|
How to make a low SD/Rax wall
I apologize if this has been posted before. I've recently started playing T more some on ladder and wanted to know how to do this, but I searched and found no guide. After spending a little bit of time figuring it out, I thought I would share a neat little trick that will ensure you never miss a low SD/Rax wall.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/y3cJT.jpg)
Poorly crafted in MSPaint, you'll see an example of each iteration of a narrow ramp (backwater gulch, typhon peaks, delta quadrant and metalopolis, but this works on every narrow ramp).
The simple trick is to position your Depot/Rax such that it makes a 5-square seal around the concave green square at the bottom of your ramp.
With this in mind you'll note that each wall, although seemingly goofy, is impassable to scouting worker or any other ground unit.
Here's an example of each wall position on Shakuras:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/TpwX0.jpg)
While some of them look quite permeable, try and see for yourself!
I hope this helps anyone out there who has been frustrated about this in the past.
If you choose to low ramp wall with your first SD/Rax:
I highly recommend doing 10depot 11 rax instead of the standard 10 depot 12rax. If you plan to open standard OC, it is economically the same to cut the 12th SCV for 8 seconds in order to immediately drop the rax at 11 supply (assuming you go for standard OC timing, which would be at 14 vs 15 if you 11rax).
You can refer to this thread for the data: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=179108
But be wary of the possible perils of low ramp walling:
 vs  Michael vs Vasso ![[image loading]](http://www.topreplays.com/img/layout/download.png)
Also:
http://www.aldenolmstead.com/BGHBlock/BGHBlock.jpg
|
Thanks for putting in the effort to this guide! Looks great!
|
so basically something you would discover by turning on building grid in the options menu? I suppose this would be appreciated by newer players. I suppose this just amuses me so because a lot of effort was put into explaining the obvious. Very clear guide, that is for sure, but perhaps a replay of zerglings trying to get by? (sealing in *proof*)
|
On April 19 2011 11:08 Chahta wrote:
so basically something you would discover by turning on building grid in the options menu? I suppose this would be appreciated by newer players. I suppose this just amuses me so because a lot of effort was put into explaining the obvious. Very clear guide, that is for sure, but perhaps a replay of zerglings trying to get by? (sealing in *proof*)
Don't know, a lot of players miss these walls from time to time, possible because of the rarity of it.
It's because of the way the ramp is set up in 1.2 on the build grid that makes it look like you need to seal off the edges that are already sealed.
|
On April 19 2011 11:08 Chahta wrote:
so basically something you would discover by turning on building grid in the options menu? I suppose this would be appreciated by newer players. I suppose this just amuses me so because a lot of effort was put into explaining the obvious. Very clear guide, that is for sure, but perhaps a replay of zerglings trying to get by? (sealing in *proof*)
To me, at least, it looks like these "walls" are easily passable around the edges. I wouldn't have known they blocked the ramp without this guide.
Thanks, OP.
|
|
|
What is the point of putting the wall off at the bottom, a faster wall off to deny any initial scouting?
Very interesting, now I can go for gas heavy builds without my opponent knowing until it's too late 
Seems like this would be viable for Toss as well, as long as they leave a 1 unit space for a zealot.
|
You only need one supply depot to complete it. Possibly, for, say, some kind of all-in.
Otherwise this kind of wall leaves it way too vulnerable.
|
Thanks for the post
|
On April 19 2011 11:54 noobinator wrote:What is the point of putting the wall off at the bottom, a faster wall off to deny any initial scouting? Very interesting, now I can go for gas heavy builds without my opponent knowing until it's too late Seems like this would be viable for Toss as well, as long as they leave a 1 unit space for a zealot.
I see 2 main uses currently: Going for a 1 rax no gas FE-type build against Zerg, and having a fairly decent baneling-bust-proof wall before the 5 minute mark if you go 2 Rax FE.
+ Show Spoiler +
I saw Minigun do this on his stream months ago, using a 1 rax 1 depot wall-off against someone in a custom (he was Terran, I think he was helping someone who was coaching, by playing Terran, but I digress.... I think it is/was common practice to Pylon/Forge wall when Forge FE, and maybe that's why he did it?). I asked in Simple Questions/Simple Answers and found no definite reason why a bottom wall-off *shouldn't* be used, so now I pretty much wall off the bottom and top with Rax when I 2 Rax FE in TvZ
Also, thanks for making this post! I actually thought it wouldn't work in Typhon Peaks, the ramp looks wider than it really is, but now I know :D
|
|
|
|
|
Not everyone is Grand Masters league. There are always things that you can learn. Thanks for the guide.
|
Thx for the guide michael.
|
You can also double rax wall off the bottom of a ramp. Good vs Zerg if you're opening 2 rax pressure.
|
thanks. i fail horribly at this when i off race against my friends.
|
nice, never knew there was such an easy rule to it
|
You can also double rax wall off the bottom of a ramp. Good vs Zerg if you're opening 2 rax pressure.
