EPT[D] PvZ 2g-forge Expand, Hallu first - Page 4
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Arachne
South Africa426 Posts
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Huckleuro
United Kingdom294 Posts
People are claiming that the build doesnt allow you to punish a greedy zerg. I actually disagree. The early halluc/ scout means that you can actually more accurately punish a greedy zerg. There is nothing to stop you doing a delayed 5 gate if he takes an early 3rd... or 6gating if hes being real greedy. Good build, good idea. Probably can be abused if used all the time but as it stands this has been added to my array of PvZ builds. | ||
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W2
United States1177 Posts
On May 16 2011 00:37 CrAzEdMiKe wrote: First off, I find that there are a lot of "What ifs" in this post. I'm not trying to sound rude or condescending or anything, but with this game you can play the "What if" game all day long. But in response to your post, I'll bring up a couple of points that I feel make your argument a little flawed. First off, the Protoss is relying on good early scouting to know what's heading his way. That's how in the replay he was able to fend off the roach/ling aggression. Don't underestimate the power of scouting... Because a roach/ling bust is far more dangerous when it goes unscouted than when it is scouted as it gives the Protoss time to react and properly prepare his defenses. Being able to deny cannons is a possibility however unlikely. 20 lings is not much of a mineral cost for Zerg but 10 larvae is. That could be 10 drones which over the long haul does make quite an impact. But the Protoss is basically slowly "creeping" his way out of his base with Sentries and Cannons, making it quite difficult for a Zerg to shut down the cannons effectively. As for Warp Gate not being finished early, since this is a purely defensive opening that doesn't actually matter a whole lot. Warp gate tech really helps offensive pushes as you can reenforce immediately, but if you're only looking to turtle for a bit in your base it doesn't matter AS much that you don't get to spawn them wherever you want. Although you shave off 10 seconds of build time with a Warpgate, the first round of units is a wash since it takes 10 seconds to morph the gateways into warpgates in the first place. Finally, you are still able to go all sorts of tech avenues just like any other build. Just because you don't have a fast warp gate doesn't mean you can't throw down a Stargate. All that's needed is a Cyber core... So the whole "not worrying about voids/dts" is completely false, as you only need the cyber core to unlock that tech. It's not a game. You always gotta consider the "what ifs" when making a build! Especially a build that shows its hand right at the start with the phoenix. Also you cannot rush voids/dts properly with this build because you wg is delayed and you are spending gas on sentries/hallucinate. So the zerg will breathe a sigh of relief when he sees your early hallucinated phoenix, knowing 1) void/dt/blink rush out of the question 2) safe from 4gate. Can you please address my biggest worry: a zerg who realizes this, saturates his two bases, and streams roaches/lings at you? Note: I am a very stubborn and evidence-based person. | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
On May 15 2011 21:46 dementrio wrote: I don't get where people got this idea that stargate or dt expand are safe against roach ling "allins". They're not. The whole concept of a stargate or dt expand is flawed, since it's impossible to hold your expansion if you don't actually win with the dts or voidray. whaaat? it's very safe. You rush to dts/voidrays you harass with them forcing him to spend money on tech, but then you go back and use them to defend, and they can defend roach/ling just fine, and the opponent doesn't have overseers/hydras yet, so you're SO safe. Then in the case of stargate you'll have 1 phoenix to see whether he's going hydra or spire, and before he has either of those voidrays help delay expo. In the case of DTs you can't really scout but you just go blink stalkers because they're pretty damn good against anything, or Archon/zealot like this thread suggests. Make sure you have a forge to detect burrowed roaches or similar garbage, and you're in good shape. edit: sorry, it's not this thread that suggets Archon/Zealot, it's the archon/zealot thread, but still they're pretty decent. | ||
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Sir Snoopy
United States57 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On May 16 2011 00:36 Markwerf wrote: Hallucination before warpgate makes absolutely no sense and is just not neccesary. Hallucination that quickly is just too early, your scouting probe can tell what's up in the early game and you hardly have energy to waste from your sentries then. Just go warpgate -> hallucination but chrono your cybercore alot, hallucination will come out quick enough for 2 base roach/ling pushes but you will have early warpgate which is just neccesary to make stalkers quickly enough. Not chronoing your gates is fine as you are building pure sentries early anyways.. Simply put, hallucination before warpgate is NEVER worth it. Did you even read the OP? You don't argue the points I make, you just say "no". and you're totally wrong, lol. You can't scout what the zerg is doing with a probe once he has speedlings, that's nonsense. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On May 16 2011 03:14 Sir Snoopy wrote: What would you do assuming this goes into the late game? Same as protoss always does in the late game vs zerg. Use hallucination and react to what you see. Most likely collossus/stalker/sentry/immortal first, and if the zerg makes tons of corruptors I will switch to immortal/templar/whatever. Keep up on bases. It's the same as late game play from 3gate sentry expand except you have a better economy. | ||
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caradoc
Canada3022 Posts
its a really elegant strategy-- if zerg all-ins, you scout it, have cannons, and are ahead in econ. if zerg goes for an econ heavy build, you won't need warpgate for a bit longer anyways. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On May 15 2011 22:41 Ifrit wrote: Actually I always thought this is the right way to play with the 3 Gate expand? oO I've been using it for several months now and I always dedicate every single one of my CBs on Probes unless I smell cheese/all-ins (no hatch at expansion/massive amounts of Lings, very early Pool or 7RR) up until the Forge is done which is when I will start CBing upgrades+Probes. What else is supposed to be CBed with the 3 Gate expand build, Warptech or Sentries? No, 3 gate sentry expand you chronoboost your warpgate. If not you will die to an allin, because you don't have a forge to make cannons. So you need faster warpgate to be able to make faster reinforcements. | ||
