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Pride BC Rush
( Build order can only go so far, watch the replay )
Terran vs Zerg
+ Show Spoiler +Intro:+ Show Spoiler +
Since the dmg. nerf, BCs are insubstantial units, for what they cost.... they are incompetent combatants. With the uprise of the recent patch.... The speed boost for BC
BCs serves a new purpose in life.. Terran vs Zerg anyway...
BCs/Banshee Objective:
1. Kill Drones..
2. Kill Queens....
3. Kill Hatches.....
10 supply
12 barrack
13 refin.
15 orbital
Factory @ 100 gas
Take 2nd ref when you have enough minerals ( note that your scv and marine production should not stop because of this, also.. don't get supplied block.. )
100% Factory start buidling your starport as well as hellions
Build 1 medivac at 100% starport
( if everything was done correctly, by the time your medivac pops out, you should have the following
-3hellions and 6-8 marines)
Push out with the 3 hellions, 6-8 marines, the one medivac and 2 scvs on autorepair using the elevator drop strat.
The idea of this build is to do enough harass, stall enough time to get your bcs up and running.
-build core as soon as you push out, put up another starport.
-tech lab on both starport
PUMP out the first bc when you have enough resources
-Push out with the first bc with banshee support
2 Base Roach Rush: With the amount of marines and hellions, you should be able to stop him in his tracks at your ramp. At this point, forget the elevator drop, load 3 hellions, 2 scvs on autorepair and harass as much as you with your hellions.
1 Base Roach Rush: 1 bunker stops it all...
1 Base Banel Bust: If you were able to scout the banel's nest.... Block your ramp with production building..If you were unable to scout the banel nest, with proper hellions micro, you should be able to stop it, immediately after the bust, try to wall off the ramp ASAP.
2 Base Banel Bust: Your initial push should indeed come first before his banel bust. From here.. block ramp with barracks/or production building.
Roach encounter: Do as much dmg as you can, load your remaining units in medivac.. fly away....and continue with bc rush.
Speedling encounter: Kite as much as you can, do not get surrounded.. load your remaining units in medivac. fly away.. and continue with bc rush.
Zergling encounter: Kite as much as you can,, do not get surrounded.. This is where you should be able to do the most dmg..Without speed.. zergling can not kill hellions with proper micro. Load your remaining units in medivac.. Harass back and forth between the 2 bases. ... and of course.. continue with your bc rush.. let me know what you guys think
Terran vs Protoss
+ Show Spoiler +
Terran vs Terran
+ Show Spoiler + As far as I'm aware this is unviable.. Until then !
-Pride
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what if he made marines?
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i should have stated.. that this is tvz strat lol
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Ninja'd. Easily scoutable. Once its scouted- you die.
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Then you'd be better than good. BCs rock against marines, with 3 armor and high dps.
This sounds awesome, I will try it out and see how good it actually is.
Edit: question answered.
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You should probably put this up on liquipedia, if it isn't there already.
BC rushes arn't all that uncommon. TLO used them alot in the early history of the game, but it isn't all that crazy good. If the zerg manages to scout the starports, you're basically f*cked, as he'll be expecting double banshee, and the response is the same. Mass queens.
Personally I think BCs could be decent on 3+ bases, but with just one, you really can't get enough of a ground army to survive the 'Mondragon's response to everything' 
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Pretty bad OP,
So we have to figure out how this build works, what it is good/weak against, what are the transitions etc... Based on an incomplete BO and one replay ?
You might as well have written "Yo sup? BCs are good in TvZ ya'll" (and in fact you didn't even write TvZ in the OP)
Can you at least tell us at what level you are playing and how much success you are having with it ?
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The banshee will only make him prepare better for air attacks.
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Build order:
10 supply
13 refin.
15 orbital
you have to build a rax before orbital... 
add 12 rax?
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12 rax happy?
I'm master Terran top 200
and ROOTSlush has always been up there for ages now lol... i would post more replays i just haven't uploaded them yet and i'm on my laptop .. so bare with me till tmororw.
my success rate is above 70%
higher when my harass do more dmg of course.
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wwhere is liquipedia? lol
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I don't like an early marine / hellion push without upgrade. 2 hellions is not enough to be effective; either get more hellions before you push or get blue flame somehow. On top of that 8 marines without shield or stim are pretty bad too. I can't imagine any zerg taking damage to this push, considering a round of speedlings is more than enough to completely crush it. As for the battlecruiser, its going to be scouted. Speaking as zerg if I see a terran stay on 1 base for so long I know something ridiculous is up, and with a huge econ advantage (you get to freely drone 2 bases, cause your 2 hellion 8 marine push isn't gonna pressure very well) I'm content with sacrificing like 4 overlords or overseers until I see exactly what you're doing. At that point its ridiculously easy to counter 1 base bc just by stalling with hydras --> corruptors.
Overal a fun build you can do on a bad player but by no means competitive.
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On April 04 2011 21:13 huytruong742 wrote:
12 rax happy?
I'm master Terran top 200
and ROOTSlush has always been up there for ages now lol... i would post more replays i just haven't uploaded them yet and i'm on my laptop .. so bare with me till tmororw.
my success rate is above 70%
higher when my harass do more dmg of course.
It doesn't tell all that much, as you're probably the only player doing 1 base BC rush, and the build might rather have some success based on being unique rather than actually being good.
You need to add follow ups/transitions, strenghts, weaknesses, thoughts behind it, a more organized build order etc.
If you can't make a full OP today, I'd wait until I can, instead of making half a OP and get two pages of confusion. So far all this is is "BCs are good. Here's a replay".
I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but you need more content for people to actually figure out what this actually is.
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On April 04 2011 21:21 loveeholicce wrote:
I don't like an early marine / hellion push without upgrade. 2 hellions is not enough to be effective; either get more hellions before you push or get blue flame somehow. On top of that 8 marines without shield or stim are pretty bad too. I can't imagine any zerg taking damage to this push, considering a round of speedlings is more than enough to completely crush it. As for the battlecruiser, its going to be scouted. Speaking as zerg if I see a terran stay on 1 base for so long I know something ridiculous is up, and with a huge econ advantage (you get to freely drone 2 bases, cause your 2 hellion 8 marine push isn't gonna pressure very well) I'm content with sacrificing like 4 overlords or overseers until I see exactly what you're doing. At that point its ridiculously easy to counter 1 base bc just by stalling with hydras --> corruptors.
Overal a fun build you can do on a bad player but by no means competitive.
lol, did you watch the replay? ... you really have no idea how strong 3 hellions 7 marines with medivacs are lol
I do it on the ladder all the time.. i'm master lvl.. and high up there, what are you?
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On April 04 2011 21:24 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 21:13 huytruong742 wrote:
12 rax happy?
I'm master Terran top 200
and ROOTSlush has always been up there for ages now lol... i would post more replays i just haven't uploaded them yet and i'm on my laptop .. so bare with me till tmororw.
my success rate is above 70%
higher when my harass do more dmg of course.
It doesn't tell all that much, as you're probably the only player doing 1 base BC rush, and the build might rather have some success based on being unique rather than actually being good. You need to add follow ups/transitions, strenghts, weaknesses, thoughts behind it, a more organized build order etc. If you can't make a full OP today, I'd wait until I can, instead of making half a OP and get two pages of confusion. So far all this is is "BCs are good. Here's a replay". I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but you need more content for people to actually figure out what this actually is.
i give slight knowledge, you give me... sigh . night night
-pride
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I have a BC rush strat I'm using in 4v4s, this seems like as good a thread as any to post
10 supply
12 rax
14 refine <- the refines drop at 14 instead of 13 as you need the scvs on min a few seconds more
14 refine
15 orbital
Fact
Port
2nd Port
Core
tech lab
tech lab
BC
BC
Should be able to get two BCs out around 9 min mark.
you should have enough money to constantly pump marines and build one bunker. while doing this.
This is extremely map dependent.
works well on:
megaton - you move in on the side with a single expo for your opponent. There is a big open area next to the rear main. you can harass there, and once he moves troops in, move to the front main. you can also pull back to the single natural, and drop mules to repair. This is going to sound ridiculous, but I've also proxied both my starports along the edge of the map kind of between the two golds, but on their side of the little valley that sticks out.
Outpost is also a great map for this. This map has a ton of room behind the mains, so you can get two BCs in there and just poke in and out.
Toxic slums is also good, same reasons.
As far as execution goes, treat your BCs like banshees, you are not trying to kill him, just stop his min line, do some damage, do your best to keep BCs alive. saving mules and scans is invaluable for this. poke in, do some damage, pull back to an open area, drop a mule to repair your BCs, move in again. Toxic slums and outpost are great for this tactic, megaton is a little trickier.
As your moving out, only build 2 BCs and do a tech switch. Z/T will definitely go corrupter/vike once they see BCs. Toss have a couple more options: stalk/carrier/VR.
You can go one of two routes:
You have two starports, so you can drop reactors and pump vikes to counter they air they are building to counter your BCs
or
You can move your ports off the tech labs, move your fact onto one and build a second fact on the other and go thors.
I definitely do not recommend going banshees as whatever they build to counter BCs will definitely counter banshees. Also do not recommend bio, as you've teched up so fast it would be a waste.
I haven't tried it yet, but I think it might work vs Z in 1v1 on scrap. If you hide the core, he'll expect 2 port banshee, and if he goes light on the defense, 2 BCs will tear up 1-2 spores or a couple hydras/couple mutas
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I did watch the replay. Things that I'd point out:
- It was on DQ, arguably the worst zerg map in the pool.
- You don't move out with that initial pressure, and the core gets scouted. Despite this, you still run over the opponent.
The zerg underreacts to the BC threat once. I can almost guarantee that if you tried this again versus him he'd realize that mass queens don't cut it against BC unless you have mass transfuse and throw up...one spore crawler? Or get corruptors instead of mutas when his spire popped.
These are comments that need to be addressed. If this build is beatable, by what and what should you transition into if/when that happens. There was no expansion here, but you were on 40+ scvs at the end there.
If you want to just post a build order that's great, but people have come to expect a certain caliber of posting. Be prepared to back up your claims and not just shrug off someone that brings up a complaint.
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I'll wait till I see some other replays for a full judgement. Delta quadrent is hardly the most zerg friendly map and not sure how well this would work on a larger map- I know BC got speed buff, but they aren't exactly fast still.
I'd agree that the OP could have used a little more work, what is described in it isn't even what happens in the replay. I appreciate that you will obviously have to adapt your build around what you see and cant go a strict order, but even so, you never push out- fair enough he puts some pressure on you and you stall. You also never build the medivac, not sure for the reasoning on that. Possibly because after holding his push you never intended to push out so felt it wasn't necessary. Would be nice if this was touched on in the OP.
Also what was your plan if that next push didn't work out. Maybe if there were a few more banes and a couple of spores then it was held and on a larger map there would probably be time to get that up. You only had a few hundred minnerals left to mine in your main and no expo, where do you go from there after the 2nd push if it doesn't work?
How much of a difference are spores in this. I doubt they will hurt the BC too much but the would certainly help against the banshees, and they banshee dps also seems quite integral to this working.
It was interesting but would like to see more replays
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the reason that i didn't push out was because he went roaches..... marines without stim or shield and hellions are horrid vs roaches.. the reason why i didn't push out nor build a medivac..
the fact that i didn't expo is because my BCs did way to much dmg to him, I had confidence that one base was more than enough.
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To everyone who is attacking this man's credibility- he is high masters and he knows a thing or 2 about marine scv all ins and thor all ins.
I don't understand why he wouldn't know a thing or 2 about BC rushes.
I've been getting kind of bored picking the same race every game and if I ever consider playing terran doing these kinds of things seem like they would be fun
Unless the guy opens tank viking and doesn't die to the inital harass it seems like this could be pretty potent with the speed increase.
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Nice post OP. Haters goina hate.
You beat Slush, that is awesome!
