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Inspired by Losira's performance in the GSTL, I thought I would do an analysis of the games involved and how Losira crushed everything thrown at him with his beautiful scouting and timing. Keep in mind that there is a TL;DR summary at the bottom for those who do not enjoy reading  Also, this is primarily from the Zerg perspective, as it is the most to learn from as Losira was all inned pretty much every game.
Game One
+ Show Spoiler +IMLosira opens with a hatch first build against his opponent ZeNEXIcecream, interestingly he follows with a quick gas before pool allowing him to get zergling speed very quickly (as most Zergs who hatch first get the gas around the same time as their pool, Losira is interesting in that he gets it significantly faster). Losira pumps just enough Zerglings to feel safe when his hatch completes and goes pure drone while using his overlord to scout a barracks with a tech lab, after scouting that the overlord backs off. Then with those few initial Zerglings, Losira manages to scout 2 hellions coming across the map and begins pumping non stop zerglings and making a spine crawler while moving the overlord further into the base to detect what is coming next. When the overlord sees the SCVs coming Losira builds two more spine crawlers immediately, continues pumping Zerglings while preparing for to initiate a zergling counter attack to buy time/insure the victory over his opponent's defenseless main. Losira holds the push at his front with a beautiful zergling surround and the counter attack insures that his opponent must gg.
How he did it
+ Show Spoiler +Losira's win this game came down to some clutch scouting as well impeccable timing with his decision making. He pumps just enough zerglings at the beginning to stop any cutesy sort of harass that might come out of terran (i.e. two rax, reactor hellion) and then drones up while scouting. Losira in all of his games has an attitude of scouting at all costs, but in this game he gets very lucky in that his overlord manages to spot everything. What is interesting is that upon seeing the tech lab on the barracks he is still droning but then begins his constant zergling production when he sees the hellions moving across the map, as this is the tell that his opponent has a factory up and forces his opponent into a limited set of options. A tech lab on a barracks and a factory that has made two hellions at a timing not indicating blue flame can really only mean a maurader hellion all in, I believe that Losira figures this out and that is why he begins constant zergling build up. When he sees the SCVs move out across the map he immediatley begins two spine crawlers and with a stroke of genius counter attacks. The counter attack at that moment was genius because it forces his opponent into two options both forcing Losira to win:
Either force the army to come back to deal with it, buying the extra seconds for Losira's spine crawlers and zergling build up
or
Force this to be an all in no matter how much damage it does, as long as Losira has any drones left, he will win.
The latter of those two options happens and Losira wins through great scouting even when he is not directly seeing his opponent's buildings, and great decision making. After this match Zergs have little reason to lose to this marauder hellion all in again.
Game Two
+ Show Spoiler +IMLosira does the same opening as last game while his opponent 1 rax fast expands. Losira is very careful with his Overlord scouting trying to see as much of his opponents base as he can without giving away the overlord. Losira then makes the interesting decision to pumps lings upon seeing the low ground bunker. He then see the expansion and goes back to making drones while doing some harassment with his zerglings. Losira gets an Early 3rd queen, and begins +1 melee, only then beginning his lair. In the mean time ZeNEX Hack begins two factories, indicating mech. Losira manages to hold the blue flame hellion harass without losing too much (although this is also due to his ling harass early on doing damage putting the harassment damage at about even). Losira begins making lings at 9:45 (I only mention the game time because I honestly cannot tell why without the replay) and checks to see if there is any damage that can be done with his higher ling count. After doing a little more harassment damage he switches back to drones and begins his spire.
At this point Hack's lack of medivacs and lack of third is beginning to signify a marine tank 2 base all in. Losira miss reads his opponents force and attacks with zerglings and a couple roaches and gets devastated - things are not looking good for Losira. Losira than uses some lings to stop reinforcements and potentially counter attack his opponent. The zerglings do huge damage to Hack's economy and again Losira doesn't quite kill off the push at his front with roach baneling. Losira is then willing to sack his baneling nest, being very patient and maximizing his time to pump units. After holding the attack, Losira get's his mutalisks up. The mutalisks seem to be timed with Hack's medivacs and Losira is easily able to clean up hack's drop attempts. Through Zergling counter attacks, Losira is able to force Hack to be all in, Losira holds the push with baneling roach and Hack is forced to gg.
How he did it
+ Show Spoiler +Again Losira's decision making proves to be insane as he knows when to pump zerglings and how to delay attacks excellently. First, when Losira sees the low ground bunker he begins pumping zerglings, I believe that this to check if damage can be done if his opponent is fast expanding. Losira seems to be very aware of the hyper mobility of Zerglings and their ability to punish your opponents mistakes right away. He uses the run by's to buy more time and kill economy when his opponent is trying to get away with something he really can't get away with. This is playing to Zerg's strength, think about how when you are terran and your protoss opponent fast expo's on a large map, you really can't punish it without becoming all in, but because speedlings are so fast, you can punish it without becoming all in, this also explains why Losira goes Hatch, gas, pool, instead of hatch, pool, gas as is more common. Losira then makes a very cool timing of going +1 melee at the same time as his lair, this allows him to be much more aggressive with pure zergling earlier on - he was even so confident as to attack the first force with almost pure zergling, indicating his belief in the unit. Upon seeing the double factory Losira prepares to get roach baneling up, the optimal force for dispelling this play.
I'm not sure why Losira begins pumping zerglings @ 9:45 but I have a theory that it is a general timing he has where he gets more zerglings to check if terran is getting a third base or is building up on two base, where if he is getting a third too fast then Losira can punish that and if he is building up on two base he needs the units anyways.
