EPTAgainst terran I know this to be very strong, as chargelots just totally rip through MMM in low numbers, so doing this strategy and winning the main battle, even if very narrowly, will most likely win you the game. (Meanwhile winning a fight narrowly with a deathball against a terran going MMM otherwise often means the terran is in the lead, at least in my eyes, as the protoss will have lost your key gas units, the sentries, collossi and HTs, and you can't reproduce all of them on the same time)
[D] Protoss 'Shock and awe' - Page 3
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Theovide
Sweden914 Posts
Against terran I know this to be very strong, as chargelots just totally rip through MMM in low numbers, so doing this strategy and winning the main battle, even if very narrowly, will most likely win you the game. (Meanwhile winning a fight narrowly with a deathball against a terran going MMM otherwise often means the terran is in the lead, at least in my eyes, as the protoss will have lost your key gas units, the sentries, collossi and HTs, and you can't reproduce all of them on the same time) | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 07 2011 01:51 Tsuki.eu wrote: why did you call it protoss blitzkrieg? this is a pretty well known concept on rts, anyway i prefer to drop/warp in first to move his army away from the front then move with the main force into a good position, and start to siege an important expo to force and engagement. See above - taking name suggestions  nvm found an appropriate name  On June 07 2011 01:52 Theovide wrote: I think this can be incredibelly strong. Against Zerg though I'd actually rather go for the tech than the drones. If you saw the MMA (who is T, but same logic still applies I think) vs Losira matches in MLG you'd see MMA snipe spawning pools/baneling nests with drops meanwhile the armies are engaging several times, and winning straight up with it in at least one game. (MMA won the fight, but lost quite a bit of his army, and Losira was ahead in eco, normally that means Losira is in the lead, but with no spawning pool it means he didn't have no reinforcments and MMA could just push in and win). While this is true, gotta remember that when Terran does this he'll have reinforcements at home ready to exploit the lack of tech whereas if you do what I'm suggesting you will have minimal reinforcements as you're sending them right into his main. Won't be as effective as MMA made it, but it will stall for time! | ||
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mordek
United States12704 Posts
On June 07 2011 01:07 Megakenny wrote: Since I probably dont have the APM to micro my Zealots to kill all the workers at at base whilest microing my main army and macroing how do you suggest I go about using the Zealots I warp in? Patrol, hold position or just let em do whatever they want? When I warp in units to harass (or send DTs across the map for that matter) I just click move or rally the units into the mineral line. This way they walk where I want them, ignoring the first building they see and begin attacking once they get there. I can set the rally or move command and then pay attention to other things, as my APM is terrible. This works if your going for SCVs obviously. Not sure if you relay next to a reactor if they'll target it first or not. This technique has been working for me. | ||
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Perfect
United States322 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 07 2011 01:59 Perfect wrote: I think this strategy is easily countered if the opponent is paying attention. HOWEVER, what I really like about it is that it is relativly non standard and not expected. Therefore giving you the edge. Same goes for medivac drops, provided protoss is prepaired and scouting for them they do little to no damage. How is it easily countered? | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
However, if we're going for robotics and colossus. Is your plan to just add another robotics and pump warp prism/observers? I can see this be good, especially if we evolve this some and make it like one warp prism with drops on every hatchery, wouldn't that be the best option instead of warping in just in the main? I can see it be better perhaps PvP/PvT, but could also go either way. Also this thing is something that feels you need 3 bases for or perhaps more? I mean you seem to need some great economy to get this to work, because it's quite the huge gamble. Do you also research warp prism speed? | ||
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Quazy
Canada6 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 07 2011 02:02 eYeball wrote: Maybe I haven't been watching enough white-ra, but afaik his warp prism play isn't the same as this.This is something WhiteRa uses and calls special tactics. However, if we're going for robotics and colossus. Is your plan to just add another robotics and pump warp prism/observers? Dno. I feel that colossus play in general is easily countered and that colossus massing games are dumb. Yeah there is a time and a place for them, but ultimately you're going to be ending up with some gateway heavy composition and storm (unless you are making one big attack and hoping that that works). Generally, I find that you need around 3 bases for this to really get going since you need quite a few warpgates to get enough units into his main to be annoying.I can see this be good, especially if we evolve this some and make it like one warp prism with drops on every hatchery, wouldn't that be the best option instead of warping in just in the main? I can see it be better perhaps PvP/PvT, but could also go either way. Also this thing is something that feels you need 3 bases for or perhaps more? I mean you seem to need some great economy to get this to work, because it's quite the huge gamble. Do you also research warp prism speed? On June 07 2011 02:05 Quazy wrote: I don't know where this 'terran units are good in small numbers' mindset comes from. Sure this is true in the early game. But once you reach the stage where you have chargelots and upgrades, barracks units are really bad without medivacs. *shrug*This is an interesting concept, but I doubt it's practicality against Terran. From what I understand against Zerg you're looking to take out some economy until the drones run away, then go after tech. However Terran units are the best in small numbers and most if not all of their tech is going to be near their production facilities or even attached to them. Which makes me question how much damage you would actually be able to do. This will be fun to play around with though. Great writeup! | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Anyway, playing like this is imo the future of Protoss, and it's very bw-like. Terrans use harass all the time and Zergs have started doing it also, i don't see why we shouldn't. I think this might work a bit better in late (4+ bases) game, where having or not 8 ish zealots waiting back home after a battle isn't as gamebreaking as when you have 2 or so bases. Oh also..."you crush him army" sounds so very white-ra, very appropriate :D edit: regarding white-ra, look at his replay packs...i think it's in special tactics 1 here: http://white-ra.com/en/media/replays there's a PvZ on Shattered temple which he wins only through warp prism and blink harass, it's really cool | ||
