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I casually ignored you, markwef, because I didn't want to have to keep arguing with you. I'll add more replays to the OP as I play more. Some of the things you say are ridiculous.
wg before hallucination only gets hallucination 2 minutes later then this build while being much more flexible
wow. really? so 2 minutes doesn't matter? are you serious?
- hallucination before wg is harder to afford, you need to have 100/100 straight when the cyber finishes instead of 50/50 which conflicts with any fast sentry buid, idle time on your cybernetics core is bad..
umm.. the fact is you easily have the money, I already said how to do the build so either you have the money or you don't.. and you do.
- wg instantly boosts production (less so for sentries now but still the same for stalkers), this makes it critical for being able to defend a nexus. Making units with normal gateways means you don't get the units straight up and make them less fast. What point is there to scout when you don't have the proper means to defend against what you scout? Sure you can do so with cannons but that is very inefficient as you need a really quick forge that way, i'd rather get the nexus before forge.
zerg will almost never get there before you can throw up cannons, and if they did, you wouldn't be able to get your expansion up yet with 3gate sentry expand. the entire point is that any remotely normal attack timing from zerg will be scouted and you can throw up cannons. there isn't much advantage to warpgate first here.
there, markwef, i replied to you. but i already suspect tell it doesn't matter. it was obvious that replying to you probably didn't matter when you kept making arguments that were already explained in the OP. if you don't want to use the build then fine, no loss for me. I just don't want you making incorrect arguments that make other people go "oh this build sucks".
the only correct thing you say is that a weirdly early timing from zerg is going to delay your expansion a lot, but in all honesty it's going to delay it quite a bit if you go 3g sentry expand too. and you don't see a timing that early too often. if that timing actually does come, so that they get there with roaches before you can even put up cannons, it isn't even the end of the world, it just delays you for a little bit.
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On May 16 2011 23:59 Khaladas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 19:39 Markwerf wrote:
Ugh I posted why this build is complete nonsense but got casually ignored.
I'll just recap it as I can't stand to see people actually believing this build is any good:
- hallucination before wg is harder to afford, you need to have 100/100 straight when the cyber finishes instead of 50/50 which conflicts with any fast sentry buid, idle time on your cybernetics core is bad..
- wg instantly boosts production (less so for sentries now but still the same for stalkers), this makes it critical for being able to defend a nexus. Making units with normal gateways means you don't get the units straight up and make them less fast. What point is there to scout when you don't have the proper means to defend against what you scout? Sure you can do so with cannons but that is very inefficient as you need a really quick forge that way, i'd rather get the nexus before forge.
- wg before hallucination only gets hallucination 2 minutes later then this build while being much more flexible. Hallucination first forces you into scouting & defending as you CANT be aggresive, wg first leaves the zerg much more in the dark and thus less likely to simply outdrone you. Zerg couldnt be more happy to see a super early hallucinated phoenix as it only tells them: "my opponent was an idiot to get hallucination first, i can freely get my third super fast now."
Hallucination is good but just get it after WG... Instead of wasting chrono's on your nexus so much simply chrono your WG tech 4 times and then hallucination once, it still gets out quick enough to scout Losira timings. Roach/ling attacks before the Losira timing are inefficient on 2 bases so all you need to do against those is defend on 1 base, you are actually ahead if you just cancel your nexus against them.. If you make the nexus quickly and hallucination finishes while it's making you are completely fine, you are only at risk of losing the full 400 minerals when a timing hits just after the nexus completes... Any time before that you can simply cancel for only 100m loss much less then zerg loses by being so aggresive that early... I certainly respect travis and his term and contributions as a community member, but I tend to agree with the points you are making here markwerf. Most of the roach/ling timings hit around 7-9 minutes, after the nexus finishes, but before I have any real defense.
maybe you should actually try the build. if your nexus is done then you will have already scouted him and you should have had more than enough time to put up cannons in response to aggression.
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Hello TeamLiquid!
First time poster here, but I felt like i had to share my 2 cents in here (actually registered just for it).
't'is a really nice strategy that doesn't follow the regular WG flow. I noticed that most people are willing to give it a chance, i have myself used hallu's for quite a while now (most of the time to fake REAL all-ins with hallu'ed probes making him sometimes pull some of his to tank, thus killin' them) and i must say that I love this idea of fake agression.
