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On June 09 2011 07:59 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 07:13 Plexa wrote:On June 09 2011 07:10 Mediafriend wrote:
thank-you plexa! this is the best post I've seen in recent memory. the only one I feel will have a lasting effect on the game, you have made this protoss completely rethink his prism usage. so bravo on advancing the state of the game for toss! I feel like most posts are about how to beat the deathball as t or z, with all the creativity coming out of zerg. this has helped us immensely only time will tell if its as effective as it sounds like it will be, but I'm super excited to try! I think you are vastly over estimating how useful this post is  I've said it before, and I'll say it again... its really difficult to get right or even utilise (one of the reasons there are so few reps) but it's something to keep in mind going into the midgame/lategame. Protoss, however, should be thinking about ways to get psi matrix everywhere for warpins as it should be used more often. I'm thinking about building pylons in as many different "hidden" locations as possible and using that to reinforce (rather than rely on a prism). I'll let you know how that pans out Yeah, its basically a post about playing a harassy style as Protoss like Terran when Terran goes nuts with drop to build its 1-push-win-army or Zerg when Zerg goes mass muta against Terran or when Zerg goes roach drop vs Protoss. Its nice but I feel that it'll fall to map designers to make high level WP harass more useful than the current standard of giant unit ball or going straight air in most situations. Some of the blizzard maps are really good for it due to the massive amount of edge space and unopenness of the maps. Its a lot like the ridges/lack of ridges contributing to the scariness of muta harass in BW.
I find that harassing with blink stalkers while warping in chargelots in the main is pretty much "impossible" to hold.
Chargelots excel in high numbers vs MMM, but they also excel in small numbers. By using stalkers, you're forcing him to protect his expansions from the more mobile stalkers and to protect his main and buildings from all the zealots.
I think the warp prism is kinda squishy, but as long as youc ontrol it well it's okay.
What I do:
Get charge/blink, warp speed upgrade, and ground attack/armor upgrades.
Warp in a shitload of zealots into the main.
Attack with your mobile stalkers at another base.
Warp more units to attack another base.
Keep macroing, get an economy, and get the more gas-intensive units.
Win if he can't handle the massive amounts of gateway units or get really ahead in economy and tech because he can barely hold off the multiple attacks.
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Sometimes I wish that Desert Oasis was back in the map pool because Warp Prism play was so good on that map but then I remember that banshees exist and they kill all your hopes and dreams on that map.
Kulas was good for it too.
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Enjoyed this article, thanks Plexa..
I have incorporating WP drops a lot more, but always in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I have some ideas now ;-)
Cheers
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A zerg just called me cheesy for doing this, I wonder if he's never played against a terran? o.o
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I just did this vs a Terran in Meta close-air.
Although he beats back my main army, I constantly harass him with the left-over stalkers so he can't finish off my chargelots (in his main). I start pushing his 3rd with stalkers/archons when he moves out and he decides to stay with it.
I win eventually because I can still make units and he can't.
I had 3 warp prisms, one in his main, one near his 3rd, and one following my army. I really think that warp prisms are so awesome now. I win the basetrade, but imagine if it's a large map.. He wouldn't even be able to base race and he would probably crumble to the harass instead of trying a last-ditch effort to destroy my nexii.
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I tried this yesterday against a terran and I poked his front with my main army and pretended like I was going to attack (threw up 1 GS) while I had a warp prism in the back of his main and then I backed off and warped in 6 or 7 chargelots and they ripped his supply depots apart. I was able to pick off some of his reinforcements and make him supply blocked, I was then able to pump out more units while he had like 5 or 6 SCVs start building depots.
It worked great!
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White-Ra uses this technique in almost every game if you watch his stream  I really recommend everyone tune in to watch it in action.
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On June 10 2011 11:54 iChau wrote:
I just did this vs a Terran in Meta close-air.
Although he beats back my main army, I constantly harass him with the left-over stalkers so he can't finish off my chargelots (in his main). I start pushing his 3rd with stalkers/archons when he moves out and he decides to stay with it.
I win eventually because I can still make units and he can't.
I had 3 warp prisms, one in his main, one near his 3rd, and one following my army. I really think that warp prisms are so awesome now. I win the basetrade, but imagine if it's a large map.. He wouldn't even be able to base race and he would probably crumble to the harass instead of trying a last-ditch effort to destroy my nexii.
I'd be really interested to see that replay if you're willing to share.
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Thanks Plexa for this Thread! It was really inspiring and it helped me a lot with my mid and especially late game vT and vZ.
As us said especially againts Zerg this is brutal. When I am on 3 bases I fake push with my main army to draw the Zerg's attention, but I stay in a defensive position. When I see his army moving I warp in Chargelots and DTs in his main to snipe Warrens, Dens, Mounts, Spire and Caverns to prevent him from reinforcing. It's awesome!
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Hey guys, copy/pasted from the 'simple Qs & As' thread...
I had an idea I wanted to discuss but it doesn't seem worthy of its own thread, so...
