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Hi TLers,
I've recently been trying to get a better sense of how to shift unit production/strategy as I expand into the game, and I was wondering if there is a general guideline on how many unit-producing structures you can support on each base while not cutting probes.
I ask this because I really want to get more comfortable at tech-switching or easily being able to change my unit composition while still having some sense of what I can actually support given my economy. When I get a new base, I feel lost as to what I can support on it.
I would really appreciate if people with a strong sense of Protoss macro game (i.e. are comfortable playing at a high level into 4-base/5-base play against an opponent) responded.
For example, as far as I understand:
SUPPORTABLE ON 1 BASE
3 Gate (arguably 4 gate, but please, save that discussion for another thread)
2 Gate Robo
2 Gate Stargate
2 Stargate
What I'm wondering is, for every expansion that I take, can I automatically build any combination of the above? Like if I'm in a PvZ with 3 gates cranking, can I automatically build 2 more gates and a Stargate at my expansion (and once saturation is reasonably up) fully produce with 5 Gates and 1 Stargate? (ALSO: Is there some other combo of producing structures I'm not thinking bout here?)
So, is this an economically reasonable building pattern?
1 Base: 3 Gate
With Expo: 5 Gate, 1 Robo
With 3 Base: 7 Gate, 1 Robo, 1 Stargate
or...
1 Base: 2 Gate Robo
With Expo: 2 Gate, Robo, 2 Stargate
With 3 Base: 5 Gate, Robo, 2 Stargate
Is this how Macro Protoss think of the game? What is the proper thought process when you take an expansion (ignoring questions of unit composition, again, just as far as 'what can I afford')
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Oh yes, and obviously, the answer is "it depends" in some cases, but I was thinking about these reasons:
CONSIDERATIONS:
- More expensive units: If I'm leaning more heavily into Colossi/Void Rays/Carriers, obviously each Robo/Stargate becomes much more expensive to support.
- Chronoboosts: If I'm on my 4th base, assuming my macro is such that I'm constantly chronoboosting, should I build fewer and fewer unit-producing structures with every base that I take?
- Upgrades: If you're upgrading ground/air simultaneously, etc. it's a constant resource sink
- Worker Limit: You can only really have 3 bases fully saturated at a time
- Cannons: Every base you build has progressively more cannons built around it for defense, since your DeathBall army is pretty immobile
- And of course, everything goes out the window at 200/200
- At some point you reach ~75 workers, and you can stop probe production, giving you more money (but really not much more, like ~200 mins/minute?)
...
Is this how Macro Protoss think of the game?
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imo it doenst rly work that way, its sort of a feeling that you have to develop. For example i can have 3 gate and a robo on 1 base, but also collosus and 3 gates on 1 base. the fact that you can't support it as in not producing out of everything 100% of the time isnt that relevant. if you see a terran going 1 base all in you dont want to expand to get your collosus out but you want to stay on one base and crank out 2 collosus eventho you already have 3 gates up, thats not a bad thing so sticking to much to the philosophy what you could support on 1 base isnt always that good. Aswell on 2 base i can have my robo + bay and a starport and 4-5 gates and a twilight counsil and a forge for upgrades, not that i will produce out of everything 100% of the time but all the things are good to have if you go for a 2 base timing attack with phoenix and collos vs terran, or if you want to get 2-3 collosus vs zerg and meanwhile start teching to high templars while you get a 3rd base so you can go ht immortal+more gateway units when your 3rd is up.
altho if you DO want to make some statements i think its something like this
1 base
3 gates
2 techbuildings
2 base
6 gates
4 tech buildings (means robo/forge/twilight counsil/stargate)
3rd base
10 gates
4 techbuildings, but if you dont want to have a gateway army you rather have for example 2 stargates and 2 robos and still get upgrades so that makes 6 tech buildings. and then you stay on like 5 gates max.
after that just build as much so youc an keep replenishing your army asap and throw down cannons at all ofyour expo's , sometimes im on 12 gates and 2 robo 2 stargates not producing 100% out of them (at 4+ base) but as soon as your units die you can get back to 200/200 midfight.
oh well maybe someone has a satisfing awnser that helps you abit more
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I think your general framework is good. Assume 3 gates or 2 gates and a tech building per base.