Losira then brilliantly demonstrates how to hold these two base terran all ins that have been popular for a while, by abusing moblity to survive until an optimal number of baneling roach is built up. What I would learn from this game, is that against two base terran all ins to counter attack with significant speedling numbers to cut off reinforcements while you continue to build up baneling roach, skipping mutalisks for the time being.
Game Three
+ Show Spoiler +Losira opens standard gas pool, his opponent ZeNEX zerO rushes for 2 sentries with his chrono boost and seems concerned about an all in perhaps this is due to losira's lack of interest in his probe at the expansion, as Losira only send 1 of his initial zerglings to kill it. Losira sacks and Overlord @ 6 minutes and sees the other two gateways. Although Losira should be reasonably confident that a 3 gate expand is coming, he builds a roach warren and a spine crawler at his natural regardless. Losira also, seeming very safe in his play, pumps some extra zerglings to deny scoutng probes and pressure his opponent while he gets his expansion up. zerO begins a forge and a robo as Losira gets a second spine crawler up. Losira's ling pressure forces a cannon out of his opponent and Losira begins an evolution chamber at what I would describe as "a little bit after the roach warren completes" to avoid food counts. Losira is exteremely active at scouting with zerglings, and even leaves a group behind the tasteless hallway to counter attack if given the opportunity.
The evo chamber starts +1 with lair (similar to last game), as his opponent begins poking across the map Losira builds drones and roaches. Most likely as a result of seeing a ton of gateway units and an immortal instead of a slow tech to colossus, Losira begins more spine crawlers as it begins to look like a big 2 base attack all the while using counter attacks to scout a high gateway count and no colossus and using spine crawler build up as an excuse to keep droning like crazy while teching to Hydralisks. Losira then begins using saved up money and larvae to begin immediately pumping insane amounts of hydras while using his counter attacks to buy more time. Losira barely holds the attack at his front, using all of his spine crawlers in the process. Immediately after holding the attack Losira begins a third, +2, an in base hatch, and a spire to prepare for eventual colossus. Losira uses an overseer to scout when he cant run by. Losira then pushes out with hydra corrupter zergling and versus the low collossus count of zerO combined with his ability to remake lings to reinforce quickly Losira forces his opponent to gg
How he did it
+ Show Spoiler +I think in this game Losira demonstrated his knowledge of how play to Zerg. He had impeccable drone timings and always seemed to have a purpose for his units. The use of spine crawlers and ling counter attacks was very interesting as he was able to see how long he could delay the push. This is counter to July's style vs. MC wherein July tried to get roach speed, burrow, +1, and hydra range, Losira focused in on what he wanted to do. He made a few roaches, and I think this was to try and figure out the timing of his opponents push, and I think it was because he was so unsure of the timing that he just kept adding on spine crawlers to buy himself more time to drone and think. The +1 range starting at the same time as the lair allows him to choose either roach or hydra to hold any attack, without committing to either until later on.
I think it was upon seeing the high likelihood of a big gateway immortal all in that he decided to go spine crawler hydra instead of roach hydra, as roaches would have just been force-fielded away from the hydra's and been useless. Losira truly seems to be the master of safe play and scouting. The constant activity of his zerglings means that his opponent is constantly having to delay his push and also gives opportunities for Losira to see his opponents entire base. I think that if Losira is unable to scout with Zerglings he makes the overseer, as he eventually made one when this situation occurred. Losira really took advantage of the fact that his opponent was not going colossus by getting spine crawlers and hydralisks, and I honestly believe that he could have taken down MC if he played like he did this game.
Game Four
+ Show Spoiler +This last game is the easiest of the bunch to analyze but is nonetheless a textbook example of how to flawlessly stop a mass zergling ZvZ build. Both players opt to hatch first and Losira does the same opening as versus terran, with hatch > gas > pool. Losira skips ling speed in favor of faster roaches and gets a spine crawler upon seeing constant ling production from ZeNEX Coca. Losira sees the low drone saturation and constant ling production and gets a baneling nest, all before ling speed. Losira get's roach baneling up in time, holds the attack, and moves across the map to kill his opponent.
How he did it
+ Show Spoiler +This was simply great scouting and great reaction, if you are having trouble with mass ling in ZvZ watch this game again and note the timings and scout paths and I doubt you'll ever lose to it again. Not much to say as it was as simple as "countering" what his opponent was doing
To sum up (TL;DR) Losira was all inned every single game and managed through safe play and impeccable scouting to hold every single one of them, Losira vs. MC would have been a hell of a finals.
To learn from these games:
Zerg: How scout and maximize the efficiency of speedlings through counter attacks, pressure, scouting, and delaying pushes in order to buy yourself enough time to get the perfect composition to crush your opponent's all in. Also being so aggressive with speedlings makes your opponent more likely to all in, as they cannot easily take a third base.
Protoss, Terran, and ZvZ: Your play is going to have to evolve from 2 base all ins, originally each all in was different enough to kill the opponent, but if Zergs learn from Losira's safety against all ins, these builds will simply not work anymore and you must engage in a macro game (this some bad news for a lot of masters players out there). I'm confident that Losira had never even seen his protoss opponent's all in before and still managed to hold it through the same general game play that he had in each match.
On a side note: Thank you for everyone who reads and learns from this and I will keep doing it for those who actually want to get better at StarCraft rather than complain about imbalances. Please let me know if I am analyzing anything incorrectly.
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His counter attack and runby micro was also so sick, definately doesn't seem like something that just any zerg will be able to pull off. Can't remember which game it was but he got lings in the main while one hellion desperately trying fend it off, losira splits his lings to send some after the hellion and the rest after the scvs. He used similar moves quite often but that's just one example. The ability to do that while keeping up with macro while under the pressure of a siege push is just badass. He was drastically outplaying his opponent that game, by an absurd amount. Best ling counter attack micro I have seen in all GSLs.
