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I have not found a thread like this in Team Liquid so if there I am re-making a post, I apologize.
So as Zerg gets stronger and stronger mid to late game, some Terrans are not able to keep up with the Zerg macro monster. So, I have been facing Terrans who are willing to strike Zergs where they are weakest...the very early game.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/1781
So this is one of the players that demonstrate this. I faced against a Platinum Terran and I am Diamond. In close positions Shattered temple, I scouted, saw a barracks and supply depot. I assumed some heavy pressure and so I put down an earlier pool. My lings scout the call down depot and so I know that the game won't end for very long. Unfortunately, I was too late and around 4 minutes his marines and all of his scvs came to my base...
I fended his all in off with 2 lings left over and I was able to rebuild. However, the Terran's all in build allowed him to fly to the island and he called down mules. He all in-ed me again and I cleaned it up again. Unfortunately, I took heavier causalities and I have no drones while he has mules.
Would anyone give me any tips on how to fend this off and also detect something like this more efficiently? I know it can be done but for the mean time, I'm facing terran all ins in ladder a bit too much. Thank you
After watching the replay he had 3 barracks against me
Edit: Please ignore my in-game chat. I was rather pissed at my situation
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I'm not at home so I can't watch the replay, but what I don't understand is how you lost. You held an all-in, he should be dead. The whole definition of an all-in is that there is no transition, but you're saying you held (with lings to spare!) and he transitioned and won?
He lifted his base and used mules, why didn't you simply take an extra expand and tech? He had no SCVs left and used only mules, that's hardly enough to beat a 2-3 base zerg.
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haha that's the thing, I tried to recover my economy and I did expand. However, in the midst of my recovery. He still had an orbital and 3 rax. He called down mules, broke down the rocks with new rines, and attacked me. I guess Terrans can no longer "all-in" because they have mules. I do not know how he was able to muster an army
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I'm not at home so I can't watch the replay, but what I don't understand is how you lost. You held an all-in, he should be dead
He held the all in, but only had 2 zerglings. 0 drones, and a little over 100 minerals left.
Did you watch the replay yourself? You threw away 8 zerglings with a misrally right at the start
If you had 10 zerglings instead of 2 after the engagement, instant gg.
You should have had some spines up when you saw that he was going to early attack you - stick em close to the hatch, and you're laughing. Don't be afraid to throw down spines - especially for all-ins.
Same goes for the 2nd "all-in", where are your spines? You know he's going to early pressure you again (even if you didn't guess this, an overlord near the rocks would have spotted the hp loss)
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banelings roaches spines everything not lings ;o with banelings you can pressure him the best if they go for hellions or a fast expansions. Banelings should work better the lower you are. I make a macro hatch above the ramp if they do this sort of wallin to save some energy on my queens and nothing can get up a ramp with spines and and queen heal early game and a bit of ling support. you don't need the natural anyway before you hit 35 supply. And the macro hatch also helps if they go for banshees to snipe your queens to cripple your production. Also like to go +1 armor roaches against this lower wallin, the raks and the depot are really weak to snipes. And since i use this as terran (well not really for cheesing, just against these banelingbusts) i know that the tech is a bit slower because of the weak depot.
As a terran i do this just because i want to have a double wallin against baneling busts. (after knowing that people actually use this scout deny to cheese i know why i always get baneling busted when i do this wallin lol)
And i don't fear the snipe because i want my natural up really fast against a zerg, so the depot is save. (just a lil roach rush timing)
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On May 18 2011 22:53 XwipeoutX wrote:Show nested quote +I'm not at home so I can't watch the replay, but what I don't understand is how you lost. You held an all-in, he should be dead He held the all in, but only had 2 zerglings. 0 drones, and a little over 100 minerals left. Did you watch the replay yourself? You threw away 8 zerglings with a misrally right at the start If you had 10 zerglings instead of 2 after the engagement, instant gg. You should have had some spines up when you saw that he was going to early attack you - stick em close to the hatch, and you're laughing. Don't be afraid to throw down spines - especially for all-ins. Same goes for the 2nd "all-in", where are your spines? You know he's going to early pressure you again (even if you didn't guess this, an overlord near the rocks would have spotted the hp loss)
Oh.. I thought he didn't lose a single drone AND had 2 lings left... IMO, losing all your drones doesn't constitute holding an all-in.
