worth it for killing numerous tech buildings?
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Hey there! I love your post, especially since I'm still new to protoss and these more interesting strategies make the learning process fun =).
I was wondering however, would it be a good idea to in the early - mid game have used that warp prism to drop a probe in a hidden part of his base (think Shattered Temple in that corner) and then have the warp prism drop at his third with the exact same strategy as you descirbed, but with the second round of units attacking at his main. The opponent will be forced to choose between defending his third and his main from attack.
This might run into trouble vs zergs that spread their overlord correctly though.
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On June 07 2011 04:49 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 04:42 rycho wrote:On June 07 2011 04:36 Plexa wrote:On June 07 2011 04:34 rycho wrote:
even assuming you can get the warp prism there pvz completely unscouted, i have doubts as to the effectiveness of this.
firstly, gateway units are really bad in small numbers, despite what you've posted. zealots lose to whatever zerg unit that he's reinforcing with (including lings) at even cost, and you're fighting on creep and near a queen and possible static defense. on top of this, unlike a medivac drop you aren't getting away if the battle turns against you because protoss units are very slow and prone to be surrounded.
past this, wasting 10 supply of units not in the battle with your main army probably means you're going to lose the fight. again, since protoss units tend to be slow you probably aren't getting away - if you are behind in the battle at the front, you lose everything and probably the game. this is why most protoss players tend to leave their units together when possible in this matchup.
i know warp prisms have taken over for nydus worms as the unit everyone says should be used more, but they just aren't that effective. it would be great if there was anything worth warping in, but protoss units are just ineffective compared to their zerg and terran counterparts when fighting in small numbers. You haven't read the thread. We're not talking about warping in 10 units randomly into the zerg main, were timing it with our army movements. The unit we're warping in aren't going to be a part of our main army anyway, as already discussed. yes, i have read the thread. i've seen you say this numerous times, and its categorically wrong. if you're attacking their army as your warp gates come up and then warping in their main, not near your army, then the reinforcements would be part of your army. just because you're choosing to attack them at a poor time (right as your warp gates are coming up) doesn't mean you can then choose to say you couldn't have possibly reinforced your main army. I personally feel that warping into their main is significantly easier to execute than warping in to support your army. Each to his own though. Typically speaking though, in a midgame pvz where you have 1000 minerals and no gas - 10 zealots aren't going to beef up your army at all. Wouldn't you agree that in that case it's better to mineral dump into their main that your army? I feel this has a time and place to be executed, it's not a cure all magic fix for any matchup - merely an option to amp up the pain in the mid game if circumstances permit.
yes, in this case i suppose assuming you're completely set on cannons, warp gates, and expansions and you either have a warp prism or can spare the robo time then i think zealots at different expansions can be pretty good. i find it to be very difficult to do this kind of thing unscouted though, unless you have some phoenixes or a void ray to clear out some of the overlords beforehand.
perhaps i misunderstood the OP though, i thought it was being presented as sort of a midgame 2-3 base all-in where you get 10 gates and a warp prism and then try to trick them into a poor position and win the game (or do a bunch of damage) with your zealot warpin. theres a big difference to me between playing with this all-in goal in mind and doing some zealot warpin harassment when you get some extra money.
that said, personally when i do things like this i try to fake an attack and then force field off their army so they can't attack me so that i won't lose the main engagement that i otherwise would have without the warpins; i find this to be pretty effective. often their attention turns to their main or their expansion that you're attacking and you can move forward again and trap some units with some quick force fields and get some free kills.
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On June 07 2011 02:33 ComaDose wrote:
Hi Plexa ;p
I miss the shuttle but he couldn't carry a whole round of units anyways. At least he could take a beating.
The Shuttle and the Warp Prism have the same amount of overall hit points, just distributed differently.
