|
Or how to make your opponent seem like a noob even at higher level play.
Basically it goes like this:
Conventional wisdom is wrong. You don't want Vikings to kill off Colossus. You want to do it with mass Bancheese.
I'll explain why then transition into the build order.
Bancheese are better than Vikings for the following reasons.
1) They can harass someone's mineral line.
2) They can contain an opponent in their base like mutalisks do. Just the threat of bancheese outside their base means they can't push out.
3) You can't always rely on cloak, but sometimes it helps.
4) They're 1:1 with stalkers in small numbers, but in large numbers, Bancheese actually counter stalkers.
How does mass Bancheese counter mass stalkers? Stalkers cannot stack, so they can't fully focus their fire on you if you engage them at a cliff. So if you have 10 bancheese and they have 10 stalkers, maybe half their stalkers at best can shoot your bancheese. A lot of people don't realize this, so they'll happily give you the game instead of running away. As you get more and more bancheese, you get more and more of an advantage of enaging by a cliff. Once you pick off enough stalkers that he has no more anti air, you can basically GG, you win. He can have like 6 colossus, and they're just wasted mineral he should have spent on anti air.
Ok, that is good for theory crafting, but where does the rubber hit the road: What is the build order?
It is really map dependent. I'll come up with the most abusive build order to start with(NEW LOST TEMPLE):
Start out with: rax/gas. Put only one on gas. He is there just to throw misinformation to your opponent. If you start the game without a gas, your opponent gets redflags. So kill or chase away your opponent's worker before the next part of the build.
Next: rax/Command Center/bunker/2nd gas, and put workers on gas/bunker/bunker
If you expect a push, bring some scv out to hold the push. There isn't much protoss has that can get through 3 bunker filled with marines with a few repairing SCV.
Next: Factory/techlab, siege tank/siegemode
At the same time: keep saturating mineral with SCV and get the gas at the expo too
As you add siege tanks and marines to your bunker line, nothing is getting through that.
Once you get enough resources: Triple starport with techlabs on every one. The goal is to make mass bancheese, or if they go air, you can make vikings too. There's a bit of synergy with vikings + bancheese because you can occassionally snipe observers which will annoy your opponent greatly, but unless they go air, you just wanna keep making bancheese, oh and maybe 1 raven just to be safe against desperate Dark Templar players. The raven can be used for an early harass on minerals with a turret drop.
So anyway, as you make squads of bancheese, hit his probes, but run from stalkers, and camp your bancheese just outside of his base. It is nice to do damage, but just having the bancheese ready to run in and deal damage if he pushes out is where you want to be.
With your bancheese lockdown on his main/expo, you should be floating Command Centers all around the board with excess mineral. Drop em down and make Planetary Fortresses on Hidden expansions. Your opponent cannot really push out with enough units to kill your Planetary Fortresses because you're creating a bancheese swarm outside his main/expo. If he goes cross map to engage one, you just crash his mineral lines. This means, you can just Planetary Fortress as much as the map as you can while you contain him to two bases.
If your opponent does 1 base rush, and you hold it off at the 3 bunkers, it is basically GG. I think the biggest threat to this build would be fast expand + quick stargate to Phoenixes, but no one in their right mind starts out like that currently. And even then you an fight Phoenixes with Vikings at a pretty fair fight.
I don't have my friends ~3000 level replays, but when he used this strategy, he thought his opponents were noobs. There is nothing stalker+colossus ball can feasibly do to win when you use this strategy except break your initial bunkers before they get up. The game quickly spirals out of control as your bancheese start getting to critical mass where they start beating stalkers, and your opponent being unable to leave his base while you expand the board aggressively. It is a doubly bad situation with no win possible. They can't even break down your front door because you have a bunch of siege tanks/bunkers/extra marines laying around.
It is one of the most synergistic strategies I've run across. I wanted to keep it for myself for a while, but there's no sense in that because I don't have time to go pro again. I'm busy writing video games now. My friend came up with Bancheese being good vs Collosus, I just optimized.
GoodNewsJim Bancheesery Replay
|
most protoss love colossus too much. if toss gets a stargate its gg if you go banshees. stalkers are horrible units, losing to banshees late game. templar tech just completely own energy units like banshees.
on thing to add is to get a raven or 2. pdd is deadly with banshees.
|
Your opponent will just make phoenixes lol
Also jesus don't call them bancheese.
You won't really have gas for 3x banshees, tanks, marauders, and upgrades. I think vikings are better ;p
|
If they go Phoenixes, they basically need to triple gate to out produce your vikings. And like I said,"When you have vikings and bancheese together, it becomes an added problem for your opponent because the occassional scan is killing off observers."