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On April 04 2011 21:25 huytruong742 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 21:21 loveeholicce wrote:
I don't like an early marine / hellion push without upgrade. 2 hellions is not enough to be effective; either get more hellions before you push or get blue flame somehow. On top of that 8 marines without shield or stim are pretty bad too. I can't imagine any zerg taking damage to this push, considering a round of speedlings is more than enough to completely crush it. As for the battlecruiser, its going to be scouted. Speaking as zerg if I see a terran stay on 1 base for so long I know something ridiculous is up, and with a huge econ advantage (you get to freely drone 2 bases, cause your 2 hellion 8 marine push isn't gonna pressure very well) I'm content with sacrificing like 4 overlords or overseers until I see exactly what you're doing. At that point its ridiculously easy to counter 1 base bc just by stalling with hydras --> corruptors.
Overal a fun build you can do on a bad player but by no means competitive. lol, did you watch the replay? ... you really have no idea how strong 3 hellions 7 marines with medivacs are lol I do it on the ladder all the time.. i'm master lvl.. and high up there, what are you?
I'm in masters if thats relevant at all.
And no, I really don't feel this push is strong. Without stim or blue flame it's just gonna die to zerglings. If I know its coming i can deny it pretty easily. Of course if you don't see it coming, you can be in trouble, but that can be said of basically all terran aggresion
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United States7483 Posts
My concern is with how much gas this build uses on tech, you'll be very very limited with potential variations. You can of course make changes on the fly, but once you've got 2 starports, you're pretty much committed to going heavy air, and you're basically 100% stuck with BC's once that core goes down. You can make marines and hellions, and sure, you can do a ton of damage with your pressure, but there are still a ton of vulnerabilities as a result of having no room for variation, and even the slightest pressure that throws you off will slow you down and weaken your timing dramatically.
The first push basically needs to do a ton of damage, and the rest of it is just formality at that point.
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On April 04 2011 23:00 Alejandrisha wrote:To everyone who is attacking this man's credibility- he is high masters and he knows a thing or 2 about marine scv all ins and thor all ins. I don't understand why he wouldn't know a thing or 2 about BC rushes. I've been getting kind of bored picking the same race every game and if I ever consider playing terran doing these kinds of things seem like they would be fun Unless the guy opens tank viking and doesn't die to the inital harass it seems like this could be pretty potent with the speed increase.
I've seen terrible people in master's. That proves nothing, and this seems like just another "Oh god, i hope he doesn't scout this!" tactics
Still, respect for making it work and i hope it grants you more wins against unsuspecting zergs.
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Pride,
What do you usually win with? How often to the BCs actually change the game? Do you usually win or lose the game after the drop or banshee harass?
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The build seems like a good place to start, but, it seems to me at least that corruptors/mutas in moderate number would do extremely well against this build and then there would still be a bunch of slings on the ground, which has me ify on whether or not to try it out.
Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea of using flying units in tvz (at least it isn't marine/tank), I would love to see some replays!
Sunstrider
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wouldnt this die to a 2 base fast speed bling bust?? 
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On April 05 2011 00:08 prOpSaiton wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 23:00 Alejandrisha wrote:To everyone who is attacking this man's credibility- he is high masters and he knows a thing or 2 about marine scv all ins and thor all ins. I don't understand why he wouldn't know a thing or 2 about BC rushes. I've been getting kind of bored picking the same race every game and if I ever consider playing terran doing these kinds of things seem like they would be fun Unless the guy opens tank viking and doesn't die to the inital harass it seems like this could be pretty potent with the speed increase. I've seen terrible people in master's. That proves nothing, and this seems like just another "Oh god, i hope he doesn't scout this!" tactics.
Sure there are terrible people in masters but top 200 I dont think so
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I have faced this once and I lost to it, partly because I scouted it a bit late. I went for mutas and that was a huge mistake as they deal zero damage to battle cruisers. Fast hydras is probably the right answer, even though I don´t really like that you need such a long time to get up mutas if he decides to expo instead of allinning.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 05 2011 02:15 TearDrop wrote:
I have faced this once and I lost to it, partly because I scouted it a bit late. I went for mutas and that was a huge mistake as they deal zero damage to battle cruisers. Fast hydras is probably the right answer, even though I don´t really like that you need such a long time to get up mutas if he decides to expo instead of allinning.
The 'right' answer is a quick lair with immediate infestation pit after lair, followed by neural parasite to steal the BC and fungal growth to deal with the marines. This is quite rare, and it's probably too late by the time you scout the core.
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On April 05 2011 00:27 murkk wrote:
Pride,
What do you usually win with? How often to the BCs actually change the game? Do you usually win or lose the game after the drop or banshee harass?
they usually die to my hellion and marine harass lol..
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On April 05 2011 01:25 Sunstrider wrote:
The build seems like a good place to start, but, it seems to me at least that corruptors/mutas in moderate number would do extremely well against this build and then there would still be a bunch of slings on the ground, which has me ify on whether or not to try it out.
Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea of using flying units in tvz (at least it isn't marine/tank), I would love to see some replays!
Sunstrider
i'll add in a few more replays soons.
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On April 05 2011 02:33 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 02:15 TearDrop wrote:
I have faced this once and I lost to it, partly because I scouted it a bit late. I went for mutas and that was a huge mistake as they deal zero damage to battle cruisers. Fast hydras is probably the right answer, even though I don´t really like that you need such a long time to get up mutas if he decides to expo instead of allinning. The 'right' answer is a quick lair with immediate infestation pit after lair, followed by neural parasite to steal the BC and fungal growth to deal with the marines. This is quite rare, and it's probably too late by the time you scout the core.
won't work, here's a link where rootdestiny describes it all, though this is a 2 base bcs, worked really well
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/156012-1v1-terran-zerg-mlg-metalopolis
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Hello, this is a pretty cool build and i like the way it looks, but the OP is a bit disorganized a few things left out. If possible fix up the OP a bit, organize it some more, etc etc make it look more like you cared about your OP and you will get more positive responses.
As for the build its self i think it is a very cool build for the reason zerg does not have very powerful anti-air early on, around what time does this build hit and is there any follow ups? Have you tried taking an early expo and then continuing this build?
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even a simple BC rush will own a zerg if not scouted, so probably yes ofc this would work xD
top 200 with 70% success? sounds great :D
I've seen terrible people in master's. That proves nothing, and this seems like just another "Oh god, i hope he doesn't scout this!" tactics
uhh, that's how tvz works? if the z scouts something then he's in advantage, if t denies it then he's in advantage; there isn't much of a middle ground
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Infestors are a terrible idea... especially against BCs/marines/hellions... infestors with Parasite in mind is almost always fail...
I will say pre patch ( assuming this is post patch which it looked like from the replay )... the correct response to this build is mass queens since you can kite the BCs really really easy... obviously not the case post patch... still it doesnt take many hydras or corruptors to shut down this rush...
I'd even do as far just massing roaches as soon as I seen the fusion core... if I scout double starport tech labs I ALWAYS go hydra den and skip spire because 2 port banshee is so annoying and easy to shut down with Hydras...
Again never played this build post patch but pre patch this was easy to deal with... I sat in the high 3k area of masters last season.
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On April 05 2011 02:36 huytruong742 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 00:27 murkk wrote:
Pride,
What do you usually win with? How often to the BCs actually change the game? Do you usually win or lose the game after the drop or banshee harass? they usually die to my hellion and marine harass lol..
I think this is the key point here. In order for your BC antics to do anything you need a very successful harass. But then again with a very successful harass you can win with just about anything. This thread should be renamed to something along the lines of "kill someone with marine/helion harass and finish them off with BC's cuz BC's are cool".
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On April 05 2011 02:52 Pyo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 02:36 huytruong742 wrote:On April 05 2011 00:27 murkk wrote:
Pride,
What do you usually win with? How often to the BCs actually change the game? Do you usually win or lose the game after the drop or banshee harass? they usually die to my hellion and marine harass lol.. I think this is the key point here. In order for your BC antics to do anything you need a very successful harass. But then again with a very successful harass you can win with just about anything. This thread should be renamed to something along the lines of "kill someone with marine/helion harass and finish them off with BC's cuz BC's are cool".
watch this replay just i played recently. my harass got shut down by roaches
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/159237-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
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On April 04 2011 20:43 huytruong742 wrote:(ROOTSlush) 1 base bc http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/156008-1v1-terran-zerg-delta-quadrant(Aisarang) 1 base bc http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/159237-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns(ROOTDestiny) 2 base bc http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/156012-1v1-terran-zerg-mlg-metalopolis( Build order can only go so far, watch the replay ) Build order: 10 supply 13 refin. 15 orbital The idea of this build is to do enough harass, stall enough time to get your bcs up and running. -Factory as soon as you hit 100 gas *grab second gas* *build hellion* -Starport as soon as Factory is completed - Build 1 medivac as soon as Starport is completed - Push out with 2 scvs on autorepair, 3 hellions, 6-8 marines [ assuming you never stopped your marine production] -build core as soon as you push out, put up another starport. -tech lab on both starport -build first banshee to harass PUMP out the first bc when you have even resources -Push out with the first bc with banshee support -start production on 2nd bc and from here, vikings/banshee depending on situation I'm on my laptop currently, updating this tomorrow with more links to replays NEED to sleep night night let me know what you guys think -Pride
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thanks for sharing, cuz sharing is caring ^_^
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BitbyBitPride <3 lol
Personally I enjoyed your replays, especially the one versus ROOTDestiny where he spams infested terrans and you just outrun them with your BCs :D
I like how this build pretty much forces roaches because otherwise the hellion/marine/medivac pressure will do a lot of damage and the BCs are just there to be awesome and finish the game up. And if they go roaches their tech is slowed down so that the BC follow up is very difficult for the zerg to handle.
If you meet Idra on the ladder, please use this build and post the replay of him raging. That would be so awesome lol.
How does this build hold up after you've used it on someone once? Seems like in the replays you posted the zergs reacted poorly, most likely due to inexperience defending the funky two port bc/banshee pressure.
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On April 05 2011 04:30 Devlawl wrote:BitbyBitPride <3 lol Personally I enjoyed your replays, especially the one versus ROOTDestiny where he spams infested terrans and you just outrun them with your BCs :D I like how this build pretty much forces roaches because otherwise the hellion/marine/medivac pressure will do a lot of damage and the BCs are just there to be awesome and finish the game up. And if they go roaches their tech is slowed down so that the BC follow up is very difficult for the zerg to handle. If you meet Idra on the ladder, please use this build and post the replay of him raging. That would be so awesome lol. How does this build hold up after you've used it on someone once? Seems like in the replays you posted the zergs reacted poorly, most likely due to inexperience defending the funky two port bc/banshee pressure.
my hellion/marine/medivac after it's initial push.. i can go on of 10 ways
-bc rush
-2 port banshee expo
-3 port banshee expo
-expo
-mech build
-hellion pressure
-marine bio
-viking reactor
-3x raven push
all depends on the dmg and situation of the game
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On April 05 2011 04:52 huytruong742 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 04:30 Devlawl wrote:BitbyBitPride <3 lol Personally I enjoyed your replays, especially the one versus ROOTDestiny where he spams infested terrans and you just outrun them with your BCs :D I like how this build pretty much forces roaches because otherwise the hellion/marine/medivac pressure will do a lot of damage and the BCs are just there to be awesome and finish the game up. And if they go roaches their tech is slowed down so that the BC follow up is very difficult for the zerg to handle. If you meet Idra on the ladder, please use this build and post the replay of him raging. That would be so awesome lol. How does this build hold up after you've used it on someone once? Seems like in the replays you posted the zergs reacted poorly, most likely due to inexperience defending the funky two port bc/banshee pressure. my hellion/marine/medivac after it's initial push.. i can go on of 10 ways -bc rush -2 port banshee expo -3 port banshee expo -expo -mech build -hellion pressure -marine bio -viking reactor -3x raven push all depends on the dmg, composition of units and situation of the game
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United States15275 Posts
Can you put this strategy through its paces?
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On April 05 2011 05:04 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Can you put this strategy through its paces?
what do you mean?
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It's an interesting build... I was working on mech build with a quick marine/thor, expand, and then BCs. But just looking at your fast hellions... mmmm... maybe it forces Zerg to do roaches.
