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On March 24 2011 13:19 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 13:08 Piggy wrote:
I think you're heavuly favoring Zerg here. Losira isn't consistently the best player but because he manages to all-kill some garb team you go crazy about it. All he did was 2-base all him himself and it was just better than his opponents. It had nothing to do with real skill just an abusive timing he worked out. Food for thought. So Haypro, Ret and Idra try playing heavy macro games and lose games. Losira does the crappy 2base timing pushes like July does. They win Code A, they get to the GSL finals, they get the only all-kill on the gstl--but the strat is crap because it's a timing push and timing pushes don't make the player's penis feel big and hence is obviously awful. Cool beans man.
Losira didn't even attack what do you mean he was doing a big penis timing attack? Food for thought.
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On March 24 2011 13:24 Piggy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 13:19 lorkac wrote:On March 24 2011 13:08 Piggy wrote:
I think you're heavuly favoring Zerg here. Losira isn't consistently the best player but because he manages to all-kill some garb team you go crazy about it. All he did was 2-base all him himself and it was just better than his opponents. It had nothing to do with real skill just an abusive timing he worked out. Food for thought. So Haypro, Ret and Idra try playing heavy macro games and lose games. Losira does the crappy 2base timing pushes like July does. They win Code A, they get to the GSL finals, they get the only all-kill on the gstl--but the strat is crap because it's a timing push and timing pushes don't make the player's penis feel big and hence is obviously awful. Cool beans man. Losira didn't even attack what do you mean he was doing a big penis timing attack? Food for thought.
He wasn't grabbing bases all over the map, and I can assure you that he would attack from the two bases if he wasn't attacked first. Because the point he is making is that that is how July got to Code S finals and how Losira won Code A.
But exactly, July got to Code S finals, and Losira won Code A like that. Food for thought.
However I think the usage of the term "all-in" is becoming as overused as "Cheese" used to be.
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On March 24 2011 13:24 Piggy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 13:19 lorkac wrote:On March 24 2011 13:08 Piggy wrote:
I think you're heavuly favoring Zerg here. Losira isn't consistently the best player but because he manages to all-kill some garb team you go crazy about it. All he did was 2-base all him himself and it was just better than his opponents. It had nothing to do with real skill just an abusive timing he worked out. Food for thought. So Haypro, Ret and Idra try playing heavy macro games and lose games. Losira does the crappy 2base timing pushes like July does. They win Code A, they get to the GSL finals, they get the only all-kill on the gstl--but the strat is crap because it's a timing push and timing pushes don't make the player's penis feel big and hence is obviously awful. Cool beans man. Losira didn't even attack what do you mean he was doing a big penis timing attack? Food for thought.
There is this mindset that Zerg *must* be the econ heavy macro build. Whenever a Zerg player does something apart from this they are belittled and mocked.
"Cheese!"
"All in!"
"Too risky!"
Zerg is the only race who is called risky for not fast expanding, for not building troops. It's like any Zerg who goes against the mold isn't man enough to be called a Zerg player. Like a football player who mocks a smart kid for getting straight A's or a DnD nerd who mocks his friend for not knowing how to calculate a grapple check between an Iron Golem and a Cleric supported by 16 summoned snakes.
As you said yourself.
"All he did was 2-base all him himself and it was just better than his opponents. It had nothing to do with real skill"
And you only say this because the Zerg mindset is if you don't kill your opponent with a 300food push you're obviously a crappy zerg player who got lucky. Why? Because those Zerg players feels more masculine when they do it, hence the "big penis" comment. It's akin to a 30 year old buying a 2seat sports car.
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It comes down to how Zerg early defense works: melee troops, not wall-in with ranged units. Zerg must therefore pick econ or troops (either for offense or defense) and depend on scouting to figure out where the right balance is.
The higher quality the opponent, the better disguised the varied builds are and the more guesswork the zerg is forced into utilizing. That's why so many zerg builds are risky - scouting is difficult.
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On March 24 2011 15:29 Wren wrote:
It comes down to how Zerg early defense works: melee troops, not wall-in with ranged units. Zerg must therefore pick econ or troops (either for offense or defense) and depend on scouting to figure out where the right balance is.