About a third of the comments are about how unrealistic the army size is... What about... Hallucinating the zeals, check the energy of sentries and send in just those who have above 50 energy?! Plus one lower if you really want to be convincing (because of the phenix scout). The point is that since you don't plan on attacking anyway, 3-4 sentries less don't really matter. And if you get flanked, those emptied sentries wouldn't have helped alot anyway. It will even make your APM rise a little 
Just tried to be constructive and wishing to get to play more original games
Darthas - really occasionnal plat player.
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On May 17 2011 02:30 travis wrote:I casually ignored you, markwef, because I didn't want to have to keep arguing with you. I'll add more replays to the OP as I play more. Some of the things you say are ridiculous. Show nested quote +wg before hallucination only gets hallucination 2 minutes later then this build while being much more flexible wow. really? so 2 minutes doesn't matter? are you serious? two minutes is an advantage but in my opinion it simply doesn't make up for the disadvantages to delay WG tech so much. Note that you only have 2 to 3 sentries out and you bring your first sentry to 0 energy immediately when you make your first hallucinated phoenix. In the replay you have 1 zealot, 2 sentries with 70 energy on one zero on the other when you expand. If the zerg does some medium speedling pressure to try and cancel your nexus there is just no way you can stop it.. You can only cast FF, have hardly any units and no WG in sight to warp in some units.Show nested quote +
- hallucination before wg is harder to afford, you need to have 100/100 straight when the cyber finishes instead of 50/50 which conflicts with any fast sentry buid, idle time on your cybernetics core is bad..
umm.. the fact is you easily have the money, I already said how to do the build so either you have the money or you don't.. and you do.
uhhm you easily have the money?? Your build is either skipping probes at 12 or doing a 14 gate which is already much less efficient then a normal 13 gate without probe cut. Then you also have to wait a bit when the cybercore finishes to actually start hallucination as you don't have enough gas because you want to make a sentry first... Idle nexus time and idle cybernetics core are not exactly the signs of a smooth build and the reason is simply that hallucination costs 50/50 more then WG tech..
Show nested quote +
- wg instantly boosts production (less so for sentries now but still the same for stalkers), this makes it critical for being able to defend a nexus. Making units with normal gateways means you don't get the units straight up and make them less fast. What point is there to scout when you don't have the proper means to defend against what you scout? Sure you can do so with cannons but that is very inefficient as you need a really quick forge that way, i'd rather get the nexus before forge.
zerg will almost never get there before you can throw up cannons, and if they did, you wouldn't be able to get your expansion up yet with 3gate sentry expand. the entire point is that any remotely normal attack timing from zerg will be scouted and you can throw up cannons. there isn't much advantage to warpgate first here.
Any normal timing attack (such as losira timing) will be scouted with hallucination AFTER warpgate as well. Attacks that come before you can scout with WG - > hallu come before your nexus is completed and can simply be dealt with by defending at the ramp and canceling your nexus. Those super early attacks happen before 25 drones and are inefficient anyway. Note that i'm not saying 3 gate sentry expand is better as some things of your build i definately like such as getting only 2 gates and getting an earlier forge. I'm only arguing that hallucination first is a big nono.
there, markwef, i replied to you. but i already suspect tell it doesn't matter. it was obvious that replying to you probably didn't matter when you kept making arguments that were already explained in the OP. if you don't want to use the build then fine, no loss for me. I just don't want you making incorrect arguments that make other people go "oh this build sucks". the only correct thing you say is that a weirdly early timing from zerg is going to delay your expansion a lot, but in all honesty it's going to delay it quite a bit if you go 3g sentry expand too. and you don't see a timing that early too often. if that timing actually does come, so that they get there with roaches before you can even put up cannons, it isn't even the end of the world, it just delays you for a little bit.
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I just checked the replay (was at work for the other reply's) and that was one of the worst Zerg rushes possible. He attempts a 6 Rouch 17 Zerling rush off twobase, waits some seconds in the middle for no apparant reason, doesn't reinforce and he STILL would have killed you flatout if he had just focused the pylon in front of the Nexus & the lone active cannon. After that 1 rounds of slings would be enough to kill you.
Perhaps other replay's will show otherwise, but this strategy seems incredibly weak to early rushes. And for a later rush, Since the Zerg knows you have hallucinations, he can reverse the logic and apply fake pressure himself and force a ton of cannons? It's not like you'll actually kill anything with sentry's.
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My defense that game was actually terrible, I was late on scouting and late on putting up cannons.
His timing was pretty standard.. He could have been a few seconds earlier but he just wanted to form up I guess.
