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Speedling FE:
Spends 250 Minerals and 100 gas the moment the spawning pool finishes (Queen+Metabolic Boost)
The OP's build spends 150 Minerals and 100 Gas the moment the spawning pool finishes (lair)
This means he can get a faster expo
The drawback to this earlier expo is that it's protected by slow zerglings. This makes the early game more difficult, but the trade-off is that you'll have a stronger mid-game.
Early game aggression will be harder to stop due to the delayed speed upgrade. This is not game breaking for the same reason that 14FE can survive early game aggression.
The delayed queen will be painful because that will mean that you'll be larva starved in the early game. Hopefully the faster second hatch will alleviate some of those worries.
As an opening build order I like that it holds a lot of promise. As for upgrading Overlord Speed; as much as I like the idea I'm wondering what the advantage of the upgrade is over simply getting an overseer? If you build an overseer first you can also be building a queen at the same time. The early Overseer might even hurt an opponent's opening build if you can goop up their town hall.
I made a suggestion earlier about Spine Crawlers being used for defense with the help of Overlord Creep Spread. To be more specific, this is to help you position spine crawlers where there normally aren't any. 1-2 at the top of the ramp supported by zerglings will fend off a lot. 1-2 standing by a morphing hatchery will give you some kind of defense for your natural.
These are not spine crawlers that you depend upon for dear life; the reason I suggest it is because with the delayed Metabolic Boost you're going to need an ace up your sleeve to help against strong early aggression.
However, what I find the most exciting about this build order is as a reaction to Forge FE builds. Instead of busting with roaches/banelings or double expanding, I like the idea of an early lair allowing you to harass the main with Mutalisk/Nydus. I also like the idea that you could get fast Hydras against stargate tech. I like the chance for a fast Infestor against Bio builds. Or even little things like Baneling Busting with Centrifugal Hooks.
I also think that this would fit with the more JulyZerg style play of heavy aggression and strong 1-2 base attacks. If you don't have the goal to make 80-90 drones then having earlier tech and a delayed economy might open up doors not normally open to Zerg.
Overall I love the idea.
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This isn't the best idea. Delaying ling speed makes it extremely difficult to hold off early pressure from both Stalkers and Hellions.
I honestly don't see what the problem is anyway - it's really not that hard to scout most all-ins provided you know what to look for.
If this were coupled with some kind of early drop play I think it might have some potential, but killing your early defense and economy just for easier scouting doesn't seem the best move to me. Man up and sacrifice an Overlord.
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On March 16 2011 10:53 lorkac wrote:
Speedling FE:
Spends 250 Minerals and 100 gas the moment the spawning pool finishes (Queen+Metabolic Boost)
The OP's build spends 150 Minerals and 100 Gas the moment the spawning pool finishes (lair)
This means he can get a faster expo
The drawback to this earlier expo is that it's protected by slow zerglings. This makes the early game more difficult, but the trade-off is that you'll have a stronger mid-game.
Early game aggression will be harder to stop due to the delayed speed upgrade. This is not game breaking for the same reason that 14FE can survive early game aggression.
The delayed queen will be painful because that will mean that you'll be larva starved in the early game. Hopefully the faster second hatch will alleviate some of those worries.
As an opening build order I like that it holds a lot of promise. As for upgrading Overlord Speed; as much as I like the idea I'm wondering what the advantage of the upgrade is over simply getting an overseer? If you build an overseer first you can also be building a queen at the same time. The early Overseer might even hurt an opponent's opening build if you can goop up their town hall.
I made a suggestion earlier about Spine Crawlers being used for defense with the help of Overlord Creep Spread. To be more specific, this is to help you position spine crawlers where there normally aren't any. 1-2 at the top of the ramp supported by zerglings will fend off a lot. 1-2 standing by a morphing hatchery will give you some kind of defense for your natural.
These are not spine crawlers that you depend upon for dear life; the reason I suggest it is because with the delayed Metabolic Boost you're going to need an ace up your sleeve to help against strong early aggression.
However, what I find the most exciting about this build order is as a reaction to Forge FE builds. Instead of busting with roaches/banelings or double expanding, I like the idea of an early lair allowing you to harass the main with Mutalisk/Nydus. I also like the idea that you could get fast Hydras against stargate tech. I like the chance for a fast Infestor against Bio builds. Or even little things like Baneling Busting with Centrifugal Hooks.
