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On March 06 2011 06:10 jazzbassmatt wrote:
This thread is really helpful!
How would you respond against a Toss that FEs (or 3gate expands), then immediately into 2stargate phoenix? On longer maps, I think this is difficult for me to deal with because hydras are so slow that counter attacking is difficult. Even if you are able to defend and get your third, it seems like in most cases the toss will be able to expand safely himself while teching to collosus. A 2 base hydra timing push before he gets collosus can be powerful, but good toss players seem to be able to hold this off.
I have been having trouble with that kind of build myself. Obviously baneling bombs aren't the answer because they get sniped by the phoenix while you're on your way there. And as you said hydra's are too slow on long maps. I 'think' corruptors could help, but then again, that would mean an easy third for him too and he can just go insane on the warpgate count.
So yeah, I don't have the definite answer for that yet.
On March 06 2011 06:10 jazzbassmatt wrote:
If you scout two stargates instead of one, do you still go spire, just with corruptors? Are you still able to do enough damage? How do you transition out of this (i.e. do you keep building corruptors, stop building mutas, tech to hydra, attack, etc.)
In the newest ForgeFE replay, the opponent does get 2 stargates and I go spire with muta/corruptor. He was forced to make phoenix while I was forced to make corruptors and mutalisks, it was a really strange situation which I eventually overcame by doing a great push against his third and fourth.
If you go spire versus protoss, your goal is to gain air and map control. If the protoss manages to get these from you completely, you might aswel be 200/200 on drones because he will just run you over with macro and any unit combination.
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On February 27 2011 03:25 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 00:59 dave333 wrote:
+1 lings is very strong in ZvZ as well, if you see a roach centric build. Time it right, you'll get your +1 attack fairly early and can backstab and kill roach armies. I have actually tried +1 melee zerglings in combination with 0/0 roaches to defend a onebase roach push today. I absolutely DESTROYED his push, it was actually insane how cost effective it was. I have to experiment with this more though, but I really think that +1 melee lings have a small niche in ZvZ. Although I think that niche is only versus one base roach pushes. Since you know, you don't want your entire force blown up by a single baneling. And once roaches get into too high of a number with upgrades, lings just aren't worth it. So they will only function well in that small timing window. Still, its a window worth exploring some more.
all he need is to bring 4 banelings and you are so screwed up it's not even funny. You need to go roaches after a certain point. +1 lings is very tempting and it sets up for the muta transition well but a good timed roach/bling will ruin your day. You cannot engage at all, if you send ur lings at once, they get owned. If you send your lings a few at a time, they get owned as well.
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But on topic, I think you are right in saying zerg is strong midgame. In fact, i'm starting to feel zerg is strong when you are one base ahead and he has not taken. I'll focus my zerg game on finding the timing where I'm ahead, amass army and go for the kill when he tries to catch up economically. So far it's just been taking a fast expansion and kill any protoss who tries to expand with 50 zerglings, but if he's doing a safe expand, I can easily transition my zerglings into banes and do a huge drop+ling attack which will also kill him. Definitely worth experimenting with baneling drops, even burrowed banes sound super powerful, it basically FORCE a robo...
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On March 06 2011 19:47 evanthebouncy! wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 03:25 Chaosvuistje wrote:On February 27 2011 00:59 dave333 wrote:
+1 lings is very strong in ZvZ as well, if you see a roach centric build. Time it right, you'll get your +1 attack fairly early and can backstab and kill roach armies. I have actually tried +1 melee zerglings in combination with 0/0 roaches to defend a onebase roach push today. I absolutely DESTROYED his push, it was actually insane how cost effective it was. I have to experiment with this more though, but I really think that +1 melee lings have a small niche in ZvZ. Although I think that niche is only versus one base roach pushes. Since you know, you don't want your entire force blown up by a single baneling. And once roaches get into too high of a number with upgrades, lings just aren't worth it. So they will only function well in that small timing window. Still, its a window worth exploring some more. all he need is to bring 4 banelings and you are so screwed up it's not even funny. You need to go roaches after a certain point. +1 lings is very tempting and it sets up for the muta transition well but a good timed roach/bling will ruin your day. You cannot engage at all, if you send ur lings at once, they get owned. If you send your lings a few at a time, they get owned as well.