The higher quality the opponent, the better disguised the varied builds are and the more guesswork the zerg is forced into utilizing. That's why so many zerg builds are risky - scouting is difficult.
Actually early zerg defense is based on either medium ranged tanks (Roaches) or AoE (Banelings)
If it can't be tanked or blown up, Spines and Zerglings.
If your opponent does a massive all-in rush ala 2rax scv all in or 2gate proxy, you bring in drones much like every other race has to.
As for Zerg scouting, while the other 2 races have to depend on workers, zerg can depend on workers+overlords.
For example, the protoss wall in is not effective against 3-4 drones set to mine the minerals of the main base. So protoss can't actually wall off scouts from checking their base and hence are as easy to scout as Zerg is. Terrans usually have 1-2 of their main structures visible from the top of the ramp, which means that it's easy to figure out where you send your overlords to spot their tech since they have to keep it away from the ramp to hide it from zerglings. That means it's either near the minerals or in an open spot in the base. They can't keep it at the edge of the base because overlords can see that without being sacced.
So actually, it's much easier to scout as zerg. It's just riskier.
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On March 24 2011 15:52 lorkac wrote:
For example, the protoss wall in is not effective against 3-4 drones set to mine the minerals of the main base. So protoss can't actually wall off scouts from checking their base and hence are as easy to scout as Zerg is. Terrans usually have 1-2 of their main structures visible from the top of the ramp, which means that it's easy to figure out where you send your overlords to spot their tech since they have to keep it away from the ramp to hide it from zerglings. That means it's either near the minerals or in an open spot in the base. They can't keep it at the edge of the base because overlords can see that without being sacced.
So actually, it's much easier to scout as zerg. It's just riskier. Shwat??? Easier to scout? What if they build their tech structures in the middle of their base (outside of ramp poking vision) and deny incoming OLs with marines (as solid terrans do)? And you expect Zerg to sac 3-4 drones to get past the 1 zealot wall? Terran has scans and Protoss has an observer...
In any case, I like the OP's analysis of the Losira games, if anything I think Losira just plays a very safe style in which he can hold off any pressure or pushes with units. If the push doesn't come then he can attack himself, but most importantly he rarely dies to any early game shenanigans.
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On March 24 2011 13:08 Piggy wrote:
I think you're heavuly favoring Zerg here. Losira isn't consistently the best player but because he manages to all-kill some garb team you go crazy about it. All he did was 2-base all him himself and it was just better than his opponents. It had nothing to do with real skill just an abusive timing he worked out. Food for thought.
Can you watch his games during GSL Code A, and then come back us about it? Doesnt he have a winning percentage of 72%? That's pretty high if you ask me.
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On March 24 2011 16:11 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 15:52 lorkac wrote:
For example, the protoss wall in is not effective against 3-4 drones set to mine the minerals of the main base. So protoss can't actually wall off scouts from checking their base and hence are as easy to scout as Zerg is. Terrans usually have 1-2 of their main structures visible from the top of the ramp, which means that it's easy to figure out where you send your overlords to spot their tech since they have to keep it away from the ramp to hide it from zerglings. That means it's either near the minerals or in an open spot in the base. They can't keep it at the edge of the base because overlords can see that without being sacced.
So actually, it's much easier to scout as zerg. It's just riskier. Shwat??? Easier to scout? What if they build their tech structures in the middle of their base (outside of ramp poking vision) and deny incoming OLs with marines (as solid terrans do)? And you expect Zerg to sac 3-4 drones to get past the 1 zealot wall? Terran has scans and Protoss has an observer... In any case, I like the OP's analysis of the Losira games, if anything I think Losira just plays a very safe style in which he can hold off any pressure or pushes with units. If the push doesn't come then he can attack himself, but most importantly he rarely dies to any early game shenanigans.
Scan:Changeling
Observer:Overseer
I don't see your point.
You not wanting to send more than one drone is just you being lazy not wanting to use the tools at your disposal.
