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Ok, so I'm trying my best to learn ZvZ, but theres so many early game things to look out for its kind of hard for me. I know for expand maps like LT you go 15/14 then roaches to defend etc.
However for maps where you must go 14 gas/14 pool I'm not really sure how to go about this. I want to try and avoid ling bane wars. Obviously if I want to go ling bane, then I'll just go this route unless I scout a warren. However what if I dont want to do this and want to play a more mid game instead? So I got 3 questions
1. I'm afraid if I put down a warren after I get out some initial lings, I can be susceptible to a speedling all in as my roaches numbers will be small and also if I do this, my opponent can instead expand and drone up while I get roaches and take map control with speedlings.
2. If I go just speedling expand I'll get destroyed by speedling and baneling
3. I dont really know when to properly expand. Usually when I go 14/14 I got for a 21 expand and try to defend it but I find even this dies.
Please help, Im lost
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ZvZ is extremely hard to deny baneling wars, the only real way to prevent it is if you scout the pool and throw down spines and get queens for defense instead of roaches... I can't say much ZvZ is a really hard match up if one person just wants to out-aggress the other person with banelings and speedlings.
I guess a 7rr is the best thing you could do -.-
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On May 07 2011 17:13 Kornholi0 wrote:
ZvZ is extremely hard to deny baneling wars, the only real way to prevent it is if you scout the pool and throw down spines and get queens for defense instead of roaches... I can't say much ZvZ is a really hard match up if one person just wants to out-aggress the other person with banelings and speedlings.
I guess a 7rr is the best thing you could do -.-
That being said, I heard MrBitter say his default is just ling bane, if he sees an expansion where it shouldn't be, ling bane and kill it off. If your opponent goes speedling ling bane his ass out, and if your opponent goes ling bane as well, may the best micro win. Is this pretty much what it comes down to in non expand maps? Also if your opponent goes roaches I'm assuming you take map control and drone then getting roaches later?
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9 pool into double queen to block the ramp.
6 zerglings to harras his mineral line, slow him down, by the time his initial banelings even try to get to your base you'll have to queens blocking the ramp with enough energy to transfuse (if need be).
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On May 07 2011 17:13 Kornholi0 wrote:
ZvZ is extremely hard to deny baneling wars, the only real way to prevent it is if you scout the pool and throw down spines and get queens for defense instead of roaches... I can't say much ZvZ is a really hard match up if one person just wants to out-aggress the other person with banelings and speedlings.
I guess a 7rr is the best thing you could do -.-
7rr is easily held off.
If you absolutely hate baneling wars, simply throw down a roach warren after you get your gas/queen, then block your ramp with 6 roaches. Drone up, if you thikn he is going to baneling bust you, you will need a few more roaches, at least 9 (for 3 layers of blockage).
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On May 07 2011 17:13 Kornholi0 wrote:
ZvZ is extremely hard to deny baneling wars, the only real way to prevent it is if you scout the pool and throw down spines and get queens for defense instead of roaches... I can't say much ZvZ is a really hard match up if one person just wants to out-aggress the other person with banelings and speedlings.
I guess a 7rr is the best thing you could do -.-
Scout the pool? Like scouting a Gateway or scouting a Barracks? Do you throw always immediately throw down spines when you see the first building by your opponent?
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Well you pretty much said everything you need to know about zvz in your post. IF you want at all cost to avoid a bane war, the best solution is to go roach and just block your ramp, but that can set you far behind as your opponent only has to go for expand and pure drone and he'll be safe against anything you throw as long as he makes a roach warren himself and has good overlord positioning(btw overlords r the most important unit in the zvz mu(them and infestors but that's late game :D)).
If in the other hand you take a fast expand, you've mostly 3 options. 1 is go roach, and try to make as few as necessary, but still enuff not to die(its there that the overlod thing becomes important again, as it allows you to see how much your opponent is commiting to the attack. The other option is to go faster gas after the fe, and go speeling bane. That might leave you a bit vulnerable to fast banes, so its not really that gr8 if u see ur opponent is one base. And the third option is to go spine crawlers as your main defense, but that has its problems to, as it makes it impossible for you to be agressive.
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On May 07 2011 17:39 dc302 wrote:
7rr is easily held off.
If you absolutely hate baneling wars, simply throw down a roach warren after you get your gas/queen, then block your ramp with 6 roaches. Drone up, if you thikn he is going to baneling bust you, you will need a few more roaches, at least 9 (for 3 layers of blockage).
So you have 1 hatchery and let your opponent expand and drone away. The only way out of this is a rush for infestors or mutas.