Everyone knows zerg needs to counter attack in these situations but usually we only see a couple isolated counter attacks that often stop as soon as one fails. With losira it was like a standard piece of his game flow, it was just a constant thing.
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I didn't see any games yet but after seeing the results I was sure that Losira played at his best.
Great read. Thanks for posting this.
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Great write up my dude. I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed the genius of LosirA. He's aggressive with his lings, able to survive dire situations and got one of the best sense of timing of all the players that i've seen play SC2.
And i got to agree with you, not a lot of Zergs would have survived ZerO play, and i do believe that LosirA style is the answer to Mc'. Hopefully, they''ll both meet at GSL.
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My analysis:
Game 1:
Icecream goes for an all-in and makes no attempt at denying scouting, not even killing the free overlord. Since no attempt was made to deny scouting, losira holds it off easily and wins.
Game 2:
hack lets his supply depot down, allowing lings to run in, kill stuff, and scout everything. He also misclicks, and has all his SCVs and mules from the nat killing his own bunker.
Thxs to that critical mistake allowing easy scouting, losira can hold off the blueflamed hellions pretty easily.
Hack doesnt wall off his nat, and instead opts to build the racks, depots and bunker inside his main. When he pushes, he loses a lot of SCVs to a ling counterattack due to that mistake. Again, he doesnt raise the supply depot, allowing the lings full scouting, and lots of damage.
For the third counterattack, he does raise the depot = 0 damage by the lings that have to pull back. he then has a lot of SCVs die to banelings, because again, he didnt bother to wall off his nat. eventually, hes just too far behind and GGs.
Game 3:
Zero 3gate expands, makes no attempt to deny scouting. Upon seeing that, losira is free to drone.
Zero doesnt wall off the tasteless hallway, allowing a ling runby to scout everything, and nab a few probes as well as delay the push.
Zero then goes for a push, but stops to kill the gold rocks, and then takes a smoke break at the watchtower, and when he finally gets to the zerg front, losira has to pull drones, and barely holds it off. After that, losira is way ahead. He gets a third and cleans up.
Game 4:
Coca shows a lot of ling, and allows the overlord to see a lack of drones on gas. Losira knowing a ling all-in is coming, makes a baneling nest (hidden from sight) and banelings (also hidden) and wins.
To sum it up:
Losira's opponents went for all-ins with no attempts to deny scouting, and decided not to wall in properly, leaving themselves very vulnerable to zergling runbys. Losira cleaned up.
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Those were some interesting games and I was actually rooting for him
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Confusedcrib, just wanted to ask you, are you planning a change to zerg? You seem to be analyzing a lot of zerg play lately. (FF thread, for example).
If I'm not mistaken you're protoss, right?
If yes, welcome to the swarm!
And thanks for the analysis, Losira is very good.
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I'm with morimacil here, as Losira's opponents did a lot of basic level stupid things.
The game 1 all-in was really dumb, Icecream both waiting in his own base after pulling SCVs and turning back and getting hesitant in the middle of the battle.
In game 2, Hack had the positional advantage to expand toward Losira for most of the game, but stayed on two base. He didn't defend hardly at all, and didn't even keep creep spread in check (if that isn't a basic mistake, I must not understand starcraft).
zer0 played Losira a lot like Huk did, struggled to be in the right position, struggled to figure out if he was being aggressive or defensive, and was mostly just indecisive.
ZvZ is really simple, and banelings >> zerglings. If you're going to zergling all-in and forego tech, you have to get started before tech is out. Coca didn't, and he died for it.
I look forward to this thread for IM's next round, as there was some staggering quality of play involved.
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Excellent write-up! I agree, ZENeX's players made stupid mistakes--but, let's face it, they're still way better than the people that we TL'ers are usually facing. So these games can be looked at--as they are in the OP--as a guide on how to best play Z against all-ins (Which is what we Z mostly lose to anyways) instead of as a series of entertaining close games. And from an educational standpoint, they're good to watch.
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On March 24 2011 05:38 Jotoco wrote:
Confusedcrib, just wanted to ask you, are you planning a change to zerg? You seem to be analyzing a lot of zerg play lately. (FF thread, for example).
If I'm not mistaken you're protoss, right?
If yes, welcome to the swarm!
And thanks for the analysis, Losira is very good.
Haha, I'm a random roller, but I love all my races  If anything I'm actually a little bit in protoss land as it was that race that got me to diamond and then I switched to random. I love Zerg mid game though. The Z focus is purely coincidental, I'm thinking I'll do MVP's stuff next though, but I'm happy to take suggestions
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Also, as a point of discussion, I'm thinking that if Zergs learn from Losira's play, all ins will become a lot less prevalent against Zergs, as Losira seems pretty untouchable by them. Thoughts?
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From your thread title, it was not hard for me to assume he all-killed in the GSTL. Make the joke inside the thread next time.
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On March 24 2011 06:25 confusedcrib wrote:
Also, as a point of discussion, I'm thinking that if Zergs learn from Losira's play, all ins will become a lot less prevalent against Zergs, as Losira seems pretty untouchable by them. Thoughts?
We didn't see him try to counter the strongest of all-ins, the 4gate. When Losira v MC is competitive, then we've got a sea-change.
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Also, as a point of discussion, I'm thinking that if Zergs learn from Losira's play, all ins will become a lot less prevalent against Zergs, as Losira seems pretty untouchable by them. Thoughts?
Well he managed to scout them.
There are very few all-ins that are actually hard to stop when you can see them coming from a mile away.
The problems only start to arise when the opponents do their best to prevent zerg from scouting, and be tricky, and so on.
The problem is, all-ins are pretty easy to stop if you can see them coming. But there is little skill involved in scouting, while there can be a lot more involved in denying scouting, and/or being tricky.
