EPT[Q]PvT ogsMc/voidray opening
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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Sleight
2471 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
but on short distances you will get rolled, Terran just needs to all in you. 4 marines kill 1 Voidray, not a good trade. | ||
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Hyren
United States817 Posts
Since it is frowned upon to post replays where I win, I am not going to post any replays and simply refer to the games by MC 2 GSLs ago I think that you are mistaken. Posting replays where you win is frowned upon when you are the one asking for help, not when you are discussing a strategy. | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
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Obelisco
Peru1962 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
I've also seen 3 other oGsMC builds involving voidrays. They are: 3 gate stargate all-in, a different 3 gate stargate all-in, and 2 gate stargate expo. Do not confuse these builds for the same build. They are actually very different and each has a different purpose. All 4 builds differ in the choice of the first gateway units and number of gateways. Once you commit to a certain set of units, you cannot go to a different voidray build. The most impressive aspect of oGsMC's play is his ability to choose the right build based on his very limited scouting information. As for counters to this 5 stalker + voidray build you're probably talking about, 2 rax expand with a reactor first solidly counters this build, as does 3 rax. 1-1-1 builds where terran doesn't get a wall off are good vs this build. Also, if he scouts your stargate and goes viking first on his starport, you will be behind. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On February 11 2011 08:31 da_head wrote: are you referrin to three gate star? that's been a pretty common opening for a while.. I've used it since August 2010, either a 2gate or 3gate variant. It will either win the game or force a hard contain + harass that is just unbeatable. There are 3 ways to survive it: 1. you scan and are lucky and find the starport 2. you have played against a player who does this a lot and know it's coming 3. you go pure reactored marines because you planned for a marine/raven/banshee push The good thing is that it is only as all-in as you allow it to go, and if you can't win with it you delay their expansion for so long that you can tech or mass on just 2 bases to destroy the Terran. Follow up is to get bay/facility for colossus to add to gate/VR on 2 bases. Masters league <--- | ||
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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LesPhoques
Canada782 Posts
This thread is pretty useless imo, no discussion whatsoever | ||
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
Vs 2 rax expand on close air distance Ex: vs IMMVP in gisado KOTH on metal 2 gate stargate expand. Gateway units should be more focused on zealot and sentry initially. MC put down a stargate once his probe luckily got up the ramp of the terran and scouted 2 rax. The concept of this build is to get 1 voidray and use it to pin you opponent in his base. This voidray also serves the purposes of forcing more marine heavy than he would like and being a scout. If you're really lucky, you can even force some turrets with just 1 voidray. A very marine heavy army can lose to pure gateway units with good forcefields if he chooses to attack you.. Then, when you finally get collosi, you'll rape his marine heavy army. Vs 1 rax expand: Ex: vs jinro on Shakrus in GSL 3 gate stargate with zealot/sentry heavy early on. At 7:55, all-in with 2 voidray, 3 zealot, 4 stalker, 2 sentry Vs low ground rax/depot: Ex: vs MKP on LT in GSL 3 gate stargate. Puts up a pylon on low ground and uses voidray for vision to warp onto high ground. I wouldn't recommend this build. It's very hard to execute and MC kinda got lucky in this game. I think MC was originally planning to depot bust and this was his backup plan. | ||
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EliteReplay
Dominican Republic913 Posts
On February 11 2011 09:31 4kmonk wrote: Vs a wall off: 2 gate stargate with 1 zealot 5 stalkers, robo at 6:30, hit at 7:00-7:10. I've seen MC do this build every time he scouts a wall off and he's won about 10/10 games with this build. I do a similar version that hits faster, cuts less probes, and hits with 4 stalkers instead. Vs 2 rax expand on close air distance Ex: vs IMMVP in gisado KOTH on metal 2 gate stargate expand. Gateway units should be more focused on zealot and sentry initially. MC put down a stargate once his probe luckily got up the ramp of the terran and scouted 2 rax. The concept of this build is to get 1 voidray and use it to pin you opponent in his base. This voidray also serves the purposes of forcing more marine heavy than he would like and being a scout. If you're really lucky, you can even force some turrets with just 1 voidray. A very marine heavy army can lose to pure gateway units with good forcefields if he chooses to attack you.. Then, when you finally get collosi, you'll rape his marine heavy army. Vs 1 rax expand: Ex: vs jinro on Shakrus in GSL 3 gate stargate with zealot/sentry heavy early on. At 7:55, all-in with 2 voidray, 3 zealot, 4 stalker, 2 sentry Vs low ground rax/depot: Ex: vs MKP on LT in GSL 3 gate stargate. Puts up a pylon on low ground and uses voidray for vision to warp onto high ground. I wouldn't recommend this build. It's very hard to execute and MC kinda got lucky in this game. I think MC was originally planning to depot bust and this was his backup plan. Impresive analisys man, thanks for this, i understand part of the BO mc use but u are really good at understanding why he choose X BO vs T | ||