PvT, 1base robo before expand is unpopular now because if terran goes for a FE build you are very behind in economy. Right?
But on maps with small ramps between main & natural (xel naga etc), I think gate->robo->gate->gate could be very very good vs FE builds. With the robo, make observer, immortal, PRISM and add a 4th gate instead of continuing immortals which are too slow to reinforce. Possibly you could skip the immortal entirely if you've already spotted a FE build, idunno what's optimal.
Load a sentry + probe + maybe another unit or two into the prism and send it into the terran main near-ish the ramp, while attacking the front with your immortal + stalkers + whatever else. Probe's job is to make a pylon, so you can move the prism to his mineral line when the pylon completes. If he doesn't see the prism or sends only a handful of units to deal with it, warp into his main, kill the units, and FF the ramp. If he sends many units into the main to deal with the prism, FF his units into his main (if possible), warp into the front and attack head-on.
If you're able to FF his ramp it's gonna be GG as you pick off his reinforcing units a few at a time. If you're able to draw his units far enough into his main that you can kill his bunkers, it's gonna be GG. So the question is, could a skillful terran who spots the prism be able to chase it away AND hold the front?
Obviously this two-pronged attack is going to have to hit around your 2nd-4th round of warpins, so that a single round of warpins will make up a significant % of your army. Later than that is def not gonna work.
Well, that's it. Viable?
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Best use of this strat is to draw attention of Zerg army at the front then split them in half when you can
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Nice! i will use this in PvZ!
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
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On June 11 2011 08:33 Keilah wrote:
Hey guys, copy/pasted from the 'simple Qs & As' thread...
I had an idea I wanted to discuss but it doesn't seem worthy of its own thread, so...
PvT, 1base robo before expand is unpopular now because if terran goes for a FE build you are very behind in economy. Right?
But on maps with small ramps between main & natural (xel naga etc), I think gate->robo->gate->gate could be very very good vs FE builds. With the robo, make observer, immortal, PRISM and add a 4th gate instead of continuing immortals which are too slow to reinforce. Possibly you could skip the immortal entirely if you've already spotted a FE build, idunno what's optimal.
Load a sentry + probe + maybe another unit or two into the prism and send it into the terran main near-ish the ramp, while attacking the front with your immortal + stalkers + whatever else. Probe's job is to make a pylon, so you can move the prism to his mineral line when the pylon completes. If he doesn't see the prism or sends only a handful of units to deal with it, warp into his main, kill the units, and FF the ramp. If he sends many units into the main to deal with the prism, FF his units into his main (if possible), warp into the front and attack head-on.
If you're able to FF his ramp it's gonna be GG as you pick off his reinforcing units a few at a time. If you're able to draw his units far enough into his main that you can kill his bunkers, it's gonna be GG. So the question is, could a skillful terran who spots the prism be able to chase it away AND hold the front?
Obviously this two-pronged attack is going to have to hit around your 2nd-4th round of warpins, so that a single round of warpins will make up a significant % of your army. Later than that is def not gonna work.
Well, that's it. Viable?
I tried this but it's very hard to pull off. The problem with early warp prism attacks imo is that you are investing 400m 100g to get one drop unit that hardly helps with anything else. Because of that the will simply have so much more units often that they can simply split and still survive.
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i have always been thinking about this. i play toss and would like to import the drop mechanics of terran. this is a half-drop mechanic so nice post
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this is actually briliant. Why doesnt the military hire pro starcraft players. Our wars would be so much more effective if we could just six pool but yes in all seriousness this was very well thought out. and this should definatly be watched for in the future. I do have to mention, why doesnt employ the nydus worm like this. It would be so useful.
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This is great because it brings in a new life to the warp prism that I stongly believe Protoss players need to use more.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 12 2011 21:25 TheLOLas wrote:this is actually briliant. Why doesnt the military hire pro starcraft players. Our wars would be so much more effective if we could just six pool but yes in all seriousness this was very well thought out. and this should definatly be watched for in the future. I do have to mention, why doesnt employ the nydus worm like this. It would be so useful.
Nydus worms don't work like this. Let me try outline the difference:
Warp prisms used in this manner are simply reallocating new resources to different parts of the map. You can have X units +Y more units per cycle, it just depends on where you want those additional Y units to go. We use the warp prism to choose where these addition Y units are being placed.
Nydus worms are different, the zerg army is always going to have X units and their reinforcements are collect at the rally point. In this sense, Nydus worms are reorganising existing resources. What the nydus worm does is increase the mobility of a Zerg army. It allows X units to get from A to B in no time. As zerg becomes more expansive, nydus's should be used to connect bases together and launch attacks on outlying expansions. The idea being that if you attack an outlying expansion with a nydus then the opponent must react by defending or countering. In either case, you use the Nydus worm to instantly get back to where you came from meaning you invested a minimal amount to shut down an expansion.
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1 viking split off the pack does wonders at shutting down warp prism harass.
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EPT