I do get what you are saying. Banelings will ruin your day so hard its not even funny, but its not unwinnable in that case. You can use your roaches to snipe off banelings while moving back in and out with your zerglings. Although the roach/bane player does have the advantage.
As I have said earlier, this is basically a ZvZ cheese. So if it is scouted its probably game if the opponent knows how to deal with it, but ifnot, he will get crushed. Its not supposed to be a solid opening and I recognise that.
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this sounds really awesome. I'm certain that zerg should use baneling bombs in all matchups. Their damage output is awesome, and they are especially great vs clumped up balls, where all other zerg units struggle with.
Also, you can simply baneling drop his mineral line at 3 bases simultaniously, and most of the time you'll do terrible damage. it's especially strong if you shift click these drops, while the OLs are still far away, so if you time a push with your army at the same time, he'll either not micro his army at all, or lose most of his economy. Win/win situation in any case!
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Sounds like a very sweet gameplan. Baneling bombs are definately something I have wanted to incorporate in my builds more, and is something I will definately try. A few questions.
How does this work out vs a protoss opening with a bunch of phoenixes? You basically lose so much supply that your zergling number will be very limited if he decides for a zealot heavy followup push.
You opt for +1 melee then +1 ranged and then further upgrading attack upgrades. Considering how +carapace benefit both roaches and lings (and ultras who, imo, need the armor to buy time to really deal out the hurt), would it be worth it to get a fast 2nd evo chamber and then research + carapace alongside with the +1 ranged? Its 6 roaches less in the short run, but in the long run it will make every unit just that more powerful, and as long as you do get the + attack at the same time it will work out for a stronger army overall? Reason I ask is because i really like going double evo pretty fast especially against 3 gateway expand builds where teching abit harder is fairly safe.
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On March 06 2011 21:11 Thraundil wrote:
Sounds like a very sweet gameplan. Baneling bombs are definately something I have wanted to incorporate in my builds more, and is something I will definately try. A few questions.
How does this work out vs a protoss opening with a bunch of phoenixes? You basically lose so much supply that your zergling number will be very limited if he decides for a zealot heavy followup push.
You opt for +1 melee then +1 ranged and then further upgrading attack upgrades. Considering how +carapace benefit both roaches and lings (and ultras who, imo, need the armor to buy time to really deal out the hurt), would it be worth it to get a fast 2nd evo chamber and then research + carapace alongside with the +1 ranged? Its 6 roaches less in the short run, but in the long run it will make every unit just that more powerful, and as long as you do get the + attack at the same time it will work out for a stronger army overall? Reason I ask is because i really like going double evo pretty fast especially against 3 gateway expand builds where teching abit harder is fairly safe.
To the first question I say a mass zergling count will make sure you keep ground control. He cannot get lots of phoenixes and a big gateway army at the same time. You should be scouting his army all the time anyway and if you see mass zealot while you are researching +2 melee, the choice of simply getting a banelign nest and overrunning him seems pretty obvious. If you see very quick phoenixes you can always just plop down a couple of spores around your mineral lines and park your overlords there to prevent him from sniping drones/ovies.
To the second question, I would say experiment  . Myself I haven't been working with carapace upgrades as much as I would want to because I've had enough success with my current setup to keep experimenting to a minimum. I would definitely time that second evo between the research of +1 range though. Prefferably after lair. But personally I've always found attack upgrades to be better than carapace upgrades, because attack upgrades make more of a difference.
However if you plan on going for a lategame techswitch to ultra's, early carapace ugprades are a must. So if those are in your gameplan, definitely experiment with those and tell us your experiences with it . I can only play so much and having other people expand on this basic idea would make this build progress so much faster.
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Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 06:10 jazzbassmatt wrote:
If you scout two stargates instead of one, do you still go spire, just with corruptors? Are you still able to do enough damage? How do you transition out of this (i.e. do you keep building corruptors, stop building mutas, tech to hydra, attack, etc.) In the newest ForgeFE replay, the opponent does get 2 stargates and I go spire with muta/corruptor. He was forced to make phoenix while I was forced to make corruptors and mutalisks, it was a really strange situation which I eventually overcame by doing a great push against his third and fourth. If you go spire versus protoss, your goal is to gain air and map control. If the protoss manages to get these from you completely, you might aswel be 200/200 on drones because he will just run you over with macro and any unit combination.
