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On May 15 2011 09:23 ImmortalTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 08:47 travis wrote:On May 15 2011 08:44 lazyo wrote:
Even as a Zerg player I approve of this idea. However I see a few problems:
1: Your hallucination poke seems a tad gimmicky, as you already show that you have gotten hallucination before warpgate, so a smart zerg will figure out those Zealots are hallucinations for sure since you dont have warpgates and couldnt produce those numbers that fast. Also your sentries will have low energy. This completely negates the poke's effect as the Z is still save to drone all he wants if he knows what you are doing.
2: Hallucination is a giant energy drain and I am worried that on maps such as XNC you will not have enough forcefields left to defend your natural against the roache/ling that you may have forced.
3: Gas Steals will really throw off all the timings of this build, since sentries really take a damn long time to kill extractors. How will the zerg know I got hallucination before warpgate? Uh I guess actually he MIGHT know, but it'd take a damn fine player to know that my extra 4-6 zealots are hallucination and not the real thing. And that fine of a player is likely to have made SOME units for a possible fast gateway push. And I agree with point 2 EXCEPT i am only doing the poke because he doesn't have very many guys. If he has a decent force I save all my energy for forcefields. point 3, I don't let gas steals happen. If for some reason the drone got in my base to steal the gas that early, which is REALLY early, I would stop whatever else I am doing and take my gas. This makes a lot of sense, but I would like to ask one thing... In your OP you said zerg will massively overreact to your hallucinated zeal push. If you don't engage and retreat after using all sentry energy on hallucination, what if he decides that 1. he knows you had hallu, or 2. that he has enough units to kill you and commits to an attack? With no map control or FF you will be in quite a lot of trouble, even with 3 or so cannons against a force designed to beat 8 zeals and 8 sentries which he saw knocking on his door.
Once your expansion is up and you are in full production I think you will be just fine. Your warpgate will be up and you will already have more energy for forcefields. That really isn't a timing protoss has to be worried about. And if you stay on top of scouting with hallu phoenixes, you have enough time to throw up cannons in response to a huge surge of roach/ling from the zerg.
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Ok thanks for the quick response, that also makes a lot of sense! I'm gonna go try this on the ladder right now, and tell you guys how it goes!
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On May 15 2011 08:47 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 08:44 lazyo wrote:
Even as a Zerg player I approve of this idea. However I see a few problems:
1: Your hallucination poke seems a tad gimmicky, as you already show that you have gotten hallucination before warpgate, so a smart zerg will figure out those Zealots are hallucinations for sure since you dont have warpgates and couldnt produce those numbers that fast. Also your sentries will have low energy. This completely negates the poke's effect as the Z is still save to drone all he wants if he knows what you are doing.
2: Hallucination is a giant energy drain and I am worried that on maps such as XNC you will not have enough forcefields left to defend your natural against the roache/ling that you may have forced.
3: Gas Steals will really throw off all the timings of this build, since sentries really take a damn long time to kill extractors. How will the zerg know I got hallucination before warpgate? Uh I guess actually he MIGHT know, but it'd take a damn fine player to know that my extra 4-6 zealots are hallucination and not the real thing. And that fine of a player is likely to have made SOME units for a possible fast gateway push. And I agree with point 2 EXCEPT i am only doing the poke because he doesn't have very many guys. If he has a decent force I save all my energy for forcefields. point 3, I don't let gas steals happen. If for some reason the drone got in my base to steal the gas that early, which is REALLY early, I would stop whatever else I am doing and take my gas.
The zerg will know you have hallucination for two reasons:
-you suggest scouting with a hallucinated phoenix in the original post, which is a dead giveaway
-even if you dont do this most of your sentries will have almost no energy after mass hallucinate, which will seem suspicious considering there is no reason for you to be using the energy for anything other than hallucinate at that stage
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one suggestion, maybe hallu a void ray, scout with it then get it out of Z's line of sight before it dies. Even if you don't get it out of LoS, you still get the scout off, and if you do, then you could draw a reaction
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On May 15 2011 09:34 FictionSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 08:47 travis wrote:On May 15 2011 08:44 lazyo wrote:
Even as a Zerg player I approve of this idea. However I see a few problems:
1: Your hallucination poke seems a tad gimmicky, as you already show that you have gotten hallucination before warpgate, so a smart zerg will figure out those Zealots are hallucinations for sure since you dont have warpgates and couldnt produce those numbers that fast. Also your sentries will have low energy. This completely negates the poke's effect as the Z is still save to drone all he wants if he knows what you are doing.