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On March 24 2011 13:33 Kazzabiss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 13:24 Piggy wrote:On March 24 2011 13:19 lorkac wrote:On March 24 2011 13:08 Piggy wrote:
I think you're heavuly favoring Zerg here. Losira isn't consistently the best player but because he manages to all-kill some garb team you go crazy about it. All he did was 2-base all him himself and it was just better than his opponents. It had nothing to do with real skill just an abusive timing he worked out. Food for thought. So Haypro, Ret and Idra try playing heavy macro games and lose games. Losira does the crappy 2base timing pushes like July does. They win Code A, they get to the GSL finals, they get the only all-kill on the gstl--but the strat is crap because it's a timing push and timing pushes don't make the player's penis feel big and hence is obviously awful. Cool beans man. Losira didn't even attack what do you mean he was doing a big penis timing attack? Food for thought. He wasn't grabbing bases all over the map, and I can assure you that he would attack from the two bases if he wasn't attacked first. Because the point he is making is that that is how July got to Code S finals and how Losira won Code A. But exactly, July got to Code S finals, and Losira won Code A like that. Food for thought. However I think the usage of the term "all-in" is becoming as overused as "Cheese" used to be.
The worst is that Losira went BW on us in Game 6 of his Code A final match. It's not like LosirA is always playing aggressively. The guy is ultra mechanical and got one of the best Macro out of any Zerg present at the GSL. It doesnt mean that he's not sitting down in his base that he's cheesy.....that doesn't even make any sense....
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On March 24 2011 16:32 lorkac wrote:
Scan:Changeling
Observer:Overseer
I don't see your point.
You not wanting to send more than one drone is just you being lazy not wanting to use the tools at your disposal.
lolololololol
And finally, you've made it crystal clear that you don't get it.
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On March 24 2011 16:37 Wren wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 16:32 lorkac wrote:
Scan:Changeling
Observer:Overseer
I don't see your point.
You not wanting to send more than one drone is just you being lazy not wanting to use the tools at your disposal. lolololololol And finally, you've made it crystal clear that you don't get it.
You not understanding how costly it is for terran to use scans as scouting tech shows how much you don't understand terran.
You also not knowing that Observers forces Protoss into a very specific tech path that reduces their flexibility shows you don't understand protoss.
In fact, Overseer is the only fast moving detector that is very good at both scouting and base defense (against cloak).
L2use your race.
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Yes, you can scout toss with 4 workers, if he ends up making a stalker first instead of a sentry. If he makes the sentry first, then you are screwed if you decided to pull 4 drones.
And even if he made the stalker first, to scout, you would need to pull 4 drones super early to get there in time. At that point, youd want to be making a hatchery. Sacrificing 4 drones at a point in time where you only have 16 will put you incredibly far behind. So then you can scout, but that doesnt matter, since you are already behind.
Someone recently proposed ding a 10pool gas build skipping lingspeed and queen going straight to lair to get an overseer out fast enough to be able to scout. Which is the same principle as the 4 drone sac, the triple overlord sac, and so on. When you have to put yourself so far behind to scout, ultimately it matters little what you scout, since then you are behind no matter what.
You could also just build 4 queens, 2 spores, 5 spines, and a roach warren. Youd be pretty safe, and you would be behind no matter what.
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On March 24 2011 16:51 morimacil wrote:
Yes, you can scout toss with 4 workers, if he ends up making a stalker first instead of a sentry. If he makes the sentry first, then you are screwed if you decided to pull 4 drones.
And even if he made the stalker first, to scout, you would need to pull 4 drones super early to get there in time. At that point, youd want to be making a hatchery. Sacrificing 4 drones at a point in time where you only have 16 will put you incredibly far behind. So then you can scout, but that doesnt matter, since you are already behind.
Someone recently proposed ding a 10pool gas build skipping lingspeed and queen going straight to lair to get an overseer out fast enough to be able to scout. Which is the same principle as the 4 drone sac, the triple overlord sac, and so on. When you have to put yourself so far behind to scout, ultimately it matters little what you scout, since then you are behind no matter what.
You could also just build 4 queens, 2 spores, 5 spines, and a roach warren. Youd be pretty safe, and you would be behind no matter what.
There is also the gas steal constant cancel while you wait for the proper timing to finally run him around the part of the enemy base where an overlord can't get to.
There is also Attacking him with 4-6 lings as you do the drone mine trick akin to SlayersAlicia attacking with a zealot to tank for a probe to scout non-wall terran
Also, if he forcefields the drones out of the base, you wait 15 seconds and try again. If he forcefields the drones within the base, they get in either way. Zerg is the only race that seems to think the other races aren't sending their workers off to die in the name of scouting. Please, you're not the only race who cares that he's losing units.
