EPTI´m a really bad Terran player and can´t say you if you are able to scan my base before my 3 gate push knocks on your door but it will be the only way to know whats going on in my base.
Please just quit me if I´m wrong. And also for my english
[H] How to stop 3 Gate Proxy Stargate as Terran? - Page 2
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Kythus
Spain1 Post
I´m a really bad Terran player and can´t say you if you are able to scan my base before my 3 gate push knocks on your door but it will be the only way to know whats going on in my base. Please just quit me if I´m wrong. And also for my english | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
2 Rax expand builds are really, really safe. You can defend almost all assortments of Protoss attacks with simply mass marines and bunkers from your barracks. There is no need to get marauders, as your marines will be enough to defend any ground pushes. Build your expansion inside your base so that it is less of a liability and you have less ground to defend. I always 2 Rax expand vs Protoss. Always xD. If I ever scout double gas early, it's a straight marine pump from there on to defend against any potential Stargate play. Never forgo bunkers when you expand. It's such a small price to pay to keep you nearly completely safe from plays like this. | ||
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Masayume
Netherlands208 Posts
Most of them dropped an engineering bay so that a turret could finish 25 seconds before the normal DT timing would be. Coincidentally it isnt too far off the stargate play and they can hold it off once they stop your initial poke/push. So it seems against very safe builds that work via that 2nd gas and tech option trigger, it will not be as effective. | ||
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confusedcrib
United States1307 Posts
Two rax expand gives you marauders which as we all know aren't so good against void rays. Cecil is right, a 1 rax FE into a 3-5 rax is great for holding this, and the turrets are just icing, since you should have them in case of dark temps anyways. I believe it is MarineKingPrime vs. oGsMC in the semifinals of the GSL world championships that MC executes the 4 gate gas first void ray cheese. This comes before the standard three gate void ray and is even more difficult to hold. MarineKing holds it with only 3 barracks after a 1 barracks fast expand. Rewatch this series, as it really shows the strength of the 1 rax fast expand over the two rax fast expand because of flexibility. And until a lot of stalkers are out, marines do just fine against protoss. | ||
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
Oh great, I guess you know better than me. Unless it was a gasless 2 rax FE, then that's going to only hurt him in terms of opportunity cost. | ||
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Kelmqtlol
United States91 Posts
On May 14 2011 00:26 Synystyr wrote: Masters level Terran here. 2 Rax expand builds are really, really safe. You can defend almost all assortments of Protoss attacks with simply mass marines and bunkers from your barracks. There is no need to get marauders, as your marines will be enough to defend any ground pushes. Build your expansion inside your base so that it is less of a liability and you have less ground to defend. I always 2 Rax expand vs Protoss. Always xD. If I ever scout double gas early, it's a straight marine pump from there on to defend against any potential Stargate play. Never forgo bunkers when you expand. It's such a small price to pay to keep you nearly completely safe from plays like this. How early is a "early" for a second gas? This Protoss gets it at 19 supply, which I thought 19-20 was pretty standard for a second gas. Also, would you by chance have any replays of you against Protoss so I could see how you execute the opener and compare it to my own? Thanks for all the replies everyone, I appreciate the help  | ||
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Mr_Kyo
United States269 Posts
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Kelmqtlol
United States91 Posts
On May 14 2011 04:37 Mr_Kyo wrote: if you see early 2nd gas, high chrono boost, and no expansion, then its probably a Stargate build. Mass Rine/Tank/Viking can handle it. It may also be a dt build (dt builds often lack chrono boost). Either way, use a scv to begin scouting for proxy buildings. I don't think I can have Tanks and Vikings ready that early in the game to handle this push? | ||
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chaopow
United States556 Posts
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NoxYCakes13
Canada46 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On May 13 2011 19:52 Baum wrote: A lot of terrans like to get marauders fairly early which isn't really a solid way to open in my opinion. Bingo. If there are a lot of Gateway units, Marauders are fine, but the counter to them is air units, and thus this build counters Marauder heavy openings. Of course without lots of Marauders you can't be as aggressive since Marines are frail and can be kited by Stalkers, but I think Terrans have been overly aggressive for a long time and this build simply makes them pay for it. If you go for a more defensive opener, one with some more Marines and Bunkers and less Marauders and you should hold it with ease. | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