I also think that this would fit with the more JulyZerg style play of heavy aggression and strong 1-2 base attacks. If you don't have the goal to make 80-90 drones then having earlier tech and a delayed economy might open up doors not normally open to Zerg.
Overall I love the idea.
Now this I potentially like. If you can do it in response to something, and only THEN rush an overseer (not OL speed), then you could be giving yourself a tangible advantage due to contamination on whatever vital tech he is rushing (assuming you know this from your own scouting).
I still don't see the point in skipping zergling speed though. There simply isn't anything your opponent can be doing that you can't both scout and counter by ramp poking and early OL sac. If he's able to deny, then with the lair you should already be getting with your next 100 gas, you can get an overseer at a semi-normal time, albeit slightly earlier time.
But by then we've come so far from the OP, it's just a "get an overseer as soon as lair pops" which is what most players who like scouting information do anyway.
The issue here is as you said: You're gimping drone production by omitting the queen, and defending an expansion with slow zerglings that further gimp your drone production.
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On March 16 2011 10:04 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:01 orotoss wrote:
One advantage I see to this strategy is that you can sit an overlord at your opponents expansion and spew creep before they expand. They will most likely chase off your overlord but the creep takes a while to dissipate, delaying their expansion. Could work great against sentry fast expands and 2 rax expands.
Also, I use to mess around with a build on delta quadrant and lost temple where I would drop like 4 or 5 drones on the natural cliffs and build a couple spines and a spore on the spewed creep to harass the expansion and force air units or long ranged units.
There are so many ways to utilize early overlord speed. This would also allow for a very quick creep highway if you wanted to do a 2 base hydra push. Yes, and this will encourage/reinforce the 1-base aggression they are already planning on doing because you rushed tech AND went for an expansion. I consider myself a pretty out-of-the-box zerg thinker, at least moreso than many other players. Rushing Overlord Speed is a very stupid idea.
Dude, this build speeds up tech by delaying a queen. Everything else is about the same as any other 1 base build. You don't have speedlings, true, but neither does a 14Hatch FE. Unless you're willing to say that 14hatch is stupid, you don't really have ground to stand on.
The general gist is this.
(Queen and Zergling Speed) is juxtaposed with (Lair and Overseer)
That's the change. That's it. Everything else works the same.
250 Minerals 100 Gas vs 200 Minerals 200 Gas
I don't really understand why you're upset about this.
-------
(deleted)
EDIT:
My bad, I misread the name 
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Michael: You're right. That was rather bad mannered. Especially since you didn't even watch the replay.
Well first off, that wasn't a friend of mine. That was a random person on the custom games in Xel'Nega Caverns search. And since he had over 500 games played in 1v1, I'd say his MMR is rather static, so I wouldn't really discredit him as a player.
Secondly: I recognized that no terran will follow through with marines after he scouts I didn't hatch first. That's exactly why he didn't. And even though I made the blunder of over linging and putting down a crawler, I still caught up, and widely surpassed my terran opponent economically.
Thirdly: He didn't hellion harass a 1-base zerg. This is another proof you didn't watch the replay. I threw down an expo at 22, he saw that. He saw I only had lings for a defense at the time, and last I checked, blue flame hellions pretty much decimate lings with good micro and not letting them get surrounded (Especially if you have medivacs to pick them up when they do get surrounded).
Fourth: I didn't say the is incontrovertible evidence that this build is the omega of Zerg builds. I basically said, I tested this build which I have now tweaked against the worst case scenario the opposition has put at me "A 2 rax or a 4 gate" which all of the first page cried would "end me", which it clearly didn't, and my speedling time proves a 4 gate wouldn't, but rather this is totally a feasible idea that with tweaking can be a "back-pocket" build.
Fifth: Being in the dark as Zerg is basically GG. So "just making queens" maybe isn't the best idea. Say what you want but there are simply too many things a person can do if you don't know his full base to assume anti-air will be the right answer.
Sixth: No, not everything I found out could have been obtained from a slow overlord. I would have seen a factory finishing, and not know what attachment would be going on it, nor would I have seen the starport put down a tad later. This is because "sacing an ovie" does what it sounds: sacrifices the overlord. To get another one in decent position in time takes waay to long.