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Thanks for making these posts, Confusedcrib. (It was you that made the threads analyzing MC and such in this style as well, right?) It's always nice to get an in-depth analysis of these games, especially when Tastosis only briefly mentions these types of things while focusing on making their commentary entertaining and enjoyable.
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How so?
I've not only repeatedly given various other options on how to achieve the goals I have stated, but also provided evidence with up to date tournament results from currently successful players.
The main argument against me consist of you guys saying it's too hard and it's too difficult despite the results of successful players outside of theorycraft world. When you say that Zerg can't scout I repeatedly provide ways for zerg to scout, when you say that the opponent has it easier I remind you that those are all midgame options past the 15-20 supply point, and for protoss it means tier 2 tech and skipping Immortals/collossus. The response? Zerg still says its harder.
I give argument on why aggression works, the retort consist of you guys saying that it doesn't because you say so despite evidence to the contrary.
Which part of me is performing the Chewbacca defense?
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The part which uses just assorted exceptions from the rule to "proof" that the exception is standard, while the rule is wrong.
The part which ist constantly ignoring the fact that producing much army at this point in game puts you behind if you dont need it.
I had to laugh really hard when Losira exactly did what you try to tell us + Show Spoiler + and lost to a cannon and a single FF, because 14 lings and 6 banelings was too much of an commitment
The part which constantly keep prepeating the same theme about protoss "scouting"
Terra will produce marines no matter what he scouts
Marines are the solution against all Z early aggression
Terra can get a single bunker if he feels uncomfortable and gets the money back if he feels comfortable again
Terra can get a solid wall-in
Protoss will produce anti-air no matter what he scouts
Protoss doesnt have to be afraid of 2 - 4 zerg units crushing the entire base because there is no observer/cannon out
There ist just one single thing to scout for you guys... is there an EXTREMELY early banelingnest/roach warren or not?
If i still feel uncomfortable -> bunker/sentry -> crisis averted
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Who are these people saying all Losira did was 2 base all ins in those games?
Game 1 ends around 8 minutes Losira on 2 base his opp on 1 It would be silly of Losira to be on 3 bases at this point given his opp doing a 1 base all in.
Game 2 ends with Losira haveing 4 bases 3 that are capable of mining after crushing marine/tank attacks over and over again.
Game 3 ends with Losira on 3 bases after defending a 5gate robo.
Game 4 ends with Losira on 2 base because he scouts his opp doing a Ling all in
Losiras play was sick to say the least and it showed a lot of tools that zerg players dont utilize enough I dont think anyone really thinks hes the best zerg in the world ATM but the tactics he used along with some pretty solid Macro is something a lot of zerg players should try to emulate. I think if there is one thing weve learned from July zerg and Losira its that Zerg most certainly can macro while being aggressive and when the opportunity presents itself you can switch to non stop army production (ALL IN) You just have to pick the right moment.
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I believe losira only stayed on two base upon seeing that his opponent was 2 base all inning, it will be interesting to see his macro style as less people all in him
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On March 25 2011 00:54 SC2-Dethklok wrote:
Who are these people saying all Losira did was 2 base all ins in those games?
Game 1 ends around 8 minutes Losira on 2 base his opp on 1 It would be silly of Losira to be on 3 bases at this point given his opp doing a 1 base all in.
Game 2 ends with Losira haveing 4 bases 3 that are capable of mining after crushing marine/tank attacks over and over again.
Game 3 ends with Losira on 3 bases after defending a 5gate robo.
Game 4 ends with Losira on 2 base because he scouts his opp doing a Ling all in
Losiras play was sick to say the least and it showed a lot of tools that zerg players dont utilize enough I dont think anyone really thinks hes the best zerg in the world ATM but the tactics he used along with some pretty solid Macro is something a lot of zerg players should try to emulate. I think if there is one thing weve learned from July zerg and Losira its that Zerg most certainly can macro while being aggressive and when the opportunity presents itself you can switch to non stop army production (ALL IN) You just have to pick the right moment.
Exactly. I just don't understand the gist of the All in definition anymore. What's next, 5 base all in.....
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EPT