I can't remember ever losing to it because if I force him to make gw units to defend he gets fewer voids later, and it's generally pretty easy to deal with. Or he doesn't make enough gw units and I just kill him. | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On May 13 2011 16:18 Trufflez wrote: scout At the front for instance, if you see he has 3 gates, but is only making one or two units at a time, you can assume he is about to or has just spent money on something else. Whether it be an expo, or a stargate, or a robo facility. As a Terran player who has been in this situation, all I can say is that what you said doesn't help at all. How can you scout that it is in fact proxy Stargate instead of Robo or a Nexus. It's super hard to scout and when it comes if you don't have the right composition/missile turrets or MarineKing micro, it kills you. And to be honest, personally I think that the 3 Gate Stargate play looks more like a DT rush than anything else that Protoss can do. Granted, the same thing is true for Terran to an extent, as a fast Factory could be Banshees or Thors. Of course Blizzard also changed Thors so that they're awful in this match-up, so who knows? (And I know that that wasn't the only reason Blizzard changed the Thor, but that was part of it as early Thor Pushes with Cannons were exceedingly effective against early expos and Immortals vs P because the P never handled it correctly). On May 13 2011 16:36 closey wrote: Wouldn't a 3rax stim push simply roll over it completely? The point isn't that a 3rax Stim push beats it, it's that if I do a 3 Rax Stim push and he doesn't go 3 Gate Proxy Stargate then your push fails. If I know that my opponent will go for DTs every game I would do a push with a Raven every game, as I basically will auto-win. But I don't know that and if I try to get tech like that and he attacks with a 4 Gate/hyper aggressive build then suddenly I lose. | ||
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hoax0000
United States26 Posts
Edit: Also if you notice something is fishy, cancel expo and get a 3rd rax. If you try to expo against a 1 base push, you really have no chance at staying alive. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
That's now my standard vP build (one rax expo then 3 more rax,sometimes 4 more), it's safe against everything and can at the same time punish some greedy openings (while being greedy itself), with a somewhat fast engbay for +1 and/or turrets. Only make one techlab (not on your wallin rax if you wallin, as the 3gatestargate timing usually hits just before stim finishes, and if the techlab is sniped it's very hard to defend). Add addons to your raxes as you see fit and as the game develop, and tech normally, it's just a starting bo which is very nice I think. edit : if you stay on 2 rax like some people are suggesting it's impossible to defend. (or at least very hard) | ||
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Xanczor
United States254 Posts
On May 13 2011 16:36 closey wrote: Wouldn't a 3rax stim push simply roll over it completely? No, this is not true. A 3rax stim push comes much later than a protoss 3 gate star build. The protoss will contain you in your base with force fields and will camp outside your base. He will expand, and you will not be able to expand until you have medivacs, which will take a while. A good way to scout for 3 gate star is to check if the protoss made his 3rd pylon in his base. With your scouting SCV, you should spot a 3rd pylon in the protoss base about 10 seconds before the stalker pops out. If you don't see the 3rd pylon, they are proxying it. If you see the 3rd pylon, it is highly unlikely a 3 gate star build will come your way. However, it is still possible, but it just be delayed quite a lot. Also, if you poke up their ramp (say you are doing a 1 rax expand, you would poke up their ramp when you have 2 marauders 1 marine and conc shells) and see their unit composition. If it is fairly gas heavy (mainly sentries), the protoss is likely not going to 3 gate star you. If you see a lot of zealots and stalkers, you can expect some sort of gas build (stargate, DT, 1 base collossus) As for dealing with the push itself, you can tech to vikings, but if you do not have the tech, use turrets. Also, a VERY important tip is to leave your scouting SCV at their expansion. Don't be afraid to build a lot of static defence if your opponent is not expanding. It means they are all-in and the only way for them to win is to kill you. | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On May 14 2011 04:22 Kelmqtlol wrote: How early is a "early" for a second gas? This Protoss gets it at 19 supply, which I thought 19-20 was pretty standard for a second gas. Also, would you by chance have any replays of you against Protoss so I could see how you execute the opener and compare it to my own? Thanks for all the replies everyone, I appreciate the help If you see a second gas go down while your scouting worker is still alive in the Protoss base, you should assume the worst. Especially if he cuts the first zealot and goes stalker first. Here is my TvP build. It's what I exclusively use or other small variations of it. I'm not a fan of Bio or Mech. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190 Here's a build order for the opener I use as well...this should cover what you want I believe. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185963 | ||
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