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Ghost Reportin
83 Posts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/139616-1v1-protoss-shakuras-plateau http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/139615-1v1-terran-protoss-steppes-of-war http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/139614-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns and if i somehow disobeyed the rules at all I apologize for my retardedness. Guys. I need your help. I constantly read the liquidpedia and im still lost. please help. thank you for your time and kindess. team liquid fighting. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
How old are you? I know some people who are 10 or 11 and love giving the game a go but their mental abilities can't allow them to get too good at this game. Older individuals, into their late late 50s+ will have a hard time learning the hand eye coordination and speed required to play this game effectively. NOTE: Pre-teen development limits physical and mental coordination needed for starcraft at higher levels even just low diamond. Older individuals who almost never play video games or didn't play many video games before sc2 will have a hard time learning the skills they need to play well due to lack of familiarity with computers and their use. Ok now that that is out of the way if you don't fall into either category then helping you will be much easier. It comes down to practice but the good kind of practice where you don't repeat bad habits over and over. The problem you might be facing is 1000 games of repitition and bad habits. I suggest you play Terran if you main Protoss currently and focus on learning one basic build order like the 3 rax stim and concussive timing and making sure you can get to 50 supply or higher in 7 minutes. If you can make scvs, and follow the build order and get a good timing out of it then you are one step closer to breaking bad habits. Use hotkeys and watch the day 9 newbie tuesday vods. ALL of them they will help you a LOT at the very least conceptually. Focus on playing against a very easy AI in order to practice good habits and as soon as you repeat a bad habit like supply blocking yourself quit the game and start again. I really don't want to be the bearer of bad news but you need to basically re-learn sc2 because after 1000 games unless you seriously tried to stay in bronze to farm portraits you need to destroy bad habits and rebuild good ones. | ||
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fadestep
United States605 Posts
I would recommend leaving your build orders and decision making to somebody else. By that I mean, look up some good builds and follow them exactly. Watch Day9/streams/replays and copy the decision making exactly. A lot of people discourage this as it can sometimes retard your growth as a player, but in your case I think just getting the feel for basic situations and what to do in them will allow you to start to grasp some of the concepts for yourself. You also go back and forth about your micro. In some threads you talk about having 200 APM, while in others you worry about not having hot keys. My advice is to hotkey your army, CC/OCs, and your unit producing structures. Don't get worried about individual control groups for different units or whatever. Stop spamming. And just concentrate on always doing something with everything you have. | ||
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Tivo
United States121 Posts
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Ghost Reportin
83 Posts
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atenthirtyone
United States88 Posts
1. Your chronoboost. Your Nexus was easily sitting at 100 energy for at least a good 30 game seconds. You generally want to spend your chronoboosts constantly unless you are specifically aiming to pump out a certain tech or unit. Every time you aren't chronoboosting, (insert natural disaster) happens. 2. Basic macro: You aren't spending your minerals. You need to constantly make units/buildings. You were really late on your first zealot. 3. Early unit compositions. Why the second zealot? I'm not a P player, but generally you want a Stalker or a Sentry after the first zealot. | ||
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nyc863
200 Posts
Try this exercise: have a fun couple of hours trying to get to 3 base 200 food inside 13 minutes against a passive AI. You only need 3 bases to do this, and just one type of unit producing structure. To achieve it, you need to be on top of probe production, and you also need to build unit producing structures as a 2nd priority ahead of their need, and they all need to be producing but not queued heavily. It is probably impossible to do this without hotkeys so that is forced as well, and you also can't get supply blocked, neither can you queue up unit production until the last few minutes. You also need to transfer probes to the expansions in a fairly efficient manner, and set good rally points. These are all vital things to learn, my bet is it takes more than a few attempts to achieve. It helped me a lot. When you see 3 full saturated bases, about 65 workers, and a 200 army at 14 minutes it helps you feel how bad your macro is slipping in a real game  | ||
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aimless
United States57 Posts
