EPTThe only problem was for me 4 gate fake expo, but it is preplanned, if he scouts my 3rd hatch its already too late to do it. I've worked a lot and managed to finally find a counter to it (roaches since 7:20 (if not scouted) cancel 3rd hatch, cancel tech and upgrade and mass units, you can hold 4 gate this way), getting 3rd hatch that fast is safe.
[G] Matiz's Broodlord oriented ZvP. - Page 2
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Matiz_pl
Poland163 Posts
The only problem was for me 4 gate fake expo, but it is preplanned, if he scouts my 3rd hatch its already too late to do it. I've worked a lot and managed to finally find a counter to it (roaches since 7:20 (if not scouted) cancel 3rd hatch, cancel tech and upgrade and mass units, you can hold 4 gate this way), getting 3rd hatch that fast is safe. | ||
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DarKcS
Australia1237 Posts
Evchambers are 25 mins cheaper but they are 4x as large so placing 40 is nigh impossible unless its a HUGE map and you have creep spread.. | ||
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DiaBoLuS
Germany1638 Posts
+ a blinkstalker coloss with 2/2+ or a coloss voidray gateway mix are fucking strong and cost effecient against any zerg-army, yes, even this one (not even talking about archon/ht add). so you still need the better or an even economy vs good protosses. dont get me wrong - your unitcombo is the best Z combo vs toss [baneling-drops can be great as well] - but the way to get it is what is important. your way seems to be greedy and only work on extremly far positions. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
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Thraundil
Denmark278 Posts
I have a few considerations. How does this build work out against those protosses who sits on their 2 bases and techs colossi right off their 3 gate expand, and make a 2-3 colossi gateway push with an abundance of forcefields around 11 mins? True, you can mass expand and get far ahead in econ but without the high tech units econ dont really matter. | ||
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Matiz_pl
Poland163 Posts
Results of our games can be posted here to prove (or not) that timing pushes are handleable with such greediness) @Thraundil If I see only 3 gateways from toss i switch into aggressive mode off of 3 bases, because Collosi will not have enough meatshield to be fully powerful, If he gets more gateways, then I just delay hive a bit and i hold it with roach ling hydra corruptor. It's dance of timings like in starcraft 1. Requires good scouting. | ||
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Thraundil
Denmark278 Posts
On May 19 2011 23:25 Matiz_pl wrote: @Thraundil If I see only 3 gateways from toss i switch into aggressive mode off of 3 bases, because Collosi will not have enough meatshield to be fully powerful, If he gets more gateways, then I just delay hive a bit and i hold it with roach ling hydra corruptor. It's dance of timings like in starcraft 1. Requires good scouting. I guess thats the beauty of Zerg play, adaptability  One more round of questions if you dont mind. The skipping of burrow+burrowmovement. I have tried to skip these upgrades in many games, but very often I find myself getting cut in half by those darned force fields and often such a mistake leads to a swift and painful defeat. How to you avoid having your forces chopped in two if the protoss pushes before you can get a reasonable amount of infestors and/or corruptor/broodlord? You do not mention carapace upgrades for ground troops. Is this because with the way protoss high tier units like immortals and colossi scale with their attack upgrades, making armor upgrades that much weaker for zerg? Or is it simply to get higher tech that much faster / have 6 more roaches to hold those 6-gate attacks? How about your upgrades on your flyers, and melee attack. The huge damage dealers are the broodlings, but you do not mention upgrading them. And you speak of no air upgrades either, do you start those as you start to reach the 5-6 bases and get the surplus of gas rolling? Because it seems to me that a highly +armor upgraded protoss ground force could withstand alot of unupgraded brood lord and broodling attacks. Apologies if I can see this in the replays, I'm sitting here pretending to work and as such i dare not open Starcraft II besides I would like to hear the reasoning behind it too. | ||
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Matiz_pl
Poland163 Posts
Well, I cut carapace upgrades, they arent that super important, afaik attack upgrades are better. I havent tried sneaking second evo, maybe it's doable but then you delay tech, choice is yours. I prefer to have faster broods. Atk upgrade to the air units on the other hand is very good, corruptors +2 attack actually rape voidrays, no need to rely on hydras as AA, their range isnt the best for this. About the Forcefield thing - fake few engagements, this way toss will waste some FF's or at least you will buy time and obviously engage on open fields and you should be fine, hydras with upgrade have nice range and they can shoot over FF's too. I usually win vs 6 gate MC's mass FF style, the strength of the flood of +1 atk roaches is really big. | ||
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mage36
415 Posts
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Matiz_pl
Poland163 Posts
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
However I'd like to disagree on the "Perfect Unit Mix" part. The perfect unit mix depends on your opponent's army. In this case, we're talking about the deathball. Not sure how you define the standard deathball, but I assume you mean either stalker/colo/void, or stalker/colo/void + 6-8 sentry (for the early/midgame, most protoss don't make sentries once their initial 6-8 die, they're too gas-intensive). I don't think roaches are good at all end-game, they have very bad dps for their supply cost. So cut them out of your late-game army. Ultras are much better here, they do more dps against armored units than roaches do, and they make your army immune to FF. Same with corruptors, ultras do far better damage vs colo. Broodlords aren't necessary when you have infestors for FG, this lets you cut out air entirely and focus more resources on ground units + upgrades. So against the standard protoss deathball, I think the perfect army is 5-6 ultras 5-6 infestors rest hydra/ling more stalker/colo = more ultra/ling, more voids = more hydras FG the entire ball but with priority on the voids, run ultras into colossus, focus down the voids with your hydras. In addition, you can NP colossus if there's too many, or use ITs if you misjudged his # of void rays. Roach/hydra/corruptor -> broodlords is a pretty good way to turn a strong mid-game army into a decent late-game army, but once you reach hive, using roaches & corruptors holds you back severely, and any good late-game army should not have either of these two units. Here's a couple of replays showing this army comp beating colo/void deathball (I'm pretty sure they're both 1.3.3): mTwDIMAGA v NrSRaNgeD - RaNgeD is top 50 masters EU MeYera v MYMSaSe - SaSe is top 16 GM EU | ||