Not to shoot you down but that replay was probably the biggest example of what not to do against double stargate/mass phoenix play. You didn't make the critical mass of corruptors to just shut down the phoenixes and you kept making mutas instead. It was a painful replay to watch.
The protoss was far more cost efficient making those phoenixes. I lost count of how many mutas that were made just to throw away at a phoenix ball. It was actually an entire air combat game. I believe for the most part you had about 20 lings and the protoss had 2 collosus out.
However this is definitely a good example of how to punish a protoss that goes forge FE and just relies on 2 cannons for protection.
To sum up the beginning of the game, our zerg friend not only killed the cannons but got into the main base and picked off the cybercore that was halfway through researching warpgate. All this in addition to killing lots of probes and pylons, the forge and 1st gateway.
This was what won you the game, not your decision making against the air protoss. In fact that could've lost you the game.
For future reference if you take out the cybercore before warpgate is done you can tech to roaches and just win. Don't waste with dragging the game on for 40 minutes.
So in summary:
- Good replay to show your +1 build opening and how quickly it can go from a few annoying zerglings to crazy deathlings eating your base up.
- Terrible replay to demonstrate stargate countering.
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On March 06 2011 23:37 kesbie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 06:10 jazzbassmatt wrote:
If you scout two stargates instead of one, do you still go spire, just with corruptors? Are you still able to do enough damage? How do you transition out of this (i.e. do you keep building corruptors, stop building mutas, tech to hydra, attack, etc.) In the newest ForgeFE replay, the opponent does get 2 stargates and I go spire with muta/corruptor. He was forced to make phoenix while I was forced to make corruptors and mutalisks, it was a really strange situation which I eventually overcame by doing a great push against his third and fourth. If you go spire versus protoss, your goal is to gain air and map control. If the protoss manages to get these from you completely, you might aswel be 200/200 on drones because he will just run you over with macro and any unit combination. Not to shoot you down but that replay was probably the biggest example of what not to do against double stargate/mass phoenix play. You didn't make the critical mass of corruptors to just shut down the phoenixes and you kept making mutas instead. It was a painful replay to watch. The protoss was far more cost efficient making those phoenixes. I lost count of how many mutas that were made just to throw away at a phoenix ball. It was actually an entire air combat game. I believe for the most part you had about 20 lings and the protoss had 2 collosus out. However this is definitely a good example of how to punish a protoss that goes forge FE and just relies on 2 cannons for protection. To sum up the beginning of the game, our zerg friend not only killed the cannons but got into the main base and picked off the cybercore that was halfway through researching warpgate. All this in addition to killing lots of probes and pylons, the forge and 1st gateway. This was what won you the game, not your decision making against the air protoss. In fact that could've lost you the game. For future reference if you take out the cybercore before warpgate is done you can tech to roaches and just win. Don't waste with dragging the game on for 40 minutes. So in summary: - Good replay to show your +1 build opening and how quickly it can go from a few annoying zerglings to crazy deathlings eating your base up. - Terrible replay to demonstrate stargate countering.
Hmm, well input is always welcome regardless .
The decision of going spire was BECAUSE I delayed his cybercore by taking it out, I figured that he wouldn't have enough time to go stargate and I could just finish him off right then and there. This wasn't the case to my regrets.
And yes, the protoss was more cost effective in those fights, but to remain costeffective, he had to constantly make phoenix. My brain wasn't functioning enough to see this as a sign to get infestors up faster.
Will see how it goes next time ^^. Thanks for the review.