Yeah - excellent idea. Deny scouting and then show all your cards.
|
I think the main reason you don't see it used that much is because that bottom supply depot is so susceptible to being picked off by ranged units..
Otherwise this would be great for denying scouting, esp. seeings as most scout timings arrive just a little bit before you get your second depot down
|
Great pictures, I'm normally able to get the position right but I relied on memories of previous walls, so this really helps as general guide for all the ramps
|
The problem I found with these walls are that it is visually very deceiving.
|
nice guide but very primitive. I think you should add the pros and cons of walling low and high ground so low level T's don't get the wrong impression.
cheers.
|
I hate going against these kinds of walls on long maps  . I never know what they are up to and by the time I got my banshee defense up they float their safe CC over to the natural with a big smile on their face.
|
On April 19 2011 20:32 Chaosvuistje wrote:I hate going against these kinds of walls on long maps . I never know what they are up to and by the time I got my banshee defense up they float their safe CC over to the natural with a big smile on their face.
Hahaha I laughed when I saw this. Know the exact feeling man 
Low ground walling is so so suspicious though. I do it when I am going for a 3 rax marine scv all in. I don't like that it looks so suspicious, but I guess I'd I'd rather look suspicious and leave them wondering than let their scout into my base.
Anyway, appreciate the effort in creating this thread. If it came out earlier I could have saved 10 minutes of my life that I spent figuring out how to do it haha. It'll help some people I'm sure.
|
On April 19 2011 11:08 Chahta wrote:
so basically something you would discover by turning on building grid in the options menu? I suppose this would be appreciated by newer players. I suppose this just amuses me so because a lot of effort was put into explaining the obvious. Very clear guide, that is for sure, but perhaps a replay of zerglings trying to get by? (sealing in *proof*)
I actually had to test this out after a couple of tries on the unit testing map. The walling IS tricky and can be misleading sometimes. For example, with the north-facing ramps, I really have to remember that one open orange grid held off units coming in from the diagonal :\
|
The nice thing about a lowground wall is not only the scouting deny, but if you're paranoid about banebusting, you can rewall at the top, so they break the bottom and get screwed by bunkers at the top.
|
On April 19 2011 11:54 noobinator wrote:What is the point of putting the wall off at the bottom, a faster wall off to deny any initial scouting? Very interesting, now I can go for gas heavy builds without my opponent knowing until it's too late Seems like this would be viable for Toss as well, as long as they leave a 1 unit space for a zealot.
It is to deny scouting. If you wall at the top of your ramp a unit can run up the ramp and get a peek at the area in the main around the ramp. If the wall is at the bottom they won't be able to do this. It also allows you to make a second wall at the top of your ramp if you fear an early baneling bust. Also there is less space required to make the wall (able to wall with a barracks + depot rather than a barracks +2 depots or 2 barracks sized buildings).
|
|
|
The wall comes up faster, but is weaker. Good vs scouts and good for FE builds, bad for turtling.
|
Hah, I've tried so many times half assed and rarely get it right. Although, this kind of wall usually spells I'm doing an all in or something sneaky.
Very nice post, I still struggle with it. lol How I made it so far into the game not knowing that, or the cost of a factory till 3 or so months ago lol.
It's very good against zerg, and if you can trick a protoss into thinking your teching, a proxy rax and that rax together with pulled scvs can usually hit 4/5 marines and 5+ scvs before the sentry pops in a typical zeal/stalker/sentry BO for the protoss. Although, a stalker poke and you're fucked without marauders.
In short -- thanks, now I won't struggle in teams to do a quick wall
|
On April 20 2011 05:19 iAmJeffReY wrote:
In short -- thanks, now I won't struggle in teams to do a quick wall
Hmm, I never thought of using this wall for team games. It would be quite good from fending the very early cheeses that can be common.
However, I would worry about the amount of surface area exposed with potentially 2 rushes coming at it. I'm probably going to try it out and see what happens anyway though.
|
I always use this wall, it keeps the scouting worker out but it can be really vulnerable to worker harass. Anyway since I usually favor non-standard openings (no gas expands or early gas agression) I always want to do this to avoid giving my opponent that huge piece of information.
Roach rushes can give this kind of wall off alot of issues because its easier for them to bait your marines into a vulnerable position. As well, if you are planning on teching behind a bunker you will have to sacrifice that depot because there is no safe place to put the bunker, but you can always float the barracks back.
