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IMneverLosira Analysis (GSTL Spoilers) - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Lunaro
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada77 Posts
March 24 2011 18:23 GMT
#41
:D Next is Min's all in by taking 9 bases :D
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
March 24 2011 18:26 GMT
#42
On March 25 2011 03:17 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2011 00:54 SC2-Dethklok wrote:
Who are these people saying all Losira did was 2 base all ins in those games?

Game 1 ends around 8 minutes Losira on 2 base his opp on 1 It would be silly of Losira to be on 3 bases at this point given his opp doing a 1 base all in.

Game 2 ends with Losira haveing 4 bases 3 that are capable of mining after crushing marine/tank attacks over and over again.

Game 3 ends with Losira on 3 bases after defending a 5gate robo.

Game 4 ends with Losira on 2 base because he scouts his opp doing a Ling all in

Losiras play was sick to say the least and it showed a lot of tools that zerg players dont utilize enough I dont think anyone really thinks hes the best zerg in the world ATM but the tactics he used along with some pretty solid Macro is something a lot of zerg players should try to emulate. I think if there is one thing weve learned from July zerg and Losira its that Zerg most certainly can macro while being aggressive and when the opportunity presents itself you can switch to non stop army production (ALL IN) You just have to pick the right moment.


Exactly. I just don't understand the gist of the All in definition anymore. What's next, 5 base all in.....



an all in is defined loosely in Starcraft as a main attack without a steadily increasing economy behind it to allow for recovery in case of failure.

This is most apparent in a 6pool and a MarineSCV all in. It also happens when you do things like cut worker production (4/6 gate), amass slow build time units such as thors, proxy your production in/near your opponents base, etc...

It's less that the term is overused and more to do that the strategy is overused. For example, one can say "send out scouting worker" is an overused term, but that doesn't mean it's inaccurate.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
HowSoOnIsNow
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada480 Posts
March 24 2011 18:58 GMT
#43
Well, then, any decision to make a push, a serious attack could be called an all in because you stop your focus on an economical point of view. To me, that build is closer to an Eh An timing than anything else, if and only if, you can recover with a real transition afterward. But that's just my point of view.
Real mens play Zerg.. Startale fighting.
bramapanzer
Profile Joined December 2010
83 Posts
March 24 2011 19:28 GMT
#44
On March 25 2011 03:58 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:
Well, then, any decision to make a push, a serious attack could be called an all in because you stop your focus on an economical point of view. To me, that build is closer to an Eh An timing than anything else, if and only if, you can recover with a real transition afterward. But that's just my point of view.


Most players continue to macro while they push; Lower levels may not have APM/Multitasking to do this. This makes their regular pushes quite all-inish and at least in silver; if you can defend a push you usually win outright with a counter-push because of the lack of macroing during the attack.

There is no "Starcraft Dictionary" so popular terms like cheese, all-in, macro, micro will all have slightly different meanings to each person. There is no correct answer; because there is no authoritative entity to make such a decision.
HowSoOnIsNow
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada480 Posts
March 24 2011 19:41 GMT
#45
Kim Carrier is. XD
Real mens play Zerg.. Startale fighting.
JDub
Profile Joined December 2010
United States976 Posts
March 24 2011 19:55 GMT
#46
On March 24 2011 16:47 lorkac wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 24 2011 16:37 Wren wrote:
On March 24 2011 16:32 lorkac wrote:
Scan:Changeling
Observer:Overseer

I don't see your point.

You not wanting to send more than one drone is just you being lazy not wanting to use the tools at your disposal.

lolololololol

And finally, you've made it crystal clear that you don't get it.


You not understanding how costly it is for terran to use scans as scouting tech shows how much you don't understand terran.

You also not knowing that Observers forces Protoss into a very specific tech path that reduces their flexibility shows you don't understand protoss.

In fact, Overseer is the only fast moving detector that is very good at both scouting and base defense (against cloak).

L2use your race.
Lorkac, I tend to agree with some of what you're saying but disagree quite strongly with some other things. Me not wanting to sac 3-4 of my drones is not "me being lazy", but is simply me not wanting to sac 3-4 of my first 15 drones to get a scout off. That's simply not worth it. If they have a stalker out they are literally all going to die.

However, I do the gas cancel/rebuild thing and then pull the drone to scout. If they are attacking the extractor I can get another drone in the front, or sneak an overlord in the side. If they aren't attacking the gas then I can cancel and get the scout off that way, so yes, this is a good idea for creative scouting. I also like your few zerglings + a drone to go through the zealot idea.

So that said, I think scouting for Z is really mostly problematic when playing against Terran on a 4-player map. If you scout the T last (or 2nd on a big map), he will have his wall-off already complete, or have 1-2 marines that can kill your drone before it gets into his base. By the time an overlord can make it to that side of the map, it may either be already too late (attack incoming), or he will have enough marines to patrol the periphery of his base and prevent a sacced OL from seeing anything. This is problematic b/c there are a large variety of 1-base timing attacks Terran can do that may require different unit compositions.