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On March 06 2011 19:05 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 06:10 jazzbassmatt wrote:
If you scout two stargates instead of one, do you still go spire, just with corruptors? Are you still able to do enough damage? How do you transition out of this (i.e. do you keep building corruptors, stop building mutas, tech to hydra, attack, etc.) In the newest ForgeFE replay, the opponent does get 2 stargates and I go spire with muta/corruptor. He was forced to make phoenix while I was forced to make corruptors and mutalisks, it was a really strange situation which I eventually overcame by doing a great push against his third and fourth. If you go spire versus protoss, your goal is to gain air and map control. If the protoss manages to get these from you completely, you might aswel be 200/200 on drones because he will just run you over with macro and any unit combination.
Yeah, I completely agree. I think the reason zerg has a strong midgame is really actually pretty simple: map control. True, the midgame is also when the protoss player is still teching and has a smaller army because he's investing in the late game, but through good FF usage (and just midgame mindset oriented play as opposed to teching too hard) the toss can usually overcome this.
One thing I've tried vs. 2base 2stargate phoenix builds is just droning up a ton, building a few spore crawlers and queens, then pressuring his expo a ton with burrow and roach upgrade. If you're being harassed by phoenix, you can always try to counter attack and pressure (I've often even gotten a lucky nexus snipe) with just upgraded roaches. Roaches are fast, can burrow under FF, and can tank phoenix lifting a lot better.
Unless the toss player builds a lot of cannons, I've usually had success being able to destroy the nexus (or kill a significant amount of probes) at the toss player's expo while I get maximum saturation on two bases and defend phoenix harass. This strategy, however, doesn't work nearly as well on maps with a narrow choke at the expo (think shakuras). On these maps, sometimes breaking down the back rocks and attacking from two angles is your best bet--unless he has amazing force fields, your army should be bigger than his, and this is an advantage you can use much more with roaches than with hydras (even though roach cannot attack air. Even if the toss player, for example, has a couple void rays, you can often still use burrow movement, snipe his nexus, and run home without losing too much. (It's very situational however).
On maps with a wider front at the expo, like Metalopolis or Xel Naga, mass roach (although counter-intuitive) works pretty well as a counter to two stargates. The only way the toss player can defend well enough is by building lots of cannons, a couple voidrays, using good FFs, and going less heavy on phoenix and more heavy on gateway units.
Even if you don't do significant damage, as long as you're smart about it, you:
-force the protoss player to use his phoenix to defend, thus keeping most of your map control
-delay the toss player's colossus tech
-force the toss player to focus more on gateway units and cannons, which are much less of a threat late game than a huge ball of phoenix
-should be able to easily take and secure a third base
This type of build depends on good unit control by you though. If you allow the toss player to defend his base WHILE teching to colossus and WHILE harassing your with phoenix and WHILE denying your third with a voidray, then the toss player will have a significant advantage. Still, however, mass roach isn't actually as bad of a unit composition against a phoenix/colossus/immortal ball as you might think. You're still in the game. Using phoenix to lift up roaches is much less cost efficient for the toss player than lifting up hydras or even using those same phoenix to attack corruptors. And upgraded roaches actually don't do THAT badly against colossus and immortals if there aren't many stalkers/zealots to tank damage. Sentries are also much more effective force fielding slow hydras than they are against roaches with burrow movement. And obviously hydras are terrible against colossus, and imo, aren't really that great against immortals either (a soft counter to them, if anything).
So, anyways, that's a build I've been toying around with. I still am only a high diamond/low masters level player, and I don't understand or play the game at a super high level, but this response has worked pretty well for me (especially against players that are too bad to build cannons or put obs. at their expo, making killing their expo easy). Some problems I see with this response are that: a) really good protoss players can potentially defend while applying significant pressure with phoenix, and b) this build is much less effective (or at least harder to pull off) on maps where the expo has a small choke. What do you think?
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well this is a nice build but ill stick with my build, im writing this post to show u a new idea that started in the ogs team, mid to late game bane drop but not just on his probe but mostly mass drop of banes on the deathball while u fight him, this may some wierd but i swear to god its so good, your econ can support u getting over drop speed and 30bane or so and when u drop then on the toss death ball well he dies quickly now most people would say how the hell do i get there but with your build its easy and i do it easly to just by after i have roaches with burrow and speed as im taking my 3 start over drop and speed and get bane nest when its nearly done, if u see him go for air with his death ball like voids or so get hydras before banes he will need to sit on 2 base for a while to get a good vrs collos death ball so u got time then when u drop banes in middle of the ball your hydras can easly kill voids if u want to see ill send some replays
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look u guys are over thinking if he goes 2 stargate phenix and u scout it its awsome for u !!! u get like 2 spores in each base immidatly expand cus phenix can do nothing and get hydras after when i scout 2 star phenix i smile
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Canada13389 Posts
I don't play Zerg but if theres one thing I love to see its a well written guide
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Yes this is one of the best written guides!
