I've been toying around with getting lair on the first 100 gas and overlord speed on the 100 gas. I delay my zergling speed after these first 2 upgrades. Has anyone played around with something like this?
I've been catching cheese much easier, since i have overlords going over my opponents base every 30 seconds or so. I've had ppl cancel buildings to throw me off, but with the overlord speed, you can go back for another look and catch ppl playing mind games.
What do you guys think about something like this? I have refined it at all, but getting lair really quickly has many great benefits. You can get roach speed so much faster and you're not susceptible to a lot of cheeses.
I do only offrace zerg, so there are definitely more suitable posters, but the more important question is are you opening hatch first?
My assumption is no, and your opting for a delayed 2nd hatch as well as just slow zerglings which just get kited by everything. I think hatch first (especially on the new maps) into speedlings into speedovis is much more solid...especially if you get a quick +1. More often then not the only clue you need is whether they expanded (not to mention you can usually steal the 2nd gas)..
This doesn’t seem like a terrible idea, but it definitely makes it hard to deal with any really early pressure since you will be producing roaches later and have slowlings. For this to work out you would have to put up some serious static defense. You are not skipping a queen production or the FE right?
How much success do you have with this build against early pressure builds such as a 4gate or a 2 rax marine bunker play?
I really think that you might have something here, except that it may be worth getting ling speed first to use them to pressure/scout, and then once lings are not a viable option then the overlords with speed would be a good way to scout as zerg. This would slow your transition to speed roaches, but i belive you would find that you have more map control.
From a Toss point of view, if your not applying pressure with early speed lings trying to bait forcefeilds, i think the amount of forcefeilds i would have saved up would be quite able to combat speed roaches.
There is really no point to sacrifice so much to tech this early. There is nothing you can't see by just saccing an overlord around the 5 minute mark. And skipping speed? You are just asking to die to any kind of early push.
I agree, as much as having those upgrades is a boon your general economy will be stunted with out dealing any damage to them. I forsee you getting all these upgrades just to get run over by a small force because you don't have enough stuff. Maybe if you used the overlord goop to make spines at his entrance. But again its very gimmicky.
You just need to make sure you aren't getting hit by anything early because your early game will be very weak but your midgame will be great.
I'd recommend that you toy around with this more, but a few suggestions. - Getting drop really fast. Really fast. Maybe try some infestor + 4 zerglings to just wreck a mineral line. (I know people will think to just get banelings, but you might as well get tech. - Roach/infestor play with tunneling claws.It's like getting cloak at seven minutes lol. - Getting some spine crawlers. - Using the surprise of the tech units to double-expand perhaps
Sorry if these aren't the best suggestions, it's an unusual build. Still, work on it, SC2 needs more diversity.
Like i said, it's not something i've hardly refined and I know that any early pressure will be hard to stop. To be frank, i got tired of being cheesed and thought this up randomly. Now, i'm putting it to the test.
I skip my queen for a quick lair and get overlord speed before my first queen. This doesn't mean that what i'm doing is right, it just means i'm still trying out all the variables. I expo later (early 20 food).
Also, any early pressure that comes my way, i rely on static defense and a lot of slow lings. Because i won't have speed, i'm hoping the sheer number of slow lings will stop the pressure.
Again, this has it's problems and i know that, but i'm trying to figure out a way to stop cheese. Btw, you can catch 4 gate with relative ease and even though you might now have speed up, you'll definitely have more units since you'll know that a 4 gate is coming.
So, i suppose you make urself somewhat vulnerable in order to catch a cheese or 4 gate much, much earlier.
let me know what you guys think. I'll be toying around with this in some custom games.
This is not viable at all. You will delay your expo/mine less minerals. You will die to any 2rax pressure that is followed up with an allin, since you simply won't have any banelings. Your zergling speed will be tremendously delayed. You will die to any 4gate. In fact you will die to any heavly early pressure. You will also have your lair way before you need it. You simply don't need speed roaches that early. Not even speaking about mutas you couldn't afford anyways.
To be honest though; With no inject from no queen you WILL lose to a push, but you could do without the zergling speed with the right preparations.
If you dont FE with this, you will most likely need a queen before you start lair.
Else, off one base, what you scout couldn't matter less when you will never have the economy you should due to your ignoring zerg's macro mechanic.
In zvz it might work off one base but you would need spines, and you would need your queen before ovie speed. I'm 100% sure of that.
In zvp and zvt, i think that you most likely need your queen before hand if its off one base. If its off a fast expand, you could do with getting your queen there and defending with all spines, or roaches or something.
Its a cool idea because you can get really quick scouting and even contaminates.
How do you plan on stopping a well timed 4gate with slowlings and no speedwhatsoever? I don't know the exact timing, but assuming you get lair + oviespeed asap, isn't it already too late? It doesn't actually help defending a 4gate whatsoever. If I see a zerg on 1 base and fast teching to lair, a 1base timing push often wins or massively cripply him right there. Slowlings vs FFs is also not really ideal if the opponent doesn't decide to all in you.
Guys, if i'm doing anything wrong with this post, you can take it down. I have to be honest: i made an assumption that i could come here and just discuss a strategy i'm using. If that's against the rules, you can take it down.
Anywho, if it isn't, i just posted a replay. This replay is literally the 3rd time i tried it, so it needs a lot of work. But, you can get a feel for what i'm roughing trying to achieve.
Please feel free to try it yourself and come back here and give details and how we can make something like this work. It needs a lot of work, but perhaps some good can come from it.
scouting the front. You can see a lot by having a ling on his ramp, also he needs to make a proxy pylon, have a speedling patrol around the map and two on the xel'naga. You seem afraid of early pressure builds, but what if they get an expo you can't go bust them down or beat them in the eco game. Also if you can defend a 4gate or whatever has you with this build, you'd be able to defend it and be so far ahead he would have to GG or play a painful game where you just overrun him at 10min mark
Your basicly getting early tech to delay everything else, if your going for this build you NEED to get banelings and use droblings with success to get ahead else your going to be so behind.
Also mind you, Gas is not a free resource, it comes at the cost of minerals early game.
I really don't think this is that great a strategy. Against protoss in particular, by the time your speed upgraded overlorder floats over their base, they should be just about ready for a 4gate. I think you would have a hard time holding it off unless you have been preparing for the 4gate anyways. But if you have been doing that, why do this fast ovie speed build at all?
Also, if the opponent does some sort of early expand build, I think you will be significantly behind since you won't be able to pressure him as well with speedless lings.
If this gets scouted, you're dead, and that's generally not a good way to play strategy games. It might be a good cheese against players who don't scout well if you have a strong 2base all-in planned off your early lair tech. Using this solely to scout better seems like a bad idea.
If this works at your level in preventing cheese and you feel the scouting information is worth it, then just do it.
You'll actually learn how to read opponents better, for times when you can't full scout, since you'll find, conclusively, what they're really doing each time.
We see you trying stuff that isnt "standard", and being creative trying new options! Alot of hate follows the OP but its from people who are stuck in the "standard". Meaning if you try to think outside of the box you insta lose.
Keep being positive, pefecting this type of builds in certain situations, it wont work in all cases, but your attempting to think outside of the box
On March 16 2011 05:33 ultoma wrote: I've been toying around with getting lair on the first 100 gas and overlord speed on the 100 gas. I delay my zergling speed after these first 2 upgrades. [...] I've been catching cheese much easier, since i have overlords going over my opponents base every 30 seconds or so.