So yeah, like above poster said, spines. When you see barrack and supply below ramp, always build a spine. If you see the supply drop, put down at least one more and start building lings.
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low ground depot is the indicator 4 this very powerfull all in. Also u had entrance 2 his base and screwed it just cuz 4 the scv herassment. ultra fast banes is a very good counter 4 this and have ur army 2 gether u attackd buildings wit ur lings while he killd ur eco and stuff
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you can't stop a terran all-in because terran is imba :D :D :D
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You didn't actually fend off his all-in, the all-in was for all intents and purposes succesful. It left you in a position with no income, hardly any units. In cases like this, terran recovers faster due to mules. You lost the game the moment the first attack hit, so I won't go into the game after that.
On the first attack:
Countering during the all-in was a mistake. You had your bling nest up in time, which pretty much destroys this push, but you chose to make your bling near the terran base, where there was nothing left to blow up. You should have kept all your lings in your base, made a baneling or two there, and you would have held his all-in with quite a few drones to spare. Also, loosing 12 lings on poor reinforcing paths is quite detrimental.
Also, your chatting was rather obnoxious :/.
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On May 18 2011 23:00 FeyFey wrote:
banelings roaches spines everything not lings ;o with banelings you can pressure him the best if they go for hellions or a fast expansions. Banelings should work better the lower you are. I make a macro hatch above the ramp if they do this sort of wallin to save some energy on my queens and nothing can get up a ramp with spines and and queen heal early game and a bit of ling support. you don't need the natural anyway before you hit 35 supply. And the macro hatch also helps if they go for banshees to snipe your queens to cripple your production. Also like to go +1 armor roaches against this lower wallin, the raks and the depot are really weak to snipes. And since i use this as terran (well not really for cheesing, just against these banelingbusts) i know that the tech is a bit slower because of the weak depot.
As a terran i do this just because i want to have a double wallin against baneling busts. (after knowing that people actually use this scout deny to cheese i know why i always get baneling busted when i do this wallin lol)
And i don't fear the snipe because i want my natural up really fast against a zerg, so the depot is save. (just a lil roach rush timing)
Please don't do this  You benefit from having the expansion down as soon as you have more than 16 drones and having the creep there to begin with helps tremendously. And you simply can't afford to make units out of 3 hatcheries + queen injects unless you're making pure lings/banelings/drones.
Personally when I see a low ground wall in I build 1 queen at my natural and a roach warren as soon as my pool finishes (15 hatch 16 pool) and start 3 roaches when the roach warren finishes. If I scout a 2 rax or some other variation of early pressure I can crush it by making a few more roaches but if nothing is coming then I can snipe his wall with my roaches or atleast force him to reveal his army size, which I can use to judge what he is doing and adapt accordingly. Also roaches are a nice counter to hellions so you're safe from that too  Just watch for banshees!
Note that this rush hits before the roaches would normally pop, so retreat all your drones to your main if you see an all in coming then engage with roaches + drones as soon as you have a good number of roaches. It's fine if you take damage on your expo hatchery, and if he's pulling all his scvs it's even ok if you let it die. If you survive with ~5 drones (1 mule = ~4 workers) the game is even; any more than that and you have a big lead.
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On May 18 2011 23:06 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 22:53 XwipeoutX wrote:I'm not at home so I can't watch the replay, but what I don't understand is how you lost. You held an all-in, he should be dead He held the all in, but only had 2 zerglings. 0 drones, and a little over 100 minerals left. Did you watch the replay yourself? You threw away 8 zerglings with a misrally right at the start If you had 10 zerglings instead of 2 after the engagement, instant gg. You should have had some spines up when you saw that he was going to early attack you - stick em close to the hatch, and you're laughing. Don't be afraid to throw down spines - especially for all-ins. Same goes for the 2nd "all-in", where are your spines? You know he's going to early pressure you again (even if you didn't guess this, an overlord near the rocks would have spotted the hp loss) Oh.. I thought he didn't lose a single drone AND had 2 lings left... IMO, losing all your drones doesn't constitute holding an all-in.So yeah, like above poster said, spines. When you see barrack and supply below ramp, always build a spine. If you see the supply drop, put down at least one more and start building lings.
