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[Q]PvT ogsMc/voidray opening

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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1 2 3 Next All
Mada_Jiang
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Australia236 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-12 05:16:52
February 10 2011 23:20 GMT
#1
--- Nuked ---
Sleight
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
2471 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-10 23:23:13
February 10 2011 23:22 GMT
#2
I feel you should include a BO for reference. I don't think 1 gate FE is safe at ALL currently, so I wouldn't compare this opening to that in terms of "standard-ness." In fact, 3 gate FE is InControl's standard and many people won't do less than a 2 gate Robo opening because of the insane Bio pushes currently popular in NA.

One Love
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
February 10 2011 23:22 GMT
#3
This is a technique to punish a specific timing window where terran is very weak. Players like MVP who have realized this and tailored their play to be very safe will not fall to it, and as terrans get better this type of build will likely fall into disuse. Add in to the fact that if your foe is going for a cloak banshee play, you're in a good deal of trouble, and it's not exactly safe either.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
freetgy
Profile Joined November 2010
1720 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-10 23:26:32
February 10 2011 23:26 GMT
#4
on bigger maps this might be viable, since you can abuse shields for a good amount of time.
but on short distances you will get rolled, Terran just needs to all in you.
4 marines kill 1 Voidray, not a good trade.

Hyren
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States817 Posts
February 10 2011 23:28 GMT
#5
Since it is frowned upon to post replays where I win, I am not going to post any replays and simply refer to the games by MC 2 GSLs ago

I think that you are mistaken. Posting replays where you win is frowned upon when you are the one asking for help, not when you are discussing a strategy.
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da_head
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada3350 Posts
February 10 2011 23:31 GMT
#6
are you referrin to three gate star? that's been a pretty common opening for a while..
When they see MC Probe, all the ladies disrobe.
Obelisco
Profile Joined January 2011
Peru1962 Posts
February 10 2011 23:38 GMT
#7
Are you talking about the one that oGsMC uses with 1 voidray 4-5 stalkers? If yes, I would only think its useful when terrans have done a wall off. With this you can succesfully snipe some depots, maybe the rax's addons or even the barracks with no danger of loosing units, as stalkers would kill marines fast and marauders would be killed by the void ray if you micro succesfully. If the terran hasn't walled-off i can't think of anything you can do with this specific opening
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8477 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-10 23:48:41
February 10 2011 23:46 GMT
#8
I've studied MC's builds a lot so here's my take on it. oGsMC has many voidray builds and although they may look the same they're all very different. The one he uses the most is the one i assume you're talking about. That build hits with 5 stalkers and 1 voidray and its intended purpose is to depot bust and to scout what your opponent is doing. The build is approximately: gate stargate gate then robo around 6:30.

I've also seen 3 other oGsMC builds involving voidrays. They are: 3 gate stargate all-in, a different 3 gate stargate all-in, and 2 gate stargate expo. Do not confuse these builds for the same build. They are actually very different and each has a different purpose. All 4 builds differ in the choice of the first gateway units and number of gateways. Once you commit to a certain set of units, you cannot go to a different voidray build. The most impressive aspect of oGsMC's play is his ability to choose the right build based on his very limited scouting information.

As for counters to this 5 stalker + voidray build you're probably talking about, 2 rax expand with a reactor first solidly counters this build, as does 3 rax. 1-1-1 builds where terran doesn't get a wall off are good vs this build. Also, if he scouts your stargate and goes viking first on his starport, you will be behind.
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tehemperorer
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2183 Posts
February 10 2011 23:54 GMT
#9
On February 11 2011 08:31 da_head wrote:
are you referrin to three gate star? that's been a pretty common opening for a while..

I've used it since August 2010, either a 2gate or 3gate variant. It will either win the game or force a hard contain + harass that is just unbeatable. There are 3 ways to survive it:
1. you scan and are lucky and find the starport
2. you have played against a player who does this a lot and know it's coming
3. you go pure reactored marines because you planned for a marine/raven/banshee push

The good thing is that it is only as all-in as you allow it to go, and if you can't win with it you delay their expansion for so long that you can tech or mass on just 2 bases to destroy the Terran. Follow up is to get bay/facility for colossus to add to gate/VR on 2 bases.
Masters league <---
Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers.
Mada_Jiang
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Australia236 Posts
February 11 2011 00:00 GMT
#10
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LesPhoques
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada782 Posts
February 11 2011 00:00 GMT
#11
It works well against terran who wall off afaik.
This thread is pretty useless imo, no discussion whatsoever
Mada_Jiang
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Australia236 Posts
February 11 2011 00:22 GMT
#12
--- Nuked ---
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8477 Posts
February 11 2011 00:31 GMT
#13
Vs a wall off: 2 gate stargate with 1 zealot 5 stalkers, robo at 6:30, hit at 7:00-7:10. I've seen MC do this build every time he scouts a wall off and he's won about 10/10 games with this build. I do a similar version that hits faster, cuts less probes, and hits with 4 stalkers instead.

Vs 2 rax expand on close air distance
Ex: vs IMMVP in gisado KOTH on metal
2 gate stargate expand. Gateway units should be more focused on zealot and sentry initially. MC put down a stargate once his probe luckily got up the ramp of the terran and scouted 2 rax. The concept of this build is to get 1 voidray and use it to pin you opponent in his base. This voidray also serves the purposes of forcing more marine heavy than he would like and being a scout. If you're really lucky, you can even force some turrets with just 1 voidray. A very marine heavy army can lose to pure gateway units with good forcefields if he chooses to attack you.. Then, when you finally get collosi, you'll rape his marine heavy army.