Seventh: I think you're just being immature when you call the idea of quick lairing with a purpose "I just pulled my CD out the box" thinking. It's not like he's doing 1 base muta, he's doing an incredibly adaptable scouting build. This isn't some sort of cheese that relies on poor scouting, it's a playstyle. A very safe one at that.
So I'm going to let my numbers and my replays at a very high level of play speak for themselves, and leave the rest up to discussion by people better than me. But until I see some concrete evidence otherwise, hell yeah I'm going to experiment and tweak this build more.
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On March 16 2011 11:01 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:53 lorkac wrote:
Speedling FE:
Spends 250 Minerals and 100 gas the moment the spawning pool finishes (Queen+Metabolic Boost)
The OP's build spends 150 Minerals and 100 Gas the moment the spawning pool finishes (lair)
This means he can get a faster expo
The drawback to this earlier expo is that it's protected by slow zerglings. This makes the early game more difficult, but the trade-off is that you'll have a stronger mid-game.
Early game aggression will be harder to stop due to the delayed speed upgrade. This is not game breaking for the same reason that 14FE can survive early game aggression.
The delayed queen will be painful because that will mean that you'll be larva starved in the early game. Hopefully the faster second hatch will alleviate some of those worries.
As an opening build order I like that it holds a lot of promise. As for upgrading Overlord Speed; as much as I like the idea I'm wondering what the advantage of the upgrade is over simply getting an overseer? If you build an overseer first you can also be building a queen at the same time. The early Overseer might even hurt an opponent's opening build if you can goop up their town hall.
I made a suggestion earlier about Spine Crawlers being used for defense with the help of Overlord Creep Spread. To be more specific, this is to help you position spine crawlers where there normally aren't any. 1-2 at the top of the ramp supported by zerglings will fend off a lot. 1-2 standing by a morphing hatchery will give you some kind of defense for your natural.
These are not spine crawlers that you depend upon for dear life; the reason I suggest it is because with the delayed Metabolic Boost you're going to need an ace up your sleeve to help against strong early aggression.
However, what I find the most exciting about this build order is as a reaction to Forge FE builds. Instead of busting with roaches/banelings or double expanding, I like the idea of an early lair allowing you to harass the main with Mutalisk/Nydus. I also like the idea that you could get fast Hydras against stargate tech. I like the chance for a fast Infestor against Bio builds. Or even little things like Baneling Busting with Centrifugal Hooks.
I also think that this would fit with the more JulyZerg style play of heavy aggression and strong 1-2 base attacks. If you don't have the goal to make 80-90 drones then having earlier tech and a delayed economy might open up doors not normally open to Zerg.
Overall I love the idea. Now this I potentially like. If you can do it in response to something, and only THEN rush an overseer (not OL speed), then you could be giving yourself a tangible advantage due to contamination on whatever vital tech he is rushing (assuming you know this from your own scouting). I still don't see the point in skipping zergling speed though. There simply isn't anything your opponent can be doing that you can't both scout and counter by ramp poking and early OL sac. If he's able to deny, then with the lair you should already be getting with your next 100 gas, you can get an overseer at a semi-normal time, albeit slightly earlier time. But by then we've come so far from the OP, it's just a "get an overseer as soon as lair pops" which is what most players who like scouting information do anyway. The issue here is as you said: You're gimping drone production by omitting the queen, and defending an expansion with slow zerglings that further gimp your drone production.
I normally skip Ling Speed when I plan to go heavy roaches and transition into lair tech, forgoing the upgrade until the midgame while my Spire is busy being built. This is because I prefer using a 14Hatch15Pool opening that delays gas.
However, I have been having troubles playing against FFE builds that transition into Phoenixes. Queens are good, but not that good. This has been such a problem that getting an evo chamber is par for the course as a response to FFE.
What I really want is for Zerg to have a big power unit at lair tech the same way that the Lurker was. If the infestor can take over that role, then I can see this build becoming very successful.
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On March 16 2011 11:10 Jeffbelittle wrote:
Sixth: I think you're just being immature when you call the idea of quick lairing with a purpose "I just pulled my CD out the box" thinking. It's not like he's doing 1 base muta, he's doing an incredibly adaptable scouting build. This isn't some sort of cheese that relies on poor scouting, it's a playstyle. A very safe one at that.
Protoss who get an early Robo normally get themselves an observer for scouting.
San during his game against Nestea in the round of 32 of the GSL March produced a lot of Observers from him his robotics instead of Collosus and he went on to beat the best zerg in the world.