The MC vs july game 1 was just incredible skill in that regard. Any bronze noob can 4gate. Its not that hard at all to 4gate. Its also not very hard for zerg to hold off a 4gate when they know its coming. But 4gating while denying the scouting overlord, and making it look like a 3gate... Well thats pretty brilliant. Thats a great display of skill there.
Now if only zerg scouting was as based on skill as denying scouting, all would be pretty fun and fair in a perfect world :D Only the thing is, scouting as zerg, is pretty much sacrificing an overlord, and then hoping that the opponent doesnt deny it.
Once a certain skillcap is reached, all-ins become all about the scouting information. If you can see them, you can kill them, if you cant, theres a very good chance you will die.
But while a great player like MC has the possibility to do so much more to hide a 4gate, compared to a bronze noob, unfortunately, a great zerg doesnt really have the opportunity to outskill his opponent and still manage to scout. Thats what makes the whole ordeal annoying.
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I see Losira and July quite even.
Both are very agressiv, both are eager to punish risky builds and both tend to end the game with 2 base all-ins.
I dont like their playstyle. If it would have been Losira vs MC, MC would still have won. Both Zerg players really try hard to get the initiative and both suck if their opponent gets slightly ahead.
Losira is in no way "immune" to all-ins, he just aims for a 2 base all-in from start. He builds up units, tries hard to get the initiative and if he has it, he baits his opponent to get it back with an early all-in... gets him out of position and wins or loses the game
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On March 24 2011 06:35 JamesSwift wrote:
From your thread title, it was not hard for me to assume he all-killed in the GSTL. Make the joke inside the thread next time.
I apologize, I thought that the thread title could be assumed to mean he just won some games without necessarily all of them, won't happen again.
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On March 24 2011 07:03 Charon1979 wrote:
I see Losira and July quite even.
Both are very agressiv, both are eager to punish risky builds and both tend to end the game with 2 base all-ins.
I dont like their playstyle. If it would have been Losira vs MC, MC would still have won. Both Zerg players really try hard to get the initiative and both suck if their opponent gets slightly ahead.
Losira is in no way "immune" to all-ins, he just aims for a 2 base all-in from start. He builds up units, tries hard to get the initiative and if he has it, he baits his opponent to get it back with an early all-in... gets him out of position and wins or loses the game
and it's obvious from the all-kill, code a champ and code s finalist that this strat is crap.
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Great post. One thing that struck me about his play in game 2 was ridiculous creep spread. Looking closer at his queen timing, he started 4 sets of lings, then speed, then an overlord, finally getting 2 queens started putting him at 24 supply at 4:40. His queen at the natural injected first. He started his 3rd queen, at the nat, around the time speed was finishing.
He ran 3 creep tumors simultaneously for a while, then pushed 4-5 when there was a lull in other micro. The density of creep tumors helped him hold off the marine/tank pressure, since his speedbanes were on creep all the time. After beating back the push he instantly reinforced his creep spread with 3 tumors from the queen, while also extending the alternate attack path creep highway. I think vision + speed boost from his creep helped tremendously in holding his ground throughout the game.
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I think you're heavuly favoring Zerg here. Losira isn't consistently the best player but because he manages to all-kill some garb team you go crazy about it. All he did was 2-base all him himself and it was just better than his opponents. It had nothing to do with real skill just an abusive timing he worked out. Food for thought.
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On March 24 2011 13:08 Piggy wrote:
I think you're heavuly favoring Zerg here. Losira isn't consistently the best player but because he manages to all-kill some garb team you go crazy about it. All he did was 2-base all him himself and it was just better than his opponents. It had nothing to do with real skill just an abusive timing he worked out. Food for thought.
So Haypro, Ret and Idra try playing heavy macro games and lose games.
Losira does the crappy 2base timing pushes like July does. They win Code A, they get to the GSL finals, they get the only all-kill on the gstl--but the strat is crap because it's a timing push and timing pushes don't make the player's penis feel big and hence is obviously awful.
Cool beans man.
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On March 24 2011 13:19 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 13:08 Piggy wrote:
I think you're heavuly favoring Zerg here. Losira isn't consistently the best player but because he manages to all-kill some garb team you go crazy about it. All he did was 2-base all him himself and it was just better than his opponents. It had nothing to do with real skill just an abusive timing he worked out. Food for thought. So Haypro, Ret and Idra try playing heavy macro games and lose games. Losira does the crappy 2base timing pushes like July does. They win Code A, they get to the GSL finals, they get the only all-kill on the gstl--but the strat is crap because it's a timing push and timing pushes don't make the player's penis feel big and hence is obviously awful. Cool beans man.
Losira didn't even attack what do you mean he was doing a big penis timing attack? Food for thought.
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On March 24 2011 13:24 Piggy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 13:19 lorkac wrote:On March 24 2011 13:08 Piggy wrote:
I think you're heavuly favoring Zerg here. Losira isn't consistently the best player but because he manages to all-kill some garb team you go crazy about it. All he did was 2-base all him himself and it was just better than his opponents. It had nothing to do with real skill just an abusive timing he worked out. Food for thought. So Haypro, Ret and Idra try playing heavy macro games and lose games. Losira does the crappy 2base timing pushes like July does. They win Code A, they get to the GSL finals, they get the only all-kill on the gstl--but the strat is crap because it's a timing push and timing pushes don't make the player's penis feel big and hence is obviously awful. Cool beans man. Losira didn't even attack what do you mean he was doing a big penis timing attack? Food for thought.
He wasn't grabbing bases all over the map, and I can assure you that he would attack from the two bases if he wasn't attacked first. Because the point he is making is that that is how July got to Code S finals and how Losira won Code A.
But exactly, July got to Code S finals, and Losira won Code A like that. Food for thought.
