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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fmyA5.jpg)
Hello TL,
Ever since I started playing Terran, I've repeatedly run into one build that constantly shuts me down. I typically open with a 2 Rax Expand, but 3 Gate Proxy Stargate just destroys me. There isn't any way for me to scout it, and once it's arrived at my doorstep I don't know what I can't do to prevent myself from losing.
Is there way I can recognize this is happening? If not, is there a proper response so that i don't immediately die? I realize that I didn't micro very well since I went into a panicked state, but I'm not sure if focus firing the Void Rays with my Marines would have been enough?
Also, please excuse the awful BM at the end of the game. This build has occurred to me multiple times recently and I kind of lost it there. =/
Thanks in advance for any advice 
http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/12-05-11/38053-Kelmqtlol-VS-SunYiQun.html?justUp=1
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I agree, scouting it is actually one of the hardest things to do since all build orders for protoss typically look the same. Your best bet is to look for the expo timing (keep a scv at his natural or close to it and look out for when his expansion is coming). If you don't see an expansion by the 5-6 minute mark then you know some protoss shenanigans is going on. DT's, 4 gate, or 3gate stargate. Also if you choose to scout his base see if he throws down his 3rd pylon. If you don't scout his 3rd pylon then you know hes going to proxy something
Hope this helps you
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scout
At the front for instance, if you see he has 3 gates, but is only making one or two units at a time, you can assume he is about to or has just spent money on something else. Whether it be an expo, or a stargate, or a robo facility.
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scan it up. 2 gas and only 3 gates means he's up to something, especially if he's low on sentry count or looks like he has a low army value.
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Wouldn't a 3rax stim push simply roll over it completely?
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I spit my water out when i saw the pic in the op
With your scv scout, check when the 2nd gas goes up. 3wg star has a very early 2nd gas going up before the usual 20 so keep an eye out for that. Thats your biggest clue that some kind of tech attack is coming whether its star or DT so get your ebay going right away. Make sure that the rax with your tech lab researching stim is not in a place that can get sniped easily. Throw down bunkers and focus the voidray with your bunker. Make sure to a-click the void ray ( DO NOT RIGHT CLICK THE VOID RAY THE BUNKER WILL NOT ATTACK IT)
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As people have said, more scouting is needed. You can at least see that your opponent is one-basing, and improve your defenses accordingly. You also need to avoid just spaming marauders when you have no idea what your opponent is doing. They may be uber units, but they still can't shoot up.
Targetting the void rays is important, but as mentioned you simply hadn't bothered to build enough marines.
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i do this strat because i hate your little trollface marauders.
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On May 13 2011 16:36 closey wrote:
Wouldn't a 3rax stim push simply roll over it completely?
Yes but this fails against most other protoss builds (I am a Master League Terran)
Any decent toss that sees you do this will hold it, then you are behind either on tech or bases depending (normally tech though)
No use saying "Well won't this build beat it" The OP said he likes to open with a 2rax FE which is a pretty good eco pressure build and one I favour myself.
Dear OP
I personally deal with this by if I see really fast double gas... Keep an eye on sentry count and his expo timing. Then I get an ebay so I can get turrets (This stops DT and Stargate tom foolery) Then I would build my expo In my base! and turtle up with bunkers etc... That way when his push fails. You are ahead.
I am writing this at work so I will admit I did not watch the reply these are just general comments. I hope this helps you out.
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I watched your replay and this is the things i think you should improve.
When your scouting scv reaches his base your first job is to look at gas 2nd job is does he have a second pylon 3rd what is his nexus doing is he cronoboosting something and 4th what comes from the gate.You saw a stalker most of the time that means 4gate or some sort of pressure so you should be prepere for it.One more thing your decision making was poor always build your CC in the base make it a OC make 2rounds of scvs and 1 mule and then land it on expo 2nd thing why did your rush for stim insted of combat shiled when you are not planing on attackin soon.Combat shield helps rly good vs voidrays and you can beat this small pushes with Combat shield and shells pretty ez.Another thing is that you didn't stim your guys in the bunker and last but not least 2rax expand is a pressure build you attack the toss and expand on it you didn't do that you had no idea what was he doing so if you feel afraid attacking just don't do that build i suggest doing the oGsTOP build with 1rax CC into more raxes with lots of marines.Here is a Replay of TOP doing it vs MC
If you want to stick with your 2 rax expand then watch some qxc replays he does pretty nice stuff and well executes this opening another variation to be extra safe is the SeleCT style just build a reaper after your rauder and scout around.
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The last time I did this build the Terran blind thor rushed me T_T_T_T_T_T.