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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hitman133
United States1425 Posts
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
If you are looking for a standard blind opening, stick with 2 gate robo. | ||
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Phayze
Canada2029 Posts
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Widar
Sweden261 Posts
So I can write it down. Or perhaps link a thread that has it? | ||
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aegishonoris
United States4 Posts
On February 11 2011 11:32 iamke55 wrote: Wow, this is the perfect example of a player copying a pro's build without understanding the reasoning behind it. Getting a fast void ray is not something you go into the game planning to do. It's a response to scouting the Terran's wall off, which is sometimes seen on maps that are good for proxy gates. In a few Boxer replays I see that he doesn't wall in. Sadly, he lost all of those games! But to you I ask, what do you, as a Protoss, do when 1. there is no wall off 2. there is a bunker defending 3. Terran goes viking? If iamke55 is correct and the Void Ray is truly a response to a wall in, then is the early Void Ray not beneficial in the absence of the early wall-in? Moreover, if you claim one does not go into a game planning to build an early Void Ray, is it because its effectiveness is only found vs. an early wall? As I see it, the early wall allows the Void Ray to charge up, making it deadly to Marines, the only real anti-air that early if Terran forgoes Vikings, hence the value of the early Void Ray. Is the Void Ray really only a response to the wall? | ||
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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W2
United States1177 Posts
replay of me doing MC's build with good execution. Enjoy | ||
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drcatellino
Canada346 Posts
Then I began experimenting with void rays build and my life changed for the best. Basically I use a 3gate stargate build. Here is the build order and global strategy I use: + Show Spoiler + 9 Pylon 13 Gateway 14 Assimilator 15 Pylon 16 Cyb core 17 Assimilator 17 Zealot (not counting anymore) Research Warp Gate, then when you have enough gas build the stargate Then 2 more Gateway When Stargate finishes, build void ray then place proxy pylon. At 6:05, the first void ray finishes. Warp in 1 sentry and 2 stalker. Between 6:40 and 7:00 you should be ready to launch your attack. If wall in, poke it and use low ground stalker to kill stuff. If no wall in, just walk in and use force field to mess with your opponent infantry. Void rays should focus on marauders. Void rays reinforcement should be on the way if the attack does not succeed immediatly. Keep sending waves of Gateway units too. You should focus on killing the add-ons first, then the production buildings (if there is a starport kill it). This attack don't have to be focused on mineral line since void rays kill buildings so fast. I used this build about 20 times against Terran. I lost 2 times to people with no wall-in and awesome marines control. ( I am 2500 Diamond) Here is a replay of this build, against a player using tanks. It's mostly to show the timing you should focus on. ![[image loading]](http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5404/voidrayreplay.jpg) DrCatellino vs KYU | ||
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Azzur
Australia6255 Posts
The 3-gate 1-star build is a powerful, flexible protoss opening that can outright kill or contain the terran which allows the protoss to seize an economic lead. As some people have pointed out, there are several variations to it, but if you're not at the pro-level, any basic 3-gate 1-star will do. In fact, my build is tailored to fight against this specific protoss build. I open 1-1-1 cloaked banshees with reactored marines. If the terran goes infantry (especially marauder) heavy (like 3-rax), they can also hold it off provided the play defensively and expand. If they go for a timing push, this can lead to a loss. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10318 Posts