PvP: You go for a 4 gate. Then you knock down the rocks behind both bases and it take an extra ~2 minutes for you to reach his base. 4 gate is a timing attack. You completely negated its purpose (especially in a mirror match) by delaying the attack. If you had attacked his front, you could have either pressured and expanded or killed his expansion. Also, I don't think early proxy pylons are useful to win games. Maybe at your level, but at higher levels they become increasingly risky to the point of just giving away minerals. PvT: You win this game. Congrats. But even in victory, I noticed a big red flag (which should have caused you to lose). Why did you scout? You received no information and went for a 3 gate robo against a Terran that made 2 rax fast and wanted to do a big stim marine push. Those immortals didn't help at all. It would have been better spent on zealots and sentries or a rush to colossus. If your opponent had gone for a marine rush, I'm not sure you would have held. PvZ: The opponent may have been smurfing. His APM was 150+ and his timing was fairly precise. But regardless of his skill, why did you scout? You saw a spawning pool and extractor, then left. If you had swung back in, you would have seen the roach warren and had time to chrono out an immortal or build a forge and get cannons. It seems like you know what to do and generally approximate a good player, but you don't have the sense of why you do some things. You rarely looked at your scouting worker and when you did, it was usually because it was being harassed away. You could count workers, pylons, structures, larvae, nexus energy, etc. But you only barely glance, and sometimes not at all. Think how often you really gain information from scouting. It might be better to simply forgo scouting and send a small attack force (zealot + stalker) to obtain your scouting information. I get the sense that you don't vary your build much based on what you see anyway. Also, your macro cannot be good if you get supply blocked early. Not getting supply blocked is 1/3 of good macro (constant worker production and constant unit production being the other 2/3). My advice is after 30+ food, just get a pylon ahead of yourself. Always have like a 6+ food gap between where you're at and the cap. | ||
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Ghost Reportin
83 Posts
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
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Xenocryst
United States521 Posts
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panda_inc
Australia170 Posts
next i would suggest practice the basic 4 gate build while keep building probes, using chronoboosts and not getting supply blocked. Keep it simple attack and expand and add more gateways and robotics for observers. Practice keep building probes and units and plyons. People in bronze do random things so it really not possible to learn how to play the game the right way. Just keep it simple and effective while practising your macro. This way you get alot of wins quickly and boosts your confidence and will get to diamond sooner where you can start practising real builds and watching ur replays to learn how to play properly. | ||
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meadbert
United States681 Posts
Basically when trying to get good at anything it is not necessarily good to watch the experts. I would not want someone who had just picked up basketball or soccer/football in the last year to watch the experts and try to copy their moves. It is better to focus on fundamentals. Behind the back passes, dunks and bicycle kicks can wait till you first learn the fundamentals. To get out of bronze I suggest you start by working on one build order. The four gate is fine. If you prefer macro games then 2 gate robo or 3 gate sentry expand are also fine, but 4 gate is probably the easier "get out of bronze free" card. The other alternative is the 5 zealot, 8 stalker 3 gate timing attack, although that is less likely to lead to macro games. You should know exactly what you are doing with it for the first 7ish game minutes. I would suggest going as far as writing it down! Once you get this build down, determine which matchup it is worst against and choose a build good against that matchup. Then add another build. After a while you will be good at 3-5 builds and you can audible between them based on scouting, so maybe you generally prefer 2 gate robo vs Zerg, but you scout Zerg fast expanding so you audible to 4 gate. That is more advanced, but rather than trying to start with 8 memorized build orders or worse, basically making them up on the spot, you are better off with just one at first that you are good at. It is the same philosophy in basketball. Rather than trying to simultaneously learn a 3 point shot, a left handed layup and a hook shoy, you are better just picking one and getting good at it. Then once you have masted it move to the next. If you want to play macro games ban the 1v1 maps since that will deter rushing to a certain extent and since many rushers/cheesers ban the 2v2 maps you will be playing against other players looking to play macro games more often. While getting out of bronze I do not suggest relying on micro or scouting. Rather than hoping to hold your ramp with Force Fields or relying on scouting the DTs coming, it is better to just know that DTs/Cloacked Banshees show up around 7ish mins and plan on having detection at that point. Now if you 4 gate and you get to their ramp and they have a large Zealot/Stalker/Sentry army then presumably they have not yet teched to DT so it is okay to delay, but plan on the observer or cannon. Against Terran and Toss if you plan to have detection by 7-8 mins, then it is okay to massively delay a scout (still scout your own base for cannon rush) or just scout their expansion timing. Against Zerg you need to scout for 6-9 pools on 1v1 maps to know if you need to fully wall in your ramp. An alternative which will get you out of Bronze, but is probably bad practice for higher leagues is to simply open forge first with 1 cannon without walling in. That becomes an autowin vs 6 pool and if you scout the 7RR on its way you can throw down a few extra cannons. Against Zerg you also need to know if the 7RR is coming in which case you should throw down cannons and crono the Immortal (as mentioned above.) Ideally you can hold the ramps with FFs for a while, but in reality it is very difficult to micro FFs while you macro. If you go 3 gate, sentry expand every game then you will get good at it, but I would not suggest just doing that if you see Roach because you will not have the needed practice. As far as micro goes you mostly need to know when to either run away or attack move. Other things that are bonusses are keeping your zealots in front and remembering to use your