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Matiz_pl
Poland163 Posts
I think it depends on the style you prefer. I don't think it's possible to incorporate ultras to my builid. Ultra infestor hydra ling is absolutely viable too indeed. But with broodlord zvp style, you can't have ultras, and if you mass too many hydras as support, you get raped like idra did, vs mc. I think the part of my guide is still viable, because it's probably the best way to support broodlords. If you like to play ultras late game, then this builid isn't really for you I guess. I've seen nice Ultra style guide somewhere on TL recently too. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
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TDC
United States197 Posts
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ShamTao
United States419 Posts
I don't know if it's mega-new, I've been seeing a lot more brood lord tech in my games. I'm not a big fan of 'patenting' and 'naming' builds after one's self, but that's neither here nor there. I really really like the synergy with the build and the crisp-er timings that come out of it. The fact that you obtain a fast +1 and are able to march to +2 and +3 naturally with the build is so cool, especially considering how roaches scale with their attack upgrades. So I'm a protoss player, trying to figure out overall good reactions to this build- If he opened stargate tech he'll have that semi-available, but how does this ball do against Colossus/Void ray deat balls? I know you'd have hydras, but the intense amount of gas that you're investing into corruptors, broodlords, roaches, and hydras might make this a weaker number than expected. Second, how should a Protoss player view his upgrades? Should we consider using a double forge strategy for upgrades? We'd probably be too strapped for gas if we went for upgrades AND colossus AND void ray, so I assume it'd be a more ground-centric army in that case. | ||
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kosai
20 Posts
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On May 20 2011 03:43 Matiz_pl wrote: Interesting post Blasiu. I define standard protoss deathball as Collosi with gateway units. IMO Void collo isn't that standard anymore, I dont face it that often. I think it depends on the style you prefer. I don't think it's possible to incorporate ultras to my builid. Ultra infestor hydra ling is absolutely viable too indeed. But with broodlord zvp style, you can't have ultras, and if you mass too many hydras as support, you get raped like idra did, vs mc. I think the part of my guide is still viable, because it's probably the best way to support broodlords. If you like to play ultras late game, then this builid isn't really for you I guess. I've seen nice Ultra style guide somewhere on TL recently too. It's not really about the ultras, it's more about getting fast melee upgrades and making use of zerglings & infestors. Once you get hive, you have the option of going BLs or Ultras depending on what you see, and they'll both be strong due to the fact that you have 2/2 upgrades with 3/3 coming soon after. If there's no stargate units, you can skip hydras entirely and go straight melee. ling/bane/infestor/ultra with drops will smash any ground army except for pure zealot/HT/archon, and even then it comes down to infestor v HT micro. However if you scout zealot/HT/archon, then once you get hive you can get broodlords instead of ultralisks. I think that both styles are viable depending on what protoss does in the mid-game, and it ultimately comes down to preference. However for the record I think that melee+infestor is stronger than roach/hydra/corruptor once you reach hive, mainly due to roaches' & corruptors' very low dps when compared to ling/bane/ultra. In addition, consider this: ling/bane/ultra/BL share the same upgrades (melee), meanwhile roach/hydra/corruptor/BL use different upgrade trees (range for roach/hydra, air for corruptor, melee for BL broodlings). | ||
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TigerKarl
1757 Posts
What i like to do in ZvP is trading armies with the protoss that is cost effective for me, that means Roach/Speedling and around 4-8 Infestors and try to keep the enemy army as small as possible, while teching to broodlords at the same time. After your first infestors are out you can easily afford the gas for Broodlords if you keep the Infestors alive. | ||
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Matiz_pl
Poland163 Posts
On May 20 2011 05:32 BlasiuS wrote: It's not really about the ultras, it's more about getting fast melee upgrades and making use of zerglings & infestors. Once you get hive, you have the option of going BLs or Ultras depending on what you see, and they'll both be strong due to the fact that you have 2/2 upgrades with 3/3 coming soon after. If there's no stargate units, you can skip hydras entirely and go straight melee. ling/bane/infestor/ultra with drops will smash any ground army except for pure zealot/HT/archon, and even then it comes down to infestor v HT micro. However if you scout zealot/HT/archon, then once you get hive you can get broodlords instead of ultralisks. I think that both styles are viable depending on what protoss does in the mid-game, and it ultimately comes down to preference. However for the record I think that melee+infestor is stronger than roach/hydra/corruptor once you reach hive, mainly due to roaches' & corruptors' very low dps when compared to ling/bane/ultra. In addition, consider this: ling/bane/ultra/BL share the same upgrades (melee), meanwhile roach/hydra/corruptor/BL use different upgrade trees (range for roach/hydra, air for corruptor, melee for BL broodlings). BL's also gain more dmg (they deal 20 dmg every broodling dropped) with air upgrades. The main role of Broodlords is actually not the dps, just having the ability to fight deathball from a good range and to force protoss to blink in. I think with +3 atk, roaches have actually nice dps, obviously not as good as ultras or lings, but it's okish. However hydras - their dps with +3 is just insane, while if you go ultra ling infestor hydra, you won't be able to get upgrades for hydras. Well, we just point out weaknesses of each compositions, you point out BL's minuses, I point out ultra cons . I think both are viable, the best proof to this is the fact that im (and it seems other GM players too) having success with this unit composition and dimaga has success with ultras. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
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