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On April 05 2011 05:21 murkk wrote:
It's an interesting build... I was working on mech build with a quick marine/thor, expand, and then BCs. But just looking at your fast hellions... mmmm... maybe it forces Zerg to do roaches.
that acutally sounds pretty good.. you need tanks though, sounds so susceptible to 2 base banel bust
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This seems like it would get shut down pretty hard by a no-gas 4 queen opening. 4 queens, a few crawlers and some lings will beat back the initial harass without requiring a roach transition, and then your initial BC has to attack into 4 queens.
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On April 05 2011 05:57 pwadoc wrote:
This seems like it would get shut down pretty hard by a no-gas 4 queen opening. 4 queens, a few crawlers and some lings will beat back the initial harass without requiring a roach transition, and then your initial BC has to attack into 4 queens.
no gas = instant win.. without speed... lings can't do crap vs hellions
I win 90% of my games when the zerg doesn't go speedlings early in the game
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no gas = instant win.. without speed... lings can't do crap vs hellions
I win 90% of my games when the zerg doesn't go speedlings early in the game
no gas = huge creep spread everywhere, blocked ramp and slowlings. Your hellion harass won't do anything vs that opening. Banshees do ok if not scouted, BC will do ok if either of your other early harass works. But as for lings not doing anything vs hellions, you have to fight your way through 3-4 spine crawlers and 4 queens, and the longer you kill things which aren't drones you are massively behind.
Also, the endgame of most zerg is to get a spire which counters all those things. So your strategy is to harass them to death before they get it, which might work just because you have excellent unit control and micro, but you don't seem to like playing macro games which means in the long run, your style of play is flawed and will die out.
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Wow you gave some really nice replays against some of the best players on NA server. Will def try this out on ladder.
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On April 05 2011 05:57 pwadoc wrote:
This seems like it would get shut down pretty hard by a no-gas 4 queen opening. 4 queens, a few crawlers and some lings will beat back the initial harass without requiring a roach transition, and then your initial BC has to attack into 4 queens.
The most annoying thing to see in [G] threads are theorycraft posts about how to beat said strategy. If you have any counter-reps to post, then by all means do so. But I'm guessing you've never played against a semi-competent BC rush before, so don't post ways to beat something you have no experience handling.
I'm going to start handing out temp bans if I see more of this shit.
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On April 05 2011 06:59 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +
no gas = instant win.. without speed... lings can't do crap vs hellions
I win 90% of my games when the zerg doesn't go speedlings early in the game
no gas = huge creep spread everywhere, blocked ramp and slowlings. Your hellion harass won't do anything vs that opening. Banshees do ok if not scouted, BC will do ok if either of your other early harass works. But as for lings not doing anything vs hellions, you have to fight your way through 3-4 spine crawlers and 4 queens, and the longer you kill things which aren't drones you are massively behind. Also, the endgame of most zerg is to get a spire which counters all those things. So your strategy is to harass them to death before they get it, which might work just because you have excellent unit control and micro, but you don't seem to like playing macro games which means in the long run, your style of play is flawed and will die out.
hellion elevated.. i can get behind the minerals lines. my hellion harass will shut him down.
with 1 medivac, 3 hellions and 7 marines.. it work wonders
you're wrong my friend
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United States15275 Posts
On April 05 2011 05:08 huytruong742 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 05:04 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Can you put this strategy through its paces? what do you mean?
I see three successful replays, but I don't see any actual discussion about the limitations/strengths of the build in relation to the matchup. If the marine/hellion/medivac push fails and the zerg doesn't make roaches in response, do you change your strategy? Do you delay BCs for other units if your opponent goes for an immediate counterattack? Is it vulnerable to a certain timing window i.e. if zerg scouts the starports and the core, can BCs come out for the push before spore crawlers/hydralisks/corruptors/mutalisks come out on the field? So I'm wondering if you're going to test this strategy to see
I watched the first game and Slush kinda failed. He even scouted the core and 2nd starport before it was finished, and he decided to make pure queens. Battlecruiser armor cuts into queen attack so badly they become near-worthless, but he had to account for banshees as well. I would hardly blame him for making a queen defense.
Destiny...sigh. Bad overlord placement makes your initial push monstrously successful; even while the resources lost is closer than it initially appears, those drones spend a long time waiting near the ramp for a counter-attack. If I was him, immediately after that attack I would have thrown down my 9 o'clock third: between the clear teching and number of units, your push was meant to cause damage or put you behind. Instead he constantly uses larva for zerglings and infestors (with no macro hatch to boot) and expands late...at the gold. He gets overlord speed and never uses it to scout your base. Even after you successfully ravaged his main the counterattack could have proved fatal if he had bothered to make a baneling nest. And even though he has double evo chamber he doesn't make spore crawlers while his minerals exceed +2000.
It was touch and go with Aisarang. He held off the drops beautifully but overreacted with more zerglings and roaches. A lot of your success came from the relative inactivity of that 12 o'clock overlord. It could easily stopped the core if it had moved into position to spot the expansion. You had the same counterattack problem as Destiny but Aisarang executed it better and nearly base-traded with you.
Overall, I like the idea of fast BCs as a potentially game-ending blow and using an early harass to make zerg play defensively. However once you make BCs in that manner it seems like you are ultimately committed to a 1-base play. You only expanded in Game 2 and that was largely because Destiny delayed your second gas for so long.
I see this becoming a viable strategy if you actually expand after the initial harass and don't reveal your battlecruisers until the very end. On a map like Shakuras you could convert this into a very strong two-base push that he will have literally no time to react to if he doesn't scout it.
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On April 05 2011 07:11 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 05:57 pwadoc wrote:
This seems like it would get shut down pretty hard by a no-gas 4 queen opening. 4 queens, a few crawlers and some lings will beat back the initial harass without requiring a roach transition, and then your initial BC has to attack into 4 queens. The most annoying thing to see in [G] threads are theorycraft posts about how to beat said strategy. If you have any counter-reps to post, then by all means do so. But I'm guessing you've never played against a semi-competent BC rush before, so don't post ways to beat something you have no experience handling. I'm going to start handing out temp bans if I see more of this shit.
much love <3, he has no clue what hellion harass does when zerg has no speed
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On April 05 2011 06:59 darkscream wrote:
Also, the endgame of most zerg is to get a spire which counters all those things. So your strategy is to harass them to death before they get it, which might work just because you have excellent unit control and micro, but you don't seem to like playing macro games which means in the long run, your style of play is flawed and will die out.
He's posting one strategy and you start talking as if he'll be flogging this till the day he dies. Openings like this are cool for tournament play, even if they aren't stable.
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I also tried an BC rush, but not against Zerg. I think its much more effective against Protoss, combined with a Raven and PDD.
BO:
10 Depot
12 Racks -> constant Marine production
13 Gas
15 OC
@100Gas Fac -> constant Hellion production
2. Gas
@100Gas Starport
@100% Starport Techlab + Raven + Core
@100% Raven -> BC
@100% BC -> push out
You need to hide the core, so the protoss wont think that there will be bc soon. With your raven you can kill observers and hide your (not placed) expansion/tech buildings.
Played it just 2-3 times, but always won with it.
/edit: Saison 1 -> 3.5k Terran
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United States15275 Posts
On April 05 2011 06:59 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +
no gas = instant win.. without speed... lings can't do crap vs hellions
I win 90% of my games when the zerg doesn't go speedlings early in the game
no gas = huge creep spread everywhere, blocked ramp and slowlings. Your hellion harass won't do anything vs that opening. Banshees do ok if not scouted, BC will do ok if either of your other early harass works. But as for lings not doing anything vs hellions, you have to fight your way through 3-4 spine crawlers and 4 queens, and the longer you kill things which aren't drones you are massively behind. Also, the endgame of most zerg is to get a spire which counters all those things. So your strategy is to harass them to death before they get it, which might work just because you have excellent unit control and micro, but you don't seem to like playing macro games which means in the long run, your style of play is flawed and will die out.
Actually, his harass did nothing in Game 3 and his BCs proceeded to wreck Aisarang's economy. Aisarang only survived because he was able to make corruptors in time.
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Have you guys even seen the replays? I watched the first two and my initial reaction was much like Slush's (scout fusion core ---> "... ....") This is the most loco 1 base play I have seen so far. Though I must say both games were sooo close to failing, although I'm pretty impressed how you managed to pull ahead in G2 without the hellion marine drop doing any damage at all.
As for the build it's obviously new, cool and creative and will work against a lot of players. It seemed like both Zergs went roaches pre-emptively though (new trend to counter the usual hellion play?) which delayed lair and ultimately their corruptors. Though the use of the viking was just genius.. Man I'll give this a shot in some practice games tomorrow and try it on ladder if I don't fail miserably.
And to whoever said an early marine hellion drop isn't powerful.. just lol (though I do it with two medvacs, am I stupid?)
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On April 05 2011 07:33 EmilA wrote:
Have you guys even seen the replays? I watched the first two and my initial reaction was much like Slush's (scout fusion core ---> "... ....") This is the most loco 1 base play I have seen so far. Though I must say both games were sooo close to failing, although I'm pretty impressed how you managed to pull ahead in G2 without the hellion marine drop doing any damage at all.
As for the build it's obviously new, cool and creative and will work against a lot of players. It seemed like both Zergs went roaches pre-emptively though (new trend to counter the usual hellion play?) which delayed lair and ultimately their corruptors. Though the use of the viking was just genius.. Man I'll give this a shot in some practice games tomorrow and try it on ladder if I don't fail miserably.
And to whoever said an early marine hellion drop isn't powerful.. just lol (though I do it with two medvacs, am I stupid?)
ya someone agrees with me, i'll post more replays when i get a chance.. i have to many tvz replays and i don't know which one is bc rush =/
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A Top 200 Terran posts an interesting strategy, and the low masters rabble descends with much teeth-gnashing.
Thanks for posting, Huy. Looks very compelling.
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Pride, I like the idea behind your strategy, but what are your thoughts on the premise of rushing BCs to elicit some response (say corruptors) and then swapping to something on the ground, utilizing the corruptor investment a complete waste of minerals/gas/supply? I know in one of my TvZs recently when I was drunk I went BCs (with tank/thor/3:3marinemarauder) at like the 35min mark on Shakuras, he built a ton of corruptors to murder my BCs but then I just went marauder/tank/marine and sprinted across the map to kill him since he had nearly 40 food invested in corruptors, (and then however much food in drones) it wasn't hard for my ground army to kill his low supply ground army.
I'll find the replay if you want, but it's not a good game at all, really bad play on both players sides, but I just wanted to hear your thoughts on going BCs to elicit a response, and then hard countering the response (or in the case of corruptors, ignoring* it)
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On April 05 2011 08:06 spbelky wrote:
Pride, I like the idea behind your strategy, but what are your thoughts on the premise of rushing BCs to elicit some response (say corruptors) and then swapping to something on the ground, utilizing the corruptor investment a complete waste of minerals/gas/supply? I know in one of my TvZs recently when I was drunk I went BCs (with tank/thor/3:3marinemarauder) at like the 35min mark on Shakuras, he built a ton of corruptors to murder my BCs but then I just went marauder/tank/marine and sprinted across the map to kill him since he had nearly 40 food invested in corruptors, (and then however much food in drones) it wasn't hard for my ground army to kill his low supply ground army.
I'll find the replay if you want, but it's not a good game at all, really bad play on both players sides, but I just wanted to hear your thoughts on going BCs to elicit a response, and then hard countering the response (or in the case of corruptors, ignoring* it)
The problem with this is a smart zerg won't build to much corruptors. So far I find that BCs are more effective early game to a little slight mid game, I haven't tried a late game with bcs mix in composition.
but meh
-Pride
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Canada13389 Posts
looking forwatd to an expanded op since its very difficult to get an idea of this build based on the current op. nothing against you as a player im sure you ate good and this is a good build to throw on once in a while but the op does need some work
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Actually to all those doubters, a fast rush to BCs is pretty strong as you can have one out and hitting them before their spire finishes, not to mention that when you do the push you not only delay the spire as he defends, but it keeps him from thinking your doing something sneaky because you are attacking. Typically most zergs have 2 queens, MAYBE 3 for defence, you should see what a BC does to this many queens...