Early scout builds are very strong.
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On March 16 2011 11:03 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:04 michaelhasanalias wrote:On March 16 2011 10:01 orotoss wrote:
One advantage I see to this strategy is that you can sit an overlord at your opponents expansion and spew creep before they expand. They will most likely chase off your overlord but the creep takes a while to dissipate, delaying their expansion. Could work great against sentry fast expands and 2 rax expands.
Also, I use to mess around with a build on delta quadrant and lost temple where I would drop like 4 or 5 drones on the natural cliffs and build a couple spines and a spore on the spewed creep to harass the expansion and force air units or long ranged units.
There are so many ways to utilize early overlord speed. This would also allow for a very quick creep highway if you wanted to do a 2 base hydra push. Yes, and this will encourage/reinforce the 1-base aggression they are already planning on doing because you rushed tech AND went for an expansion. I consider myself a pretty out-of-the-box zerg thinker, at least moreso than many other players. Rushing Overlord Speed is a very stupid idea. Dude, this build speeds up tech by delaying a queen. Everything else is about the same as any other 1 base build. You don't have speedlings, true, but neither does a 14Hatch FE. Unless you're willing to say that 14hatch is stupid, you don't really have ground to stand on. The general gist is this. (Queen and Zergling Speed) is juxtaposed with (Lair and Overseer) That's the change. That's it. Everything else works the same. 250 Minerals 100 Gas vs 200 Minerals 200 Gas I don't really understand why you're upset about this. ------- (deleted) EDIT: My bad, I misread the name
Alright well i'm done ranting about how bad this thread is after this post.
You guys keep comparing this to something else, and then saying "well that something else isn't that bad."
14hatch FE doesn't have ling speed, but it trades earlier ling speed for a very strong economy.
This isn't JUST skipping a queen, it's skipping a queen, losing 10 larva, 100-200 minerals of mining time at a critical point in the game, sacrificing map control AND delaying an expansion.... all for the sake of scouting information in the HOPE of revealing key information.
What happens when your opponent is playing extremely standard and has nothing of value to reveal? You just mortgaged your house in the hope that you can counter him but he just attacks you and kills you.
Lastly, getting a lair AFTER speed, and then just getting an overseer immediately would be faster than what OP suggests. And speed --> lair --> overseer is extremely standard.
The difference is that speed --> lair ---> overseer doesn't give up map control, it doesn't gimp larva, and it doesn't delay the expansion needlessly.
Information is clearly the premium in this game, but it's not like he's on an island... you can get most of the information you need for free. Why gimp yourself so hard to try and get more information that adequate scouting would already reveal?
(And on a minor note, the logical reasoning advocate in me would like to point out that saying "that's it" doesn't make something minor. Delaying a queen and expo that long AND ling speed for map control is very significant.)
On March 16 2011 11:10 Jeffbelittle wrote:
So I'm going to let my numbers and my replays at a very high level of play speak for themselves, and leave the rest up to discussion by people better than me. But until I see some concrete evidence otherwise, hell yeah I'm going to experiment and tweak this build more.
Okay good luck!!
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I'm not saying that it's a great build. As I have said, it has lots of *potential* and I really like where it's going as a build (early tech in favor of econ)
And yes, the differences *are* minor.
Yes you loose map control.
Yes you lose larva injects.
I really like the early lair. Most likely you're right that the early Overseer is pointless. Most likely you're right that the loss of map control will have an adverse affect on the Zerg metagame (specifically on how Zerg handles early aggression and prevent Protoss/Terran fast expand builds).
Yes, this build is not a fast expand build.
Yes, this build is not an aggressive build that applies the threat of SpeedLings to maintain map control.
So far you have been accurate at describing that this build order is not the same as the standard builds. So far you've been able to point out the flaws of the build, the limitations of the build.
Now that you have all that stuff off your chest, maybe we can start trying to make something happen?
The core of the build is getting an early lair. This means 3 very important things.
-You can't remove drones from gas because Lair tech needs gas. Not just morphing the lair, but the benefits the lair gives needs gas. This means that you will have less mineral overall than a normal 14Gas14Pool build. This is not so bad since you will have less larva early on than all other standard 1base build orders.
-No early zergling speed. It's very possible to stop early aggression such as 4gates and 2rax builds without Zergling Speed. This is not done by simply "building more zerglings." The ZvX early game would have to be completely reworked in order for this build to be viable--but I feel that this isn't too impossible a mountain to climb.