Warp Prism: H:100 S:40 cost: 200 min
Shuttle: H:80 S:60 cost:200 min
The whole argument of the Shuttle being sturdier than the Warp prism doesn't really hold a whole lot of water. If old school BW players could harass with a Shuttle and a Reaver while Scourge were flying around, then I think we SC2 players can find a way to warp in 10+ zealots into an enemy base. I'm not saying it's easy, but harassment style play isn't supposed to be. Besides, I'd rather figure this out than constantly trading armies with zergs.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 07 2011 05:01 rycho wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 04:49 Plexa wrote:On June 07 2011 04:42 rycho wrote:On June 07 2011 04:36 Plexa wrote:On June 07 2011 04:34 rycho wrote:
even assuming you can get the warp prism there pvz completely unscouted, i have doubts as to the effectiveness of this.
firstly, gateway units are really bad in small numbers, despite what you've posted. zealots lose to whatever zerg unit that he's reinforcing with (including lings) at even cost, and you're fighting on creep and near a queen and possible static defense. on top of this, unlike a medivac drop you aren't getting away if the battle turns against you because protoss units are very slow and prone to be surrounded.
past this, wasting 10 supply of units not in the battle with your main army probably means you're going to lose the fight. again, since protoss units tend to be slow you probably aren't getting away - if you are behind in the battle at the front, you lose everything and probably the game. this is why most protoss players tend to leave their units together when possible in this matchup.
i know warp prisms have taken over for nydus worms as the unit everyone says should be used more, but they just aren't that effective. it would be great if there was anything worth warping in, but protoss units are just ineffective compared to their zerg and terran counterparts when fighting in small numbers. You haven't read the thread. We're not talking about warping in 10 units randomly into the zerg main, were timing it with our army movements. The unit we're warping in aren't going to be a part of our main army anyway, as already discussed. yes, i have read the thread. i've seen you say this numerous times, and its categorically wrong. if you're attacking their army as your warp gates come up and then warping in their main, not near your army, then the reinforcements would be part of your army. just because you're choosing to attack them at a poor time (right as your warp gates are coming up) doesn't mean you can then choose to say you couldn't have possibly reinforced your main army. I personally feel that warping into their main is significantly easier to execute than warping in to support your army. Each to his own though. Typically speaking though, in a midgame pvz where you have 1000 minerals and no gas - 10 zealots aren't going to beef up your army at all. Wouldn't you agree that in that case it's better to mineral dump into their main that your army? I feel this has a time and place to be executed, it's not a cure all magic fix for any matchup - merely an option to amp up the pain in the mid game if circumstances permit. yes, in this case i suppose assuming you're completely set on cannons, warp gates, and expansions and you either have a warp prism or can spare the robo time then i think zealots at different expansions can be pretty good. i find it to be very difficult to do this kind of thing unscouted though, unless you have some phoenixes or a void ray to clear out some of the overlords beforehand. perhaps i misunderstood the OP though, i thought it was being presented as sort of a midgame 2-3 base all-in where you get 10 gates and a warp prism and then try to trick them into a poor position and win the game (or do a bunch of damage) with your zealot warpin. theres a big difference to me between playing with this all-in goal in mind and doing some zealot warpin harassment when you get some extra money. that said, personally when i do things like this i try to fake an attack and then force field off their army so they can't attack me so that i won't lose the main engagement that i otherwise would have without the warpins; i find this to be pretty effective. often their attention turns to their main or their expansion that you're attacking and you can move forward again and trap some units with some quick force fields and get some free kills.
I dont mind if the warp prism gets scouted though, generally zergs overreact to it and they have to give up position. Which typically I can use to my benefit. The OP is expressing a technique which is meant to augment any standard midgame play - either warping units into your army or into his main. Faking an attack is perfectly fine, as you point out the zerg gives up position and you can exploit that.
By virtue of attacking with everything, I think this has to be classed as some kind of all in strategy. It simply has to do some damage or stall or something - else you'll die. You just don't get to waste a round of units on nothing and get away with it, if you know what I mean. In your case you're sac'ing a round of units to gain position and maybe some drone kills - which is fine but you still need to do damage (which you do by trapping units with ff). It's a valid technique, it's just hard to get right.
On June 07 2011 05:06 awwnuts07 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 02:33 ComaDose wrote:
Hi Plexa ;p
I miss the shuttle but he couldn't carry a whole round of units anyways. At least he could take a beating.