This is an awesome strategy to have in your back pocket to throw in and mix things up with, not to mention that it's pretty unconventional. Another thing people seem to overlook is that even if they DO scout it and get out enough queens to defend, you just pull back and you now have a BC enforcing your ground army.
Edit: Just checked the numbers, you can have a BC built by 7:20 with about 1300 minerals to build marines/hellions/expansion with.
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On April 05 2011 08:44 ZeromuS wrote:
looking forwatd to an expanded op since its very difficult to get an idea of this build based on the current op. nothing against you as a player im sure you ate good and this is a good build to throw on once in a while but the op does need some work
slightly lazy, I just need more free and i'll update the BO in more depth.. just a little vague
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On April 05 2011 08:46 dmillz wrote:
Actually to all those doubters, a fast rush to BCs is pretty strong as you can have one out and hitting them before their spire finishes, not to mention that when you do the push you not only delay the spire as he defends, but it keeps him from thinking your doing something sneaky because you are attacking. Typically most zergs have 2 queens, MAYBE 3 for defence, you should see what a BC does to this many queens...
Edit: Just checked the numbers, you can have a BC built by 7:20 with about 1300 minerals to build marines/hellions/expansion with.
stil twecking it to perfection, but it seems to work great so far.
- pride
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doesnt mass ling + mass infestor own any type of high tech unit composition by terrans? (ling take all damage from ground fire while infestor take control of bcs
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The FASTEST way to get out a BC is this BO:
10 Supply Depot
12 Refinery
13 Barracks (Naked)
16 Factory (Naked)
17 Refinery
18 Orbital Command
18 Supply Depot
18 Starport (Naked)
21 Fusion Core
21 Starport Tech Lab
23 Supply Depot
25 Battle Cruiser
34 Supply Depot
This is the one I mentioned that allows you to get the BC out at 7:20 with ~1300 minerals leftover to do what you want with. Remember that if you are building marines/hellions for a push/defence you will need additional supply depots thrown in to this to support it.
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On April 05 2011 08:50 dde wrote:
doesnt mass ling + mass infestor own any type of high tech unit composition by terrans? (ling take all damage from ground fire while infestor take control of bcs
the game vs rootdestiny, He didn't really have much time to respond to get the neural parasite or w/e its called. He then went mass infested terrans which failed..Also the push was just the BCs alone with air support.
-pride
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On April 05 2011 08:52 dmillz wrote:
The FASTEST way to get out a BC is this BO:
10 Supply Depot
12 Refinery
13 Barracks (Naked)
16 Factory (Naked)
17 Refinery
18 Orbital Command
18 Supply Depot
18 Starport (Naked)
21 Fusion Core
21 Starport Tech Lab
23 Supply Depot
25 Battle Cruiser
34 Supply Depot
This is the one I mentioned that allows you to get the BC out at 7:20 with ~1300 minerals leftover to do what you want with.
I don't know if straight bcs would be effective.
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On April 05 2011 08:54 huytruong742 wrote:
I don't know if straight bcs would be effective.
It wouldn't, this is just a BASE build order that gets you a BC the fastest possible way, you then incorporate your marines/hellions into it and VIOLA.
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On April 05 2011 08:55 dmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 08:54 huytruong742 wrote:
I don't know if straight bcs would be effective. It wouldn't, this is just a BASE build order that gets you a BC the fastest possible way, you then incorporate your marines/hellions into it and VIOLA.
i'll research on that and get back to you
-pride
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Neural takes too long to hold this rush I think. It also has the drawback of not actually killing the battlecruiser. Maybe the queens can take it out but it'd be close. That's one of those things that requires a lot of playtesting to figure out how to hold off.
Meanwhile the rest of terrans minerals goes into hellion-marine. unless zerg was planning to roach all-in, hes not going to come out ahead in the fight.
Personally I think 3 corruptors is the way to go, followed by standard ling-bling-muta.
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On April 05 2011 08:56 huytruong742 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 08:55 dmillz wrote:On April 05 2011 08:54 huytruong742 wrote:
I don't know if straight bcs would be effective. It wouldn't, this is just a BASE build order that gets you a BC the fastest possible way, you then incorporate your marines/hellions into it and VIOLA. i'll research on that and get back to you -pride
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=150082
There, the original BC rush thread. Forgot to bump that thing after 1.3.
I'm not a huge fan of the banshee before BC though, rather I like Raven before BC against Toss and viking against Zerg.
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On April 05 2011 09:00 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 08:56 huytruong742 wrote:On April 05 2011 08:55 dmillz wrote:On April 05 2011 08:54 huytruong742 wrote:
I don't know if straight bcs would be effective. It wouldn't, this is just a BASE build order that gets you a BC the fastest possible way, you then incorporate your marines/hellions into it and VIOLA. i'll research on that and get back to you -pride http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=150082There, the original BC rush thread. Forgot to bump that thing after 1.3. I'm not a huge fan of the banshee before BC though, rather I like Raven before BC against Toss and viking against Zerg.
scv repair got nerfed doesnt' work no more..banels killl everything
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I understand that this works even in master league but it looks sooo flimsy. I mean you are BARELY BARELY winning by pulling all of your god damn overmade scvs and barely getting GGs.
Destiny game looked more stable because of 2 base though
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I lost to this today. The BC ms speed increase is insane, they already have a ton of hit points and with this speed they can retreat, be fixed, and come back for more. What seems like a preposterous strat may actually turn to a real build order. Then again, any possible combo of terran unit composition is great against zerg.
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I'm a Master Z player and Pride's strat is legit. When I scout the T is going air I do what almost every Z does and goes for my Muta's. But then his attack never comes and I'm waiting thinking something isn't right I'll take another look. By then it's to late and Bc's are up in my face. I've seen him now do it to many top tier gamers over and over.
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Just watched the Slush game and holy shit... don't know what to say pretty crazy build. Although, towards the end of the initial bc harass where slush had 2 queens left, I think he demonstrated what should be done. At the beginning he was just sitting there shooting the bc, but when he was down to 2 queens he starting kiting the bc while shooting, keeping just out of range of the bc. Also, if perhaps he had skipped an inject and had energy for transfuse when the initial bc/banshee arrived, I think he would have held it as well.
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On April 05 2011 05:35 huytruong742 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 05:21 murkk wrote:
It's an interesting build... I was working on mech build with a quick marine/thor, expand, and then BCs. But just looking at your fast hellions... mmmm... maybe it forces Zerg to do roaches. that acutally sounds pretty good.. you need tanks though, sounds so susceptible to 2 base banel bust
As I found out last night multiple times.
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I tried this strategy out and it did not work at all. The problem is that my initial attack with marines, hellions and 2 SCV got countered by some spine crawlers and speed-lings on creep. But since he massed speed-lings his spire was late so when my BC arrived I managed to do some damage killing some queens and a few drownes. But then he just massed hydras which easily beat my hellion/BC/Marine combo since he had two bases compared to my one.
However the strategy itself may be good since it works on high master level. But on my mid-diamond level I suspect it too hard to execute correctly compared to the normal standard strategies. I will give it a few more tries though to so see if I can refine the execution of the strategy.
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United States366 Posts
This is going to be a very difficult strategy to execute, as Pride relies on razor-thin timings and solid mechanics (sound familiar?)
I lose dozens of practice games to Pride, and I can usually spot multiple points in the replay where I could have just killed him.
It may also be difficult to isolate a single build order from the replays because of Huy's pretty on-the-fly and reactive play. He tends to view his games as state functions, not path functions: he makes quick decisions based upon the current gamestate, ignoring much of what has happened before.
Huy, maybe you should talk about some of the triggers and timings that you use when you play this build.
How do you go about executing your harass?
What deviations will you make based upon what you scout?
What will trigger you to pull scvs? (....)
Your OP is pretty barren, so I suggest fleshing it out with the game-knowledge that I know you possess.
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On April 06 2011 03:58 MockHamill wrote:
I tried this strategy out and it did not work at all. The problem is that my initial attack with marines, hellions and 2 SCV got countered by some spine crawlers and speed-lings on creep. But since he massed speed-lings his spire was late so when my BC arrived I managed to do some damage killing some queens and a few drownes. But then he just massed hydras which easily beat my hellion/BC/Marine combo since he had two bases compared to my one.
However the strategy itself may be good since it works on high master level. But on my mid-diamond level I suspect it too hard to execute correctly compared to the normal standard strategies. I will give it a few more tries though to so see if I can refine the execution of the strategy.
Did you have medivac with you and while you were harassing with the BC, did you macro? In most cases you should be ahead in supply if the BC did a well enough dmg to the mineral line.
-pride
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Done it
Won it
Loved it
Ihve had some troubles with quick banelings tearing up my drop tho'
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On April 06 2011 04:23 Chemist391 wrote:
This is going to be a very difficult strategy to execute, as Pride relies on razor-thin timings and solid mechanics (sound familiar?)
I lose dozens of practice games to Pride, and I can usually spot multiple points in the replay where I could have just killed him.
It may also be difficult to isolate a single build order from the replays because of Huy's pretty on-the-fly and reactive play. He tends to view his games as state functions, not path functions: he makes quick decisions based upon the current gamestate, ignoring much of what has happened before.
Huy, maybe you should talk about some of the triggers and timings that you use when you play this build.
How do you go about executing your harass?
What deviations will you make based upon what you scout?
What will trigger you to pull scvs? (....)
Your OP is pretty barren, so I suggest fleshing it out with the game-knowledge that I know you possess.
barren? Very....lack of perseverance.. meh
How do you go about executing your harass? The whole idea of the 3 hellion, 1 medivac, 2 scv on autorepair, and 6-8 marines is to be not surround by the zerglings while harassing. I really don't see how you can lose that army unless you get surrounded, mismicroed or of course.. they mass zerglings.
What deviations will you make based upon what you scout?
mass lings : Prepared for some crazy banel bust
Roaches: No problem! Late spire, use that to your advantage
What will trigger you to pull scvs? (....) My theory to most games are, why drag on a 30 min. game when you can finish the game in 10? On account, my scvs pulling is usually on a timing push with majority of my scv to end the game...
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On April 06 2011 05:53 Catch]22 wrote:
Done it
Won it
Loved it
Ihve had some troubles with quick banelings tearing up my drop tho'
if that is the case, just harass between the 2 bases with the 3 hellions and 2 scv on auto repair.
If they went that early of banels to stop your initial push.. they are behind when the bcs arrived.
-pride
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On April 05 2011 08:01 IPA wrote:
A Top 200 Terran posts an interesting strategy, and the low masters rabble descends with much teeth-gnashing.
Thanks for posting, Huy. Looks very compelling.
QFT
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pro gamers adapt and do variations of the same concept build. prides concept is to use banshee+bcs do to massive damage and then go all in with scvs.
he builds bcs are different times after he sees what the zerg is doing, so there is not a do this at 20supply do this at 30 and win.
and all those saids hydras will completely counter this. note none of the top zergs in the replays went hydras and all went for queens into air. hydras are pretty expensive and will get evaporated by the marine+hellion+svc allin.
thank you for posting the replays it was very interesting to see how powerful banshee+bc combo is. and mad zergs are mad
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It is all very much about denying information to your opponent with this build. Good post but I'd like to see a revision with more information about:
-Timings for Zgamer (Such as, he can have two infestors with NP at this point in time, or three corruptors from a spire at this point, etc.)
-How to micro the engagement (How many scvs do i bring? How to control the marines + Medivac?)
-Macro during and after the engagement. (What am i building with my production facilities back at home while i am engaging? Should i be adding production facilities? Should i be expanding? Is there room in the build to squeeze in a CC at some point? If i expand, how should i defend it?)
-Endgame (So, I killed a sizeable amount of his queens and army, but i was pushed back by spore colonies. What upgrades should i be getting if the game continues? When should i next attack? How am i going to delay his expanding after the attack?)
I think you can do a lot of polishing, but I am not complaining, i am ASKING you to do so. I am kind of tired with going siege tank marine medivac every game and if your strat is a viable break from the monotony I would love to hear more about it.