And he wouldn't have killed me I wouldn't let him kill the pylon that easily, not without losing almost everything.
I don't think it's weak to early rushes, but I suppose time will tell.
I don't know what you mean by "fake pressure" with zerg. I can scout what units he makes and how many(though I suppose zerg maybe could get away with hiding units).
Sorry guys I am trying to get more replays but every pvz I am gettng on the ladder either they like 7-9 pool me or it's on shakuras so I FE.
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On May 16 2011 03:32 travis wrote:
No, 3 gate sentry expand you chronoboost your warpgate. If not you will die to an allin, because you don't have a forge to make cannons. So you need faster warpgate to be able to make faster reinforcements.
Hmm, weird. Most all-ins Zerg uses are pretty telling tho. Baneling busts could be hidden well if they prevent you from seeing the early 2nd gas but everything else should be scoutable in time I guess. But being safe is worth it I guess. I'll continue CBing Probes tho. Cheers.
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this is really interesting, I look forward to seeing more replays :D
really creative build.
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Good shit travis... thank you.
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ROFL. Greatest idea ever: Hallucinate 20 probes for a fake congo line to freak out the zerg!
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Tyler did this build on his stream today. it seemed pretty effective
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On May 17 2011 06:35 Markwerf wrote:
two minutes is an advantage but in my opinion it simply doesn't make up for the disadvantages to delay WG tech so much. Note that you only have 2 to 3 sentries out and you bring your first sentry to 0 energy immediately when you make your first hallucinated phoenix. In the replay you have 1 zealot, 2 sentries with 70 energy on one zero on the other when you expand. If the zerg does some medium speedling pressure to try and cancel your nexus there is just no way you can stop it.. You can only cast FF, have hardly any units and no WG in sight to warp in some units.
Keep in mind he hasn't set up his expo at that particular point yet... Which means that those sentries will only need to guard the ramp which is easily doable. Sure you delay your warp tech by 80 seconds, but it's not like the gateways aren't pumping sentries while he's at it. There's a 5 second different between warp gate cooldown and sentry time build... Since the first round of units is a wash (since it takes 10 seconds to morph the gateway) warp gate for the first use actually yields no benefit. After that point you are netting yourself 5 seconds per sentry.
uhhm you easily have the money?? Your build is either skipping probes at 12 or doing a 14 gate which is already much less efficient then a normal 13 gate without probe cut. Then you also have to wait a bit when the cybercore finishes to actually start hallucination as you don't have enough gas because you want to make a sentry first... Idle nexus time and idle cybernetics core are not exactly the signs of a smooth build and the reason is simply that hallucination costs 50/50 more then WG tech..
Easily might not be exactly what he meant, but the point is he has made the build order the way it is to accomodate his build. Even if he does skip a probe a little early, consider the fact that he will be chronoboosting probes for quite a while afterwards.
Any normal timing attack (such as losira timing) will be scouted with hallucination AFTER warpgate as well. Attacks that come before you can scout with WG - > hallu come before your nexus is completed and can simply be dealt with by defending at the ramp and canceling your nexus. Those super early attacks happen before 25 drones and are inefficient anyway. Note that i'm not saying 3 gate sentry expand is better as some things of your build i definately like such as getting only 2 gates and getting an earlier forge. I'm only arguing that hallucination first is a big nono.
I can agree with the argument that warp gate first will definitely be a better circumstance to fend off earlier than usual aggression, but it also depends on what time as well. Like I mentioned before, the very first round of units created by a warp gate are not 10 seconds faster as it takes 10 seconds to morph the gateways into warp gates. So it's only the second + rounds of units that start to benefit from that 10 second speed boost (or in Sentry's case, 5).
And although you might not have a regularly timed warp gate, you do get earlier cannons with this build which are incredibly strong vs Zerg in the early game. If you sim city correctly, two cannons can really take a huge bite out of early aggression from the Zerg, and since you get the earlier scout in, you won't be in the dark when the aggression starts heading your way.
Something I think that could be said about a build like this is that it might even provoke earlier than usual aggression. It remains to be seen if the build can withstand heavy early pressure (I personally believe it can, though I myself have not tested this yet) but if it can, it could potentially make quite a number of opponents overreact to the "weakness" they see and try to go all-in. If they do, you can scout it and adjust your defenses accordingly.
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I've been thinking about the same issue of being blind to what the zerg is doing from when speed finishes to when you're able to get hallucination out. I considered going hallucination first as well, but I don't like giving up the option of being aggressive, and a good zerg will realize your warpgates will be a minute late as soon as you pop that first Phoenix.