The Shuttle and the Warp Prism have the same amount of overall hit points, just distributed differently. Warp Prism: H:100 S:40 cost: 200 min Shuttle: H:80 S:60 cost:200 min The whole argument of the Shuttle being sturdier than the Warp prism doesn't really hold a whole lot of water. If old school BW players could harass with a Shuttle and a Reaver while Scourge were flying around, then I think we SC2 players can find a way to warp in 10+ zealots into an enemy base. I'm not saying it's easy, but harassment style play isn't supposed to be. Besides, I'd rather figure this out than constantly trading armies with zergs.
Warp prism is weaker than the shuttle because the strength of AA units is significantly higher. So while their HP is the same, prisms die way faster and hence *feel* weaker.
On June 07 2011 04:59 Axel.Bowex wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 00:01 Plexa wrote:On June 06 2011 23:57 Kuro Shinigami wrote:
If the two main armies annihilate each other, and you still have the resources to warp in at the back of their bases i think this is making the assumption that you are already ahead in the game thus you could win anyway by simply fighting the main battle. Perhaps I assumed too much, but let me justify that statement a bit more. I find that in a lot of my pvz's that the Zerg will try to kill all my shit with banelings and at the end of the exchange we end up with no army each. The zerg then tries to remax on lings/roaches to exploit the lack of gas units and hence take the game. My reinforcements will be at home, not doing anything, and I'll be sitting there trying to churn out more colossus/VR/templar/archons - or whatever my gas heavy unit of choice is. This is designed to stop such occurrences by being active with those first round of 'expendable' units. Let us remind ourselves though, that the units we are warping in with the prism would not normally be in the army. They would be warped in to the closest based and used for reinforcements. Your opponent would be building reinforcements too, so you end up even again. What this does is places that first round of reinforcements in his main (or in your army) so that they are actually serving a purpose rather than walking across the map. Again, I stress how difficult it is to get the timing right on the warp prism so that you are attacking while warping in your first round of 'reinforcements' into his main. So, if I am reading this right, is it also safe to assume that this is also a time delayer? For example, lets say you have your typical protoss deathball, and the zerg baneling drop roach army. Both armies have been completely wiped out, and it is obvious the zerg will remax much faster. In this case, while the zerg is focusing on the fight, he cannot remax, because the tech trees are killed. If so, what about adding an immortal variation into this mix (Drop immortal + warp zealot)? I know it's a huge investment as the 1 immortal can be a huge difference, but could it possibly be worth it for killing numerous tech buildings? Pretty much. If you're playing this off of a deathball which just got smashed - you are well behind. If the Zerg trades armies with a death ball then that is a massive win for him. You're basically playing stall until you can get more gas units, you're in a crap situation but it might just give you some valuable seconds... I don't deathball any more pvz so I'm not sure if this is actually the case, but it makes sense that it would be.
I wouldn't have immortals if I have a deathball, so that scenario wouldn't happen.
On June 07 2011 05:00 Nurkas wrote:
Hey there! I love your post, especially since I'm still new to protoss and these more interesting strategies make the learning process fun =).
I was wondering however, would it be a good idea to in the early - mid game have used that warp prism to drop a probe in a hidden part of his base (think Shattered Temple in that corner) and then have the warp prism drop at his third with the exact same strategy as you descirbed, but with the second round of units attacking at his main. The opponent will be forced to choose between defending his third and his main from attack.
This might run into trouble vs zergs that spread their overlord correctly though.
Nope that is a terrible strategy and wouldn't work against any competent player. I've done stuff with two prisms though, and that can be fun but pretty gimmicky. Anything involving a warp prism before the 13 minute mark is probably not going to work - unless you are white-ra 
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Wouldn't a Colo drop backed up by 6 - 10 Zealots (depending on gates) be more effective? Colo to take the mineral lines and Zealots to take out tech structures?
I'm not a good player (and it's been a while since I played BW) but regarding Protoss being dropped on by Terran (and now Zerg) shouldn't we be making more observers (as I seem to recall being done in BW) and spreading them around the map? A least along usual drop routes? I'm not sure I get why Protoss often just make 1 observer (or 2 at the most) when 4 - 5 may be better. They dont take that long to build especially with Chrono and can certainly be churned out while the Support Bay and Lance upgrade are going on (although the gas cost is a factor). Maybe in the future we'll see two Robo Bays as standard for Protoss.