guardian shield. Whenever you are forced to choose between micro and macro it is almost always better to pay attention to the macro. If you are worried about losing a battle because you are being outmicroed while you macro then just run away and macro. To spend time microing only to miss a cycle of warp ins is almost never worth it. Basically a cycle of warpins with a 4 gate is 4 units so your micro would have to have saved 4 units. Generally micro is not that good at bronze level, so you are better just staying on top of your warp ins. However many buildings the pros have you should have more. For that reason while in bronze, it is not a bad idea to actually build 5 gates if you are 4 gating or build 3 gates if you are doing 2 gate robo. The reality is pros have insane apm and are right on top of their warp ins while those of us in Bronze/Silver do leave our gates idle at times while doing other things so having the extra structure helps us catch up on spending our resources. Even the pros will build "to many" gateways. This is because only gateways can reinforce when you are attacking so I have seen ogsMC go with 1 Stargate, 1 Robo and 4 Warpgates off 1 base. He cannot possibly support production out of 6 structures off of one base, but this allows him to build a diverse army with idle warpgates and then use all 4 warpgates to reinforce. For this reason extra gateways can be very useful and help solves issues where you suddenly find you are sitting on over 1K minerals. You can just drop extra gates or if you have them start warping in extra zealots. For Bronze do not worry too much about counters. The vast majority of games you win and lose will not be because your unit configuration was countered or you countered them. Instead choose a unit configuration that is flexible enough that there are no hard counters for it. For instance just go with 1 sentry, a front row of zealots, Stalkers and Colossus with maybe an Immortal thrown in and obviously an observer. Mostly that is Stalkers + Colossus. Assign all of your nexuses to one control group and queue up probes. Because probes are so inexpensive there is very little pain in having relatively long queues for your Nexuses. Also their low build time makes it difficult to stay on top them. Basically if I saw a queue of Collossi which was 3 long I would question your competance since that is an extra 1K resources that is tied up, but if you queue your Nexus 3 deep that is only 100 minerals which is no biggie. It is far better to be sitting down 200 mins with two Nexuses constantly producing than to frequently have idle nexusses. Ideally you should only have 1 probe in the queue and never have an idle nexus, but we are not perfect so better to queue the probes. This is basically the same philosophy as the pylons mentioned above. It is better to be sitting on an extra pylon at all times thus "wasting" 100 minerals than it is to get supply blocked. Even sitting on 2 extra pylons is better than getting supply blocked. I totally agree about macroing to 200/200. It is not a bad idea to continue playing till you macro to 200 in every game you win or at least when you play vs AI. | ||
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Azzur
Australia6259 Posts
On February 15 2011 09:37 Ghost Reportin wrote:I feel like my macros okay but i get supply blocked(i have trouble knowing food to pylon ration) and i feel like im too passive and I lose ALOT early game. For the next few games, perhaps concentrate mainly on this one thing - to avoid getting supply blocked. Yes, there are other macro mechanics to worry about, but work on it one at a time. Once you get this down, then maybe focus on probe/unit production, etc. In top-level games, getting supply blocked can lead to an auto-loss if rushed. I'm guessing this is what is similarly happening to your early game as well - where you just don't have enough units to defend against the rushes. There is a reasonable thread about benchmarks: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191745 The crux of the matter is, if you can get extra 10 supply just by executing everything better, that makes a HUGE difference. On February 15 2011 09:37 Ghost Reportin wrote:Another problem is I dont know the timing windows as to when I should attack. Don't worry about timing windows, that is for higher levels of play. My advice to you would be to build a reasonable unit composition (e.g. zealot/stalker/colossus, etc) off 3-bases, get to 200/200 and then attack. This will help improve your mechanics in the long run. For your next few games, go through the replays and note down the following: 1. Did you make probes constantly? 2. Did you make units constantly? 3. Did you get supply-capped? 4. Did you spend your minerals/gas? If you made any of those mistakes, focus on them for your subsequent games. | ||
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Leftwing
Canada229 Posts
As a fellow bronze player and former protoss player I can at least say that you simply just need to learn specifically what unit counters what. You have a good sense of the game however you are missing some key elements. As aimless said, your scouting was basically a waste of time, you could have simply just played blind than scout in those games. Scouting is key, because if you know what your opponent is doing you can counter him. This means not only do you need to pay attention and multitask while scouting, but you must understand your opponents plan for you to properly execute a counter. The best way to learn counters in my opinion is to watch this, or any sort of VoD: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=177791 While this is based specifically for zerg, by watching the match ups against protoss (ie. zvp) you can analyze the decisions made by those players who so graciously donated their time to helping fellow players like us improve our game. I also found these videos great because they often discuss the timing pushes and the time in which you should expect a certain attack by your opponent (ie. when banshees will reach your mineral line to harass, when to expect your opponent to attack). However, being in bronze league has it's drawbacks. I find fewer players like to play respectful macro games rather than the cheesy cannon rushes and 6 pool. I also find it hard to move beyond bronze, even though I have won 16 of my last 20 games, with streaks like 6-7 games in a row I cannot get out, simply because I'm losing to cannon and 6 poolers. In conclusion, follow what aimless has mentioned, remember to not get supply blocked (you need additional pylons!) and use them chronoboosts. I'd also suggest picking a build and sticking with it, like the 4gate. I recommend playing around with YABOT to find a build order that suits your play. Practice it enough and you should find yourself out of bronze league fairly quickly. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=128752 Hope that helps! | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