Vs a wall off: 2 gate stargate with 1 zealot 5 stalkers, robo at 6:30, hit at 7:00-7:10. I've seen MC do this build every time he scouts a wall off and he's won about 10/10 games with this build. I do a similar version that hits faster, cuts less probes, and hits with 4 stalkers instead. Vs 2 rax expand on close air distance Ex: vs IMMVP in gisado KOTH on metal 2 gate stargate expand. Gateway units should be more focused on zealot and sentry initially. MC put down a stargate once his probe luckily got up the ramp of the terran and scouted 2 rax. The concept of this build is to get 1 voidray and use it to pin you opponent in his base. This voidray also serves the purposes of forcing more marine heavy than he would like and being a scout. If you're really lucky, you can even force some turrets with just 1 voidray. A very marine heavy army can lose to pure gateway units with good forcefields if he chooses to attack you.. Then, when you finally get collosi, you'll rape his marine heavy army. Vs 1 rax expand: Ex: vs jinro on Shakrus in GSL 3 gate stargate with zealot/sentry heavy early on. At 7:55, all-in with 2 voidray, 3 zealot, 4 stalker, 2 sentry Vs low ground rax/depot: Ex: vs MKP on LT in GSL 3 gate stargate. Puts up a pylon on low ground and uses voidray for vision to warp onto high ground. I wouldn't recommend this build. It's very hard to execute and MC kinda got lucky in this game. I think MC was originally planning to depot bust and this was his backup plan. Wow thanks man  | ||
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Tekst
United States14 Posts
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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Quochobao
United States350 Posts
On February 11 2011 12:55 Mada_Jiang wrote: I am not questioning the masters here or anything saying that its in response to wall... but the fact of the matter is, my friend's 14 yo cousin who is a silver can exicute a 3 gate void, and run up when there is no wall and obliterate the T that happens to be low masters. . I really really do wish that you can post a replay to back this claim up. No walling means he's not teching too hard-- thus I'm having difficulty imagining how the Terran lost the fight. Any other replays of you is welcome too. | ||
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Azzur
Australia6255 Posts
On February 11 2011 15:04 Mada_Jiang wrote: Thanks Azzur, i have always felt that by the time 1 void comes out, the 3rd gate isn't really ready it, if i replace that gate with a robo, wouldn't that be better equiped for handeling banshees, while having the same attack force? Or maybe I am just doing it totally wrong. Dude if you have any reps I would love to see them please, and thanks to all who posted reps. Spectacular. Azzur I am sure I have seen your nickname somewherebefore, at a Lan or at a netcafe. You are Sydney sider? I don't think I have any replays where I fend off the 3-gate 1-star. I don't play protoss so I'm not sure about the specific timings of the 2-gate 1-star 1-robo. However, my feeling is that it's a safer build but will have less chance of killing the terran outright. You may have run into me on the ladder perhaps, I live in Perth. | ||
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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LeoLeo
Sweden456 Posts
ALL THE TIME It's really hard to hold and you gotta know if it's coming, I have a thumb rule: If u see 2 gas and no robo (because who proxies a robo?), it's a 3 gate stargate or a DT rush. What I do most games is open banshee and if I see no robo i throw down another rax make a reactoer on my factory and after my banshee and raven I make double viking and laugh at them. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On February 11 2011 11:32 iamke55 wrote: Wow, this is the perfect example of a player copying a pro's build without understanding the reasoning behind it. Getting a fast void ray is not something you go into the game planning to do. It's a response to scouting the terran's wall off, which is sometimes seen on maps that are good for proxy gates. The idea is to pick off the two supply depots in the wall and force a response in the form of either turrets which are expensive, or a high marine count which allows you to kite with stalkers. It spots a banshee opening in time to get observers for cloak, and the presence of the stargate means your opponent will think twice about going for a 2 port timing. If you are looking for a standard blind opening, stick with 2 gate robo. Please people listen to this man. I've played around with this opening A LOT and I found it to be just too weak against standard MM play unless you go all-in. Against the typical wall-off there exists a really strong timing where you attack with 5 stalkers (3 built from the gate, 2 warped in) and a single voidray while getting your robotics and your expansion. You pick off depots, warp in 2 stalkers at home while getting an observer against the cloak-threat and are in a great position against outright mech-play. The reason why the voidray-opening works so good against a wall is, because a voidray has higher-range than a marine. Therefore there are always spots where you can shoot at stuff without marines being able to hit you back. And even if 2-3 can, then there are your stalkers picking them off. The problem against MM expo is, that many terrans learned that they need 2-3 bunkers to not die to a 4 gate. Unless you really are MC and can place 6-8 forcefields perfectly in split-seconds, then this will prevent any all-in. Just to put this into perspective, the 3 gate stargate loses even against a no gas mass-marine FE with mass-bunkers. Obviously you can't do any voidray-harassment against such an opening at all. Basicly if you go stargate against a 1 rax FE you already are in a position where you have to do damage because you are behind economicly. This is also why MC went all-in. Then this opening gets reduced to a meager all-in timing attack, like marine/tank, marine/banshee etc. Not