Are you sure? xD
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haha a'ite! I will try to micro my drones around instead of having them fight. Having no econ after the first fight was what killed me and prevented me from getting a spine as I was trying to get more drones :/
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siigh, I guess in order to get an early baneling nest, I have to 11 pool or something
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On May 19 2011 06:12 Tendou wrote:
haha a'ite! I will try to micro my drones around instead of having them fight. Having no econ after the first fight was what killed me and prevented me from getting a spine as I was trying to get more drones :/
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siigh, I guess in order to get an early baneling nest, I have to 11 pool or something
no, changing your build drastically from a 15 hatch or 14 gas / pool into 11 pool just because a cheese may come is not the zerg way.
Besides all zergs scout this stuff when its too late to do such a switch such an overreaction towards bottom ramp rax wall is not what any good player would advocate.
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On May 19 2011 06:20 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 06:12 Tendou wrote:
haha a'ite! I will try to micro my drones around instead of having them fight. Having no econ after the first fight was what killed me and prevented me from getting a spine as I was trying to get more drones :/
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siigh, I guess in order to get an early baneling nest, I have to 11 pool or something no, changing your build drastically from a 15 hatch or 14 gas / pool into 11 pool just because a cheese may come is not the zerg way. Besides all zergs scout late such a reaction towards bottom ramp rax wall is not advicable.
Against T scout with your 12th worker close position (for 9 ovie, use 13th worker if you extractor trick), and if you see a wall on the low ground go pool first and build 2 spines. Those spines in the right position, a few lings, and a few drones should hold the attack.
On a map where there is no real choke to your natural (metalopolis) cancel the hatch since it will be a royal pain to hold on to, and as you are fighting him pop 2 more spines down. These will be to replace the other spines if you lose them. If you do not lose the other spines, just cancel them. I will post a replay of me doing this when I get back home.
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If you want to be really secure against this on maps that have dangerous close positions spawn I'd make an argument for a 12 scout as Bair just said and throw down a 14 gas/14 pool if he spawns close and you see the wall off.
After that get the bling nest before speed and morph around ~4 blings as soon as he you see him moving out (if you can scout outside of his base, otherwise you'd probably need to do this preemptively).
(From what I've gathered from the replay you would have had time to have blings in time even with the pool first and then gas, however you opted for speed first)
If you don't scout close positions you can throw down a hatch first and go 15/15/14~ and just get the bling nest before speed and it shouldn't be much of a problem to hold off, might need some drone/ling kiting a couple of secs if the blings aren't finished when he gets to you.
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Hey again Tendou... easiest way I have seen people counter this is (1st scouting as you did), but then to essentially throw down a few spinecrawlers at your natural the instant it finishes. Pull drones and use whatever units you have at your disposal.
The Terran is most likely pulling ALL of his SCVs, so literally all you need to have is 1 drone at the end of the battle and you will come out with the win.
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On May 19 2011 08:12 Capteone wrote:
Hey again Tendou... easiest way I have seen people counter this is (1st scouting as you did), but then to essentially throw down a few spinecrawlers at your natural the instant it finishes. Pull drones and use whatever units you have at your disposal.
The Terran is most likely pulling ALL of his SCVs, so literally all you need to have is 1 drone at the end of the battle and you will come out with the win.
The OP states that the Terran calls down mules at the island. He also does this in the replay. So, 1 drone =/= 0 scvs with mules.
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On May 19 2011 06:20 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 06:12 Tendou wrote:
haha a'ite! I will try to micro my drones around instead of having them fight. Having no econ after the first fight was what killed me and prevented me from getting a spine as I was trying to get more drones :/
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siigh, I guess in order to get an early baneling nest, I have to 11 pool or something no, changing your build drastically from a 15 hatch or 14 gas / pool into 11 pool just because a cheese may come is not the zerg way. Besides all zergs scout this stuff when its too late to do such a switch such an overreaction towards bottom ramp rax wall is not what any good player would advocate.
haha Sadly yeah, but iono. I think that if I scout a supply depot for a wall. I'll baneling bust it. If I don't then I can continue the macro zerg way
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On May 19 2011 08:12 Capteone wrote:
Hey again Tendou... easiest way I have seen people counter this is (1st scouting as you did), but then to essentially throw down a few spinecrawlers at your natural the instant it finishes. Pull drones and use whatever units you have at your disposal.