I would definitely not do this in a team game. Your wall would get owned for sure if you came under early attack by anything except for a weak ling attack.
|
Had to figure this shit out myself after not finding it on TL a few months ago, could NOT figure out after like 3 tests, finally got it, it's not very intuitive, it appears as if units could still fit in as you're not hugging the ramp.
|
On April 20 2011 06:36 FireBearHero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 05:19 iAmJeffReY wrote:
In short -- thanks, now I won't struggle in teams to do a quick wall Hmm, I never thought of using this wall for team games. It would be quite good from fending the very early cheeses that can be common. However, I would worry about the amount of surface area exposed with potentially 2 rushes coming at it. I'm probably going to try it out and see what happens anyway though.
Or blocking off a zerg ally who's about to get heavy rushed. That's my thinking. Share control for them to use the Sdepot and no more sling run bys on your roach going Z ally.
Sure helps vs TZ when they sling hellion. I've only done it twice, but both times in my mind is saved us the game because it let my ally roach up. I can just stay with him and snipe slings off him and let him FF down hellions
|
Cool! I wonder if its possible to wall with a evo chamber and a spine crawler...
|
infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On April 20 2011 07:13 monitor wrote:
Cool! I wonder if its possible to wall with a evo chamber and a spine crawler...
Iirc, since evo chamber is 3x3 and spine crawler is 2x2 I don't see why it wouldn't work.
|
I wouldn't use it against anything else but Zerg. Also, you could do 6 rax cheese versus Terran with this wall off, but it's not a solid build, and walling like this would only make him suspicious. Against protoss its just a suicide.
|
Uhh, i'm confused, is blocking it under the ramp more advantageous than blocking it above the ramp? Coming from BW I just build 2 SDs and a rax and block above the ramp on most maps, except that one with two spawning positions with the gigantic ramp, where I just do 3sd 1 rax.
|
On April 20 2011 05:19 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Or blocking off a zerg ally who's about to get heavy rushed. That's my thinking. Share control for them to use the Sdepot and no more sling run bys on your roach going Z ally.
Sure helps vs TZ when they sling hellion. I've only done it twice, but both times in my mind is saved us the game because it let my ally roach up. I can just stay with him and snipe slings off him and let him FF down hellions
So you wall off both you and your ally? Mmm, that's an interesting thought indeed. With the bottom of the ramp style wall you could have a wall for each player not long after a standard top of the ramp wall for just yourself.
Thanks for the idea, I like it.
On April 20 2011 08:06 TickTockBoom wrote:
Uhh, i'm confused, is blocking it under the ramp more advantageous than blocking it above the ramp? Coming from BW I just build 2 SDs and a rax and block above the ramp on most maps, except that one with two spawning positions with the gigantic ramp, where I just do 3sd 1 rax.
It is situational, the wall at the bottom has advantages and disadvantages. The main advantages is denying scouting information (because they can't poke up the ramp with a unit and see the surrounding area in your main) and less buildings required. It is mostly used if you're really trying to hide tech or at least acting like you are.
However, the wall is more vulnerable, because it exposes more surface area to attack, while giving up surface area to repair. It also tends to give ranged units more available angles to attack your wall. Ranged units will also be able to see your wall without spotting up your ramp. This will allow them to attack from full range, while not being hit back by something behind the wall. I would not suggest this against protoss or terran as you surrender a good deal of defender's advantage (while giving them the possibility of forcing engagement.
Edit: wow that post got really screwed up lol
|
On April 19 2011 20:29 wordd wrote:
nice guide but very primitive. I think you should add the pros and cons of walling low and high ground so low level T's don't get the wrong impression.
cheers.
The reason for the skimpiness is two-fold: For one, I wanted to keep the OP simple and informative, without clouding it with the subjectivity of my own view.
Secondly, and more principally, I simply lack the expertise with Terran to go into the situational advantages and disadvantages of this type of wall.
If a higher level Terran player (I usually play zerg) wants to go into detail about it, I'd be more than happy to include it in the OP.
At least for me, the reason I love low walls is because I am a very aggressive player, and so my goal with the wall is simply to deny scouting, not defend against anything.
Certainly there are different merits for and against it.
|
Oops hit quote instead of edit.
|
On April 20 2011 07:46 infinity21 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 07:13 monitor wrote:
Cool! I wonder if its possible to wall with a evo chamber and a spine crawler... Iirc, since evo chamber is 3x3 and spine crawler is 2x2 I don't see why it wouldn't work.
