EPTThanks
[Q] The practice only one build approach - Page 2
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YakiSOBA
30 Posts
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morimacil
France921 Posts
Pick one that you want to do cose you like it, and do that, and you will be fine. There is no need to try and play a particular build because it is "standard". For example in TvT, TvP, and TvZ, if you wanted to open up with something like cloaked banshees, do it! 3rax? you can make it work. blueflamed hellion drops? will get you to master. 1rax expand? if thats your style, go for it. People need to understand that for the most part, starcraft really isnt a strategy game at all. For the most part, your strategy just doesnt matter one bit. SC is mostly a game of mechanics, and whoever has the best execution wins, no matter the strategy. Once execution becomes nearly perfect, then, strategies start to matter, but since for 99% of people, their execution isnt perfect, or close to perfect, the strategy they choose simply doesnt matter at all. pick something you like, not something "standard" that way, you can do something you enjoy, which makes it easier when you want to play 500 games with the same build. And the "standard" will change next month anyway. | ||
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
On April 14 2011 02:45 YakiSOBA wrote: Could someone list the standard builds for TvT, TvP, and TvZ if I wanted to try and practice just one build for each race? Thanks I'd also love to see the community feedback on the "ideal" and "no hard counter" builds for ZvX. The builds listed for P are great; but the inbreds and insects need some love too | ||
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Dagon
Romania264 Posts
On April 14 2011 02:00 morimacil wrote: Step 1: pick a build. It should either be: very agressive, so that you can make it work almost no matter what the opponent does very safe, so that you can make it work no matter what the opponent does very reactive, so that you can make it work no matter what the opponent does Step 2: do the build. When you lose, do the build again, but do it better. Step 3: Ignore random "build counterunit X!" advice If for example you play a ZvT game, open with speedlings, and lose to hellions, 90% of the advice you will get will probably be something like "build roaches!". Ignore this kind of advice. Instead, see step 2, and do the build better. for example, better scouting, better macro, better micro, less missed injects, less missed tumors. experiment with the same thing you did, but a slight variation. 4 more lings. an earlier tumor. different building or queen placement to block the ramp, and so on. Do your build, stick to your build, dont take counterunit advice. Step 4: Forget about "Hard" counters. There is no such thing. Do your build better, and you will be fine. Going mass roaches, having trouble against mutas? instead of randomly deciding to add in hydras or something like that, do your build better. scout better, and push earlier, crush him right before/as his mutas pop. things like that. Going mass marines against mass tank-hellion? you arent hardcountered, or anything like that, just be more agressive, expand more, drop all over the place, micro better to avoid splash, whatever. the most important is just to ignore the "build counterunit X!!!!" advice. Unless your build is absolutely shit, you will be fine. And even if the build you decide to do and stick to is 100% terrible, doing it well enough will get you into mid masters easily, probably a lot higher. Once you are in grandmaster league, you can feel free to ignore my advice, and consider that perhaps a different build would be more appropriate. Until then, stick to your build. This.. Also, just as day9 says, if you encounter some kind of odd thing, after you watch the rep, don't think "what build can i do agains this NeXT time", but instead, "how can i arrange the order of my build to fit better in this situation, but still achieve my mid-game plan".. Remember that any build îs designed with the mid game in mind first, not the other way around.. A BO îs just the optimum way of achieving that mid-game plan without dying.. And also, NEVER stop to think of that build îs good until you played 1000 games with it.. Just ask yourself what can be adjusted if you find yourself in a tight spot.. Cheers.. | ||
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CrayonKing
Cambodia124 Posts
I started off with no RTS experience and when I started in bronze as Terran I used MM only every matchup which got me to platnium (beta). This later transitioned into something similar here, a specific BO for each matchup especially for T/Z - mostly all ins T you had to play a little more standard since what you go highly depends on opponent whereas T/Z if you do early push it usually doesnt matter what they go. Now i am 3800 Terran (last season) still using the same all-ins ish against P/Z and find it very hard to stray away since if I do i lack other fundamentals that ive skipped along the way LOL What would you do in my case? ps when i mean all ins im not talking about 3rax all in or marine all in, they are more of a 1 or 2 base timing push where I usually still do have an economy that will back me up if the push fails (if i 1base its an all in, 2 base more of a timing push) | ||
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TheAwesomeAll
Netherlands1609 Posts
On April 14 2011 02:45 YakiSOBA wrote: Could someone list the standard builds for TvT, TvP, and TvZ if I wanted to try and practice just one build for each race? Thanks tvz: 2 rax pressure into expand and tank/marine/medivac jinro style tvp: 2 rax expand with a reactored starport and mass mmm to follow up. tvt: i dont really know, but the iEchoic or marine tank is good | ||
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KillerPlague
United States1386 Posts
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FrostDuty
United Kingdom45 Posts
Having just switched from Z i dont really know which builds are safe. If people could give their reasoning as well that would be awesome Especially need help vs Z. Im finding TvZ to be really difficult. | ||