-c
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Some of these replys make me want to pull my hair out
It's a bc rush that can beat pro zergs apresssshed thanks pride <3
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On April 06 2011 06:51 c0sm0naut wrote:
It is all very much about denying information to your opponent with this build. Good post but I'd like to see a revision with more information about:
-Timings for Zgamer (Such as, he can have two infestors with NP at this point in time, or three corruptors from a spire at this point, etc.)
-How to micro the engagement (How many scvs do i bring? How to control the marines + Medivac?)
-Macro during and after the engagement. (What am i building with my production facilities back at home while i am engaging? Should i be adding production facilities? Should i be expanding? Is there room in the build to squeeze in a CC at some point? If i expand, how should i defend it?)
-Endgame (So, I killed a sizeable amount of his queens and army, but i was pushed back by spore colonies. What upgrades should i be getting if the game continues? When should i next attack? How am i going to delay his expanding after the attack?)
I think you can do a lot of polishing, but I am not complaining, i am ASKING you to do so. I am kind of tired with going siege tank marine medivac every game and if your strat is a viable break from the monotony I would love to hear more about it.
-c
-How to micro the engagement (How many scvs do i bring? How to control the marines + Medivac?)
just 2 scvs on autorepair... when engaged, the less surface area the more chance that you won't get surrounded by the zerlings..
(What am i building with my production facilities back at home while i am engaging? Should i be adding production facilities? Should i be expanding? Is there room in the build to squeeze in a CC at some point? If i expand, how should i defend it?)
yes add 2 more barracks . I find that the counter to this build is infestor play with spire.. so while you're harassing with the bc. build a CC.
-Endgame (So, I killed a sizeable amount of his queens and army, but i was pushed back by spore colonies. What upgrades should i be getting if the game continues? When should i next attack? How am i going to delay his expanding after the attack?)
AT this point you should be ahead if your bc rush was successful. macro off of 2 base
I'll be experimenting more on this while putting up a expansion instead of 1 base play.
-pride
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^
o god. how embarrassing -.-
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it's worth mentioning that if you put the scvs on auto-repair and keep them in the medivac, you can load hellions into the medivac and they'll be repaired by the scvs which could make that initial pressure stronger in certain situations
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On April 06 2011 18:57 Seagull_ wrote:
it's worth mentioning that if you put the scvs on auto-repair and keep them in the medivac, you can load hellions into the medivac and they'll be repaired by the scvs which could make that initial pressure stronger in certain situations
ah yes.. it's truely amazing ^_______^
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I can't believe everyone thinks an 8 marine 3 hellion push with medivac is weak. Have you watched any tvz at all?
Goody beat fruitdealer with it.
Pokebunny does it very frequently, depending on the map (almost always on scrap station).
Fargo also does this on maps that seem suitable for it.
Now, yet another top 200 player suggests that it is strong, posts replays proving it and everyone flames him. *Sigh*
Sure, zerg could hold it off, it rarely is meant to end the game, but zerg will have to cut drones and make lings and roaches to do so, and if zerg doesn't then he will lose drones, if zerg is allining anyway, you will be able to see it coming and react accordingly. There is no way a marine hellion medivac opening is bad, and there is plenty of replays to prove it.
Back to the topic of the BC rush transition, I am not certain of its efficacy against a zerg that can react well to it, but your replays show that it is extremely viable atm.
Making your cc into a pf to defend expo seems strong as well, since even with bc speed upgrade they are still fairly immobile.
Excellent post OP.
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On April 06 2011 19:19 Jesushooves wrote:
I can't believe everyone thinks an 8 marine 3 hellion push with medivac is weak. Have you watched any tvz at all?
Goody beat fruitdealer with it.
Pokebunny does it very frequently, depending on the map (almost always on scrap station).
Fargo also does this on maps that seem suitable for it.
Now, yet another top 200 player suggests that it is strong, posts replays proving it and everyone flames him. *Sigh*
Sure, zerg could hold it off, it rarely is meant to end the game, but zerg will have to cut drones and make lings and roaches to do so, and if zerg doesn't then he will lose drones, if zerg is allining anyway, you will be able to see it coming and react accordingly. There is no way a marine hellion medivac opening is bad, and there is plenty of replays to prove it.
Back to the topic of the BC rush transition, I am not certain of its efficacy against a zerg that can react well to it, but your replays show that it is extremely viable atm.
Making your cc into a pf to defend expo seems strong as well, since even with bc speed upgrade they are still fairly immobile.
Excellent post OP.
Thanks for the positive feedback
Seems like most zerg doesn't know how to deal with it quite yet due to it being so new. I just need to experiment on it a lot more to be positive, but as far as i'm aware, mutas is by far the worst against BCs'
-Pride
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im pretty new to the TL community and forums but since my first day of SC2 the BC was my nr1 unit.
first of all i want to say that 8 marine 3 hellion 1 medivac is a build that should be absolute STANDARD terran opener
simple 1-1-1 with the highest amount of units you can have at the point
yet people tell this might be BS and as thankfully already mentioned there are a whole bunch of pro terrans using this build
TLO whiped Tyler with it in a TvP at MLG
GooDy vs Nestea on metalopolis - which was up to the banshee the EXACT same opener Pride uses and it won him the game at TSL against the such called NR.1 Zerg out there
SjoW beat Squirtle in another TvP at IEM
edit: i actually saw that push the first time on KawaiiRice's stream in TvZ and it was his bread and butter cookie cutter opener when i used to watch his stream
Same counts for TLOs stream, yet he does this a lot more in TvT
just to give a few examples.
now considering the buildorder - you can do that 1-1-1 opener off of 1 gas set an expo and have the same push coming to your opponent(8m,3h,1vac), have you experimented with it?
I think that might be the best way to open your tech path towards banshee / bc atacks and still have that awesome medivac marine hellion combo on the field to harass and simply hate on the zerg in addition to an expo.
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On April 06 2011 19:50 OneNutTony wrote:
im pretty new to the TL community and forums but since my first day of SC2 the BC was my nr1 unit.
first of all i want to say that 8 marine 3 hellion 1 medivac is a build that should be absolute STANDARD terran opener
simple 1-1-1 with the highest amount of units you can have at the point
yet people tell this might be BS and as thankfully already mentioned there are a whole bunch of pro terrans using this build
TLO whiped Tyler with it in a TvP at MLG
GooDy vs Nestea on metalopolis - which was up to the banshee the EXACT same opener Pride uses and it won him the game at TSL against the such called NR.1 Zerg out there
SjoW beat Squirtle in another TvP at IEM
edit: i actually saw that push the first time on KawaiiRice's stream in TvZ and it was his bread and butter cookie cutter opener when i used to watch his stream
Same counts for TLOs stream, yet he does this a lot more in TvT
just to give a few examples.
now considering the buildorder - you can do that 1-1-1 opener off of 1 gas set an expo and have the same push coming to your opponent(8m,3h,1vac), have you experimented with it?
I think that might be the best way to open your tech path towards banshee / bc atacks and still have that awesome medivac marine hellion combo on the field to harass and simply hate on the zerg in addition to an expo.
my 6-8 marines, 3 h, and 1 vac is a standard build opener I use in almost all of zerg. 60% of the time.. they just die to it or losing to many drones to the point where. i could box all my units..hit 1.. click a... sit and drink tea.. and profit..
-pride
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I did this 3 times in last nights ladder session and went 2 -1 (diamond league). My execution was rather poor in all three games but the ones that I won the opponent massed queens against the initial banshee which all died as soon as the BC arrived. In the one loss the guy spammed spore colonies everywhere as soon as he saw the BC.
I will say that the marine+helion+medivac push works GREAT. I usually find an open spot and drop in the main bypassing all the spines. If the overlord is out of position it will do a ton of damage or at least force them to spam zerglings.
Tonight I will work more on the macro of the build. I had trouble getting depots down fast enough to account for the amount of units being produced.
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Watched both ROOT replays.
I've been doing the blueflame hellion poke/harrass into marauder hellion stim push, and I must thank you guys for introducing the 3h8m1med build and showed it to me. I am in awe. I have done (LOVED) 3 hellion drops and can do the timing perfectly, but Ive never brought my marines along for the fun yet.
I watched the replays and I have to say my first impression is that Pride does not have the best control in any sense. But this is not against him. This is a strategy game, but even though we put a lot of emphasis on control, the "enough" amount of control with a good strategy is always a lovely way to win. Watching the replays made me know just how good this build can be with any mid/top dia level control but with a very strong strategy with it.
Im interested if Pride has anymore of these unconventional but extremely effective build that doesnt require a ton of control, and is here really to add more flavor to the game, and put more emphasis on the "fun" (Not for the zerg player tho o_O, but for me seeing BCs no matter what race Im playing always puts a smile in my heart.)
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On April 06 2011 20:12 scrub96 wrote:
I did this 3 times in last nights ladder session and went 2 -1 (diamond league). My execution was rather poor in all three games but the ones that I won the opponent massed queens against the initial banshee which all died as soon as the BC arrived. In the one loss the guy spammed spore colonies everywhere as soon as he saw the BC.
I will say that the marine+helion+medivac push works GREAT. I usually find an open spot and drop in the main bypassing all the spines. If the overlord is out of position it will do a ton of damage or at least force them to spam zerglings.
Tonight I will work more on the macro of the build. I had trouble getting depots down fast enough to account for the amount of units being produced.
just be vigilant with the supplies then xD
If they spammed spore hardcore.. do as much dmg as you can .. retreat and macro up hard.
-pride
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On April 06 2011 20:14 padfoota wrote:
Watched both ROOT replays.
I've been doing the blueflame hellion poke/harrass into marauder hellion stim push, and I must thank you guys for introducing the 3h8m1med build and showed it to me. I am in awe. I have done (LOVED) 3 hellion drops and can do the timing perfectly, but Ive never brought my marines along for the fun yet.
I watched the replays and I have to say my first impression is that Pride does not have the best control in any sense. But this is not against him. This is a strategy game, but even though we put a lot of emphasis on control, the "enough" amount of control with a good strategy is always a lovely way to win. Watching the replays made me know just how good this build can be with any mid/top dia level control but with a very strong strategy with it.
Im interested if Pride has anymore of these unconventional but extremely effective build that doesnt require a ton of control, and is here really to add more flavor to the game, and put more emphasis on the "fun" (Not for the zerg player tho o_O, but for me seeing BCs no matter what race Im playing always puts a smile in my heart.)
Hmmm.. which one was bad control? i would like to know, so that i could improved. I like micro intense builds where the user has to have a decent amount of control, but uh... i can't think of any that is mega fun and mega gimmicky other than raven timing auto-turret push.
Hmm.. i should do a strat on that ^__^
-Pride
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On April 06 2011 20:21 huytruong742 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 20:14 padfoota wrote:
Watched both ROOT replays.
I've been doing the blueflame hellion poke/harrass into marauder hellion stim push, and I must thank you guys for introducing the 3h8m1med build and showed it to me. I am in awe. I have done (LOVED) 3 hellion drops and can do the timing perfectly, but Ive never brought my marines along for the fun yet.
I watched the replays and I have to say my first impression is that Pride does not have the best control in any sense. But this is not against him. This is a strategy game, but even though we put a lot of emphasis on control, the "enough" amount of control with a good strategy is always a lovely way to win. Watching the replays made me know just how good this build can be with any mid/top dia level control but with a very strong strategy with it.
Im interested if Pride has anymore of these unconventional but extremely effective build that doesnt require a ton of control, and is here really to add more flavor to the game, and put more emphasis on the "fun" (Not for the zerg player tho o_O, but for me seeing BCs no matter what race Im playing always puts a smile in my heart.) Hmmm.. which one was bad control? i would like to know, so that i could improved. My bc and banshee control is horrid though.. but my hellion control is uber.. and marines as well. I like micro intense builds where the user has to have a decent amount of control, but uh... i can't think of any that is mega fun and mega gimmicky other than raven timing auto-turret push. Hmm.. i should do a strat on that ^__^ -Pride
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On April 06 2011 20:21 huytruong742 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 20:14 padfoota wrote:
Watched both ROOT replays.