However I think the usage of the term "all-in" is becoming as overused as "Cheese" used to be.
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On March 24 2011 13:24 Piggy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 13:19 lorkac wrote:On March 24 2011 13:08 Piggy wrote:
I think you're heavuly favoring Zerg here. Losira isn't consistently the best player but because he manages to all-kill some garb team you go crazy about it. All he did was 2-base all him himself and it was just better than his opponents. It had nothing to do with real skill just an abusive timing he worked out. Food for thought. So Haypro, Ret and Idra try playing heavy macro games and lose games. Losira does the crappy 2base timing pushes like July does. They win Code A, they get to the GSL finals, they get the only all-kill on the gstl--but the strat is crap because it's a timing push and timing pushes don't make the player's penis feel big and hence is obviously awful. Cool beans man. Losira didn't even attack what do you mean he was doing a big penis timing attack? Food for thought.
There is this mindset that Zerg *must* be the econ heavy macro build. Whenever a Zerg player does something apart from this they are belittled and mocked.
"Cheese!"
"All in!"
"Too risky!"
Zerg is the only race who is called risky for not fast expanding, for not building troops. It's like any Zerg who goes against the mold isn't man enough to be called a Zerg player. Like a football player who mocks a smart kid for getting straight A's or a DnD nerd who mocks his friend for not knowing how to calculate a grapple check between an Iron Golem and a Cleric supported by 16 summoned snakes.
As you said yourself.
"All he did was 2-base all him himself and it was just better than his opponents. It had nothing to do with real skill"
And you only say this because the Zerg mindset is if you don't kill your opponent with a 300food push you're obviously a crappy zerg player who got lucky. Why? Because those Zerg players feels more masculine when they do it, hence the "big penis" comment. It's akin to a 30 year old buying a 2seat sports car.
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It comes down to how Zerg early defense works: melee troops, not wall-in with ranged units. Zerg must therefore pick econ or troops (either for offense or defense) and depend on scouting to figure out where the right balance is.
The higher quality the opponent, the better disguised the varied builds are and the more guesswork the zerg is forced into utilizing. That's why so many zerg builds are risky - scouting is difficult.
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On March 24 2011 15:29 Wren wrote:
It comes down to how Zerg early defense works: melee troops, not wall-in with ranged units. Zerg must therefore pick econ or troops (either for offense or defense) and depend on scouting to figure out where the right balance is.
The higher quality the opponent, the better disguised the varied builds are and the more guesswork the zerg is forced into utilizing. That's why so many zerg builds are risky - scouting is difficult.
Actually early zerg defense is based on either medium ranged tanks (Roaches) or AoE (Banelings)
If it can't be tanked or blown up, Spines and Zerglings.
If your opponent does a massive all-in rush ala 2rax scv all in or 2gate proxy, you bring in drones much like every other race has to.
As for Zerg scouting, while the other 2 races have to depend on workers, zerg can depend on workers+overlords.
For example, the protoss wall in is not effective against 3-4 drones set to mine the minerals of the main base. So protoss can't actually wall off scouts from checking their base and hence are as easy to scout as Zerg is. Terrans usually have 1-2 of their main structures visible from the top of the ramp, which means that it's easy to figure out where you send your overlords to spot their tech since they have to keep it away from the ramp to hide it from zerglings. That means it's either near the minerals or in an open spot in the base. They can't keep it at the edge of the base because overlords can see that without being sacced.
So actually, it's much easier to scout as zerg. It's just riskier.
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On March 24 2011 15:52 lorkac wrote:
For example, the protoss wall in is not effective against 3-4 drones set to mine the minerals of the main base. So protoss can't actually wall off scouts from checking their base and hence are as easy to scout as Zerg is. Terrans usually have 1-2 of their main structures visible from the top of the ramp, which means that it's easy to figure out where you send your overlords to spot their tech since they have to keep it away from the ramp to hide it from zerglings. That means it's either near the minerals or in an open spot in the base. They can't keep it at the edge of the base because overlords can see that without being sacced.
So actually, it's much easier to scout as zerg. It's just riskier. Shwat??? Easier to scout? What if they build their tech structures in the middle of their base (outside of ramp poking vision) and deny incoming OLs with marines (as solid terrans do)? And you expect Zerg to sac 3-4 drones to get past the 1 zealot wall? Terran has scans and Protoss has an observer...
In any case, I like the OP's analysis of the Losira games, if anything I think Losira just plays a very safe style in which he can hold off any pressure or pushes with units. If the push doesn't come then he can attack himself, but most importantly he rarely dies to any early game shenanigans.
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On March 24 2011 13:08 Piggy wrote:
I think you're heavuly favoring Zerg here. Losira isn't consistently the best player but because he manages to all-kill some garb team you go crazy about it. All he did was 2-base all him himself and it was just better than his opponents. It had nothing to do with real skill just an abusive timing he worked out. Food for thought.
Can you watch his games during GSL Code A, and then come back us about it? Doesnt he have a winning percentage of 72%? That's pretty high if you ask me.
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On March 24 2011 16:11 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 15:52 lorkac wrote:
For example, the protoss wall in is not effective against 3-4 drones set to mine the minerals of the main base. So protoss can't actually wall off scouts from checking their base and hence are as easy to scout as Zerg is. Terrans usually have 1-2 of their main structures visible from the top of the ramp, which means that it's easy to figure out where you send your overlords to spot their tech since they have to keep it away from the ramp to hide it from zerglings. That means it's either near the minerals or in an open spot in the base. They can't keep it at the edge of the base because overlords can see that without being sacced.