The Terran is most likely pulling ALL of his SCVs, so literally all you need to have is 1 drone at the end of the battle and you will come out with the win.
ugh, That's not really the case. Like in the replay, I "held off" his all in and I began to rebuild my drones. Even though he had nothing, he just flew to the blocked off expos and MULE-d up. The "second all-in" was when I overproduced lings so I couldn't reproduce a drone. But even losing everything again, move to other expo and mule.
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You were on close positions, so you would have held easily on any normal rush distance. However, when you do have the misfortune of getting close positions, I've found that you need to be extremely proactive with zergling scouting and poking up ramp (if you can), and also can't be greedy on drones because the fact that ur mining off 2 base is already more efficient than his one.
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This is quite a specific build popping up in the last week. the indicator for certain is the calldown supplies. once this happens 2 spinesand nothing but lings. both queens down, and the most important part: every last one of your drones working for a surround on the marines
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hey i think you did fine, rember you are allowed to lose and to be honest after rage subside you know where you went wrong, all cheese is counterd by good macro and precise timing.
Your scouting was on par, very good.
Your preperation and reactiön was good.
The basics falterd jue to panic, so keep calm wade your time.
Rally, keep unit all alive till your confident you beat in a easy fashion.
Think about spines or fast banes/roaches, only need 3 to 1 shot units.
I bet you'l beat this next time on the ladder.
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If you scout the Wall-Of at the bottom of the choke, watch out for Cheese...
The bottom Wall-Of is really weak against a roach push, so terrans prefer walling of the top.
I saw Catz pulling of the 'Catz-Build' in the NASL against Brat_Ok, who walled of at the bottom.
He easily won that game by pushing with his roaches and no queens.
As for me, when i scout a bottom wall-of, I dont build my 15 Hatch and go 15 Pool instead, immediately throw down the Roach Warren when Pool finishes and get them Roaches really fast.
If hes not all-in and u interpreted the bottom wall-of wrong, u still can punish him with ur Roaches and throw down ur Hatch during that.
The bottom wall-of is something u should be happy about 
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haha Thanks everybody! Spines and lings are very good for defense. I am just a little concerned about the build time if they can finish before he comes up my base.
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that happened to me one time too.
The problem is that it is so hard to know how many drones you can pull off and afford to lose to defend this all-in and still be ahead.
I just finshed watching the replay 3 times, one with just your view, once just his view and once everyone's view
First mistake is that you didn't scout what was inside his main base, stay in there for longer could given you more hints of what's coming.
You saw his supply depot at low ground should suspect something, but the bigger concern is the enhanced supply depot. (you should totally suspect something is coming because your opponent is most likely not going to be wasting energy on supply cap and he shouldn't be at this early in the game)
you had a good plan of baneling bust, the iniital 4 lings however, I feel that you could have spotted the scvs and marines a few seconds earlier. which you could then rally your production units in proper location. and if you tried to work on his supply depot a bit, it will pressure him to show how many marines he has.
you also should have immediately pull back any lings that is close to your base. quite a few lings were wasted.
If you have kept the first 4 initial wasted lings alive, they would have speed by the time they arrive your base
quite a few more lings were wasted when they hatched, through it is almost unavoidable
the second push you should have been prepared better, I don't like that expansion placement because it is going to be under heavy pressure. Your overlord were in good position checking the rocks but I don't think you realised they were breaking it down.
The bigger problem imo is that when you saw that amount of marines that killed your overlord, knowing it is very close positions, you should have pump some lings out.
You should have treated it as one base terran with 3 rax, what is scary about it? huge marine push pressure.
For most of that time you were droning up, which is ok but you always should be backed with an army of relative equal size to defend it.
I think you underestimated how big it costed him for the initial scv marine all in, you just were ahead, not by a huge margin but you were.
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I get down 2-3 spine or get fast banelin nest.
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EPT