I've been doing the blueflame hellion poke/harrass into marauder hellion stim push, and I must thank you guys for introducing the 3h8m1med build and showed it to me. I am in awe. I have done (LOVED) 3 hellion drops and can do the timing perfectly, but Ive never brought my marines along for the fun yet.
I watched the replays and I have to say my first impression is that Pride does not have the best control in any sense. But this is not against him. This is a strategy game, but even though we put a lot of emphasis on control, the "enough" amount of control with a good strategy is always a lovely way to win. Watching the replays made me know just how good this build can be with any mid/top dia level control but with a very strong strategy with it.
Im interested if Pride has anymore of these unconventional but extremely effective build that doesnt require a ton of control, and is here really to add more flavor to the game, and put more emphasis on the "fun" (Not for the zerg player tho o_O, but for me seeing BCs no matter what race Im playing always puts a smile in my heart.) Hmmm.. which one was bad control? i would like to know, so that i could improved. I like micro intense builds where the user has to have a decent amount of control, but uh... i can't think of any that is mega fun and mega gimmicky other than raven timing auto-turret push. Hmm.. i should do a strat on that ^__^ -Pride
He is probably talking about the game vs SLush where you brought all your SCVs/Marines/Helions which got demolished by the banelings. I was surprised by it as well. It looks like you could have split better there (or even lead with the scvs to tank the banelings) and come out better. Either way you won and you are a much better player than myself so maybe you had your reasons.
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On April 06 2011 20:37 scrub96 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 20:21 huytruong742 wrote:On April 06 2011 20:14 padfoota wrote:
Watched both ROOT replays.
I've been doing the blueflame hellion poke/harrass into marauder hellion stim push, and I must thank you guys for introducing the 3h8m1med build and showed it to me. I am in awe. I have done (LOVED) 3 hellion drops and can do the timing perfectly, but Ive never brought my marines along for the fun yet.
I watched the replays and I have to say my first impression is that Pride does not have the best control in any sense. But this is not against him. This is a strategy game, but even though we put a lot of emphasis on control, the "enough" amount of control with a good strategy is always a lovely way to win. Watching the replays made me know just how good this build can be with any mid/top dia level control but with a very strong strategy with it.
Im interested if Pride has anymore of these unconventional but extremely effective build that doesnt require a ton of control, and is here really to add more flavor to the game, and put more emphasis on the "fun" (Not for the zerg player tho o_O, but for me seeing BCs no matter what race Im playing always puts a smile in my heart.) Hmmm.. which one was bad control? i would like to know, so that i could improved. I like micro intense builds where the user has to have a decent amount of control, but uh... i can't think of any that is mega fun and mega gimmicky other than raven timing auto-turret push. Hmm.. i should do a strat on that ^__^ -Pride He is probably talking about the game vs SLush where you brought all your SCVs/Marines/Helions which got demolished by the banelings. I was surprised by it as well. It looks like you could have split better there (or even lead with the scvs to tank the banelings) and come out better. Either way you won and you are a much better player than myself so maybe you had your reasons.
i didn't really split much that game but i freaked out when teh banels did more dmg then it should.. i got over confidence i guesss..
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I saw ROOTCatZ lose to this on his stream yesterday. (on ladder)
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I'm not sure you invented this strategy enough to have written it up with your name, I wrote up basically exactly the same BO a few weeks ago except subtract the medivac which granted adds additional harass ability but slows the BC. If you cut a couple hellions I think you could fit an expansion into this strategy to make it more long term viable.
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On April 06 2011 23:30 statikg wrote:
I'm not sure you invented this strategy enough to have written it up with your name, I wrote up basically exactly the same BO a few weeks ago except subtract the medivac which granted adds additional harass ability but slows the BC. If you cut a couple hellions I think you could fit an expansion into this strategy to make it more long term viable.
Its nothing new i used to do a build like this as a joke, but with BC Buff it is now actually viable because it catches people off gaurd. I dont think any strategy post with a rough BO should be named after anybody honestly, it just gets annoying when i read the strategy forum and everybody does some random BO that they got to work and names it "X randoms crazy build".
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I saw you do this yesterday against ROOTCatZ via his Stream. He was able to hold it off, but it was darn close. A clear transition to two bases or lower tech is missing, after it failed against him it seemed you had no recourse. BCs and banshees are expensive D-:
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On April 06 2011 23:30 statikg wrote:
I'm not sure you invented this strategy enough to have written it up with your name, I wrote up basically exactly the same BO a few weeks ago except subtract the medivac which granted adds additional harass ability but slows the BC. If you cut a couple hellions I think you could fit an expansion into this strategy to make it more long term viable.
If you watched my latest replay vs isospeedrix, you would know.
-pride
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On April 06 2011 23:35 uSnAmplified wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 23:30 statikg wrote:
I'm not sure you invented this strategy enough to have written it up with your name, I wrote up basically exactly the same BO a few weeks ago except subtract the medivac which granted adds additional harass ability but slows the BC. If you cut a couple hellions I think you could fit an expansion into this strategy to make it more long term viable. Its nothing new i used to do a build like this as a joke, but with BC Buff it is now actually viable because it catches people off gaurd. I dont think any strategy post with a rough BO should be named after anybody honestly, it just gets annoying when i read the strategy forum and everybody does some random BO that they got to work and names it "X randoms crazy build".
If you're annoyed.. don't spam my spot..
thanks and bye
-pride
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On April 06 2011 23:40 Xakta wrote:
I saw you do this yesterday against ROOTCatZ via his Stream. He was able to hold it off, but it was darn close. A clear transition to two bases or lower tech is missing, after it failed against him it seemed you had no recourse. BCs and banshees are expensive D-:
yea, that's why 1 base bc won't cut it. infestor just owns my scvs and marines I'm trying to expand while the bcs harass is going on.. So far with my latest replay of isospeedrix.. worked out well ..
-pride
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On April 06 2011 23:43 huytruong742 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 23:35 uSnAmplified wrote:On April 06 2011 23:30 statikg wrote:
I'm not sure you invented this strategy enough to have written it up with your name, I wrote up basically exactly the same BO a few weeks ago except subtract the medivac which granted adds additional harass ability but slows the BC. If you cut a couple hellions I think you could fit an expansion into this strategy to make it more long term viable. Its nothing new i used to do a build like this as a joke, but with BC Buff it is now actually viable because it catches people off gaurd. I dont think any strategy post with a rough BO should be named after anybody honestly, it just gets annoying when i read the strategy forum and everybody does some random BO that they got to work and names it "X randoms crazy build". If you're annoyed.. don't spam my spot.. thanks and bye -pride You just made three posts all within the same three minutes, when you could have you know made one post and responded to all three, thats spamming.
Criticizing you for having having a badly written original post, with a rough build order, no transitions or any gameplan other then hope i killed him with my BCs, then sticking in some random ladder replays where you managed to beat someone with it once is not spamming.
yea i get annoyed when people do some cheesy build and win four games, then name it after themselves and make a post about it. If you have a problem with that put some effort with your post and stop spamming because you come across as really stupid.
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All of the haters of the OP and the poster obviously haven't read the names "ROOTSlush" and "ROOTDestiny" seeing as they're fucking amazing players, and even fluke wins off of them make this build totally legit in any sane person's mind! Remember, the BC is the new Wraith!
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I'm a mid masters level terran and I actually tried this build on ladder twice, both were very strong but were very very weak to counter attacks. Similar to Pride, I open with a reactor helion harass and tech up to 2 starports with tech on 1 base, but when the zerg sees the push coming at around 9-10 minutes with BC, banshee, a few marines and helions, my base is left relatively free to counter attacks due to the lack of units teching to BCs. It just seems very all in'y to me....perhaps if an early expand is incorporated BCs could be better used as port of a more midgame composition?
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On April 07 2011 02:08 RaE21 wrote:
I'm a mid masters level terran and I actually tried this build on ladder twice, both were very strong but were very very weak to counter attacks. Similar to Pride, I open with a reactor helion harass and tech up to 2 starports with tech on 1 base, but when the zerg sees the push coming at around 9-10 minutes with BC, banshee, a few marines and helions, my base is left relatively free to counter attacks due to the lack of units teching to BCs. It just seems very all in'y to me....perhaps if an early expand is incorporated BCs could be better used as port of a more midgame composition?
reactor helion harass gives too much away IMO. zergs always expect banshees to follow. I dont think pride's build includes a reactor.
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On April 06 2011 20:21 huytruong742 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 20:14 padfoota wrote:
Watched both ROOT replays.
I've been doing the blueflame hellion poke/harrass into marauder hellion stim push, and I must thank you guys for introducing the 3h8m1med build and showed it to me. I am in awe. I have done (LOVED) 3 hellion drops and can do the timing perfectly, but Ive never brought my marines along for the fun yet.
I watched the replays and I have to say my first impression is that Pride does not have the best control in any sense. But this is not against him. This is a strategy game, but even though we put a lot of emphasis on control, the "enough" amount of control with a good strategy is always a lovely way to win. Watching the replays made me know just how good this build can be with any mid/top dia level control but with a very strong strategy with it.
Im interested if Pride has anymore of these unconventional but extremely effective build that doesnt require a ton of control, and is here really to add more flavor to the game, and put more emphasis on the "fun" (Not for the zerg player tho o_O, but for me seeing BCs no matter what race Im playing always puts a smile in my heart.) Hmmm.. which one was bad control? i would like to know, so that i could improved. I like micro intense builds where the user has to have a decent amount of control, but uh... i can't think of any that is mega fun and mega gimmicky other than raven timing auto-turret push. Hmm.. i should do a strat on that ^__^ -Pride
I've actually been thinking a lot on a raven auto-turret timing push. The key is getting 3 auto-turrets to wall off his ramp. Lings take forever to kill them, and if you can elevator in a couple of scv's to repair, 8 marines, and 3 hellions, you can do a lot of damage with half of his drones trapped in his main.
The problem is having enough energy for 3 turrets. You need 2 ravens, and you have to wait about 88 seconds from when the first one pops to when you reach his base.
Concerning the BC rush. After watching those replays I really think that it was the marine/hellion/medivac pushes that won the game, not so much the BC's.
I do think that BC's are a much better answer to mutas than thors. They have the same movement speed, but don't get caught up on buildings. They can be used to safely secure an expo by escorting a CC and scv's while turrets are being set up. They are even decent in provoking mass corruptor spam, which means fewer mutas and banelings. If there is a spire up, and the zerg does make a lot of corruptors, you won't be able to push far from your turrets until you have a sufficient viking/raven/BC count to handle the corruptors. In order to reach that point you have to create safe zones with PF's and turrets that you can use as staging areas for drops / raven harass / more expos.
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Ya you should update your post (and thread title) saying its a TvZ strat
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man good job dude! im really like this strat, have u experimented with possibly using it against other races to see how it works? I know therocrafters here are a bunch of fuckin know it alls, but I am now a believer I was a believer even after watching your first post. A lot of haters here, and the funny thing is i bet all the zerg players would lose to this strat if they didnt know who u were and played u for the first time. Maybe if they knew exactly what uw ere doing and because you told them exactly what u were doing, maybe then they would have a chance.
But for shits and giggles u should experiment to see how this works against tvt and tvp. I am very curious, i would try it but i have this strat no where near masterd like the way you do.
i notice get an expansion and some times u dont, how do you determine when u want to do this, sometimes u open 1-1-1 sometimes 2 rax FE.... what is the most common opening u do, and how do u know or when do u decide what opening u want to do.
Also, you only make marines for the first intial push then stop marine production and hellion production?
Save your resources for the BC and banshees after?
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haha nvm I totally watfched wayyy to many replays today.... and got your strat messed up with another one.
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You beat zelniq like all other zerg ragers who bm and never gg because they got owned by one base all in. Can't believe why that guy is even a moderator on the forums here.