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FuzzyLord
253 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On May 16 2011 05:33 FuzzyLord wrote: Does this work on all maps? Or only the ones with relatively small chokes? I have this feeling that walling off on maps like XNC would take a while and leave you open to early pressure on your nat. It works on all maps. just place cannons intelligently, and if they try to maneuver around them block it off with forcefields and get stalkers. You will have so many sentries you will be able to lay down a ton of forcefields. On XNC if they want to wrap around the back they will have to go allllll the way around the rock'd 3rd and that takes forever with roaches. | ||
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CanucksJC
Canada1241 Posts
I still think Inca's dt expand has some potential. I mean, with MC as his mentor / partner, he didn't just try some improvised build 3 games in a row in the most important series of his life  | ||
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dave333
United States915 Posts
Inca getting photon cannons would've helped a lot though. | ||
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
On May 15 2011 07:57 BoxedLunch wrote: I'd like to see replays of this. I'm sure the thread won't get closed considering who the OP is, but this sounds pretty legit, so I'd love to see it in action. TeamLiquid are extreamely fair on who they ban. Just look at past bans such as IdrA. They are fair to protect these forums. | ||
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CanucksJC
Canada1241 Posts
Anyway, on topic I'm gonna go try this out :D | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On May 16 2011 03:28 travis wrote: Did you even read the OP? You don't argue the points I make, you just say "no". and you're totally wrong, lol. You can't scout what the zerg is doing with a probe once he has speedlings, that's nonsense. That is because the OP hardly contained any good arguments in favor of getting hallucination first. Yes there is a gap between getting denied scouting by lings (though it takes quite some time for speedlings to finish usually) and hallucination finishing. This doesn't mean that scouting earlier is automatically better, after all scouting is only useful if you have the means to adapt to what you see well. This build scouts so early and has no warpgate for a long time that it's quite hard to efficiently use the information you see with scouting. Also note that pressure after your first 1 or 2 sentries finish and before you make your nexus and pylon on the lowground is nonexistant in PvZ.. Once you have a few sentries and WG going you are safe from any early attacks, it is only when you start your expo that you get vulnerable again = > why scout so early when you aren't putting down the nexus that early anyways... Finally wg before hallucination functions much smoother because: - wg tech is cheaper and takes longer to research and thus is easier to afford fast. With a hallu first build you need 100/100 when the core finishes and 50/100 for that sentry when the zealot finishes, with a wg first build you effectively save yourself a 50/50 investment for practically two minutes. - wg tech is safer despite not having fast scouting, hallu won't do any good if they do something wonky like a baneling bust or super fast roach pressure as you won't even have the spare energy to scout then nor will you need to. WG still helps as much as before when making zealots and stalkers... - Super early hallucination simply conflicts with having a sentry to use hallucination. Suppose you use a FF to kill 4 of his lings on your ramp, you won't even be able to use hallucination when it finishes then.. The entire build is just not efficient, why use so many chrono's on your nexus for example?? Beyond the first four there is almost no use to chrono your nexus as you are saturated by that point anyway, you are better off investing chrono and money into something that can actually allow you to expand faster like WG tech and a forge. An earlier nexus easily makes up the buildtime for probes and allows a quicker maynard. If you chrono wg and then hallucination afterwards it will still finish relatively quickly but you are actually much safer because you have two warpgates going instead of normal gateways much quicker. Warpgates are still 10s faster then normal gates for stalkers which is what you need to make against pushes... | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
you also can't afford to constantly scout with phoenixes cause you need the Energy for forcefield defence, while i don't say it has no advantages. i am not sure if it is worth it. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
-If you hallu just a FEW zealots for the 'attack', that's better than loads because a)its more realistic looking b)you don't blow all the energy on your sentries c)because of b), he can't just see 'oh no energy on sentries, must be hallus' -possibly you could time your attack with the completion of warpgates and build a proxy pylon, then fly in a hallu phoenix to see if you should actually attack or GTFO -hallucinate is decent in combat vs a z with no detection, the hallus tank damage -someone PLEASE take advantage of the fact that 1 hallucinate = 4 probes, combined with the fact that probes which aren't attacking make a movable wall that must be manually targeted to get through, find a way to make this >> FF and post a replay. PLEASE | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On May 16 2011 07:44 freetgy wrote: i also think watching your replay, that this build gives zerg the option of just double expanding cause your no where in shape of pressuring your opponent if he can force cannons out of you. you also can't afford to constantly scout with phoenixes cause you need the Energy for forcefield defence, while i don't say it has no advantages. i am not sure if it is worth it. If he was making a lot of roaches and lings, thinking of breaking a standard 3 gate expo, then he is behind because he used so many larvae. | ||
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Nisco
Brazil98 Posts
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