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CrayonKing
Cambodia124 Posts
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On April 14 2011 01:21 Griffith` wrote: Out of curiosity, why is PvT 2 gate robo? With the stim pack nerf (+30 seconds), a lot of protoss have started doing 1 gate FE. 1 Gate FE definitely gets hard countered by really aggressive 2 rax play on most maps. I doubt that anyone can go 1 Gate FE on a map that is smaller than cross spawns metalopolis and hold against a strong 2 rax. OTOH, I don't agree with anihc that there aren't hardcounters to each of the builds he mentioned. Of course there are not hardcounters to 3 gate FE in PvZ, but there are hardcounters to particular variations of 3 gate FE. If you always feign pressure at the same number of units, or you always do some really aggressive attack, or you always follow with 1 VR+2 phoenix and get an immediate robotics, etc. etc. There are ways to punish these if you do them every game. Similarly, there are hardcounters to 2 gate robo PvT if you always do it the same way. There are ways for terran to out-expand you if you always open the same passive way, as we saw Tyler do in the TSL3. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
There are no hardcounters for you, me, the OP, the guy who was talking about hardcounters, and 99.99999% of the SC player base. Saying that a sloppy 2rax is a hardcounter to a bad 1gate fe, is just silly. its also not like you can just build 2 rax, and win easily against a perfectly executed 1gate fe with perfect building placement, unit placement, micro, macro, and so on. Blah, blah blah, yes, yes, at the very top level of play, such things might exist, and when you play a best of 5 in a tournament, being too predictable might be a disadvantage. But unless you are already consistently doing well in tournaments, and executing your builds perfectly, such things simply dont factor in for you, they simply dont actually exist at lower levels of play. Perhaps a perfectly executed 2rax does "hardcounter" a perfectly executed 1gate fe. Who cares? In the interest of actually learning and improving, all you need to know is that a perfect 1gate FE wins against pretty much any less than perfect build. Once you get to that point, where you execute it 100% perfectly, and then you start meeting other people who can also do their builds 100% perfectly too, at that point, you might want to start to worry about if "hardcounters" exist, and which build gives you the best chance to win overall. TLDR: Random perfectly executed build > random "hardcounter" less than perfect build And the fact that 2 perfectly executed builds might possibly "hardcounter" each other is completely irrelevant to the discussion, since we are talking about practicing a build, and not what happens when builds are perfectly done. | ||
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phone33
7 Posts
I have plenty to read and digests it seems. I will definitely strongly consider adding a build for each match up. That seems like it would take care of almost all my problems. Except for the me being a total newb sauce one. Obviously they will be one of the "Standard" as I dont think there is as much to gain from mastering some sort of cheese crazy build. As for that I'll keep gnawing on these posts. Thanks again! | ||
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Xirroh
Canada146 Posts
After that you transition based upon what the opponent is doing, how successful your opening was, the map, etc. However these transitions are also part of your build. This is because your opening build will dictate what options are available to you to transition into effectively. If you open 2 gate robo as suggested, you can skew your composition into many forms with these buildings. (Zelot/Immortal, Stalker/ Colossus, etc.) However in terms of anti-air you are limited to stalkers and sentry's. So if you scouted a heavy air build by the opponent, your transition would involve stalker/sentry. Trying to transition cold into stargate -> phoenix from a robo opening would be very slow and costly (bad). However if you opened with stargate/voidray instead of robo, your anti-air transition could involve phoenix. This is a simplified example, but shows how a build also influences transitions. How easy or difficult a builds transitions are, as well as how many options a build can deal with, are ways of evaluating it's strength. This is the danger with a 6 pool build or other 1 base all ins. It can't transition effectively into anything. | ||
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KDot2
United States1213 Posts
edit: NVM plenty of info in thread ... sorry | ||
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reikai
United States359 Posts
On April 14 2011 02:45 morimacil wrote: Thats kind of true, but also very misleading. The real point of doing 1 build a lot, is to get good at it. If you know 1 build inside out super well, with incredibly crisp timings, knowing exactly what to do in every situation and so on, well you can be a pro. Idra spent most of his time until recently doing pretty much 1 build per matchup. He was predictable, but even when ppl knew what he was going to do, he made it work. On the other hand, if you know how to do 50 different builds/strategies/openers/whatever, but you arent really particularly good at any of them, well that means that you arent really good. This is correct.. at first the only reason you focus on doing one build is to learn how to masterfully operate the user interface, and to learn to be able to do exactly what you want at certain times. This includes placing the correct buildings perfectly on time, and in the correct order. If you aren't at this level yet, go into a 1-player game (a game with JUST you, no computer even) and just run through the build order until it's perfect. After your build is perfect, run it even MORE until you are aware of what it fares well against, or fares poorly against. (remember this is only one matchup still, and you've probably run this build 50 times now. This just means that it will take some time, and if you feel like you're getting nowhere, then just remember that your feeling is only natural :D) I think this is what Day[9] means by running one build in each matchup. Also, when you lose, you need to see how you died, or why. Did the opponent do something you didn't expect? Did you simply get supply blocked? Did you just forget to produce units or maybe a critical upgrade? Was there a micro error and you lost all your units? Maybe you didn't scout something critical. Sticking with the build is key, otherwise you'll never know why one thing tends to beat another. Good luck :D | ||