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I haven't read the entire thread (only the OP), but beside the fact that this is a very potent tactic, I'd like to make 3 comments:
1. In terms of effectivness, vZ > vP > vT. Against Z, there's literally 0 risk and almost never a bad idea. Mid-late game zealots are useless in your main army and you're always limited on gas, and have plenty of extra minerals. And warping in anywhere is good. Zerg always has lots of undefended expansions for you to hit, and the main can be potentially a great target as well.
Against P, 1 of 2 things can happen - your opponent doesn't have warpgates ready and cannot warp in anything to defend, so he takes a lot of damage. His main army may gain a slight edge over yours, but the economic damage he takes will make it far more worth it for you. The other thing that can happen is that he does have warpgates ready, in which case he needs to warp in an equal or greater number of units to defend, so that when your main armies clash you'll end up ahead in that battle. In PvP defender's advantage doesn't really exist - if anything, it's usually attacker's advantage. The only reason why I think using this vP is slightly worse than vZ is because your robo build time is absolutely critical when keeping up in colossus wars, plus PvP usually involves low-econ games where every mineral does matter.
Against T, most expansions are guarded by planetaries, plus in most cases all of a terran's production facilities are located in the main (unlike zerg) so either you'll have to warp in a lot of zealots in the main to actually kill stuff, or he'll be able to defend it just by units popping out of barracks. Also zealots are a vital part of a Protoss ball against terran, so every unit you're leaving out of your main ball is weakening your main army. This isn't to say you shouldn't try this against T, because it certainly can deal a lot of damage in many circumstances.
2. You don't necessarily even need a warp prism! Throwing up proxy pylons in random places on the map, or putting a pylon right under someone's main and using an obs to warp in on top can be a much less micro intensive substitute than a warp prism. Especially in late game, proxy pylons are cheap, give you map control/vision, and don't take up robo build time.
3. In terms of what units to warp in, I agree that zealots and dts are best. But actually stalkers can be great in some circumstances: 2 that I can think of right away is harassing terran expos with planetaries - just put stalkers behind the minerals out of range of the planetary, but still in range to attack SCVs. This is so annoying for terran to deal with, especially if you have a few armor upgrades and then SCVs can't even kill those stalkers even if you don't micro them at all. The second is map dependent - some maps have cliffs behind the mineral line (think 3rd base on typhon, xel naga), which is perfect for placing a few stalkers on.
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On June 07 2011 05:31 Anihc wrote:
I haven't read the entire thread (only the OP), but beside the fact that this is a very potent tactic, I'd like to make 3 comments:
1. In terms of effectivness, vZ > vP > vT. Against Z, there's literally 0 risk and almost never a bad idea. Mid-late game zealots are useless in your main army and you're always limited on gas, and have plenty of extra minerals. And warping in anywhere is good. Zerg always has lots of undefended expansions for you to hit, and the main can be potentially a great target as well.
Against P, 1 of 2 things can happen - your opponent doesn't have warpgates ready and cannot warp in anything to defend, so he takes a lot of damage. His main army may gain a slight edge over yours, but the economic damage he takes will make it far more worth it for you. The other thing that can happen is that he does have warpgates ready, in which case he needs to warp in an equal or greater number of units to defend, so that when your main armies clash you'll end up ahead in that battle. In PvP defender's advantage doesn't really exist - if anything, it's usually attacker's advantage. The only reason why I think using this vP is slightly worse than vZ is because your robo build time is absolutely critical when keeping up in colossus wars, plus PvP usually involves low-econ games where every mineral does matter.
Against T, most expansions are guarded by planetaries, plus in most cases all of a terran's production facilities are located in the main (unlike zerg) so either you'll have to warp in a lot of zealots in the main to actually kill stuff, or he'll be able to defend it just by units popping out of barracks. Also zealots are a vital part of a Protoss ball against terran, so every unit you're leaving out of your main ball is weakening your main army. This isn't to say you shouldn't try this against T, because it certainly can deal a lot of damage in many circumstances.