My friend owned a guy who went stalker/voids/ciarriers. Maybe I'll see if I can get his replays.
Mass bancheese is really on par with mass muta.
|
Its not viable at all if your opponent sees more than 1 starport with a tech lab with an observer.. He just builds phoenix and there is NO way that a terran player can outmake vikings compared to the toss's phoenix at that point. Also it might even be impossible to scout if hes going phoenix or not.
|
Maybe you can out produce triple port vikings, maybe not. The title of this thread was how to beat someone who is going Colossus ball. Since most players do go Colossus ball at high level, it is a good strategy to go.
|
It doesn't matter if he has to tripple stargate to out produce a terran's vikings, he will eventually win. Also like I said there is a very very very small chance for the terran to actually scout that the toss is switching to phoenix. Also you will not have a spare 3-4 reactors waiting around to pump out mass vikings.
Heres a replay where my opponent tried to go mass banshee and I just phoenix switched. He had no chance.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=196501
Edit: also an idle robo means observers galore and even if it temporarily kills your observers, your phoenix will be able to destroy all of the vikings and then your obs can come back in later ( the toss should purchase obs speed vs this build) so the phoenix can mop up the banshees.
|
Any toss who knows how to scout and react will destroy this cute build...
And you seem to think 1rax mass bunkers will hold any type of 4gate... I realize it's not terribly relevant to your point, but it's openings like yours that gets me so many free wins on ladder at the 6min mark.
edit:
On March 18 2011 07:23 GoodNewsJim wrote:
My friend owned a guy who went stalker/voids/ciarriers. Maybe I'll see if I can get his replays
I'm not sure a lot of people will want to watch a replay of a toss who reacts to mass banshees with voids and carriers... I'll give it the benefit of the doubt that you didn't explain it very well though, I'll watch it if you manage to find it.
|
On March 18 2011 07:26 GoodNewsJim wrote:
If they go Phoenixes, they basically need to triple gate to out produce your vikings. And like I said,"When you have vikings and bancheese together, it becomes an added problem for your opponent because the occassional scan is killing off observers."
My friend owned a guy who went stalker/voids/ciarriers. Maybe I'll see if I can get his replays.
Mass bancheese is really on par with mass muta.
He needs 1-2star max to hold even. Chronod phoenixes build almost twice as fast as vikings. I the obs shit is annoying but frankly phoenixes kill banshees so fast it doesn't even matter. With so much invested in air you will likely get rolled.
|
On March 18 2011 07:28 Garth wrote:
Also you will not have a spare 3-4 reactors waiting around to pump out mass vikings.
I'm not arguing against the possibility that Protoss can gain air superiority and win. Like I said in the initial post, if they go for Phoenix initially, it makes things into an air battle.
What I will say is: Terran will have 2 raxes which he can build reactors on, and he doesn't need the marines for much. So you will have 2 reactors to work off of at least if you need to crank up production.
|
My forum APM is low, misclick.
|
well with observer sniping, banshees are quite strong, they have nearly the dps of charged voidrays without having a charging time.
obviously they are weak against phoenixes but that is what cloak is for.
|
The marine/tank/banshee push is so damn powerful.. even HuK got raped by it on his stream last night (from Bomber I think??)
Whats cheaper... Marines and banshees, or collosus and phoenix.. Keep in mind, in order for collosus and phoenix's to even be useful, you need at least 4+ of each.. where as you can mass marines so easily..
Protoss has to BARELY scrape together enough units (plus pulling probes) vs even a 1a-2a-3a marine/banshee/tank timing push.. add in some scvs and its almost an instant gg vs even the top protoss like HuK
|
Banshees are more expensive and are slower to produce. They also do not benefit from reactors. Vikings are a relatively fast, dirty and effective response to collosus. Additionally vikings can harass by landing and are particularly effective when multi-pronging. They also provide good spotting for tanks.
I think a decent toss will be able to easily deal with banshees with stalkers (i think 7 stalkers 1 shot a banshee? could be wrong) esp + guardian sheild.
Also when you lose them they are not fast enough to reproduce.
My opinion at least
|
If you force the toss to dump tons and tons of gas in phoenix, haven't you already done part of what you want to do? Force him to put gas somewhere besides huge piles of colossi-stalker. You could get air upgrades, make vikings to match his phoenix (air armor upgrades really rock in viking v phoenix) and force him to drop a fleet beacon to keep up the upgrades.
