EPT[Q] ZvZ 14/14 vs 14/14, avoiding ling bane wars - Page 2
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
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zylog
Canada943 Posts
When your pool finishes, you make 2 sets of lings right away, start ling speed, your queen and then make 1 drone with the next larva. Rally that drone egg to your expansion and you should have enough minerals to expand when it gets there. Meanwhile, you should be active with your lings, to know where your opponent's lings are at all times (use overlords to help spot) and also keep track of how many there are. You have to keep up with his production, which may mean not making any drones at all. The thing about early game speedling vs speedling is that if your opponent has more lings than you, you retreat, but as you retreat, your own reinforcements will be arriving sooner so your opponent is forced to pull back. By making a hatch, you do lose some ground, but keep in mind that when your opponent morphs banelings, his ling count goes down. If he morphs them all at once, you can attack his lings for a short while to whittle his numbers down. The further out he morphs them from your base, the more space you have to try to pick off a baneling using only 1-2 lings, which is a good trade. So, if your opponent goes with lots of banelings, you have to micro to trade as efficiently as possible. If it's more speedling heavy, be prepared to take some damage on your hatch as you wait for your roaches to come out. If he attacks your hatch, you attack his lings. If his lings attack you, you pull away to buy time and repeat. When the banes come, you try to trade evenly with your lings. Once your roaches come, use them to focus fire the banes, and use your mass speedling to hold back his mass speedling. | ||
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
On May 07 2011 19:29 aebriol wrote: How would you know it's close spawn at 9 supply? You know if it's a "close spawn" map, where even cross spawning positions are reasonably close. This is my default build on Xelnaga, Metal, Slag pits - the maps where you have wide open, tough to defend naturals. This build permits a drone scout at 10 supply after the pool is building. Between your overlord and a drone, you can determine your opponent's position before your lings are building. Often, if they are close to you, they will reveal themselves with a drone scout of their own right before you would send yours out. It's not important that they spawn close though it does help. Simply knowing whether or not the build is appropriate for the map is all that you need to know at 9 supply. | ||
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Dellward
Australia138 Posts
To avoid the ling/bling shitfight, you essentially need to behave a lot more like a Terran or Protoss player; turtle up, give up map control and push out at a point that you know you're strong. Given the difficulty of taking and holding a natural on a lot of maps, this usually means you have to do a 1-base timing push of some kind, and then expand off of that. When I don't feel like Ling/Bling, I usually do a day9 fast lair build (See day9 daily #242). One of the safest builds out there, and gives you all sorts of options for a great timing push. | ||
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DetrA
United States148 Posts
This isn't easy vs baneling builds. If you want to be very safe go defensive baneling than transition into roaches. | ||
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dc302
Australia576 Posts
On May 07 2011 17:55 saus wrote: So you have 1 hatchery and let your opponent expand and drone away. The only way out of this is a rush for infestors or mutas. I like to speedling expand, get roaches if i see baneling nest or continued gas mining, and try to micro my roaches/queens to take out banelings and a bunch of lings to clean up his lings. I've only played a few games where i do this build vs banelings though so maybe there's some micro or timing that works really well vs it. When did i say anytihng like that? I said if they are going banelings/all in you block your ramp. I did not say anything about staying in your base if they expand. | ||
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jazzbassmatt
United States566 Posts
On May 07 2011 20:04 DetrA wrote: Please don't listen to the people saying 9 pool. 14 gas 14 pool is safe vs early pool. To avoid bane wars pull drones off gas after speed finishes and build an expansion. Build 2 queens and a spine crawler for defense than transition into roaches. This isn't easy vs baneling builds. If you want to be very safe go defensive baneling than transition into roaches. Did you mean to pull gas after speed finishes? Or did you mean to pull after you spend your 100 first gas on speed? | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
In the video, EGMachine goes over a speedling/roach expand build. You may want to check it out. | ||
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ProbeIke
56 Posts
To deny him attacking your expo, move your roaches to the bottom of the ramp, and once you have five you can send one or two to get his lings if they're on the other side of the hatch. Once your hatchery plops, move the crawler to the bottom of you ramp, as if it were a protoss pylon when he's expoing, and then make another crawler directly in front of the hatchery, (Or in the mineral line, it better helps the workers) and move your roaches between the crawler at the bottom of your ramp and the hatchery. If your roach numbers aren't sufficient by then, well, make more until you have enough to attack. Either do that or tech to infestors and possibly mutas for the mid game. Lair should start (For me) once the second crawler is done. | ||
