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Active: 729 users

Hold Position, Attack-Move, Patrol

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Hawkke
Profile Joined January 2011
United States41 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-16 20:13:20
May 16 2011 16:28 GMT
#1
Which attacks fastest? We knew what to do in BW, why has no one measured for SC2 yet?

This is the question Artosis asked here: Twitter.

I facetiously answered hold position, because I always use hold when I do a run by with lings in team games. With my limited APM, I found this most helpful to get some damage done. But at high level games with enough APM to respond quickly and either move workers or get attacking units in time to defend, it will be different.

So I accepted the challenge when Artosis replied back with a request for a link.

I decided to go into Unit Test Map by SuperFerret and test Attack, Hold, Patrol with these units:

21 Workers for all Three races on minerals.
1 DT
4 Zealots (no charge)
8 Marines (no stim)
6 Speed Lings

Each unit had 10 seconds to kill workers, this time is arbitrary and allows most units to get a few attacks off. Also the count of units is based on:

1 DT, usually keep them separated to maximize scans and your investment.
4 Zealots, enough to carry in a warp prism.
8 Marines, medivac.
6 Speed Lings, enough to not merit a large investment and a good counter when opponent is moving out.

Now the map has a different mineral patch setup than other maps, but figured with 21 workers it would create a good saturated scenario. The test has these standards:

Hold position was directly in the middle of the worker line where it maximizes amount of potential kills.

Attack move was done by moving next to base, then attack Move from left of base into the middle.

Patrol was similar to attack move, from directly left of base to patrol to the right and back in the middle of mineral line.


Below are my graphs to show which is best.

[image loading]

With this graph in place, we can come to these conclusions from the test.

1) Range units are ideal, probably 4 hydra's in an overlord will do more damage then 6 slings.
2) On ROI, 6 slings are the best, marines second, and 4 zealots third. (Based on 150 minerals for 6 lings, speed 100/100=250/100. Marines = 400+100/100=500/100)
Now this statement needs an explanation. DT's while probably having the biggest ROI potential, in a controlled environment was not the most cost effective with all the tech cost associated with getting 1 DT to a mineral line.
3) Attack Move and Patrol will generally be the best choice, now I did notice that hold position caused more units to be damaged than attack move, I do not think it's that relevant to this testing.

In closing, using attack move after getting units into position will be the best choice when dealing with ranged units and normal saturation. If an overly saturated based and melee units, hold position will be best.

This is my first informative post, so hope my organization makes sense. Any feedback much appreciated.

edit1: Changed graph to have a legend, so easier to read. Amove/Patrol are essentially the same exception of Speedlings.

edit2: I realize I am a nooblet, this does not answer Artosis question, I will now work on that as well.
terence158
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia64 Posts
May 16 2011 16:55 GMT
#2
That graph is somewhat hard to read. Not to flame, just to constructively criticize.

Because you aren't using a continuous variable across the X-axis, you should not use a connected line graph. Probably a histogram or simple dot plot would be better, and perhaps put the title in colour to match the key. Also, why not use 16 lings as that is equivalent cost to 4 zealots and 8 marines?
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
May 16 2011 17:02 GMT
#3
i dont believe artosis was necessarily referencing units in a mineral line but micro during a battle. Often move patrol move would have benefits with some units in micro situations where the same unit in move attackmove move would do worse than if patrol was used
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
ComaDose
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada10357 Posts
May 16 2011 17:08 GMT
#4
I also believe he was referencing the time it takes to attack the first time. (split second)
Such as vultures fire more rapidly and slow down less when using patrol micro.
BW pros training sc2 is like kiss making a dub step album.
ODKStevez
Profile Joined February 2011
Ireland1225 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-16 17:11:33
May 16 2011 17:11 GMT
#5
The picture won't load for me for some reason. =/
Luppa <3
Anorae
Profile Joined June 2010
United States36 Posts
May 16 2011 17:12 GMT
#6
On May 17 2011 01:28 Hawkke wrote:

1) Range units are ideal, probably 4 hydra's in an overlord will do more damage then 6 slings.



I would imagine that 4 hydra's would do more damage, but they are also much, much more of an investment (just the overlord itself to bring them could cost 2/3 of what 6 lings would cost you if you lose it...).

I think testing with only 6 lings is sort of too few to be informative.

Interesting stuff though
BinxyBrown
Profile Joined December 2010
United States230 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-16 17:19:20
May 16 2011 17:17 GMT
#7
You should just do separate graphs, that one is really sloppy and hard to read, it isn't at all like a traditional graph. I would do 3 graphs, one for each unit and use bar graphs for how many probes killed.

I haven't tested any of this, but from what I've seen in videos and in my experience with the game in general I would think that all of them would be the same for ranged units, and for melee units hold position would probably be the same as well if in range. People need to realize that the game is programmed much better than BW was, standards have increased a lot and error checking is a lot more automated than it used to be as well. I am sure that there are some micro tricks that will be more efficient than other, and maybe some abuses like the old 7% mineral trick that was patched out, but for things like attacking via patrol or amove I am sure blizzard made them function similarly based on distance to units.