Also, vikings ARE less gas than phoenix, even though they build slower, and you can reactor them (using your factory or w/e to build addons) and phoenix do have to be afraid of marine squads and turrets, whereas vikings are relatively more safe from stalker squads due to their huge range. Just don't let your vikings get caught in a losing battle, since phoenix can chase them down.
|
protoss has no need for stalkers with phoenix. phoenix colossus zealot kills you before you can transition.
|
Derp sounds exactly what I do!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190
What I don't like about your style of play is that you really can't afford it. Tanks + siege + marauders while massing banshees? Not feasible to pull off. I'd say my BO is a little more optimized ^_^
I've started to get really good with this style of play, even if the opponent opens with Phoenix. 4 Starports -> Vikings covers that part, and they don't have detection. Check it out and compare!
|
I used to do a build similar to this back when I played. I always had trouble though because i couldn't find solid openings that led into it (back when 1/1/1 was the norm) but the focus of the build centered around the midgame. Here are a few tips from my experience:
The opening doesn't matter too much as long as its safe and doesn't rely on factory tech too much(gas heavy and slows the transition).
Early on, you basically want to pour gas into something that's going to help you deal with what he has to counter your banshees(Which will probably be stalkers)
Openings that utilize marauders seemed to fair best as it discourages stalker production (This is back when voidrays were gods so marauder openings should synergize even better now)
Basically, do something that doesn't die to all ins but gets something to help later. If you have an early expand into bio build you like, it can transition very nicely into this strategy.
The nice thing about getting marauders earlier is that after you have your 2nd base you won't need to produce them and can instead get 4 starports while dumping minerals into marines and just a few marauders(If I remember right you can be building from 4 banshee starports with about 1 1/2 rax doing marauders if you sacrifice upgrades) With 4 starports you hit you 'critical mass' of banshees much faster(felt ok with 2 production cycles but really strong after 3+). Ive found that getting more banshees early leads to better results then trying to get early upgrades.
The nice thing about this build is that it forces the protoss to react, he can't just go colossus./stalker/sentry to stop it. If he has a ton of sentries, they are a lot less effective so hes getting much less bang for his buck. He can react by either going stargate tech, blink stalker, templar tech or some combination of the above(Its important to note that if for some reason the protoss didn't go robo, hes auto lost because of cloak).
If you're harassing a lot with your banshees(which you should be as it is the bread and butter of this build), most toss will go for the quickest dirtiest answer that utilizes units he has already built, blink tech. Once he has this, you really need to keep an eye on your banshees positioning. Try to abuse his sim city and cliffs so that you dont get into a stiuation where his giant stalker ball is right below your stack of banshees. If not harassing and fighting head on, marauders + banshees utterly destroy this even with colossus present. If he tries some cute forcefields to block off your marauders and isolate your banshees just back up with your banshees(while getting shots off) and use his own force fields against him. Remember banshees can be repaired, abuse this frequently.
Stargate tech isnt an easy transition but its faster than templar tech. The problem with it is he needs A LOT of stargates to stop you. If you see a stargate, all you really need to do is switch a production cycle or two (according to how many stargates youve scouted i.e. how many phoenixes or voids he plans to get) to vikings. If you dont scout it until phoenixes are attacking your banshees, hide behind your marines/turrets until you have the vikings you need. He's dumping a ridiculous amount of gas into countering your strategy, severely slowing down his colossus production(if he has any at all).
Templar tech is where things might get messy. A few storms will wipe out a stack of banshees while feedback will wipe out individual banshees. If he went directly templars, this would have presented a ridiculously large timing window for you to take a 3rd. Once you see templars, cloak and uncloak all of your banshees until they have 0 energy to prevent feedbacks. Try to dodge his army and pick off expansions more than ever(This build is amazing at picking off expos). Be sure to watch out for warp in storms as you harass expos as this can really hurt your build, force you to retreat for long periods of time or even destroy your entire banshee force if he has blink stalkers in the right positions(although apparently warp in storm is going to be nerfed so this build will be much stronger then).
If you do engage, try to fight directly over his army so that, if he does storm, he will damage his own army. Templars die extremely fast so focus them. A lot of battles will end up in a situation where all of his templars are dead and out of energy but you banshees have eaten so much storm damage that they are in the red. You may win the fight if you stay but you will lose a lot of banshees. Banshees take a lot longer to rebuild that warped in stalker. RETREAT AND REPAIR will using your ground force(mineral sink of marines and marauders). I cannot stress how important the tactic of retreating and repairing is throughout this strategy.
