EPTIMneverLosira Analysis (GSTL Spoilers) - Page 3
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Lunaro
Canada77 Posts
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
On March 25 2011 03:17 HowSoOnIsNow wrote: Exactly. I just don't understand the gist of the All in definition anymore. What's next, 5 base all in..... an all in is defined loosely in Starcraft as a main attack without a steadily increasing economy behind it to allow for recovery in case of failure. This is most apparent in a 6pool and a MarineSCV all in. It also happens when you do things like cut worker production (4/6 gate), amass slow build time units such as thors, proxy your production in/near your opponents base, etc... It's less that the term is overused and more to do that the strategy is overused. For example, one can say "send out scouting worker" is an overused term, but that doesn't mean it's inaccurate. | ||
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HowSoOnIsNow
Canada480 Posts
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bramapanzer
83 Posts
On March 25 2011 03:58 HowSoOnIsNow wrote: Well, then, any decision to make a push, a serious attack could be called an all in because you stop your focus on an economical point of view. To me, that build is closer to an Eh An timing than anything else, if and only if, you can recover with a real transition afterward. But that's just my point of view. Most players continue to macro while they push; Lower levels may not have APM/Multitasking to do this. This makes their regular pushes quite all-inish and at least in silver; if you can defend a push you usually win outright with a counter-push because of the lack of macroing during the attack. There is no "Starcraft Dictionary" so popular terms like cheese, all-in, macro, micro will all have slightly different meanings to each person. There is no correct answer; because there is no authoritative entity to make such a decision. | ||
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HowSoOnIsNow
Canada480 Posts
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On March 24 2011 16:47 lorkac wrote: Lorkac, I tend to agree with some of what you're saying but disagree quite strongly with some other things. Me not wanting to sac 3-4 of my drones is not "me being lazy", but is simply me not wanting to sac 3-4 of my first 15 drones to get a scout off. That's simply not worth it. If they have a stalker out they are literally all going to die.You not understanding how costly it is for terran to use scans as scouting tech shows how much you don't understand terran. You also not knowing that Observers forces Protoss into a very specific tech path that reduces their flexibility shows you don't understand protoss. In fact, Overseer is the only fast moving detector that is very good at both scouting and base defense (against cloak). L2use your race. However, I do the gas cancel/rebuild thing and then pull the drone to scout. If they are attacking the extractor I can get another drone in the front, or sneak an overlord in the side. If they aren't attacking the gas then I can cancel and get the scout off that way, so yes, this is a good idea for creative scouting. I also like your few zerglings + a drone to go through the zealot idea. So that said, I think scouting for Z is really mostly problematic when playing against Terran on a 4-player map. If you scout the T last (or 2nd on a big map), he will have his wall-off already complete, or have 1-2 marines that can kill your drone before it gets into his base. By the time an overlord can make it to that side of the map, it may either be already too late (attack incoming), or he will have enough marines to patrol the periphery of his base and prevent a sacced OL from seeing anything. This is problematic b/c there are a large variety of 1-base timing attacks Terran can do that may require different unit compositions. That said, I think the reason why this is relevant is that Losira's style is safe against pretty much all timing pushes (aside from an unscouted 2-port banshee), in which his roach/ling/bling force can either kill the 1-base push or put pressure if Terran has actually been planning an expo. | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
sorry for the broad generalization. The 3-4 drone tactic is really too much. My main point was tat it's possible. Vs Terran Zerg scouting is the most difficult. I know from experience since I normally did the extractor shenanigans as well as saccing 2-3 overlords just to make sure he web banshee and not tanks. I understand the pain all too well. I've even tried roach burrow just to scout their main in the midgame before turrets. (pretty useless since the metagame forces Terran to build turrets spire or no) I practiced having 3 control groups of zerglings. One at the bottom of his ramp, one farther away, am one group hidden to make a scouting runby should Terran get past both my first two groups letting me know that the supply depot was down. I've done baneling busts without a lot of lings since I simply wanted to them to start havoc production facilities as their wall so that I could scout them better. I've tried a LOT of ways to scout. It's hard. But it isn't impossible. I agree with you. | ||
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Wren
United States745 Posts
Drone + zergling to scout the walled protoss. Send the zergling to attack the zealot and do the mining trick to get the drone through the battle. Your timing has to be pretty good, the zergling will be dead fast, but that's a sacrifice that's worth the information. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
On March 25 2011 05:56 Wren wrote: Just saw an amazing little trick, and I'm pretty sure I'm not spoiling anything to say it. Drone + zergling to scout the walled protoss. Send the zergling to attack the zealot and do the mining trick to get the drone through the battle. Your timing has to be pretty good, the zergling will be dead fast, but that's a sacrifice that's worth the information. If the protoss has good micro, with 1 stalker 1 zealot, he will kill the drone before it gets to see anything. So you need to sacrifice at least 2 drones and a ling. But its also still quite risky. if hes going for something like straight up stargate, that can be worth it. But for gateways, well if you wait too long, he has too many units, and the cute trick cant get you through. But if you go in right away, then its too early, and the toss can still decide to cancel a gateway, or stop probe production and add on another one. | ||
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Wren
United States745 Posts
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morimacil
France921 Posts
drone runs around in circles stalker/sentry arrives and kills drone structures go down more units are made. Good protoss do not leave "a fairly large gap beteen zealot and second unit", especially in tech builds, since they want to get rid of the scouting drone asap. After that first stalker comes out, and kills your drone, you have about 20 seconds where you could use a ling to sneak 2 drones in so one survives and can see what hes up to. After those 20 seconds are up, another unit pops out of the initial gateway, and that wont work anymore. Since its such a small gap in time, canceling a gateway at that point (if only to remake it 10 seconds later) is not that big of a deal at all. | ||
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tymt
Sweden293 Posts
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Wren
United States745 Posts
In any game, with any species, you can have sudden and secret tech switches or canceled buildings, that's just going to have to be a mind game you play with your opponent. The point is that there's now revealed a solid way to get a scout through the protoss wall. EDIT: don't worry about it tymt, there's still plenty of reason to watch the GSTL. | ||
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confusedcrib
United States1307 Posts
On March 25 2011 07:45 tymt wrote: gee thanks for adding the spoiler alert after your spoiler, really. At this point this kind of reply is ridiculous, you don't even know what match with IM in it I'm talking about. | ||
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