stable. Against a more conservative 2 rax expansion with more marauders you can do some harassment and expo yourself. Nevertheles the problem here is the transition. I played some time with a build HuK used, to harass with voidrays, expand and tech hard to storm. Since he needs some marines at home he won't be attacking you (unless all-in). Nevertheless this has a very weak timing, especially if he gets turrets up. Due to the fact that you force marines, you have to get colossi better sooner than later. And here comes another problem into play....namely that terrans will want to slowly tech to vikings to have an additional force against your voidrays. They hardly ever will stay with pure mass marines. Now these vikings just happen to hard-counter your colossi. This means, while primarily forcing marines, you ALSO already force the perfect counter to the colossus which you are teching to after all. If you slow-tech to colossus after a robotics, the terran relies on scouting and intuition. Because blind vikings will lose him the game against a double forge play with early third and against an early storm-tech. If you open with void-rays the terran has his tech-path perfectly layed out - first get more marines than marauders, then add vikings. There is hardly anything you can surprise him with, unless you hard-tech to storm which again can mean you just die right before storm tech is ready. | ||
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Lurk
Germany359 Posts
However, sometimes i just die to the push, especially if i don't see it coming and it's a map with a long mineral line - ramp distance (like SoW). I'd say i have about 75 % success rate though. Phoenix openers on the other hand ... just drive me crazy. | ||
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On February 11 2011 20:48 Mada_Jiang wrote: Thanks sleepingdog and lurk. I am assuming you are like.... high masters or something am I right? Was wondering if you had some reps to share, and if you can maybe comment on what you think would be an ideal opening. It's hard when we have 2 master P and Ts telling me how amazing voidray opening is and how it can outright win or "FORCE" a contain.... while you are saying that it is only for wall in, and even then not so good because there is no adequate follow up, is that right? Please don't get me wrong, I don't doubt what you say, I would just love to see it happen... iamke55, sleeping dog and lurk, if you have reps please share and much thanks for wisdom. Nope I'm not in masters, currently my MMR is high diamond/low masters (ppl I get matched up against). The only "prove" that I have concerning the unviability of voidray harassment is that it's rarely done in pro-games. If you have read my post closely, I have NEVER stated that it can't outright win or force a contain. My whole post was centered about the point that it's not that viable against a 1 rax or 2 rax FE where you want to go into a macro-game. If this wasn't clear enough, then I want to state it here again explicitly. The voidray opening done by MC vs Jinro on shakuras and against MKP on LT was therefore very all-in-ish. I doubt that MC had that much of a back-up-plan in case it failed. Also I saw MC open voidray-harass on xeph's stream vs NexByun...the harass didn't go too well and MC lost the game because his expo was ages behind. Conclusion: voidray opening a) vs wall-in: really good opening, you can always do damage if you don't screw it up. Follow it up with a robotics and an expansion, you will be ahead. You delay/prevent timing-attacks, are safe vs banshees and delay the expansion of terran. b) vs 1 rax/2rax expo: not a very good opening if you want to go into macro-mode. You have to delay your nexus because you won't be able to defend it against aggressive marine-heavy MM play. Also the harass forces vikings after the marines, which is bad because of the colossus-transition. Nevertheless it's a good and viable strategy when played as an all-in. However - as every all-in - it can be defended with proper preparation. I have a folder with about 5-10 successful non all-in stargate-opening-replays by pros and by myself...if you want I can post the ones against the wall-off to see why it's so effective. | ||
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Lurk
Germany359 Posts
If he relies heavily on marines and bunkers to fend you off, you can still try to pick off stray marines with stalkers and harass the mineral lines and try to force stims (he won't have medivacs for a long time to it's gonna hurt). As long as you don't loose your rays you'll be fine. He can't attack you because his marines will get slaughtered by your stalkers without the cover of bunkers. So you'll be free to expand yourself and switch to whatever tech you like. If he techs (1/1/1) he will likely have a viking on the way by the time you get to his base and have a bunker full of marines at the ramp. In this case, you can still do some damage - pick off a depot, harass the mineral line with the ray (if he pulls the marines out of the bunker to battle the ray, charge the front with the stalkers). Sometimes, he the terran is not scouting properly, you can put a pylon near his base and warp in stalkers inside his base with the vision from the ray. His 6-7 marines he will have by that time won't stand a chance without their bunker. In any case, you'll want to get a robo ASAP and chrono out an observer to fight the cloaked banshee(s) that are most likely on the way. Always remember that your only goal is to kill all his marines, even if you loose all your stalkers by doing that - it won't matter if he has marauders left. Once he has no marines left, your voidray(s) WILL kill him. He can only reproduce marines 2-3 at a time and that's not enough to handle a VR (which will recharge shields in between waves). I will try to look over my replays and see if find some but i'm not facing this build very often so keep you fingers crosses (phoenix openings seem to be way more popular nowadays). | ||