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DragonDefonce
United States790 Posts
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Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
On April 14 2011 03:23 CrayonKing wrote: How do you transition out of using the same build after you are very good? or very good at executing ur build. [snip] I am 3800 Terran (last season) still using the same all-ins ish against P/Z and find it very hard to stray away since if I do i lack other fundamentals that ive skipped along the way LOL What would you do in my case? The simplest thing to suggest is to simply stop doing the all-ins. Change your game plan to instead aim for an endgame macro game (obviously still taking advantage of any opportunities you spot though), really practice and concentrate on those "missing" fundamentals, and take the rating hit. Your goal when playing should not be to win games, but to learn and get better, and sometimes learning requires losing a bunch of games. Your rating will go down (in the short term), but your skill as a player will go up. This is comparable to, for example, a Protoss who 4-gated his way to Diamond. He knows he is awful if he does anything else, and he is desperate to keep his Diamond status, so he just keeps doing it without ever really improving as a player. Don't be like him! Go lose a bunch of games and be awesome! **note that this advice is in no way biased. I am a Zerg who loves getting all-inned by Terrans. I love it very much. | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
ZvT: hatch first into ling/baneling/muta or ling/baneling/roach ZvP: 14 gas 14 pool, 20 hatch into speedlings into roaches with burrow ZvZ: 14 gas 14 pool into either expand (and pull drones off gas) or banelings. You can speedling expand against a hatch first, or a roach expand, but if he goes speedling/baneling you have to aswell, or you'll die. Also if he's going for a roach timing attack, you need to get roaches yourself. | ||
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SanDevon
Belgium15 Posts
TvZ I always go 2rax expand into 2ebay, 2 additional rax. The main idea is to have 3/3 bio as soon as possible, with heavy emphasis on marines if Z goes muta, and marauders if he stays on banelings. I found this style on Adebisi's channel, and I love it...and because I've been doing it time and time again I know what to expect at what time. It becomes second nature: "I'm at 2base, 4rax, 1/1...okay, turrets, I can expect mutas". TvP: 2rax with techlabs expand. It's harder because of the protoss early pressure possibilities, but again, because I do the same thing over and over again I know what to expect. The only variation here is when I'm in close positions on Metal, Slag or Shattered, because then a 3 rax stim push is just so good against toss... TvT: as I said, this is a struggle. As should be obvious from the previous two, I prefer bio over mech, and running a bioball into a tankline is something that gets frustrating. In a Hashe replay pack I found a 1-1-1 opening where you make a first poke with marines, 3 hellions and a medivac, but I still have to learn to expand/macro behind that. I'm still thinking about possible followups...tank push into BC or heavy banshee play into BC (latter possible makes more sense...) In any case, the whole point of the above is: even in Silver, the advantage of doing the same build over and over again is to create automatisms. You'll be more at ease during play. You won't have to think conciously about your BO or game plan, freeing more of your concentration for things like scouting and macro during battles. You won't get surprised as easily. Is you scout your opponent, you'll have less trouble reacting. I think it's absolutely great that pros know dozens of build orders, and taylor their game specifically to their opponents, but that's why they're pro and I'm not. I'll worry about stuff like that if I ever get into Grandmasters League :D | ||
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ComTrav
United States1093 Posts
On April 14 2011 02:45 YakiSOBA wrote: Could someone list the standard builds for TvT, TvP, and TvZ if I wanted to try and practice just one build for each race? Thanks TvT-Some kind of 1/1/1 opening into Marine/Tank is the most standard way to play. On large maps you can ninja in a fast expand. TvT has lots of openers but a pretty stable midgame. Day[9] really stresses having an idea of what production structures you want in the midgame, as it will shape your army, and I think it works really well for Terran, and in TvT something like 3 Barracks (1 Techlab/2 Reactor), 2 techlab factories (tanks!), and a reactor starport is pretty reasonable. TvP-I think 2 Rax expand is probably the most vanilla you could get. Early shells, early reactor, a little bit of pressure potential. Bio/Viking is still the most common midgame (Terrans are messing around with lots of other unit compositions in this match atm, but I think Bio/Viking is still the most 'standard'.) Reasonable 2-base production structures are 5 barracks (mostly techlabs...build marauaders, dood!) and a reactor starport. (A lot of people just scout with the factory.) TvZ-2 Rax expand, probably, but not the same as the TvP 2 rax expand. You skip your gas, but down a second barracks on 14ish, and pressure with your first couple marines, and then build a command center and double gas. Marine/Tank is a typical midgame, with 3/4 Barracks (mostly marines!), 1 factory for tanks, and a starport. In all of these, it's pretty much a good idea to get an engineering bay at around 7/8 minutes if you haven't figured out what your opponent is doing, as this is a typical timing for any kind of cloak. | ||
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