Basically sometime after you have a near critical mass of banshees, start building an expo(This will occur during the 'his plan to counter banshees' part of the game). Once you have the gases up at that expo start air upgrades(both). If you plan on staying with banshees add another 1-2 starports now(depends on the marauder banshee ratio you want and if you intend to go bio upgrades as well). However, another transition exists. On 4 starports and 3 bases you start building BCs. Start building an expo before(if you can afford it) or right after the BCs finish(This transition is SUPER gas hungry, you can't sustain it on 3 base without halting production for 10 seconds between waves of BCs so you need to be planning an expo). IF I remember right this timing is like this: once you have ~1000-1100 gas at the start of a banshee build cycle, throw down a fusion core right before your banshee build cycle(check your supply and stuff) then when the fusion core finishes, your banshees pop out and the next round of production is BCs. Research yamato. If the enemy has a lot of templars, just burn yamato on destructable rocks or something to stay low energy. You might think "Hey 1000 gas is a lot to save" but I like the 'surprise' wave of BCs as it can lead to a strong timing attack. This timing attack should be able to cover your expansion setup. Not much to say about BCs, theyre slow but basically rape every ground and air unit the protoss has by a-moving( as long as you have a few vikings if he went voids + templar)
Things I havent gotten a chance to try:
Newer early expand into bio builds that would work as a great opening.(Feels like they would really cover that building starport to getting banshee timing window that this build suffers from)
Switch a round or 2 of banshee production into dropships in preparation for a doom drop with your mineral sink bio units + banshees.
Hope this helps anyone trying to go sky-terran.
Edit:
On March 18 2011 08:49 Synystyr wrote:Derp sounds exactly what I do! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190What I don't like about your style of play is that you really can't afford it. Tanks + siege + marauders while massing banshees? Not feasible to pull off. I'd say my BO is a little more optimized ^_^ I've started to get really good with this style of play, even if the opponent opens with Phoenix. 4 Starports -> Vikings covers that part, and they don't have detection. Check it out and compare!
Your build sounds a lot like the one I used to do, really cool dude. I never tried ravens and thors before banshees(tried ravens to hunt obs and pdd but never more than that). Sounds really bang bang dead if they go colossus but tricky vs templar. Less harassment oriented as you have a later critical mass but I want to try it 
|
They don't stack on a cliff. I've noticed that also. Valid and good point.
But, what if they just blink underneath you?
|
I used to play exactly this style, until a protoss responded by making three colossi, and mass mass stalkers. He then -moved (blinked) and won the game- with me having a 2 base advantage (that had paid for themselves).
The ratio is 3 stalkers= 2 banshees. Extensive unit tester confirms.
|
1. This is the synyster build.
2. Having played against this, phoenix zealot collosus will tear this up.
|
Your build relies on the ability to fast expand against protoss, which is becoming harder by the day. Protoss has numerous one base options to bust a terran fe even if there are 3 bunkers. They can go void ray and bust it, one base collosus and bust it, or even 3 gate robo with immortals with good micro can bust it.
Also by the time you build up this big banshee force, the toss could (should) have templar tech out which will ANNIHILATE banshees.
IMO there isn't a good unit composition for late game terran against protoss. As long as the protoss responds well and plays smart, he can hard counter pretty much any unit composition you can come up with. People will be quick to say siege tanks, but the problem with tanks is that they are super immobile and are hard countered by chargelots and immortals. Tanks are only useful in the early midgame when protoss prolly doesn't have charge and his zealot count is pretty low (See GSL).
Lately ive been thinking about a way to use bc with raven support to take on protoss. Maybe use Yamato Cannon to take out collosus. But it just doesn't seem viable right now because the bc is just too slow. A good toss will not engage the bc's at all and will just avoid battle, similar with siege tanks. Not to mention that u need a certain amount of bc's for them to actually be good.
3400 Master Terran
|
PDD makes this build a lot stronger. Incorporating a few ravens, while gas intensive, can pay for themselves with the amount of damage they will block.
|
What about blink stalkers / feedback? Seems like a hard counter to me.
|
|
|
Banshee is a build order not a counter. You need to start building before you ever see a colossus on the field of battle, and it'll change your army mix and strategy. Building banshess to counter a large colossus ball with no air support simply takes too long to respond as a counter.
Vikings counter colossus. Reactor starports are great because medivacs are great. They also can respond swiftly to counter colossus by dumping out 2x viking if/when you see them. A bio army or even a bio/mech army gets great synergy from using reactor starports and swapping to viking production once they see a couple colossus on the field.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