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DetrA
United States148 Posts
On May 07 2011 20:18 jazzbassmatt wrote: Did you mean to pull gas after speed finishes? Or did you mean to pull after you spend your 100 first gas on speed? After your first 100 gas | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
You basically make 4-6 zerglings after the standard zergling speed + queen, at 21 pop put down a roach warren, 21 again make an extra overlord and pull drones at 125 gas (after the initial 100 for speed) The queen inject, overlord and roach warren will time out so that you can make 5 roaches as soon as possible. When they pop you send them to the opponent, make an overlord and make two rounds of speedlings rallied to the roaches. You'll have enough minerals to make a queen before the second round of speedlings (use it to snipe overlords), and after that enough to put down your natural expo. I'm only in diamond so no idea if it works in higher leagues, the only time I lost with this is because the opponent cut drones after the initial 15 and massed lings, catching the roaches before my lings caught up. If the opponent made more roaches and spines on his ramp you can't engage as well, but it is worthwhile to note that 5 roaches with ling support can take on a lot more roaches in the early game. And this sucks on long distances. You can also use the 5 roaches to block your ramp if you see banelings and are scared to move out, and make 2 rounds of drones instead of the zerglings, putting you at a drone advantage. Edit : spelling, and sorry for the wall of text  | ||
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HOTSLocusT
Canada10 Posts
Just my though. Welcome any advise myself. ZvZ is a really hard match up. | ||
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
If you watch morrow vs moon in the NASL you'll get a good example of why you CAN'T go roaches. That being said you can do a roach timing, or a roach expand on SOME maps but its extremely vulnerable vs mass lings and most zergs will do it. You can 15 hatch on most maps though, and then defend with queens and spine. My games go on to roach if my opponent does a roach opener (cancel bnest) or if we both FE. Ling baneling war is hard to avoid without putting yourself in a tough spot, unfortunately. Good Luck! | ||
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scarymeerkat
Canada107 Posts
On May 07 2011 20:04 DetrA wrote: Please don't listen to the people saying 9 pool. 14 gas 14 pool is safe vs early pool. To avoid bane wars pull drones off gas after speed finishes and build an expansion. Build 2 queens and a spine crawler for defense than transition into roaches. This isn't easy vs baneling builds. If you want to be very safe go defensive baneling than transition into roaches. This^^ I feel that defensive banelings are very strong zvz. It allows you to get up a fast, very safe expansion around the same time that you would vs a T or P if you 14pooled. This doesn't necessarily constitute ling baneling wars, it's just opening up banelings in order to get an economic foothold and tech to something like roaches. Naturally, you are very safe against ling all-ins but you do need to watch out for people teching straight to roaches, as you need to put down your own roach warren as soon as this is scouted. | ||
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Kornholi0
Canada634 Posts
Queens are just important in baneling wars, constant queen production (well like 4-6) with lair after the first 2 will probably solve most of your problems... I've been baneling wared on huge maps like Tal Cross map and large maps do no dictate macro games in ZvZ, scouting does. PLease please please scout your opponents bases >.> Overlords should be placed exactly along the path to his base and even in his base until his pool pops. Then when that happens move your ovie to his expo if its already started (not finished) go punish it and keep pumping lings until you break it make a roach warren and defend your base. Or you could just build 24 banelings and snipe is hatch =D | ||
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Kornholi0
Canada634 Posts
On May 07 2011 19:29 aebriol wrote: How would you know it's close spawn at 9 supply? Early drone scout... It cuts into your pool production but not exactly by a lot if you scout the base. If you don't scout that base then you get a later pool etc etc. But to be fair it would make 100% more sense to do a 10pool imo... | ||
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pwadoc
271 Posts
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dave333
United States915 Posts
By taking an expo however, you are forcing him to be a aggressive or fall behind, and then it goes back to an execution of who wins. Alternatively, on some maps you can go 16 hatch, roach warren before queen, and defend with roaches and speedlings. I find this harder however, as the smaller ling numbers make scouting his drone number/speedling numbers difficult, and you can potentially fall behind if you make too many roaches. The other problem is obviously that roaches aren't very good against speedlings till you have like 10, otherwise you need your ramp. On maps like xel naga, not particularly easy to do. | ||
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