2. You don't necessarily even need a warp prism! Throwing up proxy pylons in random places on the map, or putting a pylon right under someone's main and using an obs to warp in on top can be a much less micro intensive substitute than a warp prism. Especially in late game, proxy pylons are cheap, give you map control/vision, and don't take up robo build time.
3. In terms of what units to warp in, I agree that zealots and dts are best. But actually stalkers can be great in some circumstances: 2 that I can think of right away is harassing terran expos with planetaries - just put stalkers behind the minerals out of range of the planetary, but still in range to attack SCVs. This is so annoying for terran to deal with, especially if you have a few armor upgrades and then SCVs can't even kill those stalkers even if you don't micro them at all. The second is map dependent - some maps have cliffs behind the mineral line (think 3rd base on typhon, xel naga), which is perfect for placing a few stalkers on.
Good post. Thank you. I like what you said what Z>P>T effectiveness.. I agree completely. Though I do think warp prism is a lot more mobile and threatening than proxy pylon.
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As much as I love this when I play Protoss, what are some of the better response as zerg?
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On June 07 2011 04:49 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 04:42 rycho wrote:On June 07 2011 04:36 Plexa wrote:On June 07 2011 04:34 rycho wrote:
even assuming you can get the warp prism there pvz completely unscouted, i have doubts as to the effectiveness of this.
firstly, gateway units are really bad in small numbers, despite what you've posted. zealots lose to whatever zerg unit that he's reinforcing with (including lings) at even cost, and you're fighting on creep and near a queen and possible static defense. on top of this, unlike a medivac drop you aren't getting away if the battle turns against you because protoss units are very slow and prone to be surrounded.
past this, wasting 10 supply of units not in the battle with your main army probably means you're going to lose the fight. again, since protoss units tend to be slow you probably aren't getting away - if you are behind in the battle at the front, you lose everything and probably the game. this is why most protoss players tend to leave their units together when possible in this matchup.
i know warp prisms have taken over for nydus worms as the unit everyone says should be used more, but they just aren't that effective. it would be great if there was anything worth warping in, but protoss units are just ineffective compared to their zerg and terran counterparts when fighting in small numbers. You haven't read the thread. We're not talking about warping in 10 units randomly into the zerg main, were timing it with our army movements. The unit we're warping in aren't going to be a part of our main army anyway, as already discussed. yes, i have read the thread. i've seen you say this numerous times, and its categorically wrong. if you're attacking their army as your warp gates come up and then warping in their main, not near your army, then the reinforcements would be part of your army. just because you're choosing to attack them at a poor time (right as your warp gates are coming up) doesn't mean you can then choose to say you couldn't have possibly reinforced your main army. I personally feel that warping into their main is significantly easier to execute than warping in to support your army. Each to his own though. Typically speaking though, in a midgame pvz where you have 1000 minerals and no gas - 10 zealots aren't going to beef up your army at all. Wouldn't you agree that in that case it's better to mineral dump into their main that your army? I feel this has a time and place to be executed, it's not a cure all magic fix for any matchup - merely an option to amp up the pain in the mid game if circumstances permit.
What you say here is exactly where I think the primary usefulness in this lies. Mineral dumping.
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mixed emotions on this, ill explain why.
Anyone who denies that this is good is a total moron and should not be playing an RTS. Of course its a good idea.
However i think it doesnt work for protoss. Terran and zerg have amazing mobility and speed. Terran can drop your base, stim into a medivac and get away easily. Speedlings and ive even seen it with speed roaches, can run into expos, pick of nexus/cc/hatch or whatever and then run again.
Toss dont have many choices to do that. Stalkers are the fastest unit, but get destroyed by hydras roaches and lings if you can get a surround. And dont get me started on marauders.
I understand your logic. What good is warping in at the point of engagment? Either you are going to get rolled over, so any extra units will be wasted, or youre already going to kill him, again making the new units not as effective as they could be.