I like to speedling expand, get roaches if i see baneling nest or continued gas mining, and try to micro my roaches/queens to take out banelings and a bunch of lings to clean up his lings. I've only played a few games where i do this build vs banelings though so maybe there's some micro or timing that works really well vs it.
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On May 07 2011 17:23 SweetAs wrote:
9 pool into double queen to block the ramp.
6 zerglings to harras his mineral line, slow him down, by the time his initial banelings even try to get to your base you'll have to queens blocking the ramp with enough energy to transfuse (if need be).
I open 9pool any map with close spawns. I get told I'm a dirty cheeser a lot, but I don't really consider it cheese - the goal of this build is something like, 9pool, make 6 lings, get a queen, make only drones, get a 2nd queen and 1 spine crawler, block your ramp. GG! Now you play like a terran. If they went hatch first you win the game, if they went 14/14 you get to deal some damage, if they went early pool then you're on equal footing.
The response I get is one of three things, generally:
1) they quit cause they dont like ling rushes/i kill all their drones
2) deal damage, wall off with queens, hold off a crazy ling all-in and win because you have more drones, maybe expand
3) dont deal much damage with lings, they macro up and expand. your goal is now to do a quick 1base allin, i like roach +1/speed timing (it looks like a 1base muta build if you hide the roaches). If this is how it turns out, you need to be very attentive at denying overlord scouts.
Although this strategy isn't very late game focused, it definitely does avoid the ling/bane wars. I don't think it's cheese because it doesn't really rely on the first 6 lings to win the game, it has plans for the future. The earlier queen somewhat helps you catch up the economy you lose from the early aggression, and if you score some kills with your lings you'll be ahead.
However, the queen wall is pretty much the crux of this build. Be sure you are very good at holding position on that ramp.
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generally if ur trying to expand against ling bane, u are forced into defensive banelings as well UNLESS the your mineral line can be partially walled off e.g. shakuras u can make half a wall with roach warren spine and queen, this way u can defend with spine, roach, ling, and queen
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On May 07 2011 18:05 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 17:23 SweetAs wrote:
9 pool into double queen to block the ramp.
6 zerglings to harras his mineral line, slow him down, by the time his initial banelings even try to get to your base you'll have to queens blocking the ramp with enough energy to transfuse (if need be). I open 9pool any map with close spawns. I get told I'm a dirty cheeser a lot, but I don't really consider it cheese - the goal of this build is something like, 9pool, make 6 lings, get a queen, make only drones, get a 2nd queen and 1 spine crawler, block your ramp. GG! Now you play like a terran. If they went hatch first you win the game, if they went 14/14 you get to deal some damage, if they went early pool then you're on equal footing. The response I get is one of three things, generally: 1) they quit cause they dont like ling rushes/i kill all their drones 2) deal damage, wall off with queens, hold off a crazy ling all-in and win because you have more drones, maybe expand 3) dont deal much damage with lings, they macro up and expand. your goal is now to do a quick 1base allin, i like roach +1/speed timing (it looks like a 1base muta build if you hide the roaches). If this is how it turns out, you need to be very attentive at denying overlord scouts. Although this strategy isn't very late game focused, it definitely does avoid the ling/bane wars. I don't think it's cheese because it doesn't really rely on the first 6 lings to win the game, it has plans for the future. The earlier queen somewhat helps you catch up the economy you lose from the early aggression, and if you score some kills with your lings you'll be ahead. However, the queen wall is pretty much the crux of this build. Be sure you are very good at holding position on that ramp.
I almost always use the build unless the map is scrap station or any other map that has a big ramp. I disagree with one of your comments, I definitely think it is macro game orientated. This is because behind your two queens you are allowed freedom to drone massively and then expand with ease. The only real threat I consider when using this build is quick muta, but again, that is nullified by scouting relentlessly. Although the build allows for great timings, I think you still have a good enough economy to continue on to the late game as per usual. Anyway, who wants to play a long macro zvz.. that's way too stressful xD
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"3) dont deal much damage with lings, they macro up and expand. your goal is now to do a quick 1base allin, i like roach +1/speed timing (it looks like a 1base muta build if you hide the roaches). If this is how it turns out, you need to be very attentive at denying overlord scouts."
So if your opponent is scouting well and has good game sense, he stops making drones at the appropriate time, is on 2 base, holds off your all in and wins?
"This is because behind your two queens you are allowed freedom to drone massively and then expand with ease."