2: Hallucination is a giant energy drain and I am worried that on maps such as XNC you will not have enough forcefields left to defend your natural against the roache/ling that you may have forced.
3: Gas Steals will really throw off all the timings of this build, since sentries really take a damn long time to kill extractors. How will the zerg know I got hallucination before warpgate? Uh I guess actually he MIGHT know, but it'd take a damn fine player to know that my extra 4-6 zealots are hallucination and not the real thing. And that fine of a player is likely to have made SOME units for a possible fast gateway push. And I agree with point 2 EXCEPT i am only doing the poke because he doesn't have very many guys. If he has a decent force I save all my energy for forcefields. point 3, I don't let gas steals happen. If for some reason the drone got in my base to steal the gas that early, which is REALLY early, I would stop whatever else I am doing and take my gas. The zerg will know you have hallucination for two reasons: -you suggest scouting with a hallucinated phoenix in the original post, which is a dead giveaway
keep up bro 
-even if you dont do this most of your sentries will have almost no energy after mass hallucinate, which will seem suspicious considering there is no reason for you to be using the energy for anything other than hallucinate at that stage
only 2-3 sentries are actually able to hallucinate, which is 4-6 extra zeals (huge difference in army size). most sentries have between 50-100 energy. even nestea wouldn't be able to click through all the sentries and find out the zealots were hallucinated that way.
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But couldn't you just get warpgate first and push out with the exact army but with real units? Seems safer in every way besides a delayed hallu-phoenix.
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On May 15 2011 09:40 sKo wrote:
But couldn't you just get warpgate first and push out with the exact army but with real units? Seems safer in every way besides a delayed hallu-phoenix.
I am not sure you are getting the point of the build. This is an economy based build, our goal is to safely tech up while staying even or ahead of the zerg in economy.
If we got warpgate first and made real units we would be playing blind, and our expansion would be later. With only 2 warpgates we would be susceptible to a roach/ling timing (even with 3gates no forge it can be dangerous on many maps). If we did 3gates it would be 3gate sentry expand. One of the biggest problems with 3gate sentry expand is that you have absolutely no clue what the zerg is doing until hallu, which takes quite a long time now after the warpgate research nerf.
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I like this concept of getting a real fast halluc + putting fake pressure on your opponent and being able to react to what he is doing a lot sooner then usual.
My teammate Azz was thinking about this same concept (minus the pressure) in PvP and I think it could be even more useful in PvZ. This and that new 2 gate expo build will be going under ruthless testing from me :D nice post Travis.
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I have been working on a very similar build. I would simply do the 3 gate sentry expand followed by chrono'ed hallucination. Soon as it was finished I would send out 2 zealots and about 8/10 hallucinated stalkers. Run them up to the zergs base (With the zealots clearing out the scouting lings so they dont see the stalkers not doing any damage). Run them right up to the zergs spine crawlers, send the zealots and hallucinated stalkers in to die, and watch the zerg essentially mass ling roach just to kill of 2 zealots. Meanwhile I would be back at home chrono'ing probes and putting cannons up.
However I think I like your idea of getting Hallu first. One thing I HATE in PvZ is the lack of scouting early game. This way I can scout really damn early.
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This sounds pretty cool, please edit in some replays! ^^
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I was thinking about hallucinating 2 void rays to fake a void atk and as queens see it run away like you're afraid for some reason and he won't suspect they aren't real..maybe.
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On May 15 2011 09:46 Whiplash wrote:
I like this concept of getting a real fast halluc + putting fake pressure on your opponent and being able to react to what he is doing a lot sooner then usual.
My teammate Azz was thinking about this same concept (minus the pressure) in PvP and I think it could be even more useful in PvZ. This and that new 2 gate expo build will be going under ruthless testing from me :D nice post Travis.