The fine line is knowing how the battle is going to end up. Being able to see both armies and make a snap call saying 'yes im going to win that' or 'shit i need to leg it' is pretty hard to do and getting it wrong could lose you the game if youre planning on warping in units in their base instead.
So many times ive been playing a zerg, killed his army and advanced into his 'base' (i mean some kind of centre point of his hatches and not his main base) just to get completely surrounded from all sides and lose.
another point is can you really afford to stop collosus or immortal production? you could say that one chronoboosted warp prism might only take 35 ingame seconds to build (no idea how long it takes) but chances are you could lose it or you might even want 2 to hit both his 3rd and main at the same time or alternating. And i wouldnt want to throw another robo just for prism production.
personally i would only do this in 2 occasions:
1. if i was so far ahead i knew i was likely to win. I have a massive unit/tech/upgrade advantage that i could 1-a and kill most his shit. So one warp in a terrans main to take out 4 rax and a factory, or taking out a zergs expo just to cut back production, just to put a nail in the coffin.
2. If i feel like im screwed. If my bases are mining out. If terran has a huge ball of units, or if zerg have alot of infestors/blings/broods (units that i have trouble countering, banes especially -_-) Mainly if i feel like im not gonna get back into the game with straight up play i might try one drop in the right place to finish him
im gonna try this out and see how it goes, hopefully it'll have some success. nicely constructed post btw, loks like alot of effort put into it :D
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On June 07 2011 05:37 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 05:31 Anihc wrote:
I haven't read the entire thread (only the OP), but beside the fact that this is a very potent tactic, I'd like to make 3 comments:
1. In terms of effectivness, vZ > vP > vT. Against Z, there's literally 0 risk and almost never a bad idea. Mid-late game zealots are useless in your main army and you're always limited on gas, and have plenty of extra minerals. And warping in anywhere is good. Zerg always has lots of undefended expansions for you to hit, and the main can be potentially a great target as well.
Against P, 1 of 2 things can happen - your opponent doesn't have warpgates ready and cannot warp in anything to defend, so he takes a lot of damage. His main army may gain a slight edge over yours, but the economic damage he takes will make it far more worth it for you. The other thing that can happen is that he does have warpgates ready, in which case he needs to warp in an equal or greater number of units to defend, so that when your main armies clash you'll end up ahead in that battle. In PvP defender's advantage doesn't really exist - if anything, it's usually attacker's advantage. The only reason why I think using this vP is slightly worse than vZ is because your robo build time is absolutely critical when keeping up in colossus wars, plus PvP usually involves low-econ games where every mineral does matter.
Against T, most expansions are guarded by planetaries, plus in most cases all of a terran's production facilities are located in the main (unlike zerg) so either you'll have to warp in a lot of zealots in the main to actually kill stuff, or he'll be able to defend it just by units popping out of barracks. Also zealots are a vital part of a Protoss ball against terran, so every unit you're leaving out of your main ball is weakening your main army. This isn't to say you shouldn't try this against T, because it certainly can deal a lot of damage in many circumstances.
2. You don't necessarily even need a warp prism! Throwing up proxy pylons in random places on the map, or putting a pylon right under someone's main and using an obs to warp in on top can be a much less micro intensive substitute than a warp prism. Especially in late game, proxy pylons are cheap, give you map control/vision, and don't take up robo build time.
3. In terms of what units to warp in, I agree that zealots and dts are best. But actually stalkers can be great in some circumstances: 2 that I can think of right away is harassing terran expos with planetaries - just put stalkers behind the minerals out of range of the planetary, but still in range to attack SCVs. This is so annoying for terran to deal with, especially if you have a few armor upgrades and then SCVs can't even kill those stalkers even if you don't micro them at all. The second is map dependent - some maps have cliffs behind the mineral line (think 3rd base on typhon, xel naga), which is perfect for placing a few stalkers on.
Good post. Thank you. I like what you said what Z>P>T effectiveness.. I agree completely. Though I do think warp prism is a lot more mobile and threatening than proxy pylon.
Yes warp prism is a lot better but like Plexa said in the OP, the main downside to this tactic is that it takes a lot of multitasking/APM to use. Proxy pylons take slightly less multitasking/APM.