The biggest thing to keep in mind is to not let your gateway numbers slack too much when going for robo or stargate play. So, never add a nexus and just 2 stargates, unless you have GOOD scouting or a lead. Gateways serve to buffer your tech units
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wait... u mean there is strategy beyond 4 gate... O.o
lol JK. I think that 3 gates/base is a very reasonable conclusion to arrive to. Tech buildings, on the other hand, complicate things.
If you are producing strictly colossus, then 1 robo bay with chronoboost directed at it will work well with 2 bases, while a third base will allow for 2 bays. Making a mix of colossus/immortal can be done with 2 bays no chronoboost (on 2 bases). This goes on and on if you include templars and stargates and the more I think about it the more varied the mixes are, especially if chronoboost is taken into account.
When all is said and done, getting money as protoss is a science but knowing how to spend it is an art.
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For each base have:
3 or 4 Gateways per base. 4 per base for sure if your going down the templar path.
1 Robo. In all, you shouldn't have to build more than 2 robos per game
With stargates, I dont feel the need for them most games unless I'm dealing with some annoying numbers of mutas (or corruptors). Even if I am, I would have at least an expansion at that point in which 2 stargates will be sufficient to pump phoenix to a critical point.
With gateway units, you realise that stalkers are very expensive and more often than not, pumping a batch of stalkers sets you back in gas
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Don't be efficient with unit production as a Protoss player.
If he's making lings, are you going to make 3 sentries because you havd 200/300 in the bank? No, make 2 zealots. Sure, you have a gas build-up, but that's the unit you need.
I've tried being efficient but this is not always ideal. Having extra warpgates to refil your army faster is always a bonus.
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Canada13389 Posts
Its a feel thing basically you need to do the following and not rely on a set of numbers:
1) a plan
2) scouting ability
3) Follow - through
For example: in PvZ I do a 3 gate expand and start getting upgrades after I get my 2nd base up. My 2 base play looks like this:
4 gateways, 1 robo, 1 forge upgrading (at 100% atk, 50% armour = Twilight council)
- My plan is as follows: I will make an observer to help scout and kill creep tumours, I have 4 gateways to produce units to poke and defend, I get upgrades to make my units more cost efficient.
When scouting and poking if I see a lot of lings, I research blink for my stalkers while continuing my upgrades and I put down two more gateways. I focus on trying to keep pressure on the Zerg while also getting a number of zealots to deal with lings and a strong stalker force. I spend additional minerals on a cannon or two at my natural the moment my suspicion of mutalisks is confirmed. I follow a similar plan when I scout roaches supporting the lings. The difference being that I make a few immortals and then focus on using the gateways primarily after the fact. I expand when I feel safe to do so.
When scouting if I see hydras and roaches I tech to collossus and use two robotics facilities to get a few out (3 or 4) and then expand. I always continue my upgrades but I put off getting blink right away since it is only important with a colossus army when I need to kill corrupters.
In these situations I have 2 main branches of thought to be followed and in one case my base looks like this:
(ling/muta)
- 6 warpgates
- 1 forge
- 1 robo (not always being used)
- 1 twilight council
(roach/hydra)
- 4 warpgates
- 2 robo
- 1 forge
- 1 twilight council
- 1 robotics support bay
What is important to note is that I am not focusing on how much of each I have but that I have what I need to accomplish my goals. When I take my third I always create additional warpgates as I get close to max so that I can reproduce an army to help defend and I usually have 8 warpgates once I get maxed and have 3 + mining bases.
I guess you can say I have 2 gates 1 robo each base, or 4 gates each base but sometimes you need to create different structures to transition at different times. Example 1 I COULD support 8 gates but I want 6 because I need to upgrade and sure I could make from the robo but I don't unless I see roach corrupter.
The point is to have an idea and basic plan and potential routes you can take to address the more common changes in enemy play you might see.
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My general guide is that each fully saturated base can support production constantly from 4 gateways leaving enough left over for expansions when appropriate and occasional tech structures. Robotics Facilities and Stargates I count as being worth 2 gateways regardless of what I'm building out of them (Immortals and Phoenix are cheaper than Colossi and Void Rays respectively but they also build faster so overall your resource usage is roughly the same).
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EPT
