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Hello guys, i have been playing a master lvl protoss, game ended in 45 minute race for bases income and tech
After we had all techs developed, after he used collosus and got countered by my corrptors, he started switching to hts. Then i went into roaches with tunneling claws (+3 attack +0 carapace) then he massed immortals out of 3 robos and made some stalkers. I tried many ways, but i felt that his unit combo is quite superior to anything i could get, especially when he mixed in a few voidrays for broodlords. i was thinking that infestor broodlord corruptor could work, we both had about 2-4 mining bases all time, so gas wasnt a big problem. i know i could not go lings (storm), hydras (storm), roaches, ultras (immortals and stalkers) or enough broodlords+corruptors (stalker and even a bit storming for extra damage on broodlord corruptor), mutas also would be too easy to storm.
My question is, what are your ideas guys to be as cost efficient as possible to this combination, and please dont say things like (omg, u cant let him get so much gas!) because we both expandedaggresively while i was attacking him in many bases at once, dropping, moving through backdoors etc. It just evolved into typical very lategame
So basically, what can you do vs ht/immortal/stalker/voidray army? I'm open not only on army compositions, but also general strategy to win some1 using this army mix. (but i must say i made alot of drops, sniped nexus quite few times, etc)
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If you ever watch Destiny aka (Steven Bonnell ii) play ZvP he plays it a lot like ZvT and goes muta, ling. The mobility of muta, ling and the harassment based play makes it very hard for the protoss to expand to a third with out dropping LOTS of cannons in his main, nat, and 3rd if he ever wanted to push out.
The job of muta ling is to NOT let the protoss expand to a third, if a protoss does get a third running with gas' its pretty much GG.
I'm not a zerg player myself but you should check out his stream when he does practice matches against rootMinigun.
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I think your assumption of not going ling and hydra is the problem here. While storm does damage to them very well, you should have really good creep spread at that point in the game (You can also make additional OL and bring them to battle). If he foregoes colossi entirely, then you have the range advantage with brood lords. Attack from multiple angles with ling, roach, hydra, and brood lords (throw in a few corrupters if you want for voids, but correct positioning with hydra should be sufficient) should provide a very advantagous situation.
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cost effective tatics to use are +2 baneling drop to slow down his advantages and keep him on his toes and paranoid about watching his econ. making mid game pushes and drops to slow down his gas rate is another area to look at since he is so reliant on gas. Attempting to slow down the 3rd too.
Late game is very difficult so any cost effective advantages made in the mid can stack up and let you overwhelm him.
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Z can't really fight cost efficiently vs any protoss 200/200 ball. Split the ball by attacking two places at once and use your quicker reinforcements to overrun him.
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Zerglings are great against this unit composition, but the problem are the psi-storms.
What I do is I send in my roaches to fight while my speedlings run around the back. Once his high templar have wasted all of their storms on my roaches, I send my lings to flank him in the back.
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WOW this is actually breath-taking ...
1.Zerglings - NO. A few archons will melt them, no matter how many lings you can get.
2.Roachs/Ultras, basically any armor based - NO. Obviously.
3.Hydras - NO. Storm
4.Infestors - not enough DMG
5.Broods - NO, cuz of voids.
Only reasonable solution seems massive amounts of Mutas (30-40+). Also mix in a lot of zerglings to absorb stalker DMG for a short time, so you can get a few extra shots. Maybe even some banelings (20-30) to wipe out the HT and damage the stalkers.
Haven't tried it. so I have no idea how it works.
Edit: I just noticed your comment about storming the mutas, but with a good muta control, you can dodge the storms pretty effectively, still hard though.
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On February 04 2011 01:12 Omni17 wrote:
Zerglings are great against this unit composition, but the problem are the psi-storms.
What I do is I send in my roaches to fight while my speedlings run around the back. Once his high templar have wasted all of their storms on my roaches, I send my lings to flank him in the back.
I don't see why he will waste his storms on the roachs, when he has Voids, Immortals and Stalkers - the ultimate combo VS any roach based army.