Banelings are like Ice Climbers if they grab you... your dead.
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
May 16 2011 17:21 GMT
#8
On May 17 2011 02:08 ComaDose wrote:
I also believe he was referencing the time it takes to attack the first time. (split second)
Such as vultures fire more rapidly and slow down less when using patrol micro.


Ah yes this too but I believe this doesnt change due to the need to see the whole attack animation and also the speed decrease before speed increase being coded into the game better than it was in BW
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
thurst0n
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States611 Posts
May 16 2011 17:23 GMT
#9
Thank you for putting time into this, can you test in battle with some normal compositions? Like marines kiting zealots or something like that.

I think the problem is it comes down to the situation and player skill.

does anyone move lings to a mineral line to put them on hold position? If the probes go too far away they no longer get attacked (as you can see in the results), it seems patrol does the best job. How is Patrol differant from attack move in the first part of the path.

If I tell a stalker to attack move across the map, and then patrol across the map, what traits will be differant about the movement? I know it will come back after it makes it across, but i'm talking about just the initial movement before it tries to return.
P.S. I'm nub. If you'd like you can follow me @xthurst but its not worth it ill be honest
Hawkke
Profile Joined January 2011
United States41 Posts
May 16 2011 17:26 GMT
#10
I am using 6 slings, as the investment of 16 lings in regards to larva(8 total) is a high cost for an unknown ROI. While 6 slings can be a great counter to a forth coming push. This is based on mineral line harrass. If Zerg use 16 slings then I will change it, but in pro match ups, generally its very few.
whatthefat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States918 Posts
May 16 2011 17:26 GMT
#11
The benefit to hold position in a mineral line is that if the workers are left mining the zerglings will not go running after nearby army units (as they would under other commands).

But as ZeromuS said, I don't think this is what Artosis was referring to.
SlayerS_BoxeR: "I always feel sorry towards Greg (Grack?) T_T"
Hawkke
Profile Joined January 2011
United States41 Posts
May 16 2011 17:27 GMT
#12
On May 17 2011 02:02 ZeromuS wrote:
i dont believe artosis was necessarily referencing units in a mineral line but micro during a battle. Often move patrol move would have benefits with some units in micro situations where the same unit in move attackmove move would do worse than if patrol was used


Hrmm, if this is the case, then damn it.. I need to accept challenge again. I thought he meant in regards to mineral line harrass. Guess I deserve that, for having that in my mind.

Anyone else realize they have way too many starcraft related thoughts in their minds..
tehemperorer
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2183 Posts
May 16 2011 17:28 GMT
#13
Great post, I got the information from the map and understood what you were testing. Thanks!
Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers.
SnowSC2
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States678 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-16 17:37:24
May 16 2011 17:35 GMT
#14
the point of using hold position with lings is so they dont run off to attack other things.
in testing hold position with lings, of course it wont be as effective.
MoreFaSho
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1427 Posts
May 16 2011 19:21 GMT
#15
This is a great attempt and I encourage you to do these things in the future, but I'm not sure you're answering the right question.

I'm pretty sure artosis was asking which fires quickest from the command and which is most effective when you're doing stutter-step micro or other similar types of micro. So the marine test in this case might be a reasonable test, but still not quite right.

If they a-move, hold position, and patrol all have the same reaction speed then you would expect patrol to do the most damage because it's going to have to spend the least amount of time on average acquiring a new target.
I always try to shield slam face, just to make sure it doesnt work
LovE-
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1963 Posts
May 16 2011 19:35 GMT
#16
Yeah, he was referring to the patrol micro in BW.
LovE.311 (NA) || @LovE_Sc2
Ziddletwix
Profile Joined October 2010
29 Posts
May 16 2011 20:49 GMT
#17
Interesting and valid question. A few points though.

Because the x axis isn't continuous, connecting the points is just confusing. Leave them as points.

But most importantly, some of the numbers are a bit hard to draw conclusions from. for instance, yes, 8 marines is a much better drop then 6 slings. But you can't really say "ranged is better" because 6 slings are worth 150 minerals, 8 marines worth 400. And yes 4 Hydras would be better then 6 slings, but 4 Hydras is a way more signifigant force then 6 slings. 12 roaches would be probably better than 4 Hydras but that doesn't mean much.

But mostly I think 6 slings is bizarrely few. If I plan on counterattacking a mineral line, I'd probably send at least 10-12. It's also much more in keeping with the investment of your other drop examples.
Coriolis
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1152 Posts
May 16 2011 20:56 GMT
#18
Seems like patrol is the best option in almost all cases. And now that we can remap keys patrol can be mapped to Q for easier usage.
Descolada in everything not TL/Starcraft
Oreo7
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1647 Posts
May 16 2011 21:41 GMT
#19
I would imagine hold position goes up as saturation increases.
Stork HerO and Protoss everywhere - redfive on bnet
adeezy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1428 Posts
May 16 2011 22:39 GMT
#20
I always assumed hold position was best because when the enemies attacking units come into play don't your units switch priority to them?
I asked my friend how the ratio at a party was, he replied. "Let's just say for every guy there was two dudes."
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