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mordek
United States12704 Posts
On June 07 2011 02:07 Plexa wrote: I don't know where this 'terran units are good in small numbers' mindset comes from. Sure this is true in the early game. But once you reach the stage where you have chargelots and upgrades, barracks units are really bad without medivacs. *shrug* It's a popular stereotype but I agree, without medivac support and any upgrades on your gateway units, I think the Protoss will have the advantage. Also, like the updated name ^^ | ||
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Saishuuheiki
United States188 Posts
You want to have one or several of a list of things to strengthen the tactic: additional gateways (6+...the more units you can warp in at once the better. You don't want your warp-prism to loiter, that way you can warp in more later, or fly it to the next expansion and start on that when his army defends first attack) zealot speed, attack upgrade, or dark templars - all can be useful additions. Even if they have detection the attack for zealots is so high, 6 DTs can kill a lotta buildings quickly before units arrive multiple warp prisms: can be useful. You don't even have to use all at once. Maybe one of the bases is more defended than you thought...you can warp all your units at second prism. You're not commited to splitting your army like a terran or zerg would be. When do you want to use this? 1) slow down enemy attack. Massive marine ball incoming and colossi not ready yet? Have no fear, pull them back to defend their base to buy yourself some time (note: doing this before army leaves can waste money to put you behind) 2) terran / protoss is turtling 3) You have a better economy than them. Use this to attrition them and help keep them from expanding while you 'get more ahead' 4) They're spread out and can't defend multiple points. This may require 3-base, but some bases with a far natural or a slow army can still exploit this. Essentially the same rules apply to any other races harass. Used effectively can keep your opponent on their back foot. I feel this and pheonix harass are Protoss' two best choices, and this is far safer and more flexible (only 200 mineral commitment) | ||
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
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Perfect
United States322 Posts
I'll use the example of a Medivac drops vs Protoss. Most terrans will drop w/ one or two medivacs while using their main army to poke at the front against a protoss. If protoss has some well-placed Pylons in the pathing direction of the typical medivac drop and the protoss is paying attention to the minimap the drops can easily be dealt with. Now in the reverse roll, if a terran uses a sensor tower, scan or even supply depots/turrets like a protoss would use pylons/cannons to scout it properly, and have proper minimap control they could bring enough a small group of units, possibly supplemented by a few scvs from the mineral line to "deal with" it. I personally (having encountered similar drops before mid-game) peeled off one viking, 6 marines, one marauder and one medivac. I peeled off 1/2 of my mining scvs and dealt with the drop. After it was thwarted I promptly built a sensor tower to ensure i caught it sooner next time. In the case I’m referring too it was 6 zealots (supported by 6 WG) warped in because there was no part of my main that was not visible. My opponent could not warp in a second round of zealots to support the first as I had spotted it already. With that said, I'm not trying to argue, just trying to contribute to the thread, this is not a common strategy for protoss so I don’t see a terran being that well prepared for it. Thats why I say I think it can easily be dealt with IF prepared, with proper eyes on the minimap. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 07 2011 02:14 Perfect wrote: Okay in that case I agree with you. Proper recon with an observer is probably necessary to make sure you're hitting the right places against Terran. Let me rephrase my statement. I think it can easily be "dealt with" from a Terran perspective provided the Terran player is paying attention to the minimap. I'll use the example of a Medivac drops vs Protoss. Most terrans will drop w/ one or two medivacs while using their main army to poke at the front against a protoss. If protoss has some well-placed Pylons in the pathing direction of the typical medivac drop and the protoss is paying attention to the minimap the drops can easily be dealt with. Now in the reverse roll, if a terran uses a sensor tower, scan or even supply depots/turrets like a protoss would use pylons/cannons to scout it properly, and have proper minimap control they could bring enough a small group of units, possibly supplemented by a few scvs from the mineral line to "deal with" it. I personally (having encountered similar drops before mid-game) peeled off one viking, 6 marines, one marauder and one medivac. I peeled off 1/2 of my mining scvs and dealt with the drop. After it was thwarted I promptly built a sensor tower to ensure i caught it sooner next time. In the case I’m referring too it was 6 zealots (supported by 6 WG) warped in because there was no part of my main that was not visible. My opponent could not warp in a second round of zealots to support the first as I had spotted it already. With that said, I'm not trying to argue, just trying to contribute to the thread, this is not a common strategy for protoss so I don’t see a terran being that well prepared for it. Thats why I say I think it can easily be dealt with IF prepared, with proper eyes on the minimap. On June 07 2011 02:11 Teoita wrote: It's so good to see you posting again Plexa, your ideas are always amazing! To this day i still do that mothership mid-game build of yours in pvp just for the lols ^^ just for the lols? man with colo going out of style in pvp motherships are definitely where the matchup is going to end up :D | ||
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burn man
United States47 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 07 2011 02:21 burn man wrote: what happened to blitzcreig? This name is more appropriate | ||
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EternalSC
Sweden313 Posts
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JiYan
United States3668 Posts
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Selkie
United States530 Posts
I'll see if I have the replay of the game to provide details... | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10352 Posts
I miss the shuttle but he couldn't carry a whole round of units anyways. At least he could take a beating. How do you feel about carrying in two Templar with ready storms and warping in the round of zealots after? I suppose it makes your army trading business less likely to end in your favour and also puts another toll on your multitasking abilities but the possibility for damage is appealing. Thinking vs zerg mostly, it could do more damage. Pick up Templar and leave or make them an archon. Do you stick around for a second warp in round or save your prism? I can see when both options would be good. Thanks for the write up. please dont disappear completely forever. | ||
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