+3 attack +0 carapace
I hope these were not your upgrades late game, just for the mentioned battle Otherwise, this is one of your main problems. Can you imaging immortal with +3 attack (65 DMG), what can it do ... its f*** awesome
BTW people, he is asking how to stop the army late game, not how to prevent it in midgame, or some other aspect of the game. Please read before writing.
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HT/immortal/stalker/void ray is very gas-intensive, therefore it is a lategame army. Because of that, what you do in the early-game & mid-game affects how well you can do in the late-game.
Make sure to pressure them taking their 3rd. If protoss gets a free 3rd they can max out on almost any army they want.
Generally upgraded roaches keeps protoss from just doing whatever they want in the mid-game, and forces some kind of response. A mass of +1 tunneling speedroaches will stop almost any gateway army, thus protoss has to get immortals or void rays to deal with it. If they get immortals with not a lot of sentries, roach/ling is good. If they do get a lot of sentries, roach/hydra is good.
Late-game it obviously depends on how many of each units he has. For one, don't get hydras, they aren't good against any army that has psionic storm. Corruptors are probably the best unit to fight void rays that are with an army of stalkers and/or sentries. If he has a ton of immortals, you probably want to go mutas. If he has a ton of void rays, you want to make lots of corruptors. If it's mostly stalker with just a few of the other tech units, then roach/ling + enough corruptors to take down void rays is a good army to have. If he skimps on the stalkers and/or , broodlords are good.
You should really show a replay, a lot of mistakes can happen in a 45-minute game.
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On February 04 2011 00:56 Crescend1 wrote:Hello guys, i have been playing a master lvl protoss, game ended in 45 minute race for bases income and tech After we had all techs developed, after he used collosus and got countered by my corrptors, he started switching to hts. Then i went into roaches with tunneling claws (+3 attack +0 carapace) then he massed immortals out of 3 robos and made some stalkers. I tried many ways, but i felt that his unit combo is quite superior to anything i could get, especially when he mixed in a few voidrays for broodlords. i was thinking that infestor broodlord corruptor could work, we both had about 2-4 mining bases all time, so gas wasnt a big problem. i know i could not go lings (storm), hydras (storm), roaches, ultras (immortals and stalkers) or enough broodlords+corruptors (stalker and even a bit storming for extra damage on broodlord corruptor), mutas also would be too easy to storm. My question is, what are your ideas guys to be as cost efficient as possible to this combination, and please dont say things like (omg, u cant let him get so much gas!) because we both expandedaggresively while i was attacking him in many bases at once, dropping, moving through backdoors etc. It just evolved into typical very lategame So basically, what can you do vs ht/immortal/stalker/voidray army? I'm open not only on army compositions, but also general strategy to win some1 using this army mix. (but i must say i made alot of drops, sniped nexus quite few times, etc)
Speedlings are actually fine vs storm as when storm hits friendly targets it does extra damage to them and lings are literally on top of your units so you arent exactly going to storm them. Your best bet short of broodlords and just fighting in good positions is to use roach/ling/hydra with your first army and reinforce with all roaches, your goal is to kill their immortals in the first attack. When you reinforce you can do it with just roach/ling. Void rays are almost negligible unless they really have a fuckton.
As far as overall strategy... besides not letting them get to that army in the first place... you have the option of abusing that armies immobility. There are no speedrays anymore, HTs are slow, immortals are slow. Hitting with medium size forces or even just multiple speedling groups in a co uple places at once would work well and you should be able to find holes especially when you guys are on so many bases.
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On February 04 2011 01:03 Finite wrote:
If you ever watch Destiny aka (Steven Bonnell ii) play ZvP he plays it a lot like ZvT and goes muta, ling.
Wait wait explain... so you're saying the zerg player gets mutas... AND lings? I don't know if I've ever seen a zerg do this, do you have any replays to share?
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I should also mention that you must get armor against void rays. It makes a huge difference.
And to add to above poster's point, you should also be able to dictate how you engage his army, because of his immobility. When you finally decide to engage, you should always have him out of formation relative to how your army is positioned (brood lords would make this even more lop-sided).