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Thorxes
United States119 Posts
On February 11 2011 18:20 sleepingdog wrote: Please people listen to this man. I've played around with this opening A LOT and I found it to be just too weak against standard MM play unless you go all-in. Against the typical wall-off there exists a really strong timing where you attack with 5 stalkers (3 built from the gate, 2 warped in) and a single voidray while getting your robotics and your expansion. You pick off depots, warp in 2 stalkers at home while getting an observer against the cloak-threat and are in a great position against outright mech-play. The reason why the voidray-opening works so good against a wall is, because a voidray has higher-range than a marine. Therefore there are always spots where you can shoot at stuff without marines being able to hit you back. And even if 2-3 can, then there are your stalkers picking them off. The problem against MM expo is, that many terrans learned that they need 2-3 bunkers to not die to a 4 gate. Unless you really are MC and can place 6-8 forcefields perfectly in split-seconds, then this will prevent any all-in. Just to put this into perspective, the 3 gate stargate loses even against a no gas mass-marine FE with mass-bunkers. Obviously you can't do any voidray-harassment against such an opening at all. Basicly if you go stargate against a 1 rax FE you already are in a position where you have to do damage because you are behind economicly. This is also why MC went all-in. Then this opening gets reduced to a meager all-in timing attack, like marine/tank, marine/banshee etc. Not stable. Against a more conservative 2 rax expansion with more marauders you can do some harassment and expo yourself. Nevertheles the problem here is the transition. I played some time with a build HuK used, to harass with voidrays, expand and tech hard to storm. Since he needs some marines at home he won't be attacking you (unless all-in). Nevertheless this has a very weak timing, especially if he gets turrets up. Due to the fact that you force marines, you have to get colossi better sooner than later. And here comes another problem into play....namely that terrans will want to slowly tech to vikings to have an additional force against your voidrays. They hardly ever will stay with pure mass marines. Now these vikings just happen to hard-counter your colossi. This means, while primarily forcing marines, you ALSO already force the perfect counter to the colossus which you are teching to after all. If you slow-tech to colossus after a robotics, the terran relies on scouting and intuition. Because blind vikings will lose him the game against a double forge play with early third and against an early storm-tech. If you open with void-rays the terran has his tech-path perfectly layed out - first get more marines than marauders, then add vikings. There is hardly anything you can surprise him with, unless you hard-tech to storm which again can mean you just die right before storm tech is ready. What if the strat is to hold off early MM and MMM pushes by forcing the vikings early? Yes you force vikings that counter the colossus you need to get in order to make it to the late game, but if you have a stargate up, why not cut VR production and pump out a few pheonix to soak up some damage from the vikings and return some fire on them? Essentially you delay Terrans early push while getting the tech needed to make your colossus survive longer. This may not work, but I'm trying to play devil's advocate and find a good way to transition out of the early game from this build. | ||
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Vega62a
946 Posts
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Azzur
Australia6255 Posts
On February 11 2011 18:01 Mada_Jiang wrote: Does that meant you been killed by 3 gate star consistently? Thats ok, how about replays of you getting rolled by 3 gate star lol. Back in the GSL3 days, I saw this opening alot more and that is how I tweaked my build to better handle it. Currently on the NA ladder, I haven't seen this opening that much. I would say I have good results when facing against it and some break-evens. It is useful as a surprise weapon because many people are not expecting it. Sleepingdog does speak the truth in that a defensive terran play can beat the 3-gate 1-star opening. Anyways, if you follow the GSL, many terrans now do some sort of infantry based early expand (which is good against the 3-gate 1-star). Also, the protosses have been doing some sort of gateway sentry based bunker FF-bust so that is also going to reflect on the ladder since many ppl copy pros. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/137941-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-caverns http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/137939-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-caverns http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/121841-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-caverns http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/121840-1v1-terran-protoss-lost-temple http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/121796-1v1-terran-protoss-lost-temple If you see you can't win you force a sentry contain and macro. I favor High Templar in this matchup mixed with either Immortals or Void Rays or both, depending on bases. HT/Immortal is super hard to stop since storm takes care of marines, and weakens marauders to the point where they are 1-2 shot by Immortals. If you have HT,VR you storm the marines then run your gateway army away, letting the VRs take care of everything else. The problem with Vikings is they are pretty weak to storm/VR too, taking a good deal of total health % from a single storm, so there is no real answer to this comp by T. They can still win, but only if they avoid head on engagements with the deathball. | ||
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hitman133
United States1425 Posts
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Overpowered
Czech Republic764 Posts
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On February 12 2011 04:42 hitman133 wrote: This build should give protoss time to expand and macro up while contain terran in base. I don't think you should all-in with this strategy You can't really all-in with 1 base on this, you will have a surplus of minerals after a bit. It might look like all-inning when a P player continues to push without expanding, but it is most likely because they know the game is over and that it is only a matter of time that T loses. It would be because P did so much damage to the T that there is no need to prolong the match. | ||
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drcatellino
Canada346 Posts
Anyone know the earliest possible time you can get a Viking ? Because my timing execution gives me 1 void ray, 2 stalker, 1 sentry and a zealot at my enemy base @ 6:40. And if he goes all the way to Vikings, there is many chances he won't have a lot of infantry, or stim/concusive shell, so you can use the 3gate units to crush him, leaving the void ray a little behind until you cleared the place. Also, I like to somewhat block my base with buildings and a zealot (the same way as PvZ) to deny scouting. If he don't know stargate is on the way it is unlikely he'll go viking anyway. | ||
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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inFeZa
Australia556 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
I want to emphazise the robotics-timing: you see that this build gets the robotics at an approriate time to chrono-boost an observer out in case you suspect a banshee-tech (meaning, when you don't see a tank when you push). Therefore this build isn't risky or unstable in any way. It's supposed to give you a lead while going into a macro-game. Although it mostly ends in your opponent just all-in-ing you anyways. First my poor noobish self doing it vs what was supposed to be a tank-push: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-188380.jpg) Second HuK shows how it's done against I think Naama (it's the mouzTosh-acc the whole mouz-clan uses on NA server). Utter destruction of a thor-push. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-188381.jpg) Enjoy | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On February 12 2011 19:11 sleepingdog wrote: As promised, here are two replays I found in my folders that demonstrate why the 5 stalker VR opening is so strong vs 111. I want to emphazise the robotics-timing: you see that this build gets the robotics at an approriate time to chrono-boost an observer out in case you suspect a banshee-tech (meaning, when you don't see a tank when you push). Therefore this build isn't risky or unstable in any way. It's supposed to give you a lead while going into a macro-game. Although it mostly ends in your opponent just all-in-ing you anyways. First my poor noobish self doing it vs what was supposed to be a tank-push: Second HuK shows how it's done against I think Naama (it's the mouzTosh-acc the whole mouz-clan uses on NA server). Utter destruction of a thor-push. Enjoy That's not HuK... it's oGsMC using his account. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10318 Posts
Vs 2 rax expand on close air distance Ex: vs IMMVP in gisado KOTH on metal 2 gate stargate expand. Gateway units should be more focused on zealot and sentry initially. MC put down a stargate once his probe luckily got up the ramp of the terran and scouted 2 rax. The concept of this build is to get 1 voidray and use it to pin you opponent in his base. This voidray also serves the purposes of forcing more marine heavy than he would like and being a scout. If you're really lucky, you can even force some turrets with just 1 voidray. A very marine heavy army can lose to pure gateway units with good forcefields if he chooses to attack you.. Then, when you finally get collosi, you'll rape his marine heavy army. Vs 1 rax expand: Ex: vs jinro on Shakrus in GSL 3 gate stargate with zealot/sentry heavy early on. At 7:55, all-in with 2 voidray, 3 zealot, 4 stalker, 2 sentry Question now that I look at this again. Why do you say this? For 2 rax expand, that means his expo will be later than 1 rax expand, but how does that equate to you getting 1 more gate? If his expo is later, doesn't that mean you should need less gates? If someone can explain this, then thank you! | ||
