EPTExtremely early lair + overlord speed Zerg opening - Page 2
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scorch-
United States816 Posts
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
You'll actually learn how to read opponents better, for times when you can't full scout, since you'll find, conclusively, what they're really doing each time. | ||
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br0fivE
Canada349 Posts
We see you trying stuff that isnt "standard", and being creative trying new options! Alot of hate follows the OP but its from people who are stuck in the "standard". Meaning if you try to think outside of the box you insta lose. Keep being positive, pefecting this type of builds in certain situations, it wont work in all cases, but your attempting to think outside of the box grats to you! | ||
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Tracedragon
United States948 Posts
On March 16 2011 05:33 ultoma wrote: I've been toying around with getting lair on the first 100 gas and overlord speed on the 100 gas. I delay my zergling speed after these first 2 upgrades. [...] I've been catching cheese much easier, since i have overlords going over my opponents base every 30 seconds or so. Sure, this allows you to scout with relative ease, but aren't you leaving yourself extremely vulnerable to cheese by delaying your Metabolic Boost? It appears that you can see the cheese coming, but you can't do anything to stop it. On March 16 2011 05:51 ultoma wrote: I skip my queen for a quick lair and get overlord speed before my first queen. Skipping your queen is even worse. You'll be far behind in larvae, and thus behind in BOTH economy and army. Not to mention that the lack of a queen allows for a Void Ray or Reaper rush to kill you easily, even if you can see it coming. On March 16 2011 05:51 ultoma wrote: I know that any early pressure will be hard to stop. To be frank, i got tired of being cheesed and thought this up randomly. [...] i'm trying to figure out a way to stop cheese. You can catch 4 gate with relative ease [...] So, i suppose you make urself somewhat vulnerable in order to catch a cheese or 4 gate much, much earlier. [...] Also, any early pressure that comes my way, i rely on static defense and a lot of slow lings. Because i won't have speed, i'm hoping the sheer number of slow lings will stop the pressure. Sure, you can scout a 4gate, but by skipping a queen, how will you have enough units to defend against it? Again, at this point you can see the cheese coming, but you can't do anything to stop it. I don't think making yourself more vulnerable to cheese is the way to counter cheese. On March 16 2011 06:00 lorkac wrote: Would forgoing overlord speed and instead depending on spine crawlers built on overlord creep be a good way to expand? Spend 100 gas on an Overseer to allow for faster queen production. Depend on Infestor/Spines to survive into the midgame? This is all theorycraft of course, when I have time I'll test it on 1v1obs. No. Spine crawlers take forever to build, and they'll die off quickly if the pooping overlord gets sniped. And what will you do if the enemy goes around your spines? | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10338 Posts
So, yeah. You can use many spines for defense, though it depends on the map. Perhaps a 1 base play would work well? Overlords are hard to kill and P's aa is really expensive (gas heavy) | ||
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Jeffbelittle
United States468 Posts
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Darclite
United States1021 Posts
On March 16 2011 06:19 br0fivE wrote: I like your style OP We see you trying stuff that isnt "standard", and being creative trying new options! Alot of hate follows the OP but its from people who are stuck in the "standard". Meaning if you try to think outside of the box you insta lose. Keep being positive, pefecting this type of builds in certain situations, it wont work in all cases, but your attempting to think outside of the box grats to you! I'm with this guy, be creative. I dislike the whole "this isn't viable and you should stop it" mentality. Hell, Liquipedia's approved 7-Roach-Rush is from a diamond league guy who played around with an unusual idea. The 13 pool was standard at the time for the build and was less effective, and work and creativity made a better build. | ||
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Encrypto
United States442 Posts
