EPT[D] PvZ 2g-forge Expand, Hallu first - Page 3
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
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FenneK
France1231 Posts
I'll try this out and report back. | ||
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KotaOnCue
United States180 Posts
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IzieBoy
United States865 Posts
On May 15 2011 19:42 KotaOnCue wrote: I really like the idea of this build of getting Hallu first before warpgates. Another thought I've had with this is do a really fast blink stalker build with one sentry to hallu out a phoenix or colossus to get vision of opponent's high ground and then blink your stalkers up into his main and wreak havoc since most zerg won't have their army or any defense inside their base. I've also thought about doing something similar to that in PvT and PvP because getting 5-6 stalkers into their main can definitely cause problems and with faster vision, the attack can come a lot faster and be a lot stronger than most other fast blink stalker play. Just a thought to play around with if anybody would like to try it out. a damn good transition sir btw, warp gate isn't that necessary with good macro  although it does bring out one extra round of units as well as shave the distance travelling by around 30 secs... a full minute gained... | ||
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dementrio
678 Posts
On May 15 2011 18:27 Drowsy wrote: Just speculating, but what advantages do you think this has over 2-3 gate +1 stargate expand builds? Those seem to solve the roach/ling allin problem pretty convincingly, and set you up for cruncher style play. Even if you don't get any overlord/queen/drone kills, just forcing spores, insulating from mutas, controlling towers, and shutting down roach/ling early allins seems worth the cost of 1-2 voidrays and a phoenix. I don't get where people got this idea that stargate or dt expand are safe against roach ling "allins". They're not. The whole concept of a stargate or dt expand is flawed, since it's impossible to hold your expansion if you don't actually win with the dts or voidray. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On May 15 2011 21:46 dementrio wrote: I don't get where people got this idea that stargate or dt expand are safe against roach ling "allins". They're not. The whole concept of a stargate or dt expand is flawed, since it's impossible to hold your expansion if you don't actually win with the dts or voidray. Yeah, this. You need a lot of cannons or else you'll just die to the roach/ling all-in surprisingly. Although roaches and lings can't shoot air, does it matter when you only have one void ray vs like 20 lings and 8 roaches? They can probably destroy half your base before that one void ray kills anything. | ||
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IzieBoy
United States865 Posts
On May 15 2011 21:53 iChau wrote: Yeah, this. You need a lot of cannons or else you'll just die to the roach/ling all-in surprisingly. Although roaches and lings can't shoot air, does it matter when you only have one void ray vs like 20 lings and 8 roaches? They can probably destroy half your base before that one void ray kills anything. i second that too... although i'm more hesistant to say it definitely cannot block a roach/ling all in... i think there was this newb game i watched in observer 1v1 where the P went mothership and got roach/linged... not sure if it was an all in, but yea he managed to hold it and pwn with mothership and void... barely though so a tad disappointing XD void or immortal ... hmm what if it were close by air? can someone verify this on the unit tester? immortals deal more dps but gah...voids...sounds fun lol | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On May 15 2011 21:57 IzieBoy wrote: i second that too... although i'm more hesistant to say it definitely cannot block a roach/ling all in... i think there was this newb game i watched in observer 1v1 where the P went mothership and got roach/linged... not sure if it was an all in, but yea he managed to hold it and pwn with mothership and void... barely though so a tad disappointing XD void or immortal ... hmm what if it were close by air? can someone verify this on the unit tester? immortals deal more dps but gah...voids...sounds fun lol No, I think we're talking about the roach/ling all-in with 8 roaches and 20 lings that hits at around the 6:30 mark, a couple seconds after the expansion starts with the 3 gate sentry expo build. | ||
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BlaaBlaa
United Kingdom19 Posts
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Ifrit
Germany42 Posts
On May 15 2011 07:32 travis wrote: because in 3gate sentry expand you haven't been constantly chronoboosting probes. Actually I always thought this is the right way to play with the 3 Gate expand? oO I've been using it for several months now and I always dedicate every single one of my CBs on Probes unless I smell cheese/all-ins (no hatch at expansion/massive amounts of Lings, very early Pool or 7RR) up until the Forge is done which is when I will start CBing upgrades+Probes. What else is supposed to be CBed with the 3 Gate expand build, Warptech or Sentries? | ||
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Meff
Italy287 Posts
On May 15 2011 09:37 travis wrote: only 2-3 sentries are actually able to hallucinate, which is 4-6 extra zeals (huge difference in army size). most sentries have between 50-100 energy. even nestea wouldn't be able to click through all the sentries and find out the zealots were hallucinated that way. Well, you don't need to click the sentries to see that most have no energy; you just need to display their healthbar (whether it be by having them always on or by pressing alt to check). Sentries have 5 mana boxes and each of them represents 40 mana, so that's actually pretty easy to check. So... assuming the build you're presenting does become popular (or that you use it more than once against the same opponent), that could be a giveaway. That said, P also has the possibility of making a genuine zealot/sentry push with sentries which have depleted energy, so Z cannot conclusively determine that the zealots are hallucinated by seeing low energy stores. | ||
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See.Blue
United States2673 Posts
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LOLingBuddha
Netherlands697 Posts
I basically feel like as soon as i put down my expo i am dead. even if i build up a bit of a force first. | ||
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BjC
England181 Posts