Now that a pro has confirmed that this is a great build, I will probably take it as standard. :D (although I was deciding to use it anyways because i fucking hate roach/ling allins)
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i like this... much better than forge expo or 1 gate expo it feels
trying both pepe's 2 gate expo and this 2 gate hallucination
it seems for toss having an expansion only starts paying when you have at least 4 drones over saturation (saturation is defined at 16... over-sat is around 22-26 for an 8 mineral patches)
4 drones mining at the new base, it's 120 minerals/min more
8 drones mining at the new base, it's 240 minerals/min more
above 8 drones mining, each drones adds 100 minerals/min more at new base
It doesn't make sense to build a nexus right after 1 gate as you'll only have about 4 drones to mine at the new base. (in one minute, you have sunk 400 minerals and got back on 120 minerals)
i like this build
and if the Z want's to be greedy...(e.g. 6 lings, one spine)
then my own theory: it's possible to proxy 2 cannons/2 pylons (100+400 sunk cost) between the Z's main and nat (hopefully on high ground) under the cover of hallucinated zealots... most cases it should be a fast game... as the isolated nat is now food for your zealot sentries and reinforcements. (at around 8 min when 1-base muta comes into play, you should have a third cannon in your nat's mineral and another in your main's mineral lines) if he does respond by pulling drones and morphing out a ton of $#@! then cancel everything and go back to your base to expo XD
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This doesnt hold true for pvz as it really doesnt matter if you fall behind in econ if you just sit and turtle your heart out on 2-3 bases and build an unkillable deathball.
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On May 15 2011 12:01 Mojar wrote:
This doesnt hold true for pvz as it really doesnt matter if you fall behind in econ if you just sit and turtle your heart out on 2-3 bases and build an unkillable deathball.
an unkillable deathball on four sat bases (protected by 3 cannons) each with full upgrades and 8 chronoed warpgates and a few DT's and observers wandering everywhere... yep :D
toss dream game until fungal growth and massive Z counter comes into play D:
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On May 15 2011 12:01 Mojar wrote:
This doesnt hold true for pvz as it really doesnt matter if you fall behind in econ if you just sit and turtle your heart out on 2-3 bases and build an unkillable deathball.
yeah... that's nonsense. there is no such thing as an unkillable deathball. and even if there was, your base can still be killed.
when zerg dies to protoss deathball they either had the wrong unit combination, engaged wrong, or the game was much closer than you're making it out to be (or the protosss was flat out ahead).
don't get me wrong, 200/200 protoss army can be sick strong, potentially stronger than zerg army can be. but zerg can replenish their army quicker if they are miles ahead in macro. and with all the tools zergs have (infestors, baneling drops, roach/hydra surround, corruptors, brood lords), they should be able to kill a big chunk of your deathball if they are 200/200.
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I've been trying to come up with a way to take advantage of the Sentry build time buff, and this really might be just it. Although Warp Gate research is incredibly slow, the scouting by the fast Hallucination really lets you know what to expect from the Zerg... Because that is often the scariest thing while you're setting up your expansion: Not knowing if you've got a bust incoming.
It seems to be fairly safe, though I would like to see some more replays and I will definitely be testing this out myself in the near future.
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I really like the idea behind this build. I might give it a run or have one of my protoss buddy's try it out and see how it goes and how I feel playing zerg against it. I really like the fake pressure you could possibly present to a zerg. Would def confuse me lol.
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If this build gets popular, u can do fake fake pressure and just kill zerg (spam forcefields at ur natural and then move out with real army of 8zeal/8sentry) would be funny lol :D
nice build btw u dont need to click on the sentries to see they energy, if u have hp bars its shown as purple bar travis
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Are you sure this can hold well executed roach ling all ins? Because using halluc means you are down 2 FF's, plus 2gate without warpgate seems kind of low on units. And, that early phoenix tells the zerg you have no warpgate tech, and he does not have to worry about voids/pheonix/dts/blink/4gate.
I guess that means you are relying on good cannons since you have little units. What if a zerg is good at isolating them with roaches? What if a zerg makes 20 lings (doesn't put him that much behind) and keeps denying cannons from going up? You might have to force leapfrog many cannons, and delay your expo by a lot.
Actually, you know what I am really frightened of if I use this build.. is the warp gate timing. It is so late, it might actually be enough time for a zerg to saturate 2 base and start massing roaches on you (he can do it without worrying about holding voids/dts/blink stalkers.)
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EPT