Sure, this allows you to scout with relative ease, but aren't you leaving yourself extremely vulnerable to cheese by delaying your Metabolic Boost? It appears that you can see the cheese coming, but you can't do anything to stop it.
On March 16 2011 05:51 ultoma wrote: I skip my queen for a quick lair and get overlord speed before my first queen.
Skipping your queen is even worse. You'll be far behind in larvae, and thus behind in BOTH economy and army. Not to mention that the lack of a queen allows for a Void Ray or Reaper rush to kill you easily, even if you can see it coming.
On March 16 2011 05:51 ultoma wrote: I know that any early pressure will be hard to stop. To be frank, i got tired of being cheesed and thought this up randomly. [...] i'm trying to figure out a way to stop cheese. You can catch 4 gate with relative ease [...] So, i suppose you make urself somewhat vulnerable in order to catch a cheese or 4 gate much, much earlier. [...] Also, any early pressure that comes my way, i rely on static defense and a lot of slow lings. Because i won't have speed, i'm hoping the sheer number of slow lings will stop the pressure.
Sure, you can scout a 4gate, but by skipping a queen, how will you have enough units to defend against it? Again, at this point you can see the cheese coming, but you can't do anything to stop it. I don't think making yourself more vulnerable to cheese is the way to counter cheese.
On March 16 2011 06:00 lorkac wrote: Would forgoing overlord speed and instead depending on spine crawlers built on overlord creep be a good way to expand?
Spend 100 gas on an Overseer to allow for faster queen production.
Depend on Infestor/Spines to survive into the midgame?
This is all theorycraft of course, when I have time I'll test it on 1v1obs.
No. Spine crawlers take forever to build, and they'll die off quickly if the pooping overlord gets sniped. And what will you do if the enemy goes around your spines?
Overlord drops (blings) on worker lines are very effective early and if you can catch a lone pylon powering 4 gates or such xD
So, yeah. You can use many spines for defense, though it depends on the map. Perhaps a 1 base play would work well? Overlords are hard to kill and P's aa is really expensive (gas heavy)
I see no reason not to get the queen, wouldn't the small delay of the lair (but having a queen and thus production powers) be worth the small rind it delays?
On March 16 2011 06:19 br0fivE wrote: I like your style OP
We see you trying stuff that isnt "standard", and being creative trying new options! Alot of hate follows the OP but its from people who are stuck in the "standard". Meaning if you try to think outside of the box you insta lose.
Keep being positive, pefecting this type of builds in certain situations, it wont work in all cases, but your attempting to think outside of the box
grats to you!
I'm with this guy, be creative. I dislike the whole "this isn't viable and you should stop it" mentality. Hell, Liquipedia's approved 7-Roach-Rush is from a diamond league guy who played around with an unusual idea. The 13 pool was standard at the time for the build and was less effective, and work and creativity made a better build.
Ok, well I definitely have to look into this more, but I was just messing around with a variation of this and it feels pretty amazing.
So my usual Zerg opening is 14 gas 14 pool 21 FE (which, I'll have you know, is just as economic as hatch first). Usually, I take all 3 drones off gas once I get 100 for ling speed. However, this time I just left them on and I was able to get a lair immediately after 21 hatch, ovie speed soon after. This was a ZvP on 3400 Diamond, and my scouting information felt AWESOME. Usually I feel as if I'm playing blind in ZvP. (Is he 4gating, fast blink stalkers, void rays / phoenixes, etc.). But with this build, I know EXACTLY what to do. I even was able to catch the probe transfer to his mid game third expo.
I'm not saying this is perfect, but this idea of a fairly quick lair with ovie speed is great for scouting. It relieves a lot of the fear in the early and mid game.
Also, just wanted to say that skipping ling speed is not a good idea. Also, it is unnecessary to get a lair THAT fast.
hey again guys: much love for everyone's responses, especially the ones who were supportive of new ideas. As i've already admitted, this strategy has vulnerabilities, like any other strategy. My goal is to tinker with it and if parts have to go, then so be it. There might be something here of value?
Maybe not delaying the queen is a good idea? Maybe investing the first 100 gas to lair is another good idea?
Who knows, maybe getting lair asap and then trying to play standard might work as well.
I'm gonna keep at it and see what works and what doesn't. Anyone who does the same, please post back here.
There is no point in having the early overlord speed. There are other ways of scouting along with good game sense that can work out better and you leave yourself extremely vulnerable to early pressure.
Okay so rather than immediately shooting this idea down like the rest of all unique Zerg opening ideas because it's not standard: I tried it.
So my only variation to the concept was I believed that if my first 100 gas would be used for a lair, I'd at least have enough time to get a queen out (which I know was a lot of your concerns) AND expand shortly after.
I opened 15 gas 14 pool, a safe "speedling expand" like opener that IdrA likes, and kept drones on gas. I played horribly and did horrible macro against an INSANELY bad player; however, timings vary VERY LITTLE on my side regardless of how good he was. More importantly: I'm posting the most optimal times, looking at the replay now, I could have gotten all these things.
Notable timings:
@3:15, my queen is just starting. @3:25, I had 100 gas. This would be the time I'd generally grab metabolic boost. @4:08, my lair is just starting to be made. @4:15, I had my next 100 gas. Meaning I could get ling speed in less than a minute later. @22 supply, I had more than enough to safely put down my expansion.
*Pause for a second*: If I had gotten ling speed at 4:15, it would have ended at 6:25, which is BEFORE a 4-gate hits. I will repeat: Though risky, a 4gate will hit 5 seconds(maybe a tad longer) AFTER ling speed finishes. Waiting 2-3 seconds in base with crawlers WILL PROVE success. Any 2 rax openings WILL NOT allow speed to be finished in time, so there's no "2 rax" argument.
@5:27, I had a lair COMPLETED. That's right: Tier 2 at 5:27. @5:44, My Overseer COULD HAVE BEEN FINISHED: This is PERFECT for spotting 4 gates, banshee rushing, what have you, and it'll live because of it's speed, meaning you'll scout again whenever.
I must put a disclaimer: Because of this being my FIRST time trying this, my timings were delayed by seconds; however, I am showing optimal timings when this could indeed happen.
My Conclusion:
I'm incredibly impressed with this strategy. I think it's an incredibly reasonable trade off to get an expansion at 22 supply so long as you have a queen out, to spend resources in that fashion and simply saturate your main to gain an incredibly fast tier 2 which allows for amazingly better scouting potential. As I stated before: ling speed WILL NOT finish in time for a 2 rax, so you need a better plan to handle them. I recommend a spine crawler, and slow lings on creep. I also proved that an expertly done 4-gate is generally timed at about 6:30, which is actually after the time speed finishes so: You will have speed lings in time for a 4 gate I think having an overseer on the field as early as it was is freaking sweet, as you have a more viable, controllable, scouting device that has contaminate potential. I also now think that had you wanted to, from scouting stargate play, a very fast hydralisk den could come out then field.
All-In-All: It's not the most economic way, much like anything that isn't hatch first, but it's a pretty damn safe way with only a marginal decrease in economy, which, to be honest: for many of us is worth not being cheesed by banshees, cloaked banshees, void rays, 4 gates that are well hidden, you name it. I think this is definitely something every zerg player should have in mind as an option if they really just don't want to deal with that kind of "cheesy" play.