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antz0r
Australia168 Posts
Here is a caster showing how he defends against this. I only saw it last night- and have always had trouble vs this opening so long as the void rays sit behind the stalkers or worse- if they attack over cliffs or go off the edge of the map. I've also been fooled by people showing 4 warpgates in a common spot where you scan, but have a hidden stargate somewhere else which makes it more all-in.. but it made me go marauder heavy and I got totally raped. | ||
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Rabbitmaster
1357 Posts
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CCalms
United States341 Posts
Here is a replay of me harassing with early stalkers and void rays and then expanding and going mass gateway count to eventually make a terran ragequit: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/138544-1v1-terran-protoss-delta-quadrant My macro drop a little bit after my expansion gets up (I go up to about 700 minerals) but other than that it's a pretty perfect example of how to punish walling terrans. | ||
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Pookie Monster
United States303 Posts
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Mega One
United States31 Posts
On February 13 2011 09:48 antz0r wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3lnKI10n5o Here is a caster showing how he defends against this. I only saw it last night- and have always had trouble vs this opening so long as the void rays sit behind the stalkers or worse- if they attack over cliffs or go off the edge of the map. I've also been fooled by people showing 4 warpgates in a common spot where you scan, but have a hidden stargate somewhere else which makes it more all-in.. but it made me go marauder heavy and I got totally raped. Wow, that's a nice build. I liked his lecture on RQ at the end. | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On February 11 2011 08:38 Obelisco wrote: Are you talking about the one that oGsMC uses with 1 voidray 4-5 stalkers? If yes, I would only think its useful when terrans have done a wall off. With this you can succesfully snipe some depots, maybe the rax's addons or even the barracks with no danger of loosing units, as stalkers would kill marines fast and marauders would be killed by the void ray if you micro succesfully. If the terran hasn't walled-off i can't think of anything you can do with this specific opening It's not as high dps-wise but you can do the same thing with stalker/sentry and an ob with a 2 gate robo opening. The void start seems a little bit one base-ish all-in-ish. You also need to be completely certain no banshee play is coming. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On February 13 2011 09:40 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Question now that I look at this again. Why do you say this? For 2 rax expand, that means his expo will be later than 1 rax expand, but how does that equate to you getting 1 more gate? If his expo is later, doesn't that mean you should need less gates? If someone can explain this, then thank you! It's because the first build is an expand pressure build, so you get the minimal amount of gates you need to survive. You pump continuously from 2 gates while building a nexus and making probes. In the 2nd build, you all-in so you pump continuously from 1 stargate and 3 gateways while cutting probes. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10318 Posts
So theoretically, the 3 gate stargate all-in would also work if they go 2 rax expand, but it's too extreme and you don't need to right? While you go all-in for the 1 rax expand because they're really skimping on units and so it's really "safe" to just kill him? | ||
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milfhunter
45 Posts
Please let me know. Thx. Just wanna say Yoshi Kirishma is a fuken baller with all those builds on page 2. My question is what is the 2 gate voidray pressure - expo build? I've been experienting with this all of yesterday and been watching some Vods, Is that what ogsMC does? I manage to get the 1 zealot 5 stalker by the time I hit their choke, but I didn't know what are the good follow ups just in case I get repelled. Will someone of the wisemen like, emporerererer, sleeping dog, monk, yoshi, Ichau, iamke55 or someone like that please give some wisdom. Would you guys have any specific build orders or timings for expo and when to get colossus? The reason I ask is because I am really stupid and can't seen to wing it my self so I drill the same order over and over again until I ball at it. Also is the pressure - expo build also something you would see as an economy build? Would it be something you can use as a staple build? A have a few friends in my class who got to master purely with this Vs T. Thanks very much. edit: Sleeping dog your reps are ballsome | ||
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