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About destiny, yes, he goes muta ling vs toss most of time. But although it has advantages, i dont feel its really good army when u engage his death ball. It might be viable, but i just think it wont be good enough, especially vs storms (when its lategame, toss has quite much energy on templars, so even while avoiding storms u will fast have only red hp mutas that u cant really use). In midgame it might work if toss lets u get it of course.
Thx about all posts, i agree on most of them, liked alot baneling idea (i too thought it might be good option). I made mistake that i let get his 3rd, cause i thought he will take another base, and next moment he started walling center of map with some gates+army, so it was my first big mistake, but its just one time, i always try to deny 3rd. Also i love idea of going hydra roach, and sniping immortals, and then reinforce with roaches.
I'm aware i made other key mistakes, but it was quite chaotic game and not everything was going as perfect as i would wish
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Why is everybody recomending corruptors vs void? Corruptors lose that fight hard. Corruptors > Phoenix , carrier, colossus... Muta is your best air to air option vs voids, since they take no bonus damage from voids. Broodlord+muta should Beat that army as long as you get your mutas ontop of the voids and ht asaP to negate storm
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Ive had crazy difficulty with these combos too. I will post replays when I get home.
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fungal+baneling drops vs this army is the key late game.
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I think baneling drops would really help. too bad i can't for the life of me do them.
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Master Protoss here, I played a 45 minute game against zerg and won it yesterday with a slightly different composition. At the start I knew I wanted to macro, so I opened with 2gate stargate with 4 phoenixes at around 7:30 to harass while I expanded. This gives me the stargate for later use, and after expansion I put down double forge and was able to do gateway army + VR while I tech to high templar.
The latest thing I got, after VR and HT were the Immortals without ever getting colossus. This unit mix has to be done on at least 2 mining bases with 3 base gas, but it is really really strong. The opponent had hydra/roach with a few lings, but at no point were they able to really attack because of forcefield and storm with VR chase. Once the storm hits, you move your units or they die, but VRs latch on and you end up losing them anyway because you are low on health and if you stop, more storms hit. I had thought about this unit comp for a while and was able to execute it fairly well. The composition is just so powerful that Zerg needs to match it with a comp of their own that is more than just 2-3 types of units. If zerg doesn't go on the offensive before I do, they have to react to drops and the deathball and are unable to be proactively doing damage to income, like speedling runbys or flanking, and this eventually leads to a loss because of multiple prong attacks with upgraded zealots and a roving deathball of VR/Immortal/HT. At the end of the game I ended up with HT/Immortal/Stalker, because after a point the VRs were too gas heavy and were becoming redundant, doing the same job that the HT/Immortal were doing. I realized that the composition, without the VRs, was less mobile and less threatening (has to follow ground attack paths) without them but was able to do the job just as well.
My suggestions against this would be:
-go on the offensive before this gets rolling, and don't be put in a reactive position.
-hydra/roach are bad alone against this because 1 storm allows stalkers to 1 shot hydras and immortals to 1 shot roaches, and if VRs are there, they clean up anything with their .6 attack speed. If you were to add muta, you would put yourself out of a reactionary stance and be able to take advantage of the lulls in the protoss's play with the mutas. You would probably force phoenix as well since muta can snipe high templars, unless they are willing to storm themselves to get the muta ball that is on top of them
-Ling/Roach/Muta would handle this composition. It requires big macro, but you are countering this kind of deathball well: ling for immortal, roach for zeal/stalker/0 shield immortal, and muta for HT and leftovers. Even if you lose the ground fight, as long as you kill all the stalkers your mutas force another stalemate, and can pick off high templars that flee. The HTs are the target because their AOE makes your numbers irrelevant: 1 storm and a single hit from the front line zealots finish the zerglings (20 + 16-22 dmg (depends on ground upgrades) per second) leaving the stalkers to finish the mutas if you go pure muta/ling. That is why you need roaches as well.
It's a strong unit combo, but only because it is rarely faced. I'm sure Master Zerg players can come up with better counters than the ones I've described, so I will leave that to them for now. In closing, here is what the combo you faced does:
-Kills muta/ling
-Kills roach/hydra
-Kills zerg before mass tier3
So you see it counters the popular Zerg unit compositions of today. That is why it is powerful!