That said, I think the reason why this is relevant is that Losira's style is safe against pretty much all timing pushes (aside from an unscouted 2-port banshee), in which his roach/ling/bling force can either kill the 1-base push or put pressure if Terran has actually been planning an expo.
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
March 24 2011 20:40 GMT
#47
@jdub

sorry for the broad generalization. The 3-4 drone tactic is really too much. My main point was tat it's possible.

Vs Terran Zerg scouting is the most difficult. I know from experience since I normally did the extractor shenanigans as well as saccing 2-3 overlords just to make sure he web banshee and not tanks. I understand the pain all too well.

I've even tried roach burrow just to scout their main in the midgame before turrets. (pretty useless since the metagame forces Terran to build turrets spire or no)

I practiced having 3 control groups of zerglings. One at the bottom of his ramp, one farther away, am one group hidden to make a scouting runby should Terran get past both my first two groups letting me know that the supply depot was down.

I've done baneling busts without a lot of lings since I simply wanted to them to start havoc production facilities as their wall so that I could scout them better.

I've tried a LOT of ways to scout. It's hard. But it isn't impossible. I agree with you.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
Wren
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States745 Posts
March 24 2011 20:56 GMT
#48
Just saw an amazing little trick, and I'm pretty sure I'm not spoiling anything to say it.

Drone + zergling to scout the walled protoss. Send the zergling to attack the zealot and do the mining trick to get the drone through the battle. Your timing has to be pretty good, the zergling will be dead fast, but that's a sacrifice that's worth the information.
We're here! We're queer! We don't want any more bears!
morimacil
Profile Joined March 2010
France921 Posts
March 24 2011 22:01 GMT
#49
On March 25 2011 05:56 Wren wrote:
Just saw an amazing little trick, and I'm pretty sure I'm not spoiling anything to say it.

Drone + zergling to scout the walled protoss. Send the zergling to attack the zealot and do the mining trick to get the drone through the battle. Your timing has to be pretty good, the zergling will be dead fast, but that's a sacrifice that's worth the information.

If the protoss has good micro, with 1 stalker 1 zealot, he will kill the drone before it gets to see anything. So you need to sacrifice at least 2 drones and a ling.

But its also still quite risky. if hes going for something like straight up stargate, that can be worth it.
But for gateways, well if you wait too long, he has too many units, and the cute trick cant get you through. But if you go in right away, then its too early, and the toss can still decide to cancel a gateway, or stop probe production and add on another one.
Wren
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States745 Posts
March 24 2011 22:07 GMT
#50
This is the first time I've significantly disagreed with you. Protoss timings are fairly regular, and there's a fairly large gap between zealot and second unit in most tech builds. If there's a lot of units when you're not expecting them, that tells you something too.
We're here! We're queer! We don't want any more bears!
morimacil
Profile Joined March 2010
France921 Posts
March 24 2011 22:35 GMT
#51
You scout with a drone.
drone runs around in circles
stalker/sentry arrives and kills drone
structures go down
more units are made.

Good protoss do not leave "a fairly large gap beteen zealot and second unit", especially in tech builds, since they want to get rid of the scouting drone asap.
After that first stalker comes out, and kills your drone, you have about 20 seconds where you could use a ling to sneak 2 drones in so one survives and can see what hes up to. After those 20 seconds are up, another unit pops out of the initial gateway, and that wont work anymore.
Since its such a small gap in time, canceling a gateway at that point (if only to remake it 10 seconds later) is not that big of a deal at all.
tymt
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden293 Posts
March 24 2011 22:45 GMT
#52
gee thanks for adding the spoiler alert after your spoiler, really.
Wren
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States745 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-24 22:49:58
March 24 2011 22:48 GMT
#53
The difference between a stalker or sentry as the second unit, especially if you can get a look at the infrastructure in the base (# of gates, what's being chronoboosted, gases, early tech), can be enough to tell you the current path.

In any game, with any species, you can have sudden and secret tech switches or canceled buildings, that's just going to have to be a mind game you play with your opponent.

The point is that there's now revealed a solid way to get a scout through the protoss wall.

EDIT: don't worry about it tymt, there's still plenty of reason to watch the GSTL.
We're here! We're queer! We don't want any more bears!
confusedcrib
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1307 Posts
March 24 2011 23:27 GMT
#54
On March 25 2011 07:45 tymt wrote:
gee thanks for adding the spoiler alert after your spoiler, really.

At this point this kind of reply is ridiculous, you don't even know what match with IM in it I'm talking about.
I'm a writer for TeamLiquid, you've probably heard of me
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