Crawlers don't block the full 2x2, so all early game units except roaches and stalkers will be able to pass. Any other building will make a full wall, the crawlers are the only exceptions.
|
edited OP to add a funny replay of me losing 2 SCVs to worker harass while low ramp walling with 10depot 11rax
Also, if you feel you can add some high level commentary on the advantages/disadvantages of walling, I'd be happy to include it in the OP. Terran is not my main race 1v1.
|
Great post OP. The comment about the concave makes it very easy to remember. Thanks!
|
Dominican Republic32 Posts
Was not aware of this. Thanks OP for this (especially since Terran is not your main race).
|
great post, this emphasizes how much I need to practice stutter-step. I have a question.
I know this is slower, but here's what I typically do:
(this is above the ramp)
10 depot
11 rax
11 depot <- I am feverishly hitting the depot hotkey with the scv positioned nearby as minerals aren't flowed in immediately after the 11 rax
I did not know that walling below the ramp was feasible, ergo the above strange wall. Then I would start rax further way from the wall.
The idea behind the above is to deny scouting completely as I really don't want them to see what I'm doing. I don't know if - when they see the above - would they react the same way as seeing a depot + rax on the low ground.
I'm guessing their mental response would be, I'm trying to hide tech, or why wall off like that?
|
On May 19 2011 03:09 D_K_night wrote:
great post, this emphasizes how much I need to practice stutter-step. I have a question.
I know this is slower, but here's what I typically do:
(this is above the ramp)
10 depot
11 rax
11 depot <- I am feverishly hitting the depot hotkey with the scv positioned nearby as minerals aren't flowed in immediately after the 11 rax
I did not know that walling below the ramp was feasible, ergo the above strange wall. Then I would start rax further way from the wall.
The idea behind the above is to deny scouting completely as I really don't want them to see what I'm doing. I don't know if - when they see the above - would they react the same way as seeing a depot + rax on the low ground.
I'm guessing their mental response would be, I'm trying to hide tech, or why wall off like that?
Putting a second depot down at 11 will hurt your economy significantly. Even though cutting 1-2 workers doesn't seem like a big deal, that early in the game it will put you behind. Especially because it serves no purpose whatsoever other than to deny a really early scout.
My 2 cents would be to not do that.
|
On May 19 2011 03:09 D_K_night wrote:
great post, this emphasizes how much I need to practice stutter-step. I have a question.
I know this is slower, but here's what I typically do:
(this is above the ramp)
10 depot
11 rax
11 depot <- I am feverishly hitting the depot hotkey with the scv positioned nearby as minerals aren't flowed in immediately after the 11 rax
I did not know that walling below the ramp was feasible, ergo the above strange wall. Then I would start rax further way from the wall.
The idea behind the above is to deny scouting completely as I really don't want them to see what I'm doing. I don't know if - when they see the above - would they react the same way as seeing a depot + rax on the low ground.
I'm guessing their mental response would be, I'm trying to hide tech, or why wall off like that?
It would be, but now that the example vid posted in this thread has become the ladder cheese flavor of the week, everyone is going to assume it's a 3-rax all-in.
I personally think a 2-port would be very strong, and on at least XNC, there is a cheese proof (at least everything I could think to throw at it and I love to cheese) TvZ 1-rax FE that looks exactly like this in its opening. Griffith came up with it but I don't know if he ever posted it.
|
cheer big help for the non master nubs like me ^^
|
United States2567 Posts
The poster of this infortmation is incredibly handsome. Thank you !
|
Does it still works? (I mean I think one patch nerfed it)
|
On August 15 2011 14:21 Zilong67 wrote:
Does it still works? (I mean I think one patch nerfed it)
That was for 2x2 wall, this is 2 and 3
|
Thanks, I didn't know how to do this, after watching Halby's 3 rax all in video on youtube, I tried the 3rax on ladder but got scouted b/c i didn't wall off properly. Hopefully by bumping this thread, someone else who had the same problem see's the thread.
|
On June 07 2012 11:00 IamNatural wrote:
Thanks, I didn't know how to do this, after watching Halby's 3 rax all in video on youtube, I tried the 3rax on ladder but got scouted b/c i didn't wall off properly. Hopefully by bumping this thread, someone else who had the same problem see's the thread.
Was it really necessary to bump just for that?
|
I want to use that wall only if going crazy scv-marine allin or 1rax FE as any 1base allin involving ranged units or banelings is a free loss for u
|
On June 07 2012 23:01 eusoc wrote:
I want to use that wall only if going crazy scv-marine allin or 1rax FE as any 1base allin involving ranged units or banelings is a free loss for u
You can bunker the low ground since most maps have really small, or at least kinda small natural chokes now.
Against a Baneling Bust, you can build buildings on top as well as on the bottom, forcing the Zerg to bust through two rows of buildings.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/p6fb2.jpg)