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On February 04 2011 04:34 Penatronic wrote:
Why is everybody recomending corruptors vs void? Corruptors lose that fight hard. Corruptors > Phoenix , carrier, colossus... Muta is your best air to air option vs voids, since they take no bonus damage from voids. Broodlord+muta should Beat that army as long as you get your mutas ontop of the voids and ht asaP to negate storm
Against pure voids, yes mutas are better. However, against a mixed army that includes sentries for GS, and colossus, corruptors are all-around better, they also don't require insane amounts of gas to be effective, unlike mutas. Roach/Hydra -> corruptor transition is much easier than roach/hydra -> muta transition, this is why most zerg who use muta use it as their first tech choice and build up a giant cloud of 20-30 muta throughout the mid-game.
Another thing to take into consideration is that a protoss who has void rays can easily start producing phoenix if they see mutas. Muta are good against void rays, but corruptors are good against both phoenix AND void rays
Getting corruptors allows you to make roaches + roach upgrades during the mid-game, this is important when playing against protoss.
edit: now if by chance protoss skimps on stalker/sentries and goes heavy on immortal/colossus, then yes I could see roach/muta being very effective, however this rarely happens, at least in my experience and also in the tournament replays I see.
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Hi, Hawk here (#15 NA server)
Hydra roach hard counters this play style, the immortal gateway unit ball really excels at defending but is piss poor when trying to take the offensive as zerg won't get trapped by forcefields (if he's defending) and can burrow to regenerate stormed roaches.
When we take this into account the proper counter for Zerg in fighting this unit composition by protoss is to take a quick 3rd and 4th then just defend until you can max to remax a fight with the protoss army it works quite well and is a hard counter to this style of play.
Here is one of my replays highlighting play designed to beat this unit composition by Protoss
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134474-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
Hope you guys enjoy, Zerg players good luck out there.
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Just because the Protoss player has Templar doesn't mean that you can't use Hydralisks, just that you can't a-move with them and forget about them. Storm only has a range of 6, so Templar can't Storm all your Hydras from behind the Protoss army. Send a ling or two to check his Templar positioning right before you engage. If his templar are in the front, move up with just your Roaches and snipe them, then move in with Hydralisks and/or Zerglings. If his Templar are in the back, just engage. If he storms your roaches, move out of the storms or soak them, your choice. Probably better to move back. If he tries to storm your Hydras, just back up a bit (about 1 screen, I'd say). If he pursues, great, he's now engaging without Templar support, because Templar are slow. If he doesn't follow, burrow your Roaches to heal them, then repeat. He'll be losing slowly to attrition.
Alternatively, try either Baneling bombs or a small flock of mutas to do Templar sniping. Hell, if the Templar lag behind his army enough, you can run in with lings to pick them off.
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On February 04 2011 06:20 Kyadytim wrote:
Just because the Protoss player has Templar doesn't mean that you can't use Hydralisks, just that you can't a-move with them and forget about them. Storm only has a range of 6, so Templar can't Storm all your Hydras from behind the Protoss army. Send a ling or two to check his Templar positioning right before you engage. If his templar are in the front, move up with just your Roaches and snipe them, then move in with Hydralisks and/or Zerglings. If his Templar are in the back, just engage. If he storms your roaches, move out of the storms or soak them, your choice. Probably better to move back. If he tries to storm your Hydras, just back up a bit (about 1 screen, I'd say). If he pursues, great, he's now engaging without Templar support, because Templar are slow. If he doesn't follow, burrow your Roaches to heal them, then repeat. He'll be losing slowly to attrition.
Alternatively, try either Baneling bombs or a small flock of mutas to do Templar sniping. Hell, if the Templar lag behind his army enough, you can run in with lings to pick them off.
Templar directly counter hydralisks, in fact thats the unit most affected by HT because even speedlings can dodge the storm to some extent. The gateway army doesn't come without a few sentries who can FF your army and have the immortal/HT clean up shop. That's how you lose about 70 food in 8 seconds.