I will have to try this sometime as i am majorly struggling vs Zerg nowadays, where before it was my best matchup. I basically feel like as soon as i put down my expo i am dead. even if i build up a bit of a force first. It certainly seems that alot of protoss are really struggling with zerg all in's these days. i know i am. Its funny how the game changes even when nothing is really changed balance wise. I tried this build and i like how many sentries you get quickly and the early vision you get, as i would struggle to see what build the zerg would do after he gets queen n lings out and before observer is done. This solves that and makes you reasonabily safe to get that expo up. But if the zerg really wants to kill you at that point and keeps sending units, you will die if you make even the smallest FF mistake. The halu pheonix scout can help tho as you can scout for the all in comming and get extra cannons. This build wont make you feel any safer than the 3gate sentry expo and you will still be feeling insecure for a little bit when your expo goes up, but it will give you more of a heads up on what is comming if you time your scouting halucinations right. I feel the protoss are at a disadvantage at the moment as the zerg get a free hatch up most of the time and then can get instantly aggressive with the extra lavae or drone up very quickly. It takes protoss a long time to feel that they can move out and expanding is very risky. Im still looking for a safer build that doesnt give the zerg such an economic lead and i still feel that the sentry builds are so fragile unless you play perfectly. I miss those sentry's from the beta, I built those bad boys even to counter mutas. lol | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
While i don't disagree that Hallucinations have some potential, i think it isn't really a more favorable situation than 3 Gate Sentry Expand. Usually your safe on one base, so the problem is setting up a Expansion fast and safe wasting energy on Hallucinations early doesn't seem like such a good idea in that regard. | ||
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DuckS
United States845 Posts
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BjC
England181 Posts
well Sentrys lack DPS, that why it works so great, even if you can trade all your units against the sentrys you have basically won the game right there, if you can deny the Nexus for some minutes your getting way ahead, just make sure you don't die to something silly. Yup, thats why alot of zerg are having alot of success vs protoss at the moment i think. They are learning that a unit trade in the early game far benifits them than the toss. Also zergs have gotten alot better at holding off the one base all in 4gate of the protoss, so forcing them to start trying to play macro games with zerg, but its really stacked in the zerg favour early game if the toss wants to expand. Allin and win or unit trade and then mass drone as cant be attacked. Win / Win either way unless the protoss plays perfectly with forcefields. Kinda sucks when they can A move into you that you have to be alot better than them just to live. Thats kinda how it seems at the moment, but i will keep trying this build as the halu really does give you abit more reaction time to prepare. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On May 15 2011 22:47 Meff wrote: Well, you don't need to click the sentries to see that most have no energy; you just need to display their healthbar (whether it be by having them always on or by pressing alt to check). Sentries have 5 mana boxes and each of them represents 40 mana, so that's actually pretty easy to check. So... assuming the build you're presenting does become popular (or that you use it more than once against the same opponent), that could be a giveaway. That said, P also has the possibility of making a genuine zealot/sentry push with sentries which have depleted energy, so Z cannot conclusively determine that the zealots are hallucinated by seeing low energy stores. Well, he hallucinates during/right before the fight iirc. You can't get out overseers fast enough when he just hallucinates right away during an attack. If he hallucinates from across the map, sure, you can tell that he's doing a fake push. However, if he's in front of your base with full mana, and all of a sudden he comes in with hallucinated zealots, it doesn't matter if you know because you can't get detection fast enough. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Hallucination that quickly is just too early, your scouting probe can tell what's up in the early game and you hardly have energy to waste from your sentries then. Just go warpgate -> hallucination but chrono your cybercore alot, hallucination will come out quick enough for 2 base roach/ling pushes but you will have early warpgate which is just neccesary to make stalkers quickly enough. Not chronoing your gates is fine as you are building pure sentries early anyways.. Simply put, hallucination before warpgate is NEVER worth it. | ||
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CrAzEdMiKe
Canada151 Posts
On May 15 2011 18:12 W2 wrote: Are you sure this can hold well executed roach ling all ins? Because using halluc means you are down 2 FF's, plus 2gate without warpgate seems kind of low on units. And, that early phoenix tells the zerg you have no warpgate tech, and he does not have to worry about voids/pheonix/dts/blink/4gate. I guess that means you are relying on good cannons since you have little units. What if a zerg is good at isolating them with roaches? What if a zerg makes 20 lings (doesn't put him that much behind) and keeps denying cannons from going up? You might have to force leapfrog many cannons, and delay your expo by a lot. Actually, you know what I am really frightened of if I use this build.. is the warp gate timing. It is so late, it might actually be enough time for a zerg to saturate 2 base and start massing roaches on you (he can do it without worrying about holding voids/dts/blink stalkers.) First off, I find that there are a lot of "What ifs" in this post. I'm not trying to sound rude or condescending or anything, but with this game you can play the "What if" game all day long. But in response to your post, I'll bring up a couple of points that I feel make your argument a little flawed. First off, the Protoss is relying on good early scouting to know what's heading his way. That's how in the replay he was able to fend off the roach/ling aggression. Don't underestimate the power of scouting... Because a roach/ling bust is far more dangerous when it goes unscouted than when it is scouted as it gives the Protoss time to react and properly prepare his defenses. Being able to deny cannons is a possibility however unlikely. 20 lings is not much of a mineral cost for Zerg but 10 larvae is. That could be 10 drones which over the long haul does make quite an impact. But the Protoss is basically slowly "creeping" his way out of his base with Sentries and Cannons, making it quite difficult for a Zerg to shut down the cannons effectively. As for Warp Gate not being finished early, since this is a purely defensive opening that doesn't actually matter a whole lot. Warp gate tech really helps offensive pushes as you can reenforce immediately, but if you're only looking to turtle for a bit in your base it doesn't matter AS much that you don't get to spawn them wherever you want. Although you shave off 10 seconds of build time with a Warpgate, the first round of units is a wash since it takes 10 seconds to morph the gateways into warpgates in the first place. Finally, you are still able to go all sorts of tech avenues just like any other build. Just because you don't have a fast warp gate doesn't mean you can't throw down a Stargate. All that's needed is a Cyber core... So the whole "not worrying about voids/dts" is completely false, as you only need the cyber core to unlock that tech. | ||
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