So my usual Zerg opening is 14 gas 14 pool 21 FE (which, I'll have you know, is just as economic as hatch first). Usually, I take all 3 drones off gas once I get 100 for ling speed. However, this time I just left them on and I was able to get a lair immediately after 21 hatch, ovie speed soon after. This was a ZvP on 3400 Diamond, and my scouting information felt AWESOME. Usually I feel as if I'm playing blind in ZvP. (Is he 4gating, fast blink stalkers, void rays / phoenixes, etc.). But with this build, I know EXACTLY what to do. I even was able to catch the probe transfer to his mid game third expo. I'm not saying this is perfect, but this idea of a fairly quick lair with ovie speed is great for scouting. It relieves a lot of the fear in the early and mid game. Also, just wanted to say that skipping ling speed is not a good idea. Also, it is unnecessary to get a lair THAT fast. | ||
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ultoma
30 Posts
Maybe not delaying the queen is a good idea? Maybe investing the first 100 gas to lair is another good idea? Who knows, maybe getting lair asap and then trying to play standard might work as well. I'm gonna keep at it and see what works and what doesn't. Anyone who does the same, please post back here. Thanks guys. | ||
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
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Jeffbelittle
United States468 Posts
So my only variation to the concept was I believed that if my first 100 gas would be used for a lair, I'd at least have enough time to get a queen out (which I know was a lot of your concerns) AND expand shortly after. I opened 15 gas 14 pool, a safe "speedling expand" like opener that IdrA likes, and kept drones on gas. I played horribly and did horrible macro against an INSANELY bad player; however, timings vary VERY LITTLE on my side regardless of how good he was. More importantly: I'm posting the most optimal times, looking at the replay now, I could have gotten all these things. Notable timings: @3:15, my queen is just starting. @3:25, I had 100 gas. This would be the time I'd generally grab metabolic boost. @4:08, my lair is just starting to be made. @4:15, I had my next 100 gas. Meaning I could get ling speed in less than a minute later. @22 supply, I had more than enough to safely put down my expansion. *Pause for a second*: If I had gotten ling speed at 4:15, it would have ended at 6:25, which is BEFORE a 4-gate hits. I will repeat: Though risky, a 4gate will hit 5 seconds(maybe a tad longer) AFTER ling speed finishes. Waiting 2-3 seconds in base with crawlers WILL PROVE success. Any 2 rax openings WILL NOT allow speed to be finished in time, so there's no "2 rax" argument. @5:27, I had a lair COMPLETED. That's right: Tier 2 at 5:27. @5:44, My Overseer COULD HAVE BEEN FINISHED: This is PERFECT for spotting 4 gates, banshee rushing, what have you, and it'll live because of it's speed, meaning you'll scout again whenever. I must put a disclaimer: Because of this being my FIRST time trying this, my timings were delayed by seconds; however, I am showing optimal timings when this could indeed happen. My Conclusion: I'm incredibly impressed with this strategy. I think it's an incredibly reasonable trade off to get an expansion at 22 supply so long as you have a queen out, to spend resources in that fashion and simply saturate your main to gain an incredibly fast tier 2 which allows for amazingly better scouting potential. As I stated before: ling speed WILL NOT finish in time for a 2 rax, so you need a better plan to handle them. I recommend a spine crawler, and slow lings on creep. I also proved that an expertly done 4-gate is generally timed at about 6:30, which is actually after the time speed finishes so: You will have speed lings in time for a 4 gate I think having an overseer on the field as early as it was is freaking sweet, as you have a more viable, controllable, scouting device that has contaminate potential. I also now think that had you wanted to, from scouting stargate play, a very fast hydralisk den could come out then field. All-In-All: It's not the most economic way, much like anything that isn't hatch first, but it's a pretty damn safe way with only a marginal decrease in economy, which, to be honest: for many of us is worth not being cheesed by banshees, cloaked banshees, void rays, 4 gates that are well hidden, you name it. I think this is definitely something every zerg player should have in mind as an option if they really just don't want to deal with that kind of "cheesy" play. Again: I did this, I have the numbers, I'm posting the replay, please be the awesome community that you are TL by reading what I have to say, watching the replay, realizing where I got my "optimal timings" (Generally it was just taking the time I could have had something and adding the build time of the unit), and see if you like my findings. I hope I helped out OP, because I know you helped me out. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/150413-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns | ||
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Karthane
United States1183 Posts