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funny story.. used lings to attack 5 templars lagging behind..guy panics and storms his own templar lol. (masters zerg) if you have too much trouble. try watching catz or sheth. theyre hyper aggressive by sniping expansions etc. meaning you stay in the mid game compostion longer.
use mobility to your advantage..you cant just A move with zerg anymore (Nydus.drops.banelings.harass.corruption) its really annoying using 2 overseers corrupting archives ^^
also cool tip: 4 hydras in back of mineral line clean up probes sooooo fast (cons: could not be effcient. lose 200 gas
pros: split his army.counter at expansions. snipe lagginf units)
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This protoss army composition is REALLY, REALLY strong. In fact, Huk has defeated players like Nestea using this composition. But here's some advice for the Zerg:
- Being cost effective is going to be really crucial. You're never going to be as cost effective as the Protoss army, but if you can reduce the cost efficiency advantage from say, +60%, to +25%, and take 1 or 2 more expansions, you have a good shot at winning.
- The bulk of your army is going to be roaches, simply because of their durability and speed. Even though immortals destroy roaches at equal supply, at equal cost, the battle is much closer. You need to keep the bulk of your roaches alive, just like your opponent needs to keep the bulk of his stalkers alive.
- Your roaches should be supported by zerglings and mutalisks. Zerglings are quite expendable, and are strong against stalkers and immortals. This forces the Protoss to either get more zealots, which your roaches can snipe easily, and/or use psi storms on the zerglings. Drawing the storms away from your roaches and mutalisks allows them to deal a lot of damage without taking too much damage.
- Immortals + high templars will kill your roaches quickly if you aren't careful. Brood lords can force your opponent to replace his immortals and high templars with stalkers, which weakens the overall strength of his army.
- Spread your creep and put up a lot of spine crawlers. Make that a TON of spine crawlers. Use your mobility advantage to do hit and run attacks on his economy, then pull back so he's forced to engage near your crawlers.
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Yeah, your just trying to unit counter his army, like wtf. Obviously if you feel like you can't engage his army then don't make mutas harass his probes so he is pinned, get your roaches in his base via tunneling claws and take out a robo if you have such good wep upgrades. Did you use queens with your army to transfuse? Did you use burrow/ unburrow micro?
Seriously, I see a lack of thinking right here, which isn't a bad thing, but Its not something you just make unit X to deal with.
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Original beast.
Please don't make a "I'm so pro, omg why u just attack move and hope to win" pose I was using drops at mutliple expos, borrowing roaches everywhere i could when he had no detection, sniping expos etc. So please dont comment so 1 sided. I was sniping his expos, he wa sniping mine. we had forces very much split, everytwhere voids, corruptors, broodlord, immo/hts etc. It was much like chaos, cause we had like 2-4 battles all across the map I know how i can deal with such things, but i prefered to ask cause maybe some1 has better method, like sniping lagging templars, etc. i dropped alot of roaches/hydras on mineral line too;) Gl mate
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I think the only way to prevent this from happening would be harrasing/rushing before the lategame army finishes from toss. I always rush with 10-12 roaches and i usually even out or win when i rush right away after the last roach finish.
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That is a very powerful combo as well as a lategame combo considering thats 3 tech paths. You'll have to dish out the most cost effective and powerful unit combo from the zerg arsenal.
If you have like 10 broodlords + half roach half hydra army and engage in an open area. It'll be a battle of micro of taking voidrays down while microing the hydras around to avoid storms, and also keeping broodlords at maximum firing distance (9.5, pretty long). Roaches and broodlord combined fire should be able to take on the ground army. If you can flank thats even better. Now if the toss included a mothership in the combo you have no choice but to base trade.
And the only reason Nestea lost to Huk is because Ultras AI is **** and Ultras in general blow.
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Something I have been trying in lategame ZvP recently is Hydra/Broodlord/Ling. Against most ground armies this does amazingly well so long as you are able to micro the hydras against any voids/storms in the area, and if you use the broods to pick off fragile but powerful targets (HTs and Colo's). The lings sometimes bait some storms, but often are just there to soak hits from the stalkers/immos/colossi while the hydras and lords do their work.
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EPT