Vs 1 rax expand:
Ex: vs jinro on Shakrus in GSL
3 gate stargate with zealot/sentry heavy early on.
At 7:55, all-in with 2 voidray, 3 zealot, 4 stalker, 2 sentry

Vs low ground rax/depot:
Ex: vs MKP on LT in GSL
3 gate stargate. Puts up a pylon on low ground and uses voidray for vision to warp onto high ground. I wouldn't recommend this build. It's very hard to execute and MC kinda got lucky in this game. I think MC was originally planning to depot bust and this was his backup plan.
Moderator
EliteReplay
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Dominican Republic913 Posts
February 11 2011 00:40 GMT
#14
On February 11 2011 09:31 4kmonk wrote:
Vs a wall off: 2 gate stargate with 1 zealot 5 stalkers, robo at 6:30, hit at 7:00-7:10. I've seen MC do this build every time he scouts a wall off and he's won about 10/10 games with this build. I do a similar version that hits faster, cuts less probes, and hits with 4 stalkers instead.

Vs 2 rax expand on close air distance
Ex: vs IMMVP in gisado KOTH on metal
2 gate stargate expand. Gateway units should be more focused on zealot and sentry initially. MC put down a stargate once his probe luckily got up the ramp of the terran and scouted 2 rax. The concept of this build is to get 1 voidray and use it to pin you opponent in his base. This voidray also serves the purposes of forcing more marine heavy than he would like and being a scout. If you're really lucky, you can even force some turrets with just 1 voidray. A very marine heavy army can lose to pure gateway units with good forcefields if he chooses to attack you.. Then, when you finally get collosi, you'll rape his marine heavy army.

Vs 1 rax expand:
Ex: vs jinro on Shakrus in GSL
3 gate stargate with zealot/sentry heavy early on.
At 7:55, all-in with 2 voidray, 3 zealot, 4 stalker, 2 sentry

Vs low ground rax/depot:
Ex: vs MKP on LT in GSL
3 gate stargate. Puts up a pylon on low ground and uses voidray for vision to warp onto high ground. I wouldn't recommend this build. It's very hard to execute and MC kinda got lucky in this game. I think MC was originally planning to depot bust and this was his backup plan.


Impresive analisys man, thanks for this, i understand part of the BO mc use but u are really good at understanding why he choose X BO vs T
if play random i can't call any race imba?
Mada_Jiang
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Australia236 Posts
February 11 2011 01:47 GMT
#15
--- Nuked ---
hitman133
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1425 Posts
February 11 2011 02:23 GMT
#16
It's a good opening again any race, b/c the fact that Protoss can get air unit out earlier than other races, also you can hold the marauders, which is the deadliest against protoss. So yea, i like stargate opening in PvT and PvZ
iamke55
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
United States2806 Posts
February 11 2011 02:32 GMT
#17
Wow, this is the perfect example of a player copying a pro's build without understanding the reasoning behind it. Getting a fast void ray is not something you go into the game planning to do. It's a response to scouting the terran's wall off, which is sometimes seen on maps that are good for proxy gates. The idea is to pick off the two supply depots in the wall and force a response in the form of either turrets which are expensive, or a high marine count which allows you to kite with stalkers. It spots a banshee opening in time to get observers for cloak, and the presence of the stargate means your opponent will think twice about going for a 2 port timing.

If you are looking for a standard blind opening, stick with 2 gate robo.
During practice session, I discovered very good build against zerg. -Bisu[Shield]
Phayze
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada2029 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-11 02:35:30
February 11 2011 02:35 GMT
#18
Nonys 3gate robotics with 5 sentries for fast expo and double forges for fast 3/3 does wonders. I'm sure you're going to start seeing it alot as it really defends any sort of all-in while still has strong expo timing and the ability to pressure a really fast expand from terran.
Proud member of the LGA-1366 Core-i7 4Ghz Club
Widar
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden261 Posts
February 11 2011 02:35 GMT
#19
Can anyone post the specific buildorder?

So I can write it down.

Or perhaps link a thread that has it?
Fake it till you make it
aegishonoris
Profile Joined February 2011
United States4 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-11 02:56:27
February 11 2011 02:52 GMT
#20
On February 11 2011 11:32 iamke55 wrote:
Wow, this is the perfect example of a player copying a pro's build without understanding the

reasoning behind it. Getting a fast void ray is not something you go into the game planning to do.

It's a response to scouting the Terran's wall off, which is sometimes seen on maps that are good for

proxy gates.


In a few Boxer replays I see that he doesn't wall in. Sadly, he lost all of those games!

But to you I ask, what do you, as a Protoss, do when
1. there is no wall off
2. there is a bunker defending
3. Terran goes viking?

If iamke55 is correct and the Void Ray is truly a response to a wall in, then is the early Void Ray not beneficial in the absence of the early wall-in?

Moreover, if you claim one does not go into a game planning to build an early Void Ray, is it because its effectiveness is only found vs. an early wall? As I see it, the early wall allows the Void Ray to charge up, making it deadly to Marines, the only real anti-air that early if Terran forgoes Vikings, hence the value of the early Void Ray.

Is the Void Ray really only a response to the wall?
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