Again: I did this, I have the numbers, I'm posting the replay, please be the awesome community that you are TL by reading what I have to say, watching the replay, realizing where I got my "optimal timings" (Generally it was just taking the time I could have had something and adding the build time of the unit), and see if you like my findings.
I hope I helped out OP, because I know you helped me out.
On March 16 2011 06:19 br0fivE wrote: I like your style OP
We see you trying stuff that isnt "standard", and being creative trying new options! Alot of hate follows the OP but its from people who are stuck in the "standard". Meaning if you try to think outside of the box you insta lose.
Keep being positive, pefecting this type of builds in certain situations, it wont work in all cases, but your attempting to think outside of the box
grats to you!
There is a difference between not playing "standard" and playing terrible. This guy's idea is not thought out well at all.
Think about it. Skipping a queen AND ling speed? In the words of Artosis, i'll swallow a sword if this build survives even bronze league.
seems kinda silly, whenever I get lair early I'm like "aghh need another queen but I can't get one(for creep spread n stuff)". I do love ovie speed though, puking on all the expos u dont have is great great incredible map control.
On March 16 2011 07:13 FinestHour wrote: There is no point in having the early overlord speed. There are other ways of scouting along with good game sense that can work out better and you leave yourself extremely vulnerable to early pressure.
Now, you have to ask yourself: do you really know what you're talking about?
There are so many times at the top tier levels of progaming (eh-hem GSL), a Zerg is completely surprised. These are the best Zergs in the world; they scout and have game sense like none other, but both Terran and Protoss can both turtle so well that scouting options are extremely limited early game.
Allow me to give you two examples off the top of my head. In the most recent finals of Code A in the GSL, Losira was completely thrown off by a two-port banshee attack that demolished his natural and nearly cost him the game. Another example (I can't remember the Protoss played for the life of me) was when Nestea in the GSL was completely surprised with a 4-gate on scrap station, at which point he had something like 1 zergling made.
I can legitimately tell you that good scouting and game sense can work some of the time, but not all of it. Overlord speed is ALWAYS useful, and in the early game when you can't get up the ramp of the terran or toss to see if they are 4gating, or going blue flame hellions, or two-port banshee, or DT rush, or proxy Stargate, or double stargate, etc., the Overlord speed is priceless.
Probably getting an expansion before doing this would be wiser, as I do not think scouting is worth sacrificing this much. Taking control of the watch towers is pretty much what gives Zerg knowledge of the unit composition, and later saccing an overlord @ about 4:30 can give you decent tech information.
On March 16 2011 05:33 ultoma wrote: I've been toying around with getting lair on the first 100 gas and overlord speed on the 100 gas. I delay my zergling speed after these first 2 upgrades. Has anyone played around with something like this?
I've been catching cheese much easier, since i have overlords going over my opponents base every 30 seconds or so. I've had ppl cancel buildings to throw me off, but with the overlord speed, you can go back for another look and catch ppl playing mind games.
What do you guys think about something like this? I have refined it at all, but getting lair really quickly has many great benefits. You can get roach speed so much faster and you're not susceptible to a lot of cheeses.
Any thoughts and criticism are appreciated.
You will die to literally everything.
I don't know why there are two pages of responses....
So you're skipping the ling speed which gives you ramp vision and total map control, in order to get vision 3.5 minutes later???
Can you please explain the logic here?
What could you possibly reveal that a slow overlord sac couldn't?
On March 16 2011 09:30 Jeffbelittle wrote: Okay so rather than immediately shooting this idea down like the rest of all unique Zerg opening ideas because it's not standard: I tried it.
My Conclusion:
I'm incredibly impressed with this strategy.
......................................
Please elucidate the rest of us on why investing 200 minerals and gas directly into DELAYED scouting is of any potential worth?
You will be scouted and killed for rushing lair by any competent opponent. If you rush lair, you must also rush something else that involves a steeper investment, and that gives the other player a gaping timing window to exploit.
Not to mentio you expand on top of this, further increasing the breadth of that window.
One advantage I see to this strategy is that you can sit an overlord at your opponents expansion and spew creep before they expand. They will most likely chase off your overlord but the creep takes a while to dissipate, delaying their expansion. Could work great against sentry fast expands and 2 rax expands.
Also, I use to mess around with a build on delta quadrant and lost temple where I would drop like 4 or 5 drones on the natural cliffs and build a couple spines and a spore on the spewed creep to harass the expansion and force air units or long ranged units.
There are so many ways to utilize early overlord speed. This would also allow for a very quick creep highway if you wanted to do a 2 base hydra push.
On March 16 2011 10:01 orotoss wrote: One advantage I see to this strategy is that you can sit an overlord at your opponents expansion and spew creep before they expand. They will most likely chase off your overlord but the creep takes a while to dissipate, delaying their expansion. Could work great against sentry fast expands and 2 rax expands.
Also, I use to mess around with a build on delta quadrant and lost temple where I would drop like 4 or 5 drones on the natural cliffs and build a couple spines and a spore on the spewed creep to harass the expansion and force air units or long ranged units.
There are so many ways to utilize early overlord speed. This would also allow for a very quick creep highway if you wanted to do a 2 base hydra push.
Yes, and this will encourage/reinforce the 1-base aggression they are already planning on doing because you rushed tech AND went for an expansion.
I consider myself a pretty out-of-the-box zerg thinker, at least moreso than many other players.
On March 16 2011 05:33 ultoma wrote: I've been toying around with getting lair on the first 100 gas and overlord speed on the 100 gas. I delay my zergling speed after these first 2 upgrades. Has anyone played around with something like this?
I've been catching cheese much easier, since i have overlords going over my opponents base every 30 seconds or so. I've had ppl cancel buildings to throw me off, but with the overlord speed, you can go back for another look and catch ppl playing mind games.
What do you guys think about something like this? I have refined it at all, but getting lair really quickly has many great benefits. You can get roach speed so much faster and you're not susceptible to a lot of cheeses.
Any thoughts and criticism are appreciated.
You will die to literally everything.
I don't know why there are two pages of responses....
So you're skipping the ling speed which gives you ramp vision and total map control, in order to get vision 3.5 minutes later???
Can you please explain the logic here?
What could you possibly reveal that a slow overlord sac couldn't?
On March 16 2011 09:30 Jeffbelittle wrote: Okay so rather than immediately shooting this idea down like the rest of all unique Zerg opening ideas because it's not standard: I tried it.
My Conclusion:
I'm incredibly impressed with this strategy.
......................................
Please elucidate the rest of us on why investing 200 minerals and gas directly into DELAYED scouting is of any potential worth?
You will be scouted and killed for rushing lair by any competent opponent. If you rush lair, you must also rush something else that involves a steeper investment, and that gives the other player a gaping timing window to exploit.
Not to mentio you expand on top of this, further increasing the breadth of that window.
Well, I imagine it's because I don't care how "Economic" a 14 hatch is or a 14 pool 15 hatch is if I didn't get to see a stargate I lose. 1 slow overlord can be off'd by 1 stalker and 1 sentry before reaching the back of the base. Now unless you're suggesting sacrifice 2 overlords (200 minerals) as early as 5 minutes into the game is just a wonderful idea, you're in a world of hurt. I also didn't sacrifice my scout: I had a fast overseer: so it doesn't die. I can just changeling to see anything, maybe hover over anything else and run away.