On March 16 2011 06:19 br0fivE wrote: I like your style OP We see you trying stuff that isnt "standard", and being creative trying new options! Alot of hate follows the OP but its from people who are stuck in the "standard". Meaning if you try to think outside of the box you insta lose. Keep being positive, pefecting this type of builds in certain situations, it wont work in all cases, but your attempting to think outside of the box grats to you! There is a difference between not playing "standard" and playing terrible. This guy's idea is not thought out well at all. Think about it. Skipping a queen AND ling speed? In the words of Artosis, i'll swallow a sword if this build survives even bronze league. | ||
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uberdeluxe
Canada306 Posts
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Encrypto
United States442 Posts
On March 16 2011 07:13 FinestHour wrote: There is no point in having the early overlord speed. There are other ways of scouting along with good game sense that can work out better and you leave yourself extremely vulnerable to early pressure. Now, you have to ask yourself: do you really know what you're talking about? There are so many times at the top tier levels of progaming (eh-hem GSL), a Zerg is completely surprised. These are the best Zergs in the world; they scout and have game sense like none other, but both Terran and Protoss can both turtle so well that scouting options are extremely limited early game. Allow me to give you two examples off the top of my head. In the most recent finals of Code A in the GSL, Losira was completely thrown off by a two-port banshee attack that demolished his natural and nearly cost him the game. Another example (I can't remember the Protoss played for the life of me) was when Nestea in the GSL was completely surprised with a 4-gate on scrap station, at which point he had something like 1 zergling made. I can legitimately tell you that good scouting and game sense can work some of the time, but not all of it. Overlord speed is ALWAYS useful, and in the early game when you can't get up the ramp of the terran or toss to see if they are 4gating, or going blue flame hellions, or two-port banshee, or DT rush, or proxy Stargate, or double stargate, etc., the Overlord speed is priceless. | ||
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SimpleNEasy
United States22 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On March 16 2011 05:33 ultoma wrote: I've been toying around with getting lair on the first 100 gas and overlord speed on the 100 gas. I delay my zergling speed after these first 2 upgrades. Has anyone played around with something like this? I've been catching cheese much easier, since i have overlords going over my opponents base every 30 seconds or so. I've had ppl cancel buildings to throw me off, but with the overlord speed, you can go back for another look and catch ppl playing mind games. What do you guys think about something like this? I have refined it at all, but getting lair really quickly has many great benefits. You can get roach speed so much faster and you're not susceptible to a lot of cheeses. Any thoughts and criticism are appreciated. You will die to literally everything. I don't know why there are two pages of responses.... So you're skipping the ling speed which gives you ramp vision and total map control, in order to get vision 3.5 minutes later??? Can you please explain the logic here? What could you possibly reveal that a slow overlord sac couldn't? On March 16 2011 09:30 Jeffbelittle wrote: Okay so rather than immediately shooting this idea down like the rest of all unique Zerg opening ideas because it's not standard: I tried it. My Conclusion: I'm incredibly impressed with this strategy. ...................................... Please elucidate the rest of us on why investing 200 minerals and gas directly into DELAYED scouting is of any potential worth? You will be scouted and killed for rushing lair by any competent opponent. If you rush lair, you must also rush something else that involves a steeper investment, and that gives the other player a gaping timing window to exploit. Not to mentio you expand on top of this, further increasing the breadth of that window. | ||
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orotoss
United States298 Posts