Anways I think it would be a good idea to try as hard as possible to keep that first medivac alive so later on in the game you can scout with it all the overlord positions to later snipe them if initial harass fails. I've been thinking to modify your build by opening with a reactored rax for more marines if your oppponent went roach heavy and then you can then swap to factory later for hellions. Also I think its a good idea to also as soon as your starport finishes to float on the reactor and get 1 viking and medivac simultaneously. The viking is useful for sniping overlords.
With viking killing overlord and medivac with marines killing another overlord its really devastating.
If you manage to kill 2 overlords before 8 minute mark its super devastating and probably autowin without needing to use all your scvs for the kill.
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It's all very herp-derp. One base BC is just facepalm.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Wow, just watched the replay against slush, and i'm so surprised that this works against good players. I might experiment with BCs in TvZ since I'm getting sick of marine vs banelings.
Thanks for this!
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This build makes me want to play terran so bad.
It makes no sense as to why it works, but it just does. Wow.
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I just watched 4 of the replays (vs Destiny, Slush, Zelniq, and Ret), and I must say that this build looks amazing! I really want to play Terran now
Your first push doesn't really seem to matter if it does damage, it's just all about forcing roaches and it comes at a great time as it seems to usually delay their lair slightly against an early expo zerg (like there's any other kind), and if nothing else it uses lots of their gas and larva on units that will be useless against air. The BC is just so hard for them to kill after that, and reinforcing with banshees is just brilliant, and you seem protected against the inevitable all in with all of the marines and hellions you mass up in your main while the BC/Banshee attack is going on. I've been wanting to learn a second race for awhile now, and this may just be the inspiration i need to try it, thanks for posting such an epic build.
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If I'm not mistaken, the replay vs ROOTSlush was actually slush's first loss at the start of the season. can't wait to give this strat a go this weekend. BCS are so resilient. Should prove to be a tough composition for zerg to hold.
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Has anyone made VODs of this build?
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Update the OP with an actual BO or else I'm going to close this.
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Realistically he does have a BO in there. It's more how Day[9] says you should do it though, with things like factory at 100 gas, starport at 100% factory, attack when the first medivac finishes (and he states what units you should have and what to bring). It's much more useful than everything being set in stone at certain food points, and having all the great replays allows you to see some different ways you can respond with the build to different situations/scouting intel.
He himself sometimes goes destiny cloud fist for his inital attack into BC/Banshee follow up, sometimes takes an expo behind the rine hellion medivac pressure, and transitions into 3 port bc/banshee with more barracks at home for defense/follow up, sometimes he pulls all his scv's and all in's. There are other variations from the reps, he did state in there that depending it can go one of 10 ways and what those are. Also he responded quite quickly and often to the peeps on this thread, and has a tonne of reps. Give credit where it's due.
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On April 08 2011 14:54 Vauld wrote:
Realistically he does have a BO in there. It's more how Day[9] says you should do it though, with things like factory at 100 gas, starport at 100% factory, attack when the first medivac finishes (and he states what units you should have and what to bring). It's much more useful than everything being set in stone at certain food points, and having all the great replays allows you to see some different ways you can respond with the build to different situations/scouting intel.
He himself sometimes goes destiny cloud fist for his inital attack into BC/Banshee follow up, sometimes takes an expo behind the rine hellion medivac pressure, and transitions into 3 port bc/banshee with more barracks at home for defense/follow up, sometimes he pulls all his scv's and all in's. There are other variations from the reps, he did state in there that depending it can go one of 10 ways and what those are. Also he responded quite quickly and often to the peeps on this thread, and has a tonne of reps. Give credit where it's due.
If he has the time to spam this thread with posts quoting posts he just posted, he has time to make a decent OP. You say he has a lot of variations. Why are none of them covered in the OP? He meant for this to be a guide, but it currently doesn't meet guide standards.
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holy saracen no need to powertrip, this thread has been very beneficial to me. I have learnd a lot from it. Why take it down, what if the OP isnt that good at making a detailed post, there is no need to put that kind of pressure on a person who is shareing his strat with us, you know, he didnt have to share this with us, he did it out of the kindness of his heart. PLease stop power trippin. I suppose this is gunna be my ban, oh well Ill make another accound. NBD
User was banned for this post.
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Hehe pride one day I will get your rush down right! Think my problem was i got a banshee from the tech labbed port first.
And if threads/posts like this from top 200 people aren't satisfactory, what is? Incontrol yelling "GETSOME?" O_O
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I have been doing some tvp BC rush on ladder recently and I find it to be very effective. I will add in a terran vs protoss strat for BC rush as soon as i figure out the BO for it. Stay tuned!
Here are some tvp bc rush replays though.. enjoys!
(mayanwarrior)
Phoenix open
(ToTheSky)
Void Rays Open
(Norm)
1 gate robo
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Since I've played Pride a couple times just now doing this build as a toss, I've noted a couple things. 3 gate VR pushes can work extremely well. It seems that hes also decided a quick viking might alleviate some of the issues to deal with the VR.
Kiting the BC while being repaired my SCV is a good position to be in. The main target are the SCVs. This can be done with proper FF and zealot tanking because of the closeness of his building placements.
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BC rush not only works in tvz, but it also works in tvt. I doubt it would work in tvp unless u backed it up with complete air dominance.
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I'm a long time teamliquid.net reader, first time poster. I've registered to say thanks for sharing this build.
I was mid-diamond, and couldn't get a win against zerg. Now with this my win rate vs zerg is ~ 70% I'm top of my league and hoping to make Masters.
I just hope this build doesn't become popular and that I can continue kicking ass with it!
Thanks Pride! <3
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Hi, vileHawk here
I honestly can't believe that I lost to this, but I did, and it's a tough all-in to fight, I think I played against it very well considering it was my first time seeing the build in action, just Pride executed the follow-up very well.
Though I do feel if I played vs it again I would not have much trouble against it, but for a player seeing it for the first time it's very difficult to beat even if they are very good. Anyway go have a look at Pride's replay vs me I think it should be pretty much sum-up how to do this build and follow it up.
Edit: the game was ZvT
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the build to own zerg, you are invincible with it.
Sorry if I have my doubts that it can work, yes maybe few times until its new, but can't see people winning games too much with it. maybe about 25%.
User was warned for this post
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To those saying it only works if not scouted: Slush straight up sees the Fusion Core with his Overlord and says "..."
Ret also sees the Starport right at the ramp and knows he's 1 basing.
I feel like Hydras would demolish this build, but really, who goes Hydras vs Terran? You could probably transition to blue flame/stim if enough hydras are forced and go win anyways if the Zerg overreacts.
EDIT: Overlord not Queen durrr.
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On April 09 2011 15:34 Curu wrote:
To those saying it only works if not scouted: Slush straight up sees the Fusion Core with his Queen and says "..."
Ret also sees the Starport right at the ramp and knows he's 1 basing.
I feel like Hydras would demolish this build, but really, who goes Hydras vs Terran? You could probably transition to blue flame/stim if enough hydras are forced and go win anyways if the Zerg overreacts.
vilehawk responded with hydra, but it came a little late. Shortly after. thors came and cleaned everything up..
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is it me or this op making you dislike terran players as much as the race itself?
i dont like your forum etiquette sir, this is a TL thread and you shouldn't suggest to TL members that this is your spot. i get it i get it you made the post and so you are going to zone the damn thing like you are teaching us all something? whatever none of this is particularly exciting and im pretty sure if I... (theorycraft your onebase bullshit allin away)....then you lose and go name a tank marine rush after yourself.
i play zerg. ive read every word of this thread and watched the applicable replays. i even considered playing terran and using this garbage just to avoid the new strat forum ban hammer but i just couldnt brong myself to queue as terran.
i would like to suggest the following: you haven't really come up with anything but a weaker attack than the one you modeled this one after.
correct me if i am wrong but you are bringing in 3 helions a small number of marines and medivac and at some point after that asap you assault with bcs for the bm one base win.
what happened to 6 rine 3 helions and a tank followed up by a banshee? isnt this stronger? i play zerg and ive been with with multple iterations of this early 1-1-1 attack and i have to say that yours isnt creative or unique or game changing or anything....its just weaker and leaves you wide open on numerous occasions.
this little thread actually has created a stir on the ladder and quite a few master terran are trying this...most arent all-in ing themselves ( I assume because even subpar players hate how dirty it makes them feel i really dont know) and so i havent even come close to losing to this yet. BECAUSE the holes were so easy to find when i watched your replays that any competent low/high ranked player isnt really going to have problems with your all in garbage more than a few times and so when non top200 master try it they fail and are confused cause no matter how you play this tech rush you are allin from way in the beginning...basically you lose if you get shut down so NO long term playability.
obviously you have some skill and to beat the players you have you have good tactics but i say the strategy is still shit.
have you guys seen my really awesome one base broodlord BO...its awesome basically you make a million lings and 5 macro hatches...send wave after wave of lings to opponent base and after everything is on fire and his army is dead you send 2 broodlords in for the win...i call it smackys broodlord awesome lightening zeus attack rush. there are 10 transitions off of my one base ling opener:
1: 2 roaches
2 2 hydras
3 1 queen
4 2 corruptors (gosu transition against those annoying terran who fly away)
5 2 brrrrroooodlords (smackys ultra fast awesome zeus attack)
6 2 ultras
7 2 lings
8 2 infestors (no gas for energy upgrade)
9 2 drones
10 go eat snack and wait it out...they'll leave when they see all the spines at my one base
(please dont PM me...ive never gone one base zerg anything)
edit: ironic to anyone else that this kid is trying to name a one base all-in with scvs and battlecruisers a PRIDE bc rush...snicker snicker....show me 3 base bc's owning or shit even 2 base and call that the Pride bc rush...call this one cantmacro bc rush
edit2: i read my own post and wouldve banned myself so here goes an attempt at fixing. I stated in the above that i have had a lot of success against people on the ladder doing just this so here is my suggestion for the proper zergy response and scout timing.
issues to consider from experience EArly overseer against terran usually pays for itself a million fold and so do evo chamber (gogo spore crawler move yo if you unburrow derp)
so: if i dont do ANYTHING different from a completely standard (no BO necessary here) game against a masters terran opponent if i overseer scout and catch it then im using spores and getting extra queens (stopping some injects here to save for transfuse because the unit count from terran will be low anyway) in each of the replays you show opponents who responded rather porrly and who can blame them they arent all knowing but with enough experience against air units that can kill you zergs will get better at picking the right response....the earlier attack with helions and marines...idk man i dont die when people do this to me i hold it off with lings and try my best to not be impacted by the harass imo your entire strategy relies on this part of the game and i will be happy to post replays i dont lose to this and a lot of people i know dont lose to this. surely a good number of people will fold to it but that isnt relevant to the discussion. lets assume you near shred me with the first attack and i barely manage to hold on but i have 2 hatches most of my drones and an evo chamber...the bcs are toast...no zerg BO can possibily show how to frame a correct response to someone with lunatic attack timing and cheesy inentions reactively though i beat this on a regular basis by staying alive in the beginning and lolling at your bcs when my lings slingshot across the map and my spores dps while the queens keep them up
im on a laptop ill post a replay to this thread as soon as possible...saracen maybe you can bo3 this guy and see if we all need to stfu about it
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On April 09 2011 21:41 smacky wrote:
is it me or this op making you dislike terran players as much as the race itself?
i dont like your forum etiquette sir, this is a TL thread and you shouldn't suggest to TL members that this is your spot. i get it i get it you made the post and so you are going to zone the damn thing like you are teaching us all something? whatever none of this is particularly exciting and im pretty sure if I... (theorycraft your onebase bullshit allin away)....then you lose and go name a tank marine rush after yourself.
i play zerg. ive read every word of this thread and watched the applicable replays. i even considered playing terran and using this garbage just to avoid the new strat forum ban hammer but i just couldnt brong myself to queue as terran.
i would like to suggest the following: you haven't really come up with anything but a weaker attack than the one you modeled this one after.
correct me if i am wrong but you are bringing in 3 helions a small number of marines and medivac and at some point after that asap you assault with bcs for the bm one base win.