So actually, it's much easier to scout as zerg. It's just riskier. Shwat??? Easier to scout? What if they build their tech structures in the middle of their base (outside of ramp poking vision) and deny incoming OLs with marines (as solid terrans do)? And you expect Zerg to sac 3-4 drones to get past the 1 zealot wall? Terran has scans and Protoss has an observer... In any case, I like the OP's analysis of the Losira games, if anything I think Losira just plays a very safe style in which he can hold off any pressure or pushes with units. If the push doesn't come then he can attack himself, but most importantly he rarely dies to any early game shenanigans.
Scan:Changeling
Observer:Overseer
I don't see your point.
You not wanting to send more than one drone is just you being lazy not wanting to use the tools at your disposal.
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On March 24 2011 13:33 Kazzabiss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 13:24 Piggy wrote:On March 24 2011 13:19 lorkac wrote:On March 24 2011 13:08 Piggy wrote:
I think you're heavuly favoring Zerg here. Losira isn't consistently the best player but because he manages to all-kill some garb team you go crazy about it. All he did was 2-base all him himself and it was just better than his opponents. It had nothing to do with real skill just an abusive timing he worked out. Food for thought. So Haypro, Ret and Idra try playing heavy macro games and lose games. Losira does the crappy 2base timing pushes like July does. They win Code A, they get to the GSL finals, they get the only all-kill on the gstl--but the strat is crap because it's a timing push and timing pushes don't make the player's penis feel big and hence is obviously awful. Cool beans man. Losira didn't even attack what do you mean he was doing a big penis timing attack? Food for thought. He wasn't grabbing bases all over the map, and I can assure you that he would attack from the two bases if he wasn't attacked first. Because the point he is making is that that is how July got to Code S finals and how Losira won Code A. But exactly, July got to Code S finals, and Losira won Code A like that. Food for thought. However I think the usage of the term "all-in" is becoming as overused as "Cheese" used to be.
The worst is that Losira went BW on us in Game 6 of his Code A final match. It's not like LosirA is always playing aggressively. The guy is ultra mechanical and got one of the best Macro out of any Zerg present at the GSL. It doesnt mean that he's not sitting down in his base that he's cheesy.....that doesn't even make any sense....
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On March 24 2011 16:32 lorkac wrote:
Scan:Changeling
Observer:Overseer
I don't see your point.
You not wanting to send more than one drone is just you being lazy not wanting to use the tools at your disposal.
lolololololol
And finally, you've made it crystal clear that you don't get it.
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On March 24 2011 16:37 Wren wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 16:32 lorkac wrote:
Scan:Changeling
Observer:Overseer
I don't see your point.
You not wanting to send more than one drone is just you being lazy not wanting to use the tools at your disposal. lolololololol And finally, you've made it crystal clear that you don't get it.
You not understanding how costly it is for terran to use scans as scouting tech shows how much you don't understand terran.
You also not knowing that Observers forces Protoss into a very specific tech path that reduces their flexibility shows you don't understand protoss.
In fact, Overseer is the only fast moving detector that is very good at both scouting and base defense (against cloak).
L2use your race.
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Yes, you can scout toss with 4 workers, if he ends up making a stalker first instead of a sentry. If he makes the sentry first, then you are screwed if you decided to pull 4 drones.
And even if he made the stalker first, to scout, you would need to pull 4 drones super early to get there in time. At that point, youd want to be making a hatchery. Sacrificing 4 drones at a point in time where you only have 16 will put you incredibly far behind. So then you can scout, but that doesnt matter, since you are already behind.
Someone recently proposed ding a 10pool gas build skipping lingspeed and queen going straight to lair to get an overseer out fast enough to be able to scout. Which is the same principle as the 4 drone sac, the triple overlord sac, and so on. When you have to put yourself so far behind to scout, ultimately it matters little what you scout, since then you are behind no matter what.
You could also just build 4 queens, 2 spores, 5 spines, and a roach warren. Youd be pretty safe, and you would be behind no matter what.
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On March 24 2011 16:51 morimacil wrote:
Yes, you can scout toss with 4 workers, if he ends up making a stalker first instead of a sentry. If he makes the sentry first, then you are screwed if you decided to pull 4 drones.
And even if he made the stalker first, to scout, you would need to pull 4 drones super early to get there in time. At that point, youd want to be making a hatchery. Sacrificing 4 drones at a point in time where you only have 16 will put you incredibly far behind. So then you can scout, but that doesnt matter, since you are already behind.
Someone recently proposed ding a 10pool gas build skipping lingspeed and queen going straight to lair to get an overseer out fast enough to be able to scout. Which is the same principle as the 4 drone sac, the triple overlord sac, and so on. When you have to put yourself so far behind to scout, ultimately it matters little what you scout, since then you are behind no matter what.
You could also just build 4 queens, 2 spores, 5 spines, and a roach warren. Youd be pretty safe, and you would be behind no matter what.
There is also the gas steal constant cancel while you wait for the proper timing to finally run him around the part of the enemy base where an overlord can't get to.
There is also Attacking him with 4-6 lings as you do the drone mine trick akin to SlayersAlicia attacking with a zealot to tank for a probe to scout non-wall terran
Also, if he forcefields the drones out of the base, you wait 15 seconds and try again. If he forcefields the drones within the base, they get in either way. Zerg is the only race that seems to think the other races aren't sending their workers off to die in the name of scouting. Please, you're not the only race who cares that he's losing units.
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Thanks for making these posts, Confusedcrib. (It was you that made the threads analyzing MC and such in this style as well, right?) It's always nice to get an in-depth analysis of these games, especially when Tastosis only briefly mentions these types of things while focusing on making their commentary entertaining and enjoyable.
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How so?
I've not only repeatedly given various other options on how to achieve the goals I have stated, but also provided evidence with up to date tournament results from currently successful players.