However: I know there are some skeptics out there that in the early game, you're screwed. This is not the case.
Here is my SECOND attempt at doing this build. I am a 1900 diamond Zerg, and I am matched against a 3k MASTERS terran.
He opens with a 2 rax. Yes. A 2 rax. Supposedly one of the most aggressive openers a terran can do. I scout this with my 13 drone, and he scouted that I did a gas first opening. So he didn't fully commit. I didn't know that. So I made a whole bunch of lings, spread creep with my queen, and had a crawler ready. Safe to say: if he did commit, I would have DEFINITELY held it off.
So my build was open enough that the one of the most aggressive terran openings wouldn't have worked against a so called "incredibly fragile" and in some peoples words "stupid" strategy.
I then had an overseer which allowed me to scout hellions, FLEE (imagine that? I can actually keep my scout!), come back to see the starport, and it seems to me I basically have a free scan because I can just keep going from dead space to his base so I can see what he's doing. He all-ins me with blue flame hellions, marauders, marines, and medivacs. After doing some hellion dropping at my main. I lack unit control so he attacks me, but I kill his army with roaches, banelings, and slings. I make my deathball of roaches, and 5 banelings. He just used his entire army trying to all-in me. I go in for the win.
So: To say this build is stupid when a 1900 diamond player beats a well-executed all-in that had potential for being VERY aggressive early game 3k Master league terran is pretty ludicrous. This isn't bronze league. It's masters.
So NOW: Watch the damn replay, reread my optimal timing posts, and realize this strategy is really actually quite good. In fact: I may make it a staple.
On March 16 2011 10:15 Jeffbelittle wrote: Well, I imagine it's because I don't care how "Economic" a 14 hatch is or a 14 pool 15 hatch is if I didn't get to see a stargate I lose. 1 slow overlord can be off'd by 1 stalker and 1 sentry before reaching the back of the base. Now unless you're suggesting sacrifice 2 overlords (200 minerals) as early as 5 minutes into the game is just a wonderful idea, you're in a world of hurt. I also didn't sacrifice my scout: I had a fast overseer: so it doesn't die. I can just changeling to see anything, maybe hover over anything else and run away.
However: I know there are some skeptics out there that in the early game, you're screwed. This is not the case.
Here is my SECOND attempt at doing this build. I am a 1900 diamond Zerg, and I am matched against a 3k MASTERS terran.
He opens with a 2 rax. Yes. A 2 rax. Supposedly one of the most aggressive openers a terran can do. I scout this with my 13 drone, and he scouted that I did a gas first opening. So he didn't fully commit. I didn't know that. So I made a whole bunch of lings, spread creep with my queen, and had a crawler ready. Safe to say: if he did commit, I would have DEFINITELY held it off.
So my build was open enough that the one of the most aggressive terran openings wouldn't have worked against a so called "incredibly fragile" and in some peoples words "stupid" strategy.
I then had an overseer which allowed me to scout hellions, FLEE (imagine that? I can actually keep my scout!), come back to see the starport, and it seems to me I basically have a free scan because I can just keep going from dead space to his base so I can see what he's doing. He all-ins me with blue flame hellions, marauders, marines, and medivacs. After doing some hellion dropping at my main. I lack unit control so he attacks me, but I kill his army with roaches, banelings, and slings. I make my deathball of roaches, and 5 banelings. He just used his entire army trying to all-in me. I go in for the win.
So: To say this build is stupid when a 1900 diamond player beats a well-executed all-in that had potential for being VERY aggressive early game 3k Master league terran is pretty ludicrous. This isn't bronze league. It's masters.
So NOW: Watch the damn replay, reread my optimal timing posts, and realize this strategy is really actually quite good. In fact: I may make it a staple.
I'm sorry for the incoming BM, but literally all the scouting information you gained, you would get with a ramp poke and a slow OL sac. The difference is you save 300 gas, you don't gimp your economy, and you get the information faster. You also don't give up map control due to lack of ling speed.
First off, you're advocating that sacrificing TWO overlords in a WORST CASE SCENARIO is far worse than investing 300 gas in rushing an overseer..... is that a joke? And in almost every case, one overlord will do.
So you sac an OL at 5 minutes, and you get taken out by ONE stalker and ONE sentry? If this is all he has, you can find everything you need because it will take forever to kill that. Don't move the OL on top of his ramp...... put it from the back of his base or the side. He can't stop your ling scout at his ramp AND the OL at the same time. Don't see him chrono'ing warp gate, he only has a couple units, and you can't find anything in his base with your OL before it dies? Proxy tech or hidden tech. Second, when you scout 2/3 of his base and don't see anything, what do you think is going on??? If you're 100% in the dark, build a queen or two. When you don't know what Protoss is doing, you build queens.
vs. Terran:
The irony in this game is that you super-over-commit to defense due to your utter lack of scouting information caused by the build designed to get better scouting information so you don't have to over-commit. Do you see the problem here?
This just shows how uninformed you are as a player. No terran is going to 2-rax a one-basing pool first player. They should turtle and rush a 2nd CC every time and just take the huge advantage you give them.
If he's going for hellion harass against a 1-base zerg, that shows how bad HE is, and has nothing to do with the fact that you waste 300 gas to reveal his poor decision-making.
It's great that you think you can cut all your drones, self-deny a free expansion, and then hold off early aggression. You self-inflict enough economic damage that the aggression doesn't even need to occur.
To say this build is smart when a bad player beats another bad player and uses it as incontrovertible evidence is silly. And at that, I'm not sure he even really made a bad decision there.
This thread needs to be closed.
(By the way, if your 3k masters friend has spent his bonus pool, then he's in line for demotion.)
On March 16 2011 06:19 br0fivE wrote: I like your style OP
We see you trying stuff that isnt "standard", and being creative trying new options! Alot of hate follows the OP but its from people who are stuck in the "standard". Meaning if you try to think outside of the box you insta lose.
Keep being positive, pefecting this type of builds in certain situations, it wont work in all cases, but your attempting to think outside of the box
grats to you!
It's wonderful to encourage out-of-the-box thinking, but not this type. This is "I just pulled my CD out of the box" thinking.
Spends 250 Minerals and 100 gas the moment the spawning pool finishes (Queen+Metabolic Boost)
The OP's build spends 150 Minerals and 100 Gas the moment the spawning pool finishes (lair)
This means he can get a faster expo
The drawback to this earlier expo is that it's protected by slow zerglings. This makes the early game more difficult, but the trade-off is that you'll have a stronger mid-game.
Early game aggression will be harder to stop due to the delayed speed upgrade. This is not game breaking for the same reason that 14FE can survive early game aggression.
The delayed queen will be painful because that will mean that you'll be larva starved in the early game. Hopefully the faster second hatch will alleviate some of those worries.
As an opening build order I like that it holds a lot of promise. As for upgrading Overlord Speed; as much as I like the idea I'm wondering what the advantage of the upgrade is over simply getting an overseer? If you build an overseer first you can also be building a queen at the same time. The early Overseer might even hurt an opponent's opening build if you can goop up their town hall.