I will not be on this week, but I will be on a lot the following week as it is reading break. Shoot me a message if you have time Proxy #840 | ||
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Ghost Reportin
83 Posts
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TERRANLOL
United States626 Posts
On February 15 2011 12:08 Ghost Reportin wrote: i want you guys to note that i always have 4 times as many workers as my opponent gerneally i have anywhere from 70-100 workers. so probe production isnt the problem. i play with yabot alot and it haswnt done nothing for me yet. i think itd be more help someone could analyze my replays tahts why i posted them. thanks aimless and everyone else for helping. a thousand blessings and smiles are wished upon you all Ghost, I want to help you out but I don't want to read your whole post  I'm a master terran and diamond zerg. I've been using my zerg account lately so add TERRANLOL.594 I'll help you get some standard attacks for each race so you have something to make small adjustments to. EDIT: OK lol I did read it but I didn't watch the replays | ||
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smocca
United States83 Posts
Your build is very 'slow'. Your first pylon went down FAR too late, which made you gateway late, which made you cybercore late etc. Once you gateway finished, you didn't start making a zealot until your cybercore was about done. If that is normal, then that is probably why you "lose a LOT early game". If your first zealot is later than it should be, you are going to be extremely vulnerable to any sort of early pressure. Even if you don't get cheesed out, your army is still going to be smaller than it should be especially early on. You also are not using chrono well. You don't use it at all on your Nexus and then you seemed to throw 3 chronos into your cybercore immediately (they don't stack like that FYI, you have to wait for one to end before you start the next). You also used it on your gateway to get the Zealot out quickly despite letting that gateway sit idle for like a minute. Try to hammer out kinks like that. It will make a world of difference in defending early pressure. Try to get that 9 pylon put down exactly at 100 minerals. Chrono probes out as soon as that pylon finishes. Start your gateway immediately (probably at 12 food and 150 minerals). At the start of the game nothing matters more than hitting these timings down to the very nanosecond because they have a huge effect on your position in the early game and beyond. If that pylon is delayed by 15 seconds and that gateway is delayed by 10 seconds and you don't start a Zealot for another 15 after the gateway finishes then your zealot is going to be 35 seconds late. Not to mention your cybercore will be late and so warpgate tech will be late (and so will any other tech you go for). If you have to choose between hitting your timings perfectly or microing your scouting probe always always always hit your timings. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10328 Posts
Pre-teen development limits physical and mental coordination needed for starcraft at higher levels even just low diamond. Older individuals who almost never play video games or didn't play many video games before sc2 will have a hard time learning the skills they need to play well due to lack of familiarity with computers and their use. Really? didn't know... I felt pretty fast back when I played WC3 xD Anyways, hard to know what your problem exactly is, whether it be bad macro (you say you are decent) or some really simple mistakes in game plan, but... IT IS IMPORTANT that you know that you do not need to know build orders step by step! That's not the point! If you have a good game sense, you won't need to memorize build orders, even if your timings aren't as crisp and pretty. You only "need" these build orders if you want to practice something very specific and so you can memorize it and remember how to beat it next time. However if you become experienced at "winging" things, you will develop a good game sense with rough timings and etc. It's not at what food you do things, but the order you do them. (a golden rule, paraphrased from day9) Don't worry about the specific builds and not knowing "enough" builds. That's not the point. I play in low masters level and I can barely even remember a few builds exactly; i only remember roughly, as in the order things are done. If you don't already I suggest you watch Day9. His videos are long but even at my level I can learn something very useful (game sense wise, not like a specific build order or etc.) that will help me out. If you're at Bronze, I can only imagine you'd be learning a shit ton of new amazing stuff every time you watch his videos. Note: I also understand there is a lot of cheese in Bronze level, and cheese can be very hard to stop unless you have a strong game sense or have practiced and know what to do against different kinds of cheeses beforehand. Otherwise you won't know what to do and not knowing what to do against certain cheeses is what usually loses you the game. Is it just the cheese that you are losing to? | ||
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