The main argument against me consist of you guys saying it's too hard and it's too difficult despite the results of successful players outside of theorycraft world. When you say that Zerg can't scout I repeatedly provide ways for zerg to scout, when you say that the opponent has it easier I remind you that those are all midgame options past the 15-20 supply point, and for protoss it means tier 2 tech and skipping Immortals/collossus. The response? Zerg still says its harder.
I give argument on why aggression works, the retort consist of you guys saying that it doesn't because you say so despite evidence to the contrary.
Which part of me is performing the Chewbacca defense?
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The part which uses just assorted exceptions from the rule to "proof" that the exception is standard, while the rule is wrong.
The part which ist constantly ignoring the fact that producing much army at this point in game puts you behind if you dont need it.
I had to laugh really hard when Losira exactly did what you try to tell us + Show Spoiler + and lost to a cannon and a single FF, because 14 lings and 6 banelings was too much of an commitment
The part which constantly keep prepeating the same theme about protoss "scouting"
Terra will produce marines no matter what he scouts
Marines are the solution against all Z early aggression
Terra can get a single bunker if he feels uncomfortable and gets the money back if he feels comfortable again
Terra can get a solid wall-in
Protoss will produce anti-air no matter what he scouts
Protoss doesnt have to be afraid of 2 - 4 zerg units crushing the entire base because there is no observer/cannon out
There ist just one single thing to scout for you guys... is there an EXTREMELY early banelingnest/roach warren or not?
If i still feel uncomfortable -> bunker/sentry -> crisis averted
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Who are these people saying all Losira did was 2 base all ins in those games?
Game 1 ends around 8 minutes Losira on 2 base his opp on 1 It would be silly of Losira to be on 3 bases at this point given his opp doing a 1 base all in.
Game 2 ends with Losira haveing 4 bases 3 that are capable of mining after crushing marine/tank attacks over and over again.
Game 3 ends with Losira on 3 bases after defending a 5gate robo.
Game 4 ends with Losira on 2 base because he scouts his opp doing a Ling all in
Losiras play was sick to say the least and it showed a lot of tools that zerg players dont utilize enough I dont think anyone really thinks hes the best zerg in the world ATM but the tactics he used along with some pretty solid Macro is something a lot of zerg players should try to emulate. I think if there is one thing weve learned from July zerg and Losira its that Zerg most certainly can macro while being aggressive and when the opportunity presents itself you can switch to non stop army production (ALL IN) You just have to pick the right moment.
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I believe losira only stayed on two base upon seeing that his opponent was 2 base all inning, it will be interesting to see his macro style as less people all in him
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On March 25 2011 00:54 SC2-Dethklok wrote:
Who are these people saying all Losira did was 2 base all ins in those games?
Game 1 ends around 8 minutes Losira on 2 base his opp on 1 It would be silly of Losira to be on 3 bases at this point given his opp doing a 1 base all in.
Game 2 ends with Losira haveing 4 bases 3 that are capable of mining after crushing marine/tank attacks over and over again.
Game 3 ends with Losira on 3 bases after defending a 5gate robo.
Game 4 ends with Losira on 2 base because he scouts his opp doing a Ling all in
Losiras play was sick to say the least and it showed a lot of tools that zerg players dont utilize enough I dont think anyone really thinks hes the best zerg in the world ATM but the tactics he used along with some pretty solid Macro is something a lot of zerg players should try to emulate. I think if there is one thing weve learned from July zerg and Losira its that Zerg most certainly can macro while being aggressive and when the opportunity presents itself you can switch to non stop army production (ALL IN) You just have to pick the right moment.
Exactly. I just don't understand the gist of the All in definition anymore. What's next, 5 base all in.....
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:D Next is Min's all in by taking 9 bases :D
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On March 25 2011 03:17 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 00:54 SC2-Dethklok wrote:
Who are these people saying all Losira did was 2 base all ins in those games?
Game 1 ends around 8 minutes Losira on 2 base his opp on 1 It would be silly of Losira to be on 3 bases at this point given his opp doing a 1 base all in.
Game 2 ends with Losira haveing 4 bases 3 that are capable of mining after crushing marine/tank attacks over and over again.
Game 3 ends with Losira on 3 bases after defending a 5gate robo.
Game 4 ends with Losira on 2 base because he scouts his opp doing a Ling all in
Losiras play was sick to say the least and it showed a lot of tools that zerg players dont utilize enough I dont think anyone really thinks hes the best zerg in the world ATM but the tactics he used along with some pretty solid Macro is something a lot of zerg players should try to emulate. I think if there is one thing weve learned from July zerg and Losira its that Zerg most certainly can macro while being aggressive and when the opportunity presents itself you can switch to non stop army production (ALL IN) You just have to pick the right moment. Exactly. I just don't understand the gist of the All in definition anymore. What's next, 5 base all in.....
an all in is defined loosely in Starcraft as a main attack without a steadily increasing economy behind it to allow for recovery in case of failure.
This is most apparent in a 6pool and a MarineSCV all in. It also happens when you do things like cut worker production (4/6 gate), amass slow build time units such as thors, proxy your production in/near your opponents base, etc...
It's less that the term is overused and more to do that the strategy is overused. For example, one can say "send out scouting worker" is an overused term, but that doesn't mean it's inaccurate.
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Well, then, any decision to make a push, a serious attack could be called an all in because you stop your focus on an economical point of view. To me, that build is closer to an Eh An timing than anything else, if and only if, you can recover with a real transition afterward. But that's just my point of view.
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On March 25 2011 03:58 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:
Well, then, any decision to make a push, a serious attack could be called an all in because you stop your focus on an economical point of view. To me, that build is closer to an Eh An timing than anything else, if and only if, you can recover with a real transition afterward. But that's just my point of view.
Most players continue to macro while they push; Lower levels may not have APM/Multitasking to do this. This makes their regular pushes quite all-inish and at least in silver; if you can defend a push you usually win outright with a counter-push because of the lack of macroing during the attack.