I made a suggestion earlier about Spine Crawlers being used for defense with the help of Overlord Creep Spread. To be more specific, this is to help you position spine crawlers where there normally aren't any. 1-2 at the top of the ramp supported by zerglings will fend off a lot. 1-2 standing by a morphing hatchery will give you some kind of defense for your natural.
These are not spine crawlers that you depend upon for dear life; the reason I suggest it is because with the delayed Metabolic Boost you're going to need an ace up your sleeve to help against strong early aggression.
However, what I find the most exciting about this build order is as a reaction to Forge FE builds. Instead of busting with roaches/banelings or double expanding, I like the idea of an early lair allowing you to harass the main with Mutalisk/Nydus. I also like the idea that you could get fast Hydras against stargate tech. I like the chance for a fast Infestor against Bio builds. Or even little things like Baneling Busting with Centrifugal Hooks.
I also think that this would fit with the more JulyZerg style play of heavy aggression and strong 1-2 base attacks. If you don't have the goal to make 80-90 drones then having earlier tech and a delayed economy might open up doors not normally open to Zerg.
This isn't the best idea. Delaying ling speed makes it extremely difficult to hold off early pressure from both Stalkers and Hellions.
I honestly don't see what the problem is anyway - it's really not that hard to scout most all-ins provided you know what to look for.
If this were coupled with some kind of early drop play I think it might have some potential, but killing your early defense and economy just for easier scouting doesn't seem the best move to me. Man up and sacrifice an Overlord.
On March 16 2011 10:53 lorkac wrote: Speedling FE:
Spends 250 Minerals and 100 gas the moment the spawning pool finishes (Queen+Metabolic Boost)
The OP's build spends 150 Minerals and 100 Gas the moment the spawning pool finishes (lair)
This means he can get a faster expo
The drawback to this earlier expo is that it's protected by slow zerglings. This makes the early game more difficult, but the trade-off is that you'll have a stronger mid-game.
Early game aggression will be harder to stop due to the delayed speed upgrade. This is not game breaking for the same reason that 14FE can survive early game aggression.
The delayed queen will be painful because that will mean that you'll be larva starved in the early game. Hopefully the faster second hatch will alleviate some of those worries.
As an opening build order I like that it holds a lot of promise. As for upgrading Overlord Speed; as much as I like the idea I'm wondering what the advantage of the upgrade is over simply getting an overseer? If you build an overseer first you can also be building a queen at the same time. The early Overseer might even hurt an opponent's opening build if you can goop up their town hall.
I made a suggestion earlier about Spine Crawlers being used for defense with the help of Overlord Creep Spread. To be more specific, this is to help you position spine crawlers where there normally aren't any. 1-2 at the top of the ramp supported by zerglings will fend off a lot. 1-2 standing by a morphing hatchery will give you some kind of defense for your natural.
These are not spine crawlers that you depend upon for dear life; the reason I suggest it is because with the delayed Metabolic Boost you're going to need an ace up your sleeve to help against strong early aggression.
However, what I find the most exciting about this build order is as a reaction to Forge FE builds. Instead of busting with roaches/banelings or double expanding, I like the idea of an early lair allowing you to harass the main with Mutalisk/Nydus. I also like the idea that you could get fast Hydras against stargate tech. I like the chance for a fast Infestor against Bio builds. Or even little things like Baneling Busting with Centrifugal Hooks.
I also think that this would fit with the more JulyZerg style play of heavy aggression and strong 1-2 base attacks. If you don't have the goal to make 80-90 drones then having earlier tech and a delayed economy might open up doors not normally open to Zerg.
Overall I love the idea.
Now this I potentially like. If you can do it in response to something, and only THEN rush an overseer (not OL speed), then you could be giving yourself a tangible advantage due to contamination on whatever vital tech he is rushing (assuming you know this from your own scouting).
I still don't see the point in skipping zergling speed though. There simply isn't anything your opponent can be doing that you can't both scout and counter by ramp poking and early OL sac. If he's able to deny, then with the lair you should already be getting with your next 100 gas, you can get an overseer at a semi-normal time, albeit slightly earlier time.
But by then we've come so far from the OP, it's just a "get an overseer as soon as lair pops" which is what most players who like scouting information do anyway.
The issue here is as you said: You're gimping drone production by omitting the queen, and defending an expansion with slow zerglings that further gimp your drone production.
On March 16 2011 10:01 orotoss wrote: One advantage I see to this strategy is that you can sit an overlord at your opponents expansion and spew creep before they expand. They will most likely chase off your overlord but the creep takes a while to dissipate, delaying their expansion. Could work great against sentry fast expands and 2 rax expands.
Also, I use to mess around with a build on delta quadrant and lost temple where I would drop like 4 or 5 drones on the natural cliffs and build a couple spines and a spore on the spewed creep to harass the expansion and force air units or long ranged units.
There are so many ways to utilize early overlord speed. This would also allow for a very quick creep highway if you wanted to do a 2 base hydra push.
Yes, and this will encourage/reinforce the 1-base aggression they are already planning on doing because you rushed tech AND went for an expansion.
I consider myself a pretty out-of-the-box zerg thinker, at least moreso than many other players.
Rushing Overlord Speed is a very stupid idea.
Dude, this build speeds up tech by delaying a queen. Everything else is about the same as any other 1 base build. You don't have speedlings, true, but neither does a 14Hatch FE. Unless you're willing to say that 14hatch is stupid, you don't really have ground to stand on.
The general gist is this.
(Queen and Zergling Speed) is juxtaposed with (Lair and Overseer)
That's the change. That's it. Everything else works the same.
250 Minerals 100 Gas vs 200 Minerals 200 Gas
I don't really understand why you're upset about this.
Michael: You're right. That was rather bad mannered. Especially since you didn't even watch the replay.
Well first off, that wasn't a friend of mine. That was a random person on the custom games in Xel'Nega Caverns search. And since he had over 500 games played in 1v1, I'd say his MMR is rather static, so I wouldn't really discredit him as a player.
Secondly: I recognized that no terran will follow through with marines after he scouts I didn't hatch first. That's exactly why he didn't. And even though I made the blunder of over linging and putting down a crawler, I still caught up, and widely surpassed my terran opponent economically.
Thirdly: He didn't hellion harass a 1-base zerg. This is another proof you didn't watch the replay. I threw down an expo at 22, he saw that. He saw I only had lings for a defense at the time, and last I checked, blue flame hellions pretty much decimate lings with good micro and not letting them get surrounded (Especially if you have medivacs to pick them up when they do get surrounded).
Fourth: I didn't say the is incontrovertible evidence that this build is the omega of Zerg builds. I basically said, I tested this build which I have now tweaked against the worst case scenario the opposition has put at me "A 2 rax or a 4 gate" which all of the first page cried would "end me", which it clearly didn't, and my speedling time proves a 4 gate wouldn't, but rather this is totally a feasible idea that with tweaking can be a "back-pocket" build.
Fifth: Being in the dark as Zerg is basically GG. So "just making queens" maybe isn't the best idea. Say what you want but there are simply too many things a person can do if you don't know his full base to assume anti-air will be the right answer.
Sixth: No, not everything I found out could have been obtained from a slow overlord. I would have seen a factory finishing, and not know what attachment would be going on it, nor would I have seen the starport put down a tad later. This is because "sacing an ovie" does what it sounds: sacrifices the overlord. To get another one in decent position in time takes waay to long.