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On June 07 2011 05:16 aZealot wrote:
Wouldn't a Colo drop backed up by 6 - 10 Zealots (depending on gates) be more effective? Colo to take the mineral lines and Zealots to take out tech structures?.
Colossus dropping, while it would be AWESOME seems to inject more risk into this strategy than is hoped for. In many cases, that one Colossus can and will make the difference in the much more important larger battle that is taking place out in the field. One Colossus is not superb alone - relatively weak, easily swarmed, etc. And even with a handful of zealots, it cannot be easily protected. Furthermore, the strategy in part depends on you, as the one doing the drop, your willingness to lose those (valiant) shock troopers. Colossus are to valuable to "throw away" like this and to vulnerable in the Prism to hope to safely retreat it that way (a handful of mutas, Blink Stalkers, or Vikings tear the Prism to pieces, though Speed would help).
...Immortals on the other hand.... >_>
PLEXA - I was curious to note that when considering when and where to Warp your shock zealots, you did not (I believe) mention the possibility of a multi-warp/drop. In your primary example, you noted target priority: Main, Natural, Army, Defensively, eventually settling on the Main as being generally the best choice.
However I am wondering about the possibility of the "Multi-Warp". I have not had an opportunity to test this, but I am forced to wonder about maximizing damage and whether or not warping 4 Zealots in the Main and 4 Zealots in the natural is more or less effective than 8 Zealots in the main. While this does require an extra Warp Prism, with the increased use of High Templar instead of Colossus, and the Age of the Archon upon us, this could be fairly nasty to deal with.
Pros of Multi-Drop:
-More damage potential: why damage one of his bases when you can get two?
-Panic Mode: Having to deal with one drop while managing a "dancing" army can be stressful enough, why not double their stress and double up?
-Force a choice: In many cases the Opponent won't be able to effectively respond to both, forcing them to make a hard choice as to what to defend (ie commit their forces to defending), allowing you to exploit the choice they didn't make by, for example, continuing to Warp in units at the natural if they chose to defend their main.
-Higher likelihood of a "Static Defense Overreaction: If I just got Multi-dropped, I personally would be much more likely to "panic" drop cannons at my bases and all future bases, spending resources that could be better allocated.
-Others?
Cons of Multidropping:
-Higher chance of doing NO damage: A larger concentrated group of Zealots can do more "burst" damage, and so even if your opponent is particularly reactive, you still may be able to snipe an important building or two. Not so much the case with only ~4 Zealots.
-APM: Not as limiting at top tiers of play, but still present at all tiers. Managing one drop while "dancing" your army about can be tough to do. Double that for the Multi-Drop.
-Cost: Warp Prism and Proxy Pylons aren't free.
-Robo Time: Doubles the amount of time you aren't building Colossus. [However, with a more Templar (High and/or Dark) centered strategy, that Robo that you used to build one Observer is vacant.]
-Probably more?
So Plexa, have you tried this? Success? Failure? I'd love to know why Multi-drops weren't considered and whether or not you think it is a valid expansion on your well developed concept?
PS Also, what about about an Immortal drops? They are "cheaper", hardy, and can effectively deal with Roaches and a defensively position Siege Tank with a little Zealot support.
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I didn't think someone could take the term warp prism harass and turn it into a huge post.
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one thign to note as well is that as a terran user, once zealots have charge, one of the key things that terran small armies does to win fights against zealots is to kite them backwards, any amount of micro you take away from the main battle, is going to be a victory for the protoss player. As far as I am concerned unless you're at a very high pro level, the amount to maintain macro, and micro on 2 fronts with terran stutter micro is insanely difficult/impossible. There's lots to this that sounds good and something I've always wondered why toss don't do more since terran are already "expected" to do it.
I think a key thing to remember here is that this is largely a mineral sink because both zealots and warp prisms only cost minerals, so even losing a drop, isn't as devastating as you'd expect. it makes the player play more safe, react to the fear of drops, etc. it's the same thing terran does to the other races when it drops a lot. Just because they can see it coming doens't mean it isn't doing it's job.
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EPT