When do you expand? You're on 1 base so have limited larva (unless you make a macro hatch, but that's 2 queens sitting at your ramp + a hatchery=600 minerals that aren't something more useful) so you're not going to have any units if you're droning a lot. Your opponent presumably already has his expo up so you're behind anyway.
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I think it's so map dependent. In maps like Shakuras Plateau, you can win every single ZvZ with roach strategies against ling-baneling because of the ramp structure and access to the natural is too difficult from low ground with ling-baneling. But if you play in something like Xel'Naga Caverns or Scrap Station, where you can't deny ling-baneling access to your nat, you can't skip ling-baneling and thus you can't avoid ling-baneling wars.
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On May 07 2011 18:39 saus wrote:When do you expand? You're on 1 base so have limited larva (unless you make a macro hatch, but that's 2 queens sitting at your ramp + a hatchery=600 minerals that aren't really useful?) so you're not going to have any units if you're droning a lot. Your opponent presumably already has his expo up so you're behind anyway.
The fact that you assumed you need a macro hatch to keep up with larvae instead of simply producing a third queen just screams gold league. Sorry.
Let me explain:
You have two queens to block the ramp, you still have another queen for injections (the third queen is produced as soon as your second queen pops). So as a running total, if you can count, is 3 queens. From there, you drone, and once you warren pops (which is started roughly around the same time as your third queen) you make 4 roaches. After that you can either expand or get lair for a quick timing push.
Also, your opponent won't have a hatchery because he will be to busy trying to re-drone/counter attack. All of this droning + roaches happens while your harassing his base with your initial 6 lings.
Also, read what you said "Your opponent presumably already has his expo up so you're behind anyway" The fact that you think your opponent will be silly enough to expand after 9 pool lings is hilarious because he would as good as dead. The smallest amount of lings combined with your 4 roaches would destroy him.
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If you want to play ZvZ and not lose to smart players but want to deny ling/baneling wars. You might aswell not play ZvZ.
The thing about ling baneling is that it decides who gets map control. And the one with the map controll gets to drone. The person that gets to drone, wins a ZvZ. Its that simple.
If you're good at ZvZ, you're good at ling-baneling. Just like if you're good at PvP, you're good at 4gating. You can however, just like PvP, decide to be the defending ling-banelinger. The way you get this stance is by getting one or two more drones in the start in favour of lings.
This grants a few benefits:
- You are able to 'wall' your mineral line in with an evo chamber and a spinecrawler.
- You can get the +1 ranged attack for your future roaches up way faster than he can.
- With good micro you shouldn't lose much of any drones at all.
You have a drone advantage. Its just your job to keep it. If he backs off, great, you can get your roach warren up and do a 1base +1 range push with lings as back up.
If get gets an expansion, even better, crush him with the push while expanding behind it.
If he keeps up the pressure, thats EVEN better. Because once your roaches pop, his banelings will get sniped like its nobodies bussiness and he won't have any way to have enough gas to get roaches of himself up.
If the pressure gets too much, or he baneling-busts your spine and queen, hoping to snipe them, just make another queen and replace the one on the front while getting a roach warren.
If you want to play a high level ZvZ, but you don't want to go ling-baneling. The only possible solution is to go hatch first into roaches every game. Even then, a hatch first ling baneling player can still be very tough to handle, not to mention close positions or xel naga caverns.
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SweetAs:
For the record, i was not trying to suggest that a macro hatch was a good idea, only that it was the only way to keep up with a -2 base- zerg in larva.
I think I took that quote out of context and missed the 9 pool part. Even so, unless it's 9 pool baneling, in my experience a 9 pool will only kill a few drones, then the pressure stops and it's back to a normal game. If all you're doing is making drones, the truth is your opponent can expand.
And lay off the ad hominem stuff. I'm kind of playing devil's advocate because I don't believe there is a foolproof way to beat 14/14 ling baneling on open natural maps, and I would like to find one.
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@OP: There is a way to build your base on most maps such that you can have enough roaches fast enough to not lose to a speedling/baneling massive attack. It became really popular after Day[9] made a daily about the build specifically. The build is completely standard, 14 gas 14 pool, 16 overlord. Imidiately when the pool pops you queue a queen, toss down the roach warren. The only difference is you use your spawning pool in conjunction with the vespene geysers to form a wall on one side of your mineral line. Then you use your roach warren to form a partial wall with 1 space between on the other side of the mineral line. The timing is such that if the other guy makes 3 sets of lings on 16 supply, your first 2 roaches will be out when they arrive. Them + the queen can fend off 6 lings. When the ling reinforcements come, your "wall" should be close to complete. You can always opt to make more roaches or more drones or more tech, the build is very flexible that way, and can even get a very fast lair while staying very safe, as its very cost inefficient for the opponent if he wants to bust through your wall like this.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/173737-1v1-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
Here's a replay vs an AI opponent where I just show the general building placements, as well as use a few lings to show where the "holes" in this wall are - with respect to speedlings. The gap between the spawning pool and hatch is always a ling danger. Then there are the holes between gas and mineral line, and a few hles in the mineral line itself. It takes a little while to become completely familiar with spotting these holes but once you can, you can make your base virtually untouchable until you are ready to simply throw him out of your base, block your ramp and do whatever the hell you want. Theres even enough gas to mess around with a bunch of overseers to deny him any kind of additional larvae while stocking up for an attack.