Seventh: I think you're just being immature when you call the idea of quick lairing with a purpose "I just pulled my CD out the box" thinking. It's not like he's doing 1 base muta, he's doing an incredibly adaptable scouting build. This isn't some sort of cheese that relies on poor scouting, it's a playstyle. A very safe one at that.
So I'm going to let my numbers and my replays at a very high level of play speak for themselves, and leave the rest up to discussion by people better than me. But until I see some concrete evidence otherwise, hell yeah I'm going to experiment and tweak this build more.
On March 16 2011 10:53 lorkac wrote: Speedling FE:
Spends 250 Minerals and 100 gas the moment the spawning pool finishes (Queen+Metabolic Boost)
The OP's build spends 150 Minerals and 100 Gas the moment the spawning pool finishes (lair)
This means he can get a faster expo
The drawback to this earlier expo is that it's protected by slow zerglings. This makes the early game more difficult, but the trade-off is that you'll have a stronger mid-game.
Early game aggression will be harder to stop due to the delayed speed upgrade. This is not game breaking for the same reason that 14FE can survive early game aggression.
The delayed queen will be painful because that will mean that you'll be larva starved in the early game. Hopefully the faster second hatch will alleviate some of those worries.
As an opening build order I like that it holds a lot of promise. As for upgrading Overlord Speed; as much as I like the idea I'm wondering what the advantage of the upgrade is over simply getting an overseer? If you build an overseer first you can also be building a queen at the same time. The early Overseer might even hurt an opponent's opening build if you can goop up their town hall.
I made a suggestion earlier about Spine Crawlers being used for defense with the help of Overlord Creep Spread. To be more specific, this is to help you position spine crawlers where there normally aren't any. 1-2 at the top of the ramp supported by zerglings will fend off a lot. 1-2 standing by a morphing hatchery will give you some kind of defense for your natural.
These are not spine crawlers that you depend upon for dear life; the reason I suggest it is because with the delayed Metabolic Boost you're going to need an ace up your sleeve to help against strong early aggression.
However, what I find the most exciting about this build order is as a reaction to Forge FE builds. Instead of busting with roaches/banelings or double expanding, I like the idea of an early lair allowing you to harass the main with Mutalisk/Nydus. I also like the idea that you could get fast Hydras against stargate tech. I like the chance for a fast Infestor against Bio builds. Or even little things like Baneling Busting with Centrifugal Hooks.
I also think that this would fit with the more JulyZerg style play of heavy aggression and strong 1-2 base attacks. If you don't have the goal to make 80-90 drones then having earlier tech and a delayed economy might open up doors not normally open to Zerg.
Overall I love the idea.
Now this I potentially like. If you can do it in response to something, and only THEN rush an overseer (not OL speed), then you could be giving yourself a tangible advantage due to contamination on whatever vital tech he is rushing (assuming you know this from your own scouting).
I still don't see the point in skipping zergling speed though. There simply isn't anything your opponent can be doing that you can't both scout and counter by ramp poking and early OL sac. If he's able to deny, then with the lair you should already be getting with your next 100 gas, you can get an overseer at a semi-normal time, albeit slightly earlier time.
But by then we've come so far from the OP, it's just a "get an overseer as soon as lair pops" which is what most players who like scouting information do anyway.
The issue here is as you said: You're gimping drone production by omitting the queen, and defending an expansion with slow zerglings that further gimp your drone production.
I normally skip Ling Speed when I plan to go heavy roaches and transition into lair tech, forgoing the upgrade until the midgame while my Spire is busy being built. This is because I prefer using a 14Hatch15Pool opening that delays gas.
However, I have been having troubles playing against FFE builds that transition into Phoenixes. Queens are good, but not that good. This has been such a problem that getting an evo chamber is par for the course as a response to FFE.
What I really want is for Zerg to have a big power unit at lair tech the same way that the Lurker was. If the infestor can take over that role, then I can see this build becoming very successful.
On March 16 2011 11:10 Jeffbelittle wrote: Sixth: I think you're just being immature when you call the idea of quick lairing with a purpose "I just pulled my CD out the box" thinking. It's not like he's doing 1 base muta, he's doing an incredibly adaptable scouting build. This isn't some sort of cheese that relies on poor scouting, it's a playstyle. A very safe one at that.
Protoss who get an early Robo normally get themselves an observer for scouting.
San during his game against Nestea in the round of 32 of the GSL March produced a lot of Observers from him his robotics instead of Collosus and he went on to beat the best zerg in the world.
On March 16 2011 10:01 orotoss wrote: One advantage I see to this strategy is that you can sit an overlord at your opponents expansion and spew creep before they expand. They will most likely chase off your overlord but the creep takes a while to dissipate, delaying their expansion. Could work great against sentry fast expands and 2 rax expands.
Also, I use to mess around with a build on delta quadrant and lost temple where I would drop like 4 or 5 drones on the natural cliffs and build a couple spines and a spore on the spewed creep to harass the expansion and force air units or long ranged units.
There are so many ways to utilize early overlord speed. This would also allow for a very quick creep highway if you wanted to do a 2 base hydra push.
Yes, and this will encourage/reinforce the 1-base aggression they are already planning on doing because you rushed tech AND went for an expansion.
I consider myself a pretty out-of-the-box zerg thinker, at least moreso than many other players.
Rushing Overlord Speed is a very stupid idea.
Dude, this build speeds up tech by delaying a queen. Everything else is about the same as any other 1 base build. You don't have speedlings, true, but neither does a 14Hatch FE. Unless you're willing to say that 14hatch is stupid, you don't really have ground to stand on.
The general gist is this.
(Queen and Zergling Speed) is juxtaposed with (Lair and Overseer)
That's the change. That's it. Everything else works the same.
250 Minerals 100 Gas vs 200 Minerals 200 Gas
I don't really understand why you're upset about this.
------- (deleted)
EDIT: My bad, I misread the name
Alright well i'm done ranting about how bad this thread is after this post.
You guys keep comparing this to something else, and then saying "well that something else isn't that bad."
14hatch FE doesn't have ling speed, but it trades earlier ling speed for a very strong economy.
This isn't JUST skipping a queen, it's skipping a queen, losing 10 larva, 100-200 minerals of mining time at a critical point in the game, sacrificing map control AND delaying an expansion.... all for the sake of scouting information in the HOPE of revealing key information.
What happens when your opponent is playing extremely standard and has nothing of value to reveal? You just mortgaged your house in the hope that you can counter him but he just attacks you and kills you.
Lastly, getting a lair AFTER speed, and then just getting an overseer immediately would be faster than what OP suggests. And speed --> lair --> overseer is extremely standard.
The difference is that speed --> lair ---> overseer doesn't give up map control, it doesn't gimp larva, and it doesn't delay the expansion needlessly.
Information is clearly the premium in this game, but it's not like he's on an island... you can get most of the information you need for free. Why gimp yourself so hard to try and get more information that adequate scouting would already reveal?
(And on a minor note, the logical reasoning advocate in me would like to point out that saying "that's it" doesn't make something minor. Delaying a queen and expo that long AND ling speed for map control is very significant.)
On March 16 2011 11:10 Jeffbelittle wrote: So I'm going to let my numbers and my replays at a very high level of play speak for themselves, and leave the rest up to discussion by people better than me. But until I see some concrete evidence otherwise, hell yeah I'm going to experiment and tweak this build more.