-The expansion is not delayed, but it will be unprotected. 14Hatch works because it's built early to provide creep that is necessary to defend against early pressure. Speedling builds work because map control gained by early lings allows you to safely expand at 22 supply. This build's expansion provides neither the early creep of 14Hatch nor the early speed of a Speedling FE. This means that the build needs to be specific and not macro-centric. This means that the build will have to be one based centric as well as dependent on a tech "trick" to allow you to gain an advantage over your opponent. This is akin to DT rushes and Banshee rushes depending on fast tech to allow the Protoss/Terran player to get an early advantage over the opponent.
These three problems are the ones I feel are the biggest hurdles to the build. But I don't believe them to be insurmountable.
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I tried out fast lair + overseer with this build order:
9 overlord
11 pool
11 extractor
12 extractor
14 lair
oveseer at lair completion
I can contaminate a cyber core researching warpgate at 5:24. It could be even earlier if someone with better base mechanics does it. The earliest warpgate research completion I've seen in my replays is 5:26. Is that the definite earliest? If so, this build could potentially delay a 4 gate push long enough to get ling speed and an adequate army.
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hey again guys, thanks so much for the feedback.
Let's try and keep the conversation critical please. No nonsense.
Anyways, i'm liking what i'm reading. As i previously wrote, this is NOT refined at all, but i suspected some good could come from it. With what i've read so far, i think some good has come of it, at least at the level i play at.
not skipping the queen and getting an overseer is a great idea. Getting ling speed right after lair is a great idea as well. I'll try out both.
Please keep in mind that this is something we can all work on. I've read some really encouraging things from you guys and i'd like to see it keep going.
For those interested: try out different variations and see how you can make a fast lair work in zerg match ups.
Thanks guys!
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On March 16 2011 12:11 lorkac wrote:
This is akin to DT rushes and Banshee rushes depending on fast tech to allow the Protoss/Terran player to get an early advantage over the opponent.
The reason banshee and DT openings are stable is because they give you map control that allows you to safely expand behind the pressure. The zerg equivalent of this is the uberstandard speedling expand. There is no lair tech that would be so much better in this regard to justify a greatly delayed expansion.
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On March 16 2011 14:34 JaqMs wrote:
I tried out fast lair + overseer with this build order:
9 overlord
11 pool
11 extractor
12 extractor
14 lair
oveseer at lair completion
I can contaminate a cyber core researching warpgate at 5:24. It could be even earlier if someone with better base mechanics does it. The earliest warpgate research completion I've seen in my replays is 5:26. Is that the definite earliest? If so, this build could potentially delay a 4 gate push long enough to get ling speed and an adequate army.
How much gas do you have by the time your lair finishes?
Could you have gotten ling speed before the lair finished and still be able to get an overseer?
After you start your lair, do you think it would be beneficial to pull drones off gas at some point? 100gas if you're just planning to morph in an overseer? 200gas if you're getting lingspeed+overseer?
If you didn't get an Overseer do you think you could start getting infestors? (Gas wise)
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I think this leaves you very vulnerable to early pressure. You're going to be late with a queen if you get lair asap. Waiting for 2 queens off a late natural expansion means your creep spread will be terrible, and your early game larva production is bad as well. Speedlings, Stalkers, Marines or Helions will be able to dance around your slowlings, potentially causing a lot of damage. You won't be able to block a ramp with queens until late.
That said, OL speed is great for scouting. Have you tried queen->Lair->OL speed with an earlier drone scout and some lings at the front? Knowing the basics like "Has he taken gas?" "Has he expanded?" can usually put you through to the midgame where you can start using those fast OLs to really nail down your opponent's plan.
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On March 16 2011 14:34 JaqMs wrote:
I tried out fast lair + overseer with this build order:
9 overlord
11 pool
11 extractor
12 extractor
14 lair
oveseer at lair completion
I can contaminate a cyber core researching warpgate at 5:24. It could be even earlier if someone with better base mechanics does it. The earliest warpgate research completion I've seen in my replays is 5:26. Is that the definite earliest? If so, this build could potentially delay a 4 gate push long enough to get ling speed and an adequate army.