A few things to note; if an attack does occur you do not actually want your queen as an active part of the wall. You should keep her safe, in the mineral line.
Use 2 suicidal slowlings once your roach warren is building. Get a full scout of your opponents base. (Of course also drone scout earlier - I did not do this here, 'cos it was an AI  ). That can often tell you just how many roaches you really need, if he is going for something fishy.
Things to watch out for if you tech lair:
- Spotting roach warren and evo chamber. This means +1 attack roach timing push, and the gas you have just tossed into lair (and roach speed or whatever tech you get there) means he can potentially have similar roach numbers as you, but they will each be more powerful. A few spine crawlers will hold easily.
- One base, no tech, but evo chamber and baneling nest. He will try to brute force his way in with +1 attack speedlings. Make sure you have the double roach wall - or even triple.
- He imidiately expands, keeps sending ling pokes or overlord pokes to spot your roach count, and makes either roaches or mass speedling. I advice expanding as well while putting pressure with your roaches. You can have roach speed sooner than him which means its safe to push out, just mind speedling runbys.
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On May 07 2011 18:39 saus wrote:
"3) dont deal much damage with lings, they macro up and expand. your goal is now to do a quick 1base allin, i like roach +1/speed timing (it looks like a 1base muta build if you hide the roaches). If this is how it turns out, you need to be very attentive at denying overlord scouts."
So if your opponent is scouting well and has good game sense, he stops making drones at the appropriate time, is on 2 base, holds off your all in and wins?
"This is because behind your two queens you are allowed freedom to drone massively and then expand with ease."
When do you expand? You're on 1 base so have limited larva (unless you make a macro hatch, but that's 2 queens sitting at your ramp + a hatchery=600 minerals that aren't something more useful) so you're not going to have any units if you're droning a lot. Your opponent presumably already has his expo up so you're behind anyway.
The OP asked for a build which allowed him to avoid ling/bane wars. I gave him one, which will get him wins if properly executed. It's a build I found here on TL.
You can invent all sorts of specific situations in which someone holds off this build, we can theorycraft back and forth all the different ways the two players could 1-up each other. Let's not.
As far as the larva goes, you don't need a lot because you're doing a 1base all-in. You only need a lot of larva if you're going for lings - if you're going for tech units you don't need a lot of larva - in fact you couldn't afford another hatchery's worth of larva with those higher tech units.
Fun fact - 16 drones on minerals and 3 gas makes economy for constant roach production. Add another extractor and you can afford some tech. I have a +1 missle and roach speed timing which I feel is a very strong all-in, and it sets you up with +1 queens and hydras at home if you scout a spire while you're killing your opponent's base. The build is simple, clean, and easy to perform. It's not the only build I use and I understand your apprehension because 1base builds don't work well in ZvP/ZvT. But ZvZ is different.
Even top level players use 1base tech builds in ZvZ. Ask Catz about 1base infestors. There's really nothing wrong with making an army to either kill your expanding opponent, or to defend your expansion (rather than expand early and hope they don't 9pool you).
I'm sure people can hold it off if they have better mechanics and game-sense than you, but if they were that much better than you they were going to win anyways. But at least this way you don't have to play the ling/bane micro war, which is what the OP asked for.
edit: I think it goes without saying (actually, it was said) that this build is only for certain smaller maps. Shakuras and Taldarim, are no doubt, bad maps to try and 9pool on - big open maps favor speedling expands and there's really not much you can do about that.
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Yesterday I let my opponent scout my bling nest going down, then I killed his scout and dropped a roach warren, he tried to aggro me thinking im going to have lots of ling sand blings and well, it didnt go well for him!
However I'm not sure how well it'll work all the time since speedling all in does tend to kill early roaches. What I like to do if i go early roach is to build a concave at the top of my ramp with hold position. Means he cant do runbys and its a pretty tough defense to crack
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EPT