I'm not saying that it's a great build. As I have said, it has lots of *potential* and I really like where it's going as a build (early tech in favor of econ)
And yes, the differences *are* minor.
Yes you loose map control. Yes you lose larva injects.
I really like the early lair. Most likely you're right that the early Overseer is pointless. Most likely you're right that the loss of map control will have an adverse affect on the Zerg metagame (specifically on how Zerg handles early aggression and prevent Protoss/Terran fast expand builds).
Yes, this build is not a fast expand build. Yes, this build is not an aggressive build that applies the threat of SpeedLings to maintain map control.
So far you have been accurate at describing that this build order is not the same as the standard builds. So far you've been able to point out the flaws of the build, the limitations of the build.
Now that you have all that stuff off your chest, maybe we can start trying to make something happen?
The core of the build is getting an early lair. This means 3 very important things.
-You can't remove drones from gas because Lair tech needs gas. Not just morphing the lair, but the benefits the lair gives needs gas. This means that you will have less mineral overall than a normal 14Gas14Pool build. This is not so bad since you will have less larva early on than all other standard 1base build orders.
-No early zergling speed. It's very possible to stop early aggression such as 4gates and 2rax builds without Zergling Speed. This is not done by simply "building more zerglings." The ZvX early game would have to be completely reworked in order for this build to be viable--but I feel that this isn't too impossible a mountain to climb.
-The expansion is not delayed, but it will be unprotected. 14Hatch works because it's built early to provide creep that is necessary to defend against early pressure. Speedling builds work because map control gained by early lings allows you to safely expand at 22 supply. This build's expansion provides neither the early creep of 14Hatch nor the early speed of a Speedling FE. This means that the build needs to be specific and not macro-centric. This means that the build will have to be one based centric as well as dependent on a tech "trick" to allow you to gain an advantage over your opponent. This is akin to DT rushes and Banshee rushes depending on fast tech to allow the Protoss/Terran player to get an early advantage over the opponent.
These three problems are the ones I feel are the biggest hurdles to the build. But I don't believe them to be insurmountable.
I tried out fast lair + overseer with this build order:
9 overlord 11 pool 11 extractor 12 extractor 14 lair oveseer at lair completion
I can contaminate a cyber core researching warpgate at 5:24. It could be even earlier if someone with better base mechanics does it. The earliest warpgate research completion I've seen in my replays is 5:26. Is that the definite earliest? If so, this build could potentially delay a 4 gate push long enough to get ling speed and an adequate army.
Let's try and keep the conversation critical please. No nonsense.
Anyways, i'm liking what i'm reading. As i previously wrote, this is NOT refined at all, but i suspected some good could come from it. With what i've read so far, i think some good has come of it, at least at the level i play at.
not skipping the queen and getting an overseer is a great idea. Getting ling speed right after lair is a great idea as well. I'll try out both.
Please keep in mind that this is something we can all work on. I've read some really encouraging things from you guys and i'd like to see it keep going.
For those interested: try out different variations and see how you can make a fast lair work in zerg match ups.
On March 16 2011 12:11 lorkac wrote: This is akin to DT rushes and Banshee rushes depending on fast tech to allow the Protoss/Terran player to get an early advantage over the opponent.
The reason banshee and DT openings are stable is because they give you map control that allows you to safely expand behind the pressure. The zerg equivalent of this is the uberstandard speedling expand. There is no lair tech that would be so much better in this regard to justify a greatly delayed expansion.
On March 16 2011 14:34 JaqMs wrote: I tried out fast lair + overseer with this build order:
9 overlord 11 pool 11 extractor 12 extractor 14 lair oveseer at lair completion
I can contaminate a cyber core researching warpgate at 5:24. It could be even earlier if someone with better base mechanics does it. The earliest warpgate research completion I've seen in my replays is 5:26. Is that the definite earliest? If so, this build could potentially delay a 4 gate push long enough to get ling speed and an adequate army.
How much gas do you have by the time your lair finishes?
Could you have gotten ling speed before the lair finished and still be able to get an overseer?
After you start your lair, do you think it would be beneficial to pull drones off gas at some point? 100gas if you're just planning to morph in an overseer? 200gas if you're getting lingspeed+overseer?
If you didn't get an Overseer do you think you could start getting infestors? (Gas wise)
I think this leaves you very vulnerable to early pressure. You're going to be late with a queen if you get lair asap. Waiting for 2 queens off a late natural expansion means your creep spread will be terrible, and your early game larva production is bad as well. Speedlings, Stalkers, Marines or Helions will be able to dance around your slowlings, potentially causing a lot of damage. You won't be able to block a ramp with queens until late.
That said, OL speed is great for scouting. Have you tried queen->Lair->OL speed with an earlier drone scout and some lings at the front? Knowing the basics like "Has he taken gas?" "Has he expanded?" can usually put you through to the midgame where you can start using those fast OLs to really nail down your opponent's plan.
On March 16 2011 14:34 JaqMs wrote: I tried out fast lair + overseer with this build order:
9 overlord 11 pool 11 extractor 12 extractor 14 lair oveseer at lair completion
I can contaminate a cyber core researching warpgate at 5:24. It could be even earlier if someone with better base mechanics does it. The earliest warpgate research completion I've seen in my replays is 5:26. Is that the definite earliest? If so, this build could potentially delay a 4 gate push long enough to get ling speed and an adequate army.
A perfect korean 4 gate (I know its not done vs zerg very often, but hypothetically) warpgate will finish at 5:05. Gate on 10 into 4 gate (cutting at 20 probes) with has it at 5:15. Gate on 13 into 4 gate (cutting at 20 probes) I belive has it at 5:30.
Bearing in mind these are all when the research finishes, not when the gates are turned into warpgates (+10 seconds). But the research is finished by this point and so the overseer might well be in time to stop warpgate as long as they went 13 gate.
On March 16 2011 14:34 JaqMs wrote: I tried out fast lair + overseer with this build order:
9 overlord 11 pool 11 extractor 12 extractor 14 lair oveseer at lair completion
I can contaminate a cyber core researching warpgate at 5:24. It could be even earlier if someone with better base mechanics does it. The earliest warpgate research completion I've seen in my replays is 5:26. Is that the definite earliest? If so, this build could potentially delay a 4 gate push long enough to get ling speed and an adequate army.
Opponent scouts no units, 12 drones, and lair off double gas, check.
Opponent kills you with 1 zealot.
On March 16 2011 14:50 ultoma wrote: hey again guys, thanks so much for the feedback.
Let's try and keep the conversation critical please. No nonsense.
Anyways, i'm liking what i'm reading. As i previously wrote, this is NOT refined at all, but i suspected some good could come from it. With what i've read so far, i think some good has come of it, at least at the level i play at.
not skipping the queen and getting an overseer is a great idea. Getting ling speed right after lair is a great idea as well. I'll try out both.
Please keep in mind that this is something we can all work on. I've read some really encouraging things from you guys and i'd like to see it keep going.
For those interested: try out different variations and see how you can make a fast lair work in zerg match ups.
Thanks guys!
I think if you can reword your OP or even rewrite it to reflect your opinions in this post, it would warrant some good discussion.