A perfect korean 4 gate (I know its not done vs zerg very often, but hypothetically) warpgate will finish at 5:05. Gate on 10 into 4 gate (cutting at 20 probes) with has it at 5:15. Gate on 13 into 4 gate (cutting at 20 probes) I belive has it at 5:30.
Bearing in mind these are all when the research finishes, not when the gates are turned into warpgates (+10 seconds). But the research is finished by this point and so the overseer might well be in time to stop warpgate as long as they went 13 gate.
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On March 16 2011 14:34 JaqMs wrote:
I tried out fast lair + overseer with this build order:
9 overlord
11 pool
11 extractor
12 extractor
14 lair
oveseer at lair completion
I can contaminate a cyber core researching warpgate at 5:24. It could be even earlier if someone with better base mechanics does it. The earliest warpgate research completion I've seen in my replays is 5:26. Is that the definite earliest? If so, this build could potentially delay a 4 gate push long enough to get ling speed and an adequate army.
Opponent scouts no units, 12 drones, and lair off double gas, check.
Opponent kills you with 1 zealot.
On March 16 2011 14:50 ultoma wrote:
hey again guys, thanks so much for the feedback.
Let's try and keep the conversation critical please. No nonsense.
Anyways, i'm liking what i'm reading. As i previously wrote, this is NOT refined at all, but i suspected some good could come from it. With what i've read so far, i think some good has come of it, at least at the level i play at.
not skipping the queen and getting an overseer is a great idea. Getting ling speed right after lair is a great idea as well. I'll try out both.
Please keep in mind that this is something we can all work on. I've read some really encouraging things from you guys and i'd like to see it keep going.
For those interested: try out different variations and see how you can make a fast lair work in zerg match ups.
Thanks guys!
I think if you can reword your OP or even rewrite it to reflect your opinions in this post, it would warrant some good discussion.
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On March 16 2011 05:52 CookieMaker wrote:
OP better please. Ways to do this include:
1. Posting replays
2. Posting replays
3. Posting replays
4. Elaborate on your build order
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Hey OP, you know after our conversation I've been tweaking this build a lot and check this out:
In my 15 gas opening, I got my first 100 gas @3:25, and my next 100 gas at @4:15.
As I said before, it's pivotal you do indeed get your queen whether it be for creep spread for a well-placed spine crawler to stop any bunkering or the actual injects to not fall behind at all economically. The queen build time is 50 seconds, and if a queen is building you can't lair.
THEREFORE: You can actually grab speed with your first 100 gas, get a queen, and your next 100 gas be a lair, and it wouldn't change my overseer times WHATSOEVER; however, you'd have speed nearly a minute faster, which means you'd have it at around 5:35, which is in time for any early game non-sense (4 gates, what have you) AND you'd still have an overseer at @5:44, a perfect time to scout an enemy protoss or terran base.
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The problem I see with getting early lair is you have to either delay the queen or delay the lair. Then the lair itself isn't a big setback (only 50 more minerals than speed) but when you add another 100/100 for ovie speed on top of the fact that you have no economy to really further use the lair it's a pretty big setback.
Then combine that with the fact that most games you aren't going to see anything you wouldn't have been able to know about with the standard drone/ling poke/slow overlord poke and this seems it will just very very rarely be worth it. Even worse you fast overlord will spot things but you won't have the economy or upgrades to stop some of them. I can't imagine stopping a 4gate with this among other things.
It would be good against more tech-ish "cheese" like cloaked banshees or quick void ray but once again if you are able to scout those with more standard methods you are then in a better position to hold them off.
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On March 18 2011 00:00 Jeffbelittle wrote:
Hey OP, you know after our conversation I've been tweaking this build a lot and check this out:
In my 15 gas opening, I got my first 100 gas @3:25, and my next 100 gas at @4:15.
As I said before, it's pivotal you do indeed get your queen whether it be for creep spread for a well-placed spine crawler to stop any bunkering or the actual injects to not fall behind at all economically. The queen build time is 50 seconds, and if a queen is building you can't lair.
THEREFORE: You can actually grab speed with your first 100 gas, get a queen, and your next 100 gas be a lair, and it wouldn't change my overseer times WHATSOEVER; however, you'd have speed nearly a minute faster, which means you'd have it at around 5:35, which is in time for any early game non-sense (4 gates, what have you) AND you'd still have an overseer at @5:44, a perfect time to scout an enemy protoss or terran base.
could you post a rep?
Something like this warrants discussion, Overseer rush...
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EPT