I think this is going to change my ZvP
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awesome guide Mr.Chaos. Yet to watch the replays but did d/l them all. baneling bombs are one of the most fun things to watch when executed well and are a blast (no pun intended) if your the one dropping them  . I am assuming that +2 allows banes do to 45 dmg, and was unaware how crucial that little tid bit is. Thanks for opening my eyes to that fact
do you feel like late game ultra/roach/bane drop/corruptor is zerg's deathball army? low ultra/corruptor #s with lots of roaches on the ground and ovies stuffed with banes.
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Gotta go try that, although I think you could do a 14 scout for just a bit more econ and the same advantages? At least I have found that it's early enough if you rally your 14th drone to scout even on those bigger maps.
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Thanks everyone for the nice replies about the format of this guide ^^. I put a lot of thought into it. So its great to have some positive replies on that and it definitely helps my morale to be higher since it has been quite low lately ( illnesses and all that ).
On March 09 2011 23:50 Juice303 wrote:
do you feel like late game ultra/roach/bane drop/corruptor is zerg's deathball army? low ultra/corruptor #s with lots of roaches on the ground and ovies stuffed with banes.
I feel that there is no 'deathball' army for zerg. And Zergs shouldn't look for one ( le gasp! ). I don't think zerg was designed in the way that a death army should be the end goal.
Rather, I think that in the lategame, rediculous tech switches while keeping your economy in-tact are the key. And especially after an engagement which traded armies, this is a great oppertunity. And you shouldn't think in just one phase either, but rather in the way 'toss usually screws you over ( I phoenix pew pew overlords, he hydra, I collosus, he die :D:D:D ). The trick is to find enough army compositions to tech switch into.
Currently in the lategame I do a couple of unit comps:
Roach/mass ( around 12 or 15 ) broodlord. You attack one end ( usually the main where all the tech is ) with the broodlords and across the map you attack with your roach force. He is FORCED to attack the broodlords with all his anti air units, because he will be dead in the water without gateways or cybernetics cores. And because this engagement is hugely costineffective for protoss, you will come out on top ( plus the roaches can take out an expansion, score! ).
Ultra/roach. Ultra's as they are suck as a stand alone unit. BUT they force a specific reaction from protoss which you then can exploit by going another tech route. For example he goes voidrays, you go muta ling. He goes for immortals, you go for broodlord or whatever.
Obviously tehre are a lot more options, but I haven't explored those. The only units I don't recommend are mass zerglings or hydra's. Both can be stopped by simply warping in a round of khaydarin templar, this might change in 1.3 though.
Just look at the protoss army and see where the weakness is or will be, and exploit that. Don't look for a deathball, pick protoss if you want that.
On March 10 2011 00:26 tablet wrote:
Gotta go try that, although I think you could do a 14 scout for just a bit more econ and the same advantages? At least I have found that it's early enough if you rally your 14th drone to scout even on those bigger maps.
I haven't experimented with drone timings too much. I just want to get in their base before they can lock me out with a zealot or whatever, so I can check their gascount/chronoboost. I don't really care for the 15 minerals I save if I do a 14 drone scout vs a 12 drone scout. So your word is as good as mine on this issue .
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Added a ton of new replays ^^ hope you guys like it.
I've been experimenting with infestors a bit, they're nice occasionally vs blink stalkers if you ahve lots of lings .
But lately I have encountered a LOT of mindgame play from protoss. A lot of tech hiding, fake expanding, mc style sentry pushes. I was wondering if you guys saw an increase of that kind of play too.
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So I noticed this was added to the "recommended threads" section of the forum. Good choice, I think.
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EPT
