I really like this idea and I'm going to give it a shot myself on ladder tomorrow sometime, once I'm done I'll post some reps.

The one thing that was nagging me is that if you aren't REALLY on top of scouting and you don't see a muta switch - isn't that insta-loss? Cannons sitting idly at the front, and only sentries to try and stop the mutas? I'm speaking of a 2 base muta hit in theory.

Obviously good scouting is the key to ANY game, but I really feel this build would be destroyed by some early/mass mutas if the zerg decides to commit to the mutas really hard.

What would be your switch if the zerg went mutas against this Travis? Just put some cannons up and continue as normal? Or switch into something once you see mutas begin to pop (with a hallu phoenix scouting obviously)?

nehcnhoj

United States213 Posts

May 20 2011 10:03 GMT

#123

As a Zerg player. I really like(dislike lol) the idea of this build. It minimizes the few minutes of uncertainty toss has just as ling speed pops and Zerg has map control and sets into their build order be it macro or roach ling bust.

My scenario here is against a macro zerg, as I believe your build would be very efficient at holding a roach ling bust with the fast forge which really is the solution to the roach ling bust in the first place.

A few points of advise. I highly advise against your fake pressure with 7-8 sentries and a zealot.

My reasoning for this is, from my point of view, I would have a ling scout outside your natural, xel'naga towers if applicable and basically lings in position to give early warning of any push/pressure. When you move out substantially far from your natural, I will send 2 overlords I have along the sides of your main for a two prong scout. Here I do not have to see the number of gates, I just have to see them not being warpgates, and I would know to kill your sentries with lings.

Furthermore, you have already been so greedy, there is no reason for this fake pressure at all. It's kinda like what tyler/incontrol were talking about on sotg when they criticised HuK's play in GSL with him being very risky and aggresive with his early 6-7 sentries, this was before roach ling busts were all that popular though. As stated in your build, you have chrono'd probes, much more so than a 3 gate expand, you have made 8-9 sentries after your first zealot. Being able to be safe with that many chronos on probes and have units number 2 to 10 being sentries should already be a super comfortable position for any toss.

Lastly, your mid game should be extremely favourable because of your halu first, you'll have almost perfect information of your zerg opponent and be in a really comfortable position to be greedy / or punish him for being greedy with a more substantial, later push with appropriate tech choices.

I have always wanted to contribute whenever I see Toss complain about losing to a hyper aggressive early / mid game roach ling zergs, but really if you are being careful with the one unit that lets you win lopsided supply battles (sentries) this should never be the case. And this build seems like the closest to ideal foundation for that so far.

Some of my humble views, nice build Travis.

qubee

Netherlands39 Posts

May 20 2011 10:31 GMT

#124

as a toss myself i really like the build, very interesting. gonna try it out on ladder later today

thanks for the guide!

Dommk

Australia4865 Posts

May 20 2011 11:14 GMT

#125

On May 20 2011 08:13 iChau wrote:
I like this build although I don't go hallucination because it's not smooth.

I think you can go 15 gas 16 gas to even that out.

Although I don't use hallucination first, it's still pretty good. I'm loving this build so far Travis. You can expand a lot faster than 3 gate sentry expo or you can get the cannon first to save yourself.

And it is also quite nice vs the speedling builds where zergs will mass up a lot of speedlings and attack at the 6:30 mark.

That is what I've been doing a lot too lately

Getting that second gateway quicker to get sentries out, Stalker first then inbase forge and expanding at 5:40-6min, feels so much safer since the cannon goes down straight away and usually I start +1 because I'm greedy

iChau

United States1210 Posts

May 20 2011 12:25 GMT

#126

On May 20 2011 20:14 Dommk wrote:

Show nested quote +

That is what I've been doing a lot too lately

Yeah variations are pretty good to know.

Iamportal

United States184 Posts

May 22 2011 15:36 GMT

#127

I've had quite a bit of success with this build on the ladder recently, so i'll try to post some replays

Parnass

Germany145 Posts

May 23 2011 10:40 GMT

#128

this seems like a really cool build, i will definitely try it out on the ladder soon. Even though my pvz is already pretty stable I always look for ways to improve it. I really love the new P with all the changes

I just hope that pvp stabilizes somewhat differently, because thats where i still have the largest trouble!

IIIOmegaIII

Sweden319 Posts

May 23 2011 13:54 GMT

#129

thats some glorious stuff u got going

hallucination is a underused ability indeed.

Halcyondaze

United States509 Posts

May 23 2011 14:04 GMT

#130

The only problem I see is with the fake sentry/zlot attack. If you have an extremely early hallucinate (which is already very uncommon), the zerg will already know due to the pheonix so he will probably expect something fishy.

Also, I think this build is amazing, and am going to try some variations of it, as well as the standard. I think it is very viable.

The argument that the zerg can go 'macro style' and take a quick 3rd or something is very easily scoutable, and the fact that you get your second base up faster than 3gate expo, it seems very viable to me that you could take a quick third too (while the entire time scouting with hallucinate every ~40 seconds to see tech switch.

Triky

Peru99 Posts

May 27 2011 07:21 GMT

#131

I tried this build since i liked hallu last patch.
It seems to work at mid masters lvl.(might upload some replays later)