what happened to 6 rine 3 helions and a tank followed up by a banshee? isnt this stronger? i play zerg and ive been with with multple iterations of this early 1-1-1 attack and i have to say that yours isnt creative or unique or game changing or anything....its just weaker and leaves you wide open on numerous occasions.
this little thread actually has created a stir on the ladder and quite a few master terran are trying this...most arent all-in ing themselves ( I assume because even subpar players hate how dirty it makes them feel i really dont know) and so i havent even come close to losing to this yet. BECAUSE the holes were so easy to find when i watched your replays that any competent low/high ranked player isnt really going to have problems with your all in garbage more than a few times and so when non top200 master try it they fail and are confused cause no matter how you play this tech rush you are allin from way in the beginning...basically you lose if you get shut down so NO long term playability.
obviously you have some skill and to beat the players you have you have good tactics but i say the strategy is still shit.
have you guys seen my really awesome one base broodlord BO...its awesome basically you make a million lings and 5 macro hatches...send wave after wave of lings to opponent base and after everything is on fire and his army is dead you send 2 broodlords in for the win...i call it smackys broodlord awesome lightening zeus attack rush. there are 10 transitions off of my one base ling opener:
1: 2 roaches
2 2 hydras
3 1 queen
4 2 corruptors (gosu transition against those annoying terran who fly away)
5 2 brrrrroooodlords (smackys ultra fast awesome zeus attack)
6 2 ultras
7 2 lings
8 2 infestors (no gas for energy upgrade)
9 2 drones
10 go eat snack and wait it out...they'll leave when they see all the spines at my one base
(please dont PM me...ive never gone one base zerg anything)
edit: ironic to anyone else that this kid is trying to name a one base all-in with scvs and battlecruisers a PRIDE bc rush...snicker snicker....show me 3 base bc's owning or shit even 2 base and call that the Pride bc rush...call this one cantmacro bc rush
edit2: i read my own post and wouldve banned myself so here goes an attempt at fixing. I stated in the above that i have had a lot of success against people on the ladder doing just this so here is my suggestion for the proper zergy response and scout timing.
issues to consider from experience EArly overseer against terran usually pays for itself a million fold and so do evo chamber (gogo spore crawler move yo if you unburrow derp)
so: if i dont do ANYTHING different from a completely standard (no BO necessary here) game against a masters terran opponent if i overseer scout and catch it then im using spores and getting extra queens (stopping some injects here to save for transfuse because the unit count from terran will be low anyway) in each of the replays you show opponents who responded rather porrly and who can blame them they arent all knowing but with enough experience against air units that can kill you zergs will get better at picking the right response....the earlier attack with helions and marines...idk man i dont die when people do this to me i hold it off with lings and try my best to not be impacted by the harass imo your entire strategy relies on this part of the game and i will be happy to post replays i dont lose to this and a lot of people i know dont lose to this. surely a good number of people will fold to it but that isnt relevant to the discussion. lets assume you near shred me with the first attack and i barely manage to hold on but i have 2 hatches most of my drones and an evo chamber...the bcs are toast...no zerg BO can possibily show how to frame a correct response to someone with lunatic attack timing and cheesy inentions reactively though i beat this on a regular basis by staying alive in the beginning and lolling at your bcs when my lings slingshot across the map and my spores dps while the queens keep them up
im on a laptop ill post a replay to this thread as soon as possible...saracen maybe you can bo3 this guy and see if we all need to stfu about it
lol, you must be silver league at most... Half the things you said made no sense... Also I never knew that building BC is considered BM one base win.. Hell.. You might as well say, building marines are BM wins.. As far as I'm aware.. You .. yourself.. has been... losing to this strat.. and you're frustrated at the world aka terran.. I would love to see your replays to prove your insignificant reasoning as to why this strat is unsatisfatory to what you consider.. everyone...
oh ya.. You stated you watched the replayed... Obviously you haven't.. There are a couple of 2 base BC rush..
"5 2 brrrrroooodlords (smackys ultra fast awesome zeus attack)" ....humor lol... can't stop laughing ROFL!!!
-Pride
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Lol at last two post.
User was temp banned for this post.
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personal attacks arent necessary. i believe your logic and reasoning for why this works is badly off and a little time will show that its just another flash in the pan. i'll see you on the ladder if you manage to stay high enough.
i dont think you understand my objection to what you are doing. you've come along out of nowhere with some buildy type thing that isnt really anything more than a well managed all in and used this thread to brag about beating some very good players.
there has been no well thought out responses to anything anyone has said they use to help mitigate the effectiveness of this play and i wonder if it isnt you who are frustrated by the fact that it is you who has shown insignificant reasoning as to why this "strategy" (are we calling this a strategy? really?) is winning you games against top tier players. oddly enough i doubt you even realize why this works and what zerg timings are coming in to play.
strategies get named after people because of either well known play styles (adelscott for instance pretty much just gave everyone a reason to double forge for a few games and we see it and we all say "ah that funny face frenchy bastard....oh well") or because they go and do something so awesome that everyone says "i wanna do that MC fake 3 gate exp thing!!" and h'allah you have a named strategy for a well known play, player, or style.
at some point after most recent roach range change my brother calls me and says dude i got a new roach cheese you need to see...it was a pretty normal roach/ling all in and he went something like 27 games straight wins...we laughed our asses off until the forums filled up with thoughtful discussion because herp derp we werent the only zerg playing roaches since the update and a lot of people went big win streaks. we didnt try to name it after ourselves.
the fact is i'm not a silver league player, i havent really ever been and my game knowledge and experience goes back to beta.
i really do hope i see you on the ladder. im not putting it out there on the internets but im gonna msg you on bnet.
ooooooh and i consider your bc shit to be bm because clearly to follow with this attack you opted out of a slightly weaker (yet stronger attack due to timing) that wouldve finished off opponents just the same...if you position yourself to win and roll through with BCs its not a bc win its a bc bm dipshit
Edit: i do lose a fair amount to both terran and protoss and zerg for that matter but i win just the same and last time i looked i hold my own pretty well. i am far from frustrated over the match ups atm....wait until roach broodlord play get more popular against protoss and infestor hydra against shit like bcs off 2-3 base terran you can switch to zerg and name those strats too bro
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On April 09 2011 23:28 smacky wrote:
personal attacks arent necessary. i believe your logic and reasoning for why this works is badly off and a little time will show that its just another flash in the pan. i'll see you on the ladder if you manage to stay high enough.
i dont think you understand my objection to what you are doing. you've come along out of nowhere with some buildy type thing that isnt really anything more than a well managed all in and used this thread to brag about beating some very good players.
there has been no well thought out responses to anything anyone has said they use to help mitigate the effectiveness of this play and i wonder if it isnt you who are frustrated by the fact that it is you who has shown insignificant reasoning as to why this "strategy" (are we calling this a strategy? really?) is winning you games against top tier players. oddly enough i doubt you even realize why this works and what zerg timings are coming in to play.
strategies get named after people because of either well known play styles (adelscott for instance pretty much just gave everyone a reason to double forge for a few games and we see it and we all say "ah that funny face frenchy bastard....oh well") or because they go and do something so awesome that everyone says "i wanna do that MC fake 3 gate exp thing!!" and h'allah you have a named strategy for a well known play, player, or style.
at some point after most recent roach range change my brother calls me and says dude i got a new roach cheese you need to see...it was a pretty normal roach/ling all in and he went something like 27 games straight wins...we laughed our asses off until the forums filled up with thoughtful discussion because herp derp we werent the only zerg playing roaches since the update and a lot of people went big win streaks. we didnt try to name it after ourselves.
the fact is i'm not a silver league player, i havent really ever been and my game knowledge and experience goes back to beta.
i really do hope i see you on the ladder. im not putting it out there on the internets but im gonna msg you on bnet.
ooooooh and i consider your bc shit to be bm because clearly to follow with this attack you opted out of a slightly weaker (yet stronger attack due to timing) that wouldve finished off opponents just the same...if you position yourself to win and roll through with BCs its not a bc win its a bc bm dipshit
Edit: i do lose a fair amount to both terran and protoss and zerg for that matter but i win just the same and last time i looked i hold my own pretty well. i am far from frustrated over the match ups atm....wait until roach broodlord play get more popular against protoss and infestor hydra against shit like bcs off 2-3 base terran you can switch to zerg and name those strats too bro
replays shows clearly that.. the bcs.. did.. amazing dmg..
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wtf...are...you.. talking about? i....didnt say the bcs...didnt do...dmg.
i said you are a shit player
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Whenever someone attaches their name to a build, or calls themselves "pro", it turns into a massive flame war on this forum, which I think is sad and detracts from the quality of the initial post.
So what if he put his name on it? I sure haven't seen this build before.
So what if he's being defensive? He's being attacked by people who clearly don't know what they are talking about and have never faced this build and probably haven't watched the replays.
This build has been easy for me to understand, and has improved my TvZ out of this world.
In my experience facing high diamond/low masters, I have only lost when:
1. I micro badly and lose all the units of my inital push cheaply
2. The opponent goes fastish lair -> spire. I should be able to punish this opening with my initial push but my multitask often isnt good enough.
Stop flamming the guy. He's obviously a good player and is sharing his knowledge with the community. It just makes you look like another "woe is me" butthurt zerg that complains about every single thing.
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Wow so much hate in this thread.
Anyway, I've also been playing with BCs in TvZ quite a bit, and they can be very effective. I usually use them if my zerg opponent fails to stop a 2 rax bunker rush on Shakuras. I use the BCs after using 2-4 banshees off 2 port. My goal is to keep the zerg on low gas income to prevent them from just spawning some absurd number of hydras or corruptors as soon as they know what's up.
I do this at a decently high masters level, more like top 300 than top 200.
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On April 09 2011 23:28 smacky wrote:
personal attacks arent necessary. i believe your logic and reasoning for why this works is badly off and a little time will show that its just another flash in the pan. i'll see you on the ladder if you manage to stay high enough.
i dont think you understand my objection to what you are doing. you've come along out of nowhere with some buildy type thing that isnt really anything more than a well managed all in and used this thread to brag about beating some very good players.
there has been no well thought out responses to anything anyone has said they use to help mitigate the effectiveness of this play and i wonder if it isnt you who are frustrated by the fact that it is you who has shown insignificant reasoning as to why this "strategy" (are we calling this a strategy? really?) is winning you games against top tier players. oddly enough i doubt you even realize why this works and what zerg timings are coming in to play.
strategies get named after people because of either well known play styles (adelscott for instance pretty much just gave everyone a reason to double forge for a few games and we see it and we all say "ah that funny face frenchy bastard....oh well") or because they go and do something so awesome that everyone says "i wanna do that MC fake 3 gate exp thing!!" and h'allah you have a named strategy for a well known play, player, or style.
at some point after most recent roach range change my brother calls me and says dude i got a new roach cheese you need to see...it was a pretty normal roach/ling all in and he went something like 27 games straight wins...we laughed our asses off until the forums filled up with thoughtful discussion because herp derp we werent the only zerg playing roaches since the update and a lot of people went big win streaks. we didnt try to name it after ourselves.
the fact is i'm not a silver league player, i havent really ever been and my game knowledge and experience goes back to beta.
i really do hope i see you on the ladder. im not putting it out there on the internets but im gonna msg you on bnet.
ooooooh and i consider your bc shit to be bm because clearly to follow with this attack you opted out of a slightly weaker (yet stronger attack due to timing) that wouldve finished off opponents just the same...if you position yourself to win and roll through with BCs its not a bc win its a bc bm dipshit
Edit: i do lose a fair amount to both terran and protoss and zerg for that matter but i win just the same and last time i looked i hold my own pretty well. i am far from frustrated over the match ups atm....wait until roach broodlord play get more popular against protoss and infestor hydra against shit like bcs off 2-3 base terran you can switch to zerg and name those strats too bro
"H'allah" is perhaps the most creative way to fail at spelling voilà I've ever witnessed. Also calling someone a dipshit whilst discussing what is or is not BM is pretty obliviously hypocritical.
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i wasnt trying to spell voila....i was trying to spell h'allah....as in 'thank God'.....it is slang.
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the built is quite nice in PvT
on long distance position
thx for sharing
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EPT