On March 16 2011 05:52 CookieMaker wrote: OP better please. Ways to do this include: 1. Posting replays 2. Posting replays 3. Posting replays 4. Elaborate on your build order
Hey OP, you know after our conversation I've been tweaking this build a lot and check this out:
In my 15 gas opening, I got my first 100 gas @3:25, and my next 100 gas at @4:15.
As I said before, it's pivotal you do indeed get your queen whether it be for creep spread for a well-placed spine crawler to stop any bunkering or the actual injects to not fall behind at all economically. The queen build time is 50 seconds, and if a queen is building you can't lair.
THEREFORE: You can actually grab speed with your first 100 gas, get a queen, and your next 100 gas be a lair, and it wouldn't change my overseer times WHATSOEVER; however, you'd have speed nearly a minute faster, which means you'd have it at around 5:35, which is in time for any early game non-sense (4 gates, what have you) AND you'd still have an overseer at @5:44, a perfect time to scout an enemy protoss or terran base.
The problem I see with getting early lair is you have to either delay the queen or delay the lair. Then the lair itself isn't a big setback (only 50 more minerals than speed) but when you add another 100/100 for ovie speed on top of the fact that you have no economy to really further use the lair it's a pretty big setback.
Then combine that with the fact that most games you aren't going to see anything you wouldn't have been able to know about with the standard drone/ling poke/slow overlord poke and this seems it will just very very rarely be worth it. Even worse you fast overlord will spot things but you won't have the economy or upgrades to stop some of them. I can't imagine stopping a 4gate with this among other things.
It would be good against more tech-ish "cheese" like cloaked banshees or quick void ray but once again if you are able to scout those with more standard methods you are then in a better position to hold them off.
On March 18 2011 00:00 Jeffbelittle wrote: Hey OP, you know after our conversation I've been tweaking this build a lot and check this out:
In my 15 gas opening, I got my first 100 gas @3:25, and my next 100 gas at @4:15.
As I said before, it's pivotal you do indeed get your queen whether it be for creep spread for a well-placed spine crawler to stop any bunkering or the actual injects to not fall behind at all economically. The queen build time is 50 seconds, and if a queen is building you can't lair.
THEREFORE: You can actually grab speed with your first 100 gas, get a queen, and your next 100 gas be a lair, and it wouldn't change my overseer times WHATSOEVER; however, you'd have speed nearly a minute faster, which means you'd have it at around 5:35, which is in time for any early game non-sense (4 gates, what have you) AND you'd still have an overseer at @5:44, a perfect time to scout an enemy protoss or terran base.
could you post a rep?
Something like this warrants discussion, Overseer rush...
Me[persian] : This is madness [ The idea of not getting speedling research as soon as possible ] You[spartan] : Madness?? This is Sparta !!!!! [ who need speedling ] The end. Persian won against 300 Spartan. [2gates, 3gates, 4gates, good 2-3rax micro, hellions, anything would kill you]
I'm glad you took the time to recite your favorite movie and didn't have the time to read ANY of the thread whatsoever. Also: given your post count, I have to imagine you'll get warned for this.
If you want a legit answer to that:
Nobody opens 2 gate to a protective field, 3 gates are fast expand builds, so what do you mean we are ended? 2 rax's get shut down by a crawler, 3 rax will probably need a baneling nest, hellions can be dealt with roaches or good sling micro, and you can see any of that coming with the uber fast scouting you're getting.
On March 18 2011 01:48 Wordpad wrote: It's amazing how huge the community is that even a "sac eco&being agressive to rush for OL Speed" strategy can gain this much attention ^^
It's not about "sac eco" and "OL Speed Rushing"
The reason this is getting attention is that it's an attempt to suggest a non-standard build that has enough things going for it to make it not chased out of town.
For example, if the OP attempted to post a strat like 3 hatch drone rushing, no one would take him seriously because that's just not really realistic. However, by suggesting a lair first build that allows him early tech which can survive the early game, he actually has something that people can work with and tweak.
What's annoying is that it's currently on the razor's edge of awesome and silly; which I personally like, but there are a lot of folks in this thread who are upset/trolling because it's not "solid" enough for them.
I think it would be very helpful for the OP to post their build order so that we can critique that better. I'm a visual person, and seeing the progression would be helpful for discussion.
I'm intrigued by this build. It seems to have the potential to catch people off-guard with the quick Lair tech. I'll post some replays after I have time to play around with it.
On March 18 2011 01:48 Wordpad wrote: It's amazing how huge the community is that even a "sac eco&being agressive to rush for OL Speed" strategy can gain this much attention ^^
for that matter the 11overpool thing is still being mentioned every other post. this may become the new "standard" :D
On March 18 2011 00:00 Jeffbelittle wrote: Hey OP, you know after our conversation I've been tweaking this build a lot and check this out:
In my 15 gas opening, I got my first 100 gas @3:25, and my next 100 gas at @4:15.
As I said before, it's pivotal you do indeed get your queen whether it be for creep spread for a well-placed spine crawler to stop any bunkering or the actual injects to not fall behind at all economically. The queen build time is 50 seconds, and if a queen is building you can't lair.
THEREFORE: You can actually grab speed with your first 100 gas, get a queen, and your next 100 gas be a lair, and it wouldn't change my overseer times WHATSOEVER; however, you'd have speed nearly a minute faster, which means you'd have it at around 5:35, which is in time for any early game non-sense (4 gates, what have you) AND you'd still have an overseer at @5:44, a perfect time to scout an enemy protoss or terran base.
So, I have been trying early lair builds, but I haven't really found anything very robust. I tried out this 15g/14p speed lair overseer rush against the computer. Here's the replay:
The timings are pretty tight, but I don't think the overseer really gives you anything worth getting. If you cut drones at 20 and scout an early 4 gate, you barely have the money and larva to pump (unupgraded) lings. If you scout 1 gate stargate, you only have 1 queen and the phoenixes will hit your base in ~15 seconds. Is there any way to survive this.
Watch the replay if you're interested in the timings, but it doesn't feel like it's "worth it."
On March 16 2011 05:49 Darclite wrote: You just need to make sure you aren't getting hit by anything early because your early game will be very weak but your midgame will be great.
I'd recommend that you toy around with this more, but a few suggestions. - Getting drop really fast. Really fast. Maybe try some infestor + 4 zerglings to just wreck a mineral line. (I know people will think to just get banelings, but you might as well get tech. - Roach/infestor play with tunneling claws.It's like getting cloak at seven minutes lol. - Getting some spine crawlers. - Using the surprise of the tech units to double-expand perhaps
Sorry if these aren't the best suggestions, it's an unusual build. Still, work on it, SC2 needs more diversity.
i agree with him. slow drops is something i had been thinking to try. i will like to suggest too that u try getting 3/4 hatches earlier on to get the extra larva. u can even try hiding ur lair somewhere outside ur main anyways i really hope to hear u going deeper into this opening and getting something good out of it. good luck =D
I have been trying to toy around with that Idea too but the problem is just that you dont have any map controll for a while against two barracks play and or Stalkers what really helps is just putting creep tumors down with your queens before even injecting the first time. On creep lings arent that much slower than speedlings off creep. But that is really all I can say to this atm.
I actually saw a Psy replay where he did something very similar.
The build was he went very early +1 lings and overlord drop.
I think going for early Overlord Speed gives you the advantage of being able to switch into drops and fantastic scouting ability, rather than the generic baneling break or frontdoor engagement.
EPT