Also, I use to mess around with a build on delta quadrant and lost temple where I would drop like 4 or 5 drones on the natural cliffs and build a couple spines and a spore on the spewed creep to harass the expansion and force air units or long ranged units. There are so many ways to utilize early overlord speed. This would also allow for a very quick creep highway if you wanted to do a 2 base hydra push. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On March 16 2011 10:01 orotoss wrote: One advantage I see to this strategy is that you can sit an overlord at your opponents expansion and spew creep before they expand. They will most likely chase off your overlord but the creep takes a while to dissipate, delaying their expansion. Could work great against sentry fast expands and 2 rax expands. Also, I use to mess around with a build on delta quadrant and lost temple where I would drop like 4 or 5 drones on the natural cliffs and build a couple spines and a spore on the spewed creep to harass the expansion and force air units or long ranged units. There are so many ways to utilize early overlord speed. This would also allow for a very quick creep highway if you wanted to do a 2 base hydra push. Yes, and this will encourage/reinforce the 1-base aggression they are already planning on doing because you rushed tech AND went for an expansion. I consider myself a pretty out-of-the-box zerg thinker, at least moreso than many other players. Rushing Overlord Speed is a very stupid idea. | ||
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Jeffbelittle
United States468 Posts
On March 16 2011 10:00 michaelhasanalias wrote: You will die to literally everything. I don't know why there are two pages of responses.... So you're skipping the ling speed which gives you ramp vision and total map control, in order to get vision 3.5 minutes later??? Can you please explain the logic here? What could you possibly reveal that a slow overlord sac couldn't? ...................................... Please elucidate the rest of us on why investing 200 minerals and gas directly into DELAYED scouting is of any potential worth? You will be scouted and killed for rushing lair by any competent opponent. If you rush lair, you must also rush something else that involves a steeper investment, and that gives the other player a gaping timing window to exploit. Not to mentio you expand on top of this, further increasing the breadth of that window. Well, I imagine it's because I don't care how "Economic" a 14 hatch is or a 14 pool 15 hatch is if I didn't get to see a stargate I lose. 1 slow overlord can be off'd by 1 stalker and 1 sentry before reaching the back of the base. Now unless you're suggesting sacrifice 2 overlords (200 minerals) as early as 5 minutes into the game is just a wonderful idea, you're in a world of hurt. I also didn't sacrifice my scout: I had a fast overseer: so it doesn't die. I can just changeling to see anything, maybe hover over anything else and run away. However: I know there are some skeptics out there that in the early game, you're screwed. This is not the case. Here is my SECOND attempt at doing this build. I am a 1900 diamond Zerg, and I am matched against a 3k MASTERS terran. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/150455-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns He opens with a 2 rax. Yes. A 2 rax. Supposedly one of the most aggressive openers a terran can do. I scout this with my 13 drone, and he scouted that I did a gas first opening. So he didn't fully commit. I didn't know that. So I made a whole bunch of lings, spread creep with my queen, and had a crawler ready. Safe to say: if he did commit, I would have DEFINITELY held it off. So my build was open enough that the one of the most aggressive terran openings wouldn't have worked against a so called "incredibly fragile" and in some peoples words "stupid" strategy. I then had an overseer which allowed me to scout hellions, FLEE (imagine that? I can actually keep my scout!), come back to see the starport, and it seems to me I basically have a free scan because I can just keep going from dead space to his base so I can see what he's doing. He all-ins me with blue flame hellions, marauders, marines, and medivacs. After doing some hellion dropping at my main. I lack unit control so he attacks me, but I kill his army with roaches, banelings, and slings. I make my deathball of roaches, and 5 banelings. He just used his entire army trying to all-in me. I go in for the win. So: To say this build is stupid when a 1900 diamond player beats a well-executed all-in that had potential for being VERY aggressive early game 3k Master league terran is pretty ludicrous. This isn't bronze league. It's masters. So NOW: Watch the damn replay, reread my optimal timing posts, and realize this strategy is really actually quite good. In fact: I may make it a staple. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On March 16 2011 10:15 Jeffbelittle wrote: Well, I imagine it's because I don't care how "Economic" a 14 hatch is or a 14 pool 15 hatch is if I didn't get to see a stargate I lose. 1 slow overlord can be off'd by 1 stalker and 1 sentry before reaching the back of the base. Now unless you're suggesting sacrifice 2 overlords (200 minerals) as early as 5 minutes into the game is just a wonderful idea, you're in a world of hurt. I also didn't sacrifice my scout: I had a fast overseer: so it doesn't die. I can just changeling to see anything, maybe hover over anything else and run away. However: I know there are some skeptics out there that in the early game, you're screwed. This is not the case. Here is my SECOND attempt at doing this build. I am a 1900 diamond Zerg, and I am matched against a 3k MASTERS terran. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/150455-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns He opens with a 2 rax. Yes. A 2 rax. Supposedly one of the most aggressive openers a terran can do. I scout this with my 13 drone, and he scouted that I did a gas first opening. So he didn't fully commit. I didn't know that. So I made a whole bunch of lings, spread creep with my queen, and had a crawler ready. Safe to say: if he did commit, I would have DEFINITELY held it off. So my build was open enough that the one of the most aggressive terran openings wouldn't have worked against a so called "incredibly fragile" and in some peoples words "stupid" strategy. I then had an overseer which allowed me to scout hellions, FLEE (imagine that? I can actually keep my scout!), come back to see the starport, and it seems to me I basically have a free scan because I can just keep going from dead space to his base so I can see what he's doing. He all-ins me with blue flame hellions, marauders, marines, and medivacs. After doing some hellion dropping at my main. I lack unit control so he attacks me, but I kill his army with roaches, banelings, and slings. I make my deathball of roaches, and 5 banelings. He just used his entire army trying to all-in me. I go in for the win. So: To say this build is stupid when a 1900 diamond player beats a well-executed all-in that had potential for being VERY aggressive early game 3k Master league terran is pretty ludicrous. This isn't bronze league. It's masters. So NOW: Watch the damn replay, reread my optimal timing posts, and realize this strategy is really actually quite good. In fact: I may make it a staple. I'm sorry for the incoming BM, but literally all the scouting information you gained, you would get with a ramp poke and a slow OL sac. The difference is you save 300 gas, you don't gimp your economy, and you get the information faster. You also don't give up map control due to lack of ling speed. First off, you're advocating that sacrificing TWO overlords in a WORST CASE SCENARIO is far worse than investing 300 gas in rushing an overseer..... is that a joke? And in almost every case, one overlord will do. So you sac an OL at 5 minutes, and you get taken out by ONE stalker and ONE sentry? If this is all he has, you can find everything you need because it will take forever to kill that. Don't move the OL on top of his ramp...... put it from the back of his base or the side. He can't stop your ling scout at his ramp AND the OL at the same time. Don't see him chrono'ing warp gate, he only has a couple units, and you can't find anything in his base with your OL before it dies? Proxy tech or hidden tech. Second, when you scout 2/3 of his base and don't see anything, what do you think is going on??? If you're 100% in the dark, build a queen or two. When you don't know what Protoss is doing, you build queens. vs. Terran: The irony in this game is that you super-over-commit to defense due to your utter lack of scouting information caused by the build designed to get better scouting information so you don't have to over-commit. Do you see the problem here? This just shows how uninformed you are as a player. No terran is going to 2-rax a one-basing pool first player. They should turtle and rush a 2nd CC every time and just take the huge advantage you give them. If he's going for hellion harass against a 1-base zerg, that shows how bad HE is, and has nothing to do with the fact that you waste 300 gas to reveal his poor decision-making. It's great that you think you can cut all your drones, self-deny a free expansion, and then hold off early aggression. You self-inflict enough economic damage that the aggression doesn't even need to occur. To say this build is smart when a bad player beats another bad player and uses it as incontrovertible evidence is silly. And at that, I'm not sure he even really made a bad decision there. This thread needs to be closed. (By the way, if your 3k masters friend has spent his bonus pool, then he's in line for demotion.) On March 16 2011 06:19 br0fivE wrote: I like your style OP We see you trying stuff that isnt "standard", and being creative trying new options! Alot of hate follows the OP but its from people who are stuck in the "standard". Meaning if you try to think outside of the box you insta lose. Keep being positive, pefecting this type of builds in certain situations, it wont work in all cases, but your attempting to think outside of the box grats to you! It's wonderful to encourage out-of-the-box thinking, but not this type. This is "I just pulled my CD out of the box" thinking. | ||
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