I couldn't do anything with my pro void ray 
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On May 13 2011 18:46 Jakkerr wrote:The last time I did this build the Terran blind thor rushed me T_T_T_T_T_T. I couldn't do anything with my pro void ray
I a not 110% sure here.... But would a charged voidray not beat a thor 1v1? What with the extra damage against Massive....
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On May 13 2011 18:46 Jakkerr wrote:The last time I did this build the Terran blind thor rushed me T_T_T_T_T_T. I couldn't do anything with my pro void ray
pretty sure 3WG+ VR counters thor rush
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On May 13 2011 18:48 Slyce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 18:46 Jakkerr wrote:The last time I did this build the Terran blind thor rushed me T_T_T_T_T_T. I couldn't do anything with my pro void ray I a not 110% sure here.... But would a charged voidray not beat a thor 1v1? What with the extra damage against Massive....
The problem is that Thor rush builds pump out a fair few marines as support. Still, if you are going to run into an unscouted Thor rush, 3gate star with voidrays gives you a better chance than most other builds.
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1 rax FE with lots of marines and a few missile turrets holds pretty well.
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On May 13 2011 19:17 CecilSunkure wrote:
1 rax FE with lots of marines and a few missile turrets holds pretty well.
The OP said he opens 2rax FE...
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With your 2 rax expo, if you keep pumping units, you should have enough to hold this push. When I face this push on ladder, I find that I have more than enough units. Stim is usually done before the push for me and I just focus the voids with my marines. I'm not home right now so I can't check the replay yet, but I personally don't think you need to "scout" to counter this strat if I see two gas and not many sentries I'll get a preemptive ebay which I use for upgrades soon afterwards anyways. I'll add more once I'm able to see the replay!
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Actually as a Thor rusher, I'm fine against a void rusher. The 2 rushes tend to cancel each other out i feel. I Usu stop at 2-3 thors if i get void harassed and then switch to mass marines and get starport tech asap.
The main thing about the thors supporting marines is that void harass can't kite the thors+ marine army on defence like they can kite pure marines. I can't really attack properly either as thors auto target voids instead of targeting stalkers.
Usually both just end up expanding and the game goes on.
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You need to see how fast he gets his gas and how many sentries that he makes, I know that when I do those kinds of builds against my friends I am always making much less sentries due to the fact that I had to build a star gate and VRs. Another thing would be don't wall off if you are, really easily harassed by these types of builds.
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I don't have any trouble against this build at all. I play a 1 rax reaper fast expand and build mostly marines at the beginning. So with 1 or 2 bunkers you can shut him down pretty easily. A 2 rax expand tends to be more marauder heavy at the start which might be the reason for your problems against this build. A lot of terrans like to get marauders fairly early which isn't really a solid way to open in my opinion.
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I can´t acctualy give you a counter or even a hind. I just can´t say that the scouting of an Protoss is quit hard this days. I like it a lot to just crono boost my first Stalker and to clean up my base from any scouts.
I´m a really bad Terran player and can´t say you if you are able to scan my base before my 3 gate push knocks on your door but it will be the only way to know whats going on in my base.
Please just quit me if I´m wrong. And also for my english 
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Masters level Terran here.
2 Rax expand builds are really, really safe. You can defend almost all assortments of Protoss attacks with simply mass marines and bunkers from your barracks. There is no need to get marauders, as your marines will be enough to defend any ground pushes. Build your expansion inside your base so that it is less of a liability and you have less ground to defend.
I always 2 Rax expand vs Protoss. Always xD. If I ever scout double gas early, it's a straight marine pump from there on to defend against any potential Stargate play.
Never forgo bunkers when you expand. It's such a small price to pay to keep you nearly completely safe from plays like this.
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There have been some terrans I faced on ladder that dealt with this wonderfully. It is imperative that you check for the relatively early 2nd gas as mentioned above. A standard reaper scout is wonderful for this, even if you lose him, the information is so valuable especially vs this. Most of the terrans that I fought then started sending scvs out sneakily to try and scout around the map while trying to avoid my stalker and zealot out on the field.
Most of them dropped an engineering bay so that a turret could finish 25 seconds before the normal DT timing would be. Coincidentally it isnt too far off the stargate play and they can hold it off once they stop your initial poke/push. So it seems against very safe builds that work via that 2nd gas and tech option trigger, it will not be as effective.
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On May 13 2011 19:33 Slyce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 19:17 CecilSunkure wrote:
1 rax FE with lots of marines and a few missile turrets holds pretty well. The OP said he opens 2rax FE...
Two rax expand gives you marauders which as we all know aren't so good against void rays. Cecil is right, a 1 rax FE into a 3-5 rax is great for holding this, and the turrets are just icing, since you should have them in case of dark temps anyways.