I've been playing around with some gate>robo>gate build and getting a fast observer instead. It'll cost you 125 minerals and 75 gas more total, but it'll give you better scouting early game, mobile detection in case he goes burrowed roaches, access to immortals to counter early roaches, possibility to go for colossi in case he went for a hydrarush, and saves you a bunch of energy on your sentries (making up for the gas cost imo). Also you'd be able to be reactionary with your cannons rather than preemptive on most maps, as they build in 40 seconds and no-speed roaches take a long time to get to your base, hence not investing overly much in defenses.
I doubt I'm the only one who's been thinking about this though, I just haven't been very active lately.
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I tried this build and it worked out a lot better if I simply 2 Gate Forge expanded, with the same idea of spending all chronos on probes and building the second gateway early to squeeze out extra Sentries, but with Warpgate before Hallucinate.
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On May 17 2011 07:23 travis wrote:
Sorry guys I am trying to get more replays but every pvz I am gettng on the ladder either they like 7-9 pool me or it's on shakuras so I FE.
Not sure how seriously you take the ladder (i guess ladder points to men are like diamonds to women) but I guess you could change your 1v1 map preferences to take out the bigger maps.
Nice work though. This roach ling all-ins have been giving me nightmares the last few weeks. GSL can be my lifeline in ladder, but also my downfall.
I have seen Tyler do some 2 gate + Forge expands on his stream recently, with heavy zealot production. Wondered if you had seen him doing this and had any ideas on what hes doing differently to yours?
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i've been using a similar build on the ladder for the past week or so and i have to say i like it quite a bit! If you get the 2nd gateway a bit earlier (like when zlot is building or when 1st sentry starts) you can get a decent amount of sentries out and put your nexus up around the same time as a 3 gate expand. the super early hallucinated phoenix lets you prepare for any allins with the proper amount of cannons. AND if you see zerg just droning and taking a super greedy third, you can either 5-6 gate or hallucinate a bunch of units and fake pressure while taking your own super fast third and teching... seems pretty cool.
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I like this build although I don't go hallucination because it's not smooth.
I think you can go 15 gas 16 gas to even that out.
Although I don't use hallucination first, it's still pretty good. I'm loving this build so far Travis. You can expand a lot faster than 3 gate sentry expo or you can get the cannon first to save yourself.
And it is also quite nice vs the speedling builds where zergs will mass up a lot of speedlings and attack at the 6:30 mark.
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On May 17 2011 06:35 Markwerf wrote:two minutes is an advantage but in my opinion it simply doesn't make up for the disadvantages to delay WG tech so much. Note that you only have 2 to 3 sentries out and you bring your first sentry to 0 energy immediately when you make your first hallucinated phoenix. In the replay you have 1 zealot, 2 sentries with 70 energy on one zero on the other when you expand. If the zerg does some medium speedling pressure to try and cancel your nexus there is just no way you can stop it.. You can only cast FF, have hardly any units and no WG in sight to warp in some units.
As silly as most of this guy's arguments are, this one is worth noting. It's pretty common for a speedling expand to pressure your nexus with a dozen-odd lings as you put it down, and with only one forcefield and three units you'll have trouble preventing the cancel. It's never going to kill you, but it could disrupt your build pretty badly.
That said, obviously a 3G sentry expand would barely even have the expo by that timing, wouldn't have WG either, and would have less probes so needs the nexus more.
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I'm not here to say : "doesnt work" ..Every things works if you work it with it. But i really haven't see the big advantage come from doing it, and isn't specified well in the OP (apart the "use" of the new patch).
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Sry but not rly viable strategy.... As soon as you go 2gate forge expand every good zerg will go macro mode and you wont be able to punishm him. With 2gate you just dont have the production to kill him and he will know that these zelots cant be produced of 2 warpgates.This strategy will fail 100% vs zerg player who scouts and I think there are not many good players left who dont . There are no protosses that leave their expansion before its done as moving before expo finishes creates a danger of running lings and canceling your expo or going into your base and killing your probes. So either way you will end behind and you cant actually do dmg because you cant reinforce with units and you dont have any real damage dealers. Its cute but for people who know the timings it cant be really usable strategy. Good job for the creativity though there are not many people who try to create new strategies just because the ones already known work pretty well and relly not so much on your opponent making a mistake.
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EPT