There is no "Starcraft Dictionary" so popular terms like cheese, all-in, macro, micro will all have slightly different meanings to each person. There is no correct answer; because there is no authoritative entity to make such a decision.
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On March 24 2011 16:47 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 16:37 Wren wrote:On March 24 2011 16:32 lorkac wrote:
Scan:Changeling
Observer:Overseer
I don't see your point.
You not wanting to send more than one drone is just you being lazy not wanting to use the tools at your disposal. lolololololol And finally, you've made it crystal clear that you don't get it. You not understanding how costly it is for terran to use scans as scouting tech shows how much you don't understand terran. You also not knowing that Observers forces Protoss into a very specific tech path that reduces their flexibility shows you don't understand protoss. In fact, Overseer is the only fast moving detector that is very good at both scouting and base defense (against cloak). L2use your race. Lorkac, I tend to agree with some of what you're saying but disagree quite strongly with some other things. Me not wanting to sac 3-4 of my drones is not "me being lazy", but is simply me not wanting to sac 3-4 of my first 15 drones to get a scout off. That's simply not worth it. If they have a stalker out they are literally all going to die.
However, I do the gas cancel/rebuild thing and then pull the drone to scout. If they are attacking the extractor I can get another drone in the front, or sneak an overlord in the side. If they aren't attacking the gas then I can cancel and get the scout off that way, so yes, this is a good idea for creative scouting. I also like your few zerglings + a drone to go through the zealot idea.
So that said, I think scouting for Z is really mostly problematic when playing against Terran on a 4-player map. If you scout the T last (or 2nd on a big map), he will have his wall-off already complete, or have 1-2 marines that can kill your drone before it gets into his base. By the time an overlord can make it to that side of the map, it may either be already too late (attack incoming), or he will have enough marines to patrol the periphery of his base and prevent a sacced OL from seeing anything. This is problematic b/c there are a large variety of 1-base timing attacks Terran can do that may require different unit compositions.
That said, I think the reason why this is relevant is that Losira's style is safe against pretty much all timing pushes (aside from an unscouted 2-port banshee), in which his roach/ling/bling force can either kill the 1-base push or put pressure if Terran has actually been planning an expo.
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@jdub
sorry for the broad generalization. The 3-4 drone tactic is really too much. My main point was tat it's possible.
Vs Terran Zerg scouting is the most difficult. I know from experience since I normally did the extractor shenanigans as well as saccing 2-3 overlords just to make sure he web banshee and not tanks. I understand the pain all too well.
I've even tried roach burrow just to scout their main in the midgame before turrets. (pretty useless since the metagame forces Terran to build turrets spire or no)
I practiced having 3 control groups of zerglings. One at the bottom of his ramp, one farther away, am one group hidden to make a scouting runby should Terran get past both my first two groups letting me know that the supply depot was down.
I've done baneling busts without a lot of lings since I simply wanted to them to start havoc production facilities as their wall so that I could scout them better.
I've tried a LOT of ways to scout. It's hard. But it isn't impossible. I agree with you.
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Just saw an amazing little trick, and I'm pretty sure I'm not spoiling anything to say it.
Drone + zergling to scout the walled protoss. Send the zergling to attack the zealot and do the mining trick to get the drone through the battle. Your timing has to be pretty good, the zergling will be dead fast, but that's a sacrifice that's worth the information.
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On March 25 2011 05:56 Wren wrote:
Just saw an amazing little trick, and I'm pretty sure I'm not spoiling anything to say it.
Drone + zergling to scout the walled protoss. Send the zergling to attack the zealot and do the mining trick to get the drone through the battle. Your timing has to be pretty good, the zergling will be dead fast, but that's a sacrifice that's worth the information.
If the protoss has good micro, with 1 stalker 1 zealot, he will kill the drone before it gets to see anything. So you need to sacrifice at least 2 drones and a ling.
But its also still quite risky. if hes going for something like straight up stargate, that can be worth it.
But for gateways, well if you wait too long, he has too many units, and the cute trick cant get you through. But if you go in right away, then its too early, and the toss can still decide to cancel a gateway, or stop probe production and add on another one.
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This is the first time I've significantly disagreed with you. Protoss timings are fairly regular, and there's a fairly large gap between zealot and second unit in most tech builds. If there's a lot of units when you're not expecting them, that tells you something too.
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You scout with a drone.
drone runs around in circles
stalker/sentry arrives and kills drone
structures go down
more units are made.
Good protoss do not leave "a fairly large gap beteen zealot and second unit", especially in tech builds, since they want to get rid of the scouting drone asap.
After that first stalker comes out, and kills your drone, you have about 20 seconds where you could use a ling to sneak 2 drones in so one survives and can see what hes up to. After those 20 seconds are up, another unit pops out of the initial gateway, and that wont work anymore.
Since its such a small gap in time, canceling a gateway at that point (if only to remake it 10 seconds later) is not that big of a deal at all.
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gee thanks for adding the spoiler alert after your spoiler, really.
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The difference between a stalker or sentry as the second unit, especially if you can get a look at the infrastructure in the base (# of gates, what's being chronoboosted, gases, early tech), can be enough to tell you the current path.
In any game, with any species, you can have sudden and secret tech switches or canceled buildings, that's just going to have to be a mind game you play with your opponent.
The point is that there's now revealed a solid way to get a scout through the protoss wall.
EDIT: don't worry about it tymt, there's still plenty of reason to watch the GSTL.
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On March 25 2011 07:45 tymt wrote:
gee thanks for adding the spoiler alert after your spoiler, really.
At this point this kind of reply is ridiculous, you don't even know what match with IM in it I'm talking about.
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EPT