I believe it is MarineKingPrime vs. oGsMC in the semifinals of the GSL world championships that MC executes the 4 gate gas first void ray cheese. This comes before the standard three gate void ray and is even more difficult to hold. MarineKing holds it with only 3 barracks after a 1 barracks fast expand. Rewatch this series, as it really shows the strength of the 1 rax fast expand over the two rax fast expand because of flexibility. And until a lot of stalkers are out, marines do just fine against protoss.
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Count his Pylons. Remember how many Supply Depots you've built, and make sure you find that many Pylons in his base. If you see one missing, assume proxy something.
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On May 13 2011 19:33 Slyce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 19:17 CecilSunkure wrote:
1 rax FE with lots of marines and a few missile turrets holds pretty well. The OP said he opens 2rax FE...
Oh great, I guess you know better than me. Unless it was a gasless 2 rax FE, then that's going to only hurt him in terms of opportunity cost.
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On May 14 2011 00:26 Synystyr wrote:
Masters level Terran here.
2 Rax expand builds are really, really safe. You can defend almost all assortments of Protoss attacks with simply mass marines and bunkers from your barracks. There is no need to get marauders, as your marines will be enough to defend any ground pushes. Build your expansion inside your base so that it is less of a liability and you have less ground to defend.
I always 2 Rax expand vs Protoss. Always xD. If I ever scout double gas early, it's a straight marine pump from there on to defend against any potential Stargate play.
Never forgo bunkers when you expand. It's such a small price to pay to keep you nearly completely safe from plays like this.
How early is a "early" for a second gas? This Protoss gets it at 19 supply, which I thought 19-20 was pretty standard for a second gas. Also, would you by chance have any replays of you against Protoss so I could see how you execute the opener and compare it to my own?
Thanks for all the replies everyone, I appreciate the help
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if you see early 2nd gas, high chrono boost, and no expansion, then its probably a Stargate build. Mass Rine/Tank/Viking can handle it. It may also be a dt build (dt builds often lack chrono boost). Either way, use a scv to begin scouting for proxy buildings.
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On May 14 2011 04:37 Mr_Kyo wrote:
if you see early 2nd gas, high chrono boost, and no expansion, then its probably a Stargate build. Mass Rine/Tank/Viking can handle it. It may also be a dt build (dt builds often lack chrono boost). Either way, use a scv to begin scouting for proxy buildings.
I don't think I can have Tanks and Vikings ready that early in the game to handle this push?
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Scout for buildings with an scv, just queue it to go all over the place. Other than that, its just a micro battle. Once you see the stargate or voidrays at your base ONLY make marines, and get an engy bay and try to get a defensive turret to stop him from pushing on forward and killing you completely. Keep your marines alive and focus down the void rays, try not to let it get charged, its tough to do that if you wall in though.
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The only time this build should EVER beat you is if you get greedy and tech, or open with marauders. In the NA server especially, I've noticed that the marauder opening is very popular for Terrans. They feel safe behind the concussive shells. However, this makes you EXTREMELY vulnerable to Void Ray or DT Rushes. IF you want to play safe, do a 2-rax expand with marines into siege tanks. alongside with a bunker or two, and a high marine count, you should not lose to voids/3gate.
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On May 13 2011 19:52 Baum wrote:
A lot of terrans like to get marauders fairly early which isn't really a solid way to open in my opinion.
Bingo. If there are a lot of Gateway units, Marauders are fine, but the counter to them is air units, and thus this build counters Marauder heavy openings.
Of course without lots of Marauders you can't be as aggressive since Marines are frail and can be kited by Stalkers, but I think Terrans have been overly aggressive for a long time and this build simply makes them pay for it. If you go for a more defensive opener, one with some more Marines and Bunkers and less Marauders and you should hold it with ease.
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I do 2 rax FE and always go poke with 2 marauders a marine and an scv for a bunker asap, mostly for scouting, but then rally to his ramp if I can do some damage and I find if he's going proxy stargate I can tell by how few units he's got. If I am suspicious I rerally to my mineral lines, pump marines and throw up bunkers in the right positions.
I can't remember ever losing to it because if I force him to make gw units to defend he gets fewer voids later, and it's generally pretty easy to deal with. Or he doesn't make enough gw units and I just kill him.
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On May 13 2011 16:18 Trufflez wrote:scout At the front for instance, if you see he has 3 gates, but is only making one or two units at a time, you can assume he is about to or has just spent money on something else. Whether it be an expo, or a stargate, or a robo facility.
As a Terran player who has been in this situation, all I can say is that what you said doesn't help at all. How can you scout that it is in fact proxy Stargate instead of Robo or a Nexus. It's super hard to scout and when it comes if you don't have the right composition/missile turrets or MarineKing micro, it kills you. And to be honest, personally I think that the 3 Gate Stargate play looks more like a DT rush than anything else that Protoss can do.
Granted, the same thing is true for Terran to an extent, as a fast Factory could be Banshees or Thors. Of course Blizzard also changed Thors so that they're awful in this match-up, so who knows? (And I know that that wasn't the only reason Blizzard changed the Thor, but that was part of it as early Thor Pushes with Cannons were exceedingly effective against early expos and Immortals vs P because the P never handled it correctly).
On May 13 2011 16:36 closey wrote:
Wouldn't a 3rax stim push simply roll over it completely?
The point isn't that a 3rax Stim push beats it, it's that if I do a 3 Rax Stim push and he doesn't go 3 Gate Proxy Stargate then your push fails. If I know that my opponent will go for DTs every game I would do a push with a Raven every game, as I basically will auto-win. But I don't know that and if I try to get tech like that and he attacks with a 4 Gate/hyper aggressive build then suddenly I lose.
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Im a diamond protoss player, do this build against terran few every once in a while in this matchup. The best way to scout it is to what the sentry count. You cant produce that many sentries AND get your stargate/voidray out for a good timing. Usually the protoss will be short on units or even zealot heavy, very good indications of tech, and in TvP its usually stargate or dt so either way a eBay is the counter for both. Hope this helps you =D
Edit: Also if you notice something is fishy, cancel expo and get a 3rd rax. If you try to expo against a 1 base push, you really have no chance at staying alive.
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I think after your 2 rax expo you should add 2 more rax, blindly. Watch for MKP and MVP builds in the world championship in both their semi finals (free to watch on gomtv).
That's now my standard vP build (one rax expo then 3 more rax,sometimes 4 more), it's safe against everything and can at the same time punish some greedy openings (while being greedy itself), with a somewhat fast engbay for +1 and/or turrets. Only make one techlab (not on your wallin rax if you wallin, as the 3gatestargate timing usually hits just before stim finishes, and if the techlab is sniped it's very hard to defend).
Add addons to your raxes as you see fit and as the game develop, and tech normally, it's just a starting bo which is very nice I think.
edit : if you stay on 2 rax like some people are suggesting it's impossible to defend. (or at least very hard)
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On May 13 2011 16:36 closey wrote:
Wouldn't a 3rax stim push simply roll over it completely?
No, this is not true. A 3rax stim push comes much later than a protoss 3 gate star build. The protoss will contain you in your base with force fields and will camp outside your base. He will expand, and you will not be able to expand until you have medivacs, which will take a while.
A good way to scout for 3 gate star is to check if the protoss made his 3rd pylon in his base. With your scouting SCV, you should spot a 3rd pylon in the protoss base about 10 seconds before the stalker pops out. If you don't see the 3rd pylon, they are proxying it. If you see the 3rd pylon, it is highly unlikely a 3 gate star build will come your way. However, it is still possible, but it just be delayed quite a lot. Also, if you poke up their ramp (say you are doing a 1 rax expand, you would poke up their ramp when you have 2 marauders 1 marine and conc shells) and see their unit composition. If it is fairly gas heavy (mainly sentries), the protoss is likely not going to 3 gate star you. If you see a lot of zealots and stalkers, you can expect some sort of gas build (stargate, DT, 1 base collossus)
As for dealing with the push itself, you can tech to vikings, but if you do not have the tech, use turrets. Also, a VERY important tip is to leave your scouting SCV at their expansion. Don't be afraid to build a lot of static defence if your opponent is not expanding. It means they are all-in and the only way for them to win is to kill you.
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On May 14 2011 04:22 Kelmqtlol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 00:26 Synystyr wrote:
Masters level Terran here.
2 Rax expand builds are really, really safe. You can defend almost all assortments of Protoss attacks with simply mass marines and bunkers from your barracks. There is no need to get marauders, as your marines will be enough to defend any ground pushes. Build your expansion inside your base so that it is less of a liability and you have less ground to defend.
I always 2 Rax expand vs Protoss. Always xD. If I ever scout double gas early, it's a straight marine pump from there on to defend against any potential Stargate play.
Never forgo bunkers when you expand. It's such a small price to pay to keep you nearly completely safe from plays like this. How early is a "early" for a second gas? This Protoss gets it at 19 supply, which I thought 19-20 was pretty standard for a second gas. Also, would you by chance have any replays of you against Protoss so I could see how you execute the opener and compare it to my own? Thanks for all the replies everyone, I appreciate the help
If you see a second gas go down while your scouting worker is still alive in the Protoss base, you should assume the worst. Especially if he cuts the first zealot and goes stalker first.
Here is my TvP build. It's what I exclusively use or other small variations of it. I'm not a fan of Bio or Mech.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190
Here's a build order for the opener I use as well...this should cover